Re: blood test and stopping thyroid

[Guest guest]

The only people I have heard talk about patients being 'addicted' to thyroxine are members of the BTA when giving 'evidence' at Dr Skinner's hearing at the GMC when they suggested that some patients take thyroxine just because they get a "high" on it. Can you remember the exact wording Bob. I think both Dr Prentice and Dr Lynn suggested this, which came out as completely ludicrous.

Sheila

I'm not Sheila, but I think you can be psychologically addicted to darn near anything. I don't think you can be physiologically addicted to T4, but as I posted before I'm no expert...Luck,>> Posted by: "chrischids" no_reply > <mailto:no_reply ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stopping%20thyroid>> chrischids <chrischids>>>> Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:52 am (PDT)>> Hi Sheila>> On reading what you have just written, something really frightening> has just dawned on me and that is that I could be actually ADDICTED> to thyroxine and maybe it is withdrawal symptoms I get if I dont> take it such as waking up with anxiety, headache, unable to co-> ordinate properly etc etc. I've never thought it as a drug just a> hormone and I know I've said it before but I never realised just how> dependant I am on it. Is there any way an addiction can be possible,> do we know if thyroxine is addictive. I take nothing else at all.>> Chris

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[Guest guest]

Yeah; I know that. That means that the next morning after missing a

dose you should have a LOT of T4 still in your system; I would venture a

guess probably down 10% or so from the day before. I don't think most

of us could possibly tell the difference. That's why I said it was

strange. But I can't completely discount it, as I have seen very

strange medical responses in myself. I've had my doctor tell me,

" ...That CAN'T happen... " if reference to something that happened over

and over. Eventually, I convinced him...

..

..

>

> Posted by: " sheilaturner " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stopp\

ing%20thyroid>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

>

> Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:54 pm (PDT)

>

> Hi - it takes up to 6 weeks for thyroxine to get completely out

> of your system, so you can still chug along for a fair old time with

> just a little T4.

>

> Sheila

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know how easy it would be to tell a psychological addiction from

a physiological one. In the latter case you have a physical response

that tells you that you need the medication, while in the former case

your body generates some symptom that tells you that you need it. I

think...

In any event, I suspect there's a psychological element involved in a

LOT of our medications that we seldom if ever suspect. For example: I

read recently of a group of males who were given a placebo but told it

was chemo. 30% of them lost their hair...

..

..

>

> Posted by: " chrischids " no_reply

>

<mailto:no_reply ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stoppin\

g%20thyroid>

> chrischids <chrischids>

>

>

> Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:35 pm (PDT)

>

> Hi

>

> I agree, I dont in any way feel phychologically addicted to it at

> all, if my body didnt need it I would have no problem with

> forgetting it all together and not taking it.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

I think there was mention of something along those lines, it may have

been in relation to T3, since that certainly would cause an elevated

mood after years of depression due to (untreated) low T3.

The context in which it was mentioned ~ I seem to recall, was in the

'defensive and evasive' mode of one of the witnesses, as you indicate.

? 'Addictive' in the sense of a familiar activity that would be

difficult to stop if it provided serious benefits, alternative to

permanent depression.

One might consider that the 'high' that you get from running or from

other physically demanding work/sport would come into this category.

That which the medical profession is supposed to be championing ~

don't tell Lord Darzi.

best wishes

Bob

> The only people I have heard talk about patients being 'addicted' to

thyroxine are members of the BTA when giving 'evidence'

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

>

> Staying off T4 for a week will not make much difference to how a person

> felt because there is still a good amount of T4 in the system. ...

Have you ever tried that? Two days without meds made me quite ill. Since

the half life of T4 is about a week, that means your SUPPLY of T3 is cut

in half. It is actually cut by more, because the endocrine system goes

into panic mode to conserve the T4 supply. The amount of T3 needed to

maintain a euthyroid state is rather delicate. Cutting the supply in

half makes a dramatic change in how you feel. Even cutting it by a few

percent can make you ill.

As you say, we are even more sensitive to a cutoff in T3.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

You wrote:

> ... Is there any way an addiction can be possible,

> do we know if thyroxine is addictive. I take nothing else at all.

I suspect you are addicted to air. Just try holding your breath and

watch those withdrawal symptoms. You are also addicted to food and water.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

,

With T3, it is even more of an issue.

You wrote:

>

> BTW, I had thought that the half life of T3 was about 24 hours, but I

> recently saw a quote of 8 hours. What's the scoop?

I suspect the 8 hours was just an error, although the half life does

vary with thyroid status. The 24 hour average is for the euthyroid

condition. It lasts a bit longer if you are hypoT and shorter if hyperT.

However, 8 hours is just out of range completely, unless you are canine.

I have to give my dog 400 mcg twice a day. That is actually a low dose

for a dog.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

That is not how it works. Conversion to T3 is pretty close to the serum

concentration of T4. As said, half of the T4 is gone in a week. So

that means the supply of T3 is cut in half in the same period. Even a

day or two decreases the supply of T3 enough to make someone quite ill.

The persistence of " some " T4 does nothing to mitigate the extreme drop

in T3 supply.

Chuck

You wrote:

>

>

> Hi - it takes up to 6 weeks for thyroxine to get completely out of

> your system, so you can still chug along for a fair old time with just a

> little T4.

[Guest guest]

I gather this was a clinic trial . Do you have a reference to this. This is really interesting.

Sheila

In any event, I suspect there's a psychological element involved in a LOT of our medications that we seldom if ever suspect. For example: I read recently of a group of males who were given a placebo but told it was chemo. 30% of them lost their hair.....>> Posted by: "chrischids" no_reply > <mailto:no_reply ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stopping%20thyroid>> chrischids <chrischids>>>> Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:35 pm (PDT)>> Hi >> I agree, I dont in any way feel phychologically addicted to it at> all, if my body didnt need it I would have no problem with> forgetting it all together and not taking it.>> Chris

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[Guest guest]

Sheila,You wrote:> > Staying off T4 for a week will not make much difference to how a person > felt because there is still a good amount of T4 in the system. ...Have you ever tried that? Two days without meds made me quite ill. Since the half life of T4 is about a week, that means your SUPPLY of T3 is cut in half. It is actually cut by more, because the endocrine system goes into panic mode to conserve the T4 supply. The amount of T3 needed to maintain a euthyroid state is rather delicate. Cutting the supply in half makes a dramatic change in how you feel. Even cutting it by a few percent can make you ill.As you say, we are even more sensitive to a cutoff in T3.Chuck

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[Guest guest]

For those people who are hypothyroid and use either synthetic or natural T3 therapy, it is recommended they split their dose of T3 throughout the day because if they take it in the morning before breakfast, many find that by 2.00p..m./3.00p.m. they experience a 'slump' in energy because the T3 in their body is insufficient at that time.

Sheila

I suspect the 8 hours was just an error, although the half life does vary with thyroid status. The 24 hour average is for the euthyroid condition. It lasts a bit longer if you are hypoT and shorter if hyperT. However, 8 hours is just out of range completely, unless you are canine. I have to give my dog 400 mcg twice a day. That is actually a low dose for a dog.Chuck

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[Guest guest]

Dr Lynn - Thyroid Surgeon, giving evidence at Dr Skinner's GMC Hearing said, in his evidence (Transcript - 9th July 2007 - pp17 - 18 (Day 6))

"T3 has a short half life, maybe about 8 hours, is rapidly absorbed and should be given - - synthetic T3 - - 3 times a day. So there is no logic, in my view, of just giving a single dose of T3 with T4 because it is not going to have an effect throughout the day. You are just going to have an effect for a couple of hours."

Sheila

> > BTW, I had thought that the half life of T3 was about 24 hours, but I> recently saw a quote of 8 hours. What's the scoop?

..

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[Guest guest]

Well chuck like I have said I have been off my T4 for 20 days and Sheila had a 21 day break from hers some time ago, very true we are all different and I have not missed mine, but saying that the need to stop mine was essential because I feel I was overloaded with the stuff and having compromised adrenals didnt help, I am now on HC for my adrenals and am seeing light at the end of a 2 yr tunnel, will restart my T4 next week and hopefully my adrenals will be in a better condition to accept it. I always stop my T4 before a blood test for 48hrs and will continue to> > Staying off T4 for a week will not make much difference to how a person > felt because there is still a good amount of T4 in the system. ...Chuck

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[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

>

> Yes, I have tried it. It is well documented as I kept a daily diary of

> what actually happened to me, though I will not go into the reason for

> doing that experiment at the time. It was an experiment that was

> necessary and I actually stayed off thyroxine for 21 days feeling

> extremely well, though about day 18, I did start to get back some

> symptoms. I had to start taking T4 again on day 22. I am now on 3

> grains of Armour and 25 mcgs T4 and I am VERY well....

How much were you taking THEN?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Okay; you've really thrown me for a loop here. I had assumed that with

a half life of a week that T4 would probably not be reduced in one day

much more than 10% or maybe 15% [a guess] by the morning after the day

in which a dose was taken. I had further assumed that with 90% of your

normal T4 left it would continue to produce about 90% of the T3 needed.

Your post indicates I'm out in left field [again]. Could you please

explains what actually happens? Is most [or a lot] of the T3 reduction

due to the panic mode you mention? What does the reduction curve of

serum level T4 look like; is in not linear?

Thanks,

> Have you ever tried that? Two days without meds made me quite ill. Since

> the half life of T4 is about a week, that means your SUPPLY of T3 is cut

> in half. It is actually cut by more, because the endocrine system goes

> into panic mode to conserve the T4 supply. The amount of T3 needed to

> maintain a euthyroid state is rather delicate. Cutting the supply in

> half makes a dramatic change in how you feel. Even cutting it by a few

> percent can make you ill.

>

> As you say, we are even more sensitive to a cutoff in T3.

>

> Chuck

[Guest guest]

That's the only time I think I've seen 8 hours mentioned, so I noticed

it. I've always heard or read a day, or 24 hours...

Thanks,

> > BTW, I had thought that the half life of T3 was about 24 hours, but I

> > recently saw a quote of 8 hours. What's the scoop?

>

> I suspect the 8 hours was just an error, although the half life does

> vary with thyroid status. The 24 hour average is for the euthyroid

> condition.

[Guest guest]

Which brings up the matter of how different we are. Some people stop T4

and report they feel fine weeks later. I personally have never had any

specific symptoms in the way I feel, either before or after starting

Synthroid. I suspect [but don't know] that I probably wouldn't notice a

difference for quite a while if I stopped T4, but of course that is just

a guess.

Do you know if the way you respond to stopping T4 is fairly typical of

the average patient?

> Posted by: " Chuck B " gumboyaya@...

>

<mailto:gumboyaya@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stopping%20thy\

roid>

> gumbo482001 <gumbo482001>

>

>

> Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:23 am (PDT)

>

> Sheila,

>

> That is not how it works. Conversion to T3 is pretty close to the serum

> concentration of T4. As said, half of the T4 is gone in a week. So

> that means the supply of T3 is cut in half in the same period. Even a

> day or two decreases the supply of T3 enough to make someone quite ill.

> The persistence of " some " T4 does nothing to mitigate the extreme drop

> in T3 supply.

>

> Chuck

>

> You wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi - it takes up to 6 weeks for thyroxine to get completely

> out of

> > your system, so you can still chug along for a fair old time with

> just a

> > little T4.

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

You wrote:

>

>

> For those people who are hypothyroid and use either synthetic or

> natural T3 therapy, it is recommended they split their dose of T3

> throughout the day because if they take it in the morning before

> breakfast, many find that by 2.00p..m./3.00p.m. they experience a

> 'slump' in energy because the T3 in their body is insufficient at that

> time.

I used to recommend that too, but I have since run into people that

don't split the T3 and still don't experience a slump. I have seen

speculation that the effect of T3 at the cellular level persists long

after the T3 level has dropped in the blood, perhaps because it turns on

genes that continue after the trigger event. If this is correct, then

one dose a day may be effective, and the 24 hour half life is less

relevant, because the effects are smoothed out. YMMV.

BTW, 's paper also mentions an 8-hour half life for T3. I have only

seen that short an interval for animals.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I assume it was a clinical trial but I could not find any more

information on it other than the one reference. I'm NOT an experienced

researcher; if I can't find it in Google I'm pretty much lost.

However, the reference was in a book LOVE, MEDICINE AND MIRACLES by Dr.

Bernie S. Siegel. There's lots of very strange things reported in that

book, many of which might typically result in the author being seen as

a quack if considered separately. However, if you tend to believe that

sometimes guide miracles can happen you might find the book

inspirational. In any event, it's a different viewpoint from

conventional totally material allopathic medicine.

Regards,

>

> Posted by: " sheilaturner " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20blood%20test%20and%20stopp\

ing%20thyroid>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

>

> Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:49 am (PDT)

>

> I gather this was a clinic trial . Do you have a reference to

> this. This is really interesting.

>

> Sheila

>

> In any event, I suspect there's a psychological element involved in a

> LOT of our medications that we seldom if ever suspect. For example: I

> read recently of a group of males who were given a placebo but told it

> was chemo. 30% of them lost their hair...

>

>

[Guest guest]

At that time I was taking 2 grains Armour and 25mcgs L-thyroxine + 2 NAE.

Sheila

How much were you taking THEN?Chuck

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[Guest guest]

It's mentioned many times . I guess it depends where you are reading, what you are reading, and how 'scientific' the paper is. Here, we tend to go by how a person feels and follow the basic facts and leave the science to the scientists.

Sheila

That's the only time I think I've seen 8 hours mentioned, so I noticed it. I've always heard or read a day, or 24 hours...Thanks,

..

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[Guest guest]

I phoned Forest to see the half life of the T4 & T3 re armour & was

told that the T4 has a half life of 6 to 7 days generally, if hyper 3

to 4 days and if hypo 9 to 10 days, T3 has a half life of less than or

equal to 2 days in all cases.

So I would guess that the half life will vary a lot for individuals &

this is why some need to take meds much more often than others.

Val

>

> BTW, 's paper also mentions an 8-hour half life for T3. I have

only

> seen that short an interval for animals.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

>

> Well chuck like I have said I have been off my T4 for 20 days...

Again, how much had you been taking when you were " overloaded " with it?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Think I said in a previous mail, had been on 150mcg for 6 weeks and then 175mcg for a week, I say overloaded because thats all I can think it was, I now feel that being on HC alone for 10days has helped because I do feel better and that maybe because I was lacking in cortisone quite considerably and now I am taking some it has probably used up and converted the surplus T4 and converted it to T3, thats my assumption as to why I am not feeling the loss, but again I am not expert

> > Well chuck like I have said I have been off my T4 for 20 days...

Again, how much had you been taking when you were "overloaded" with

it?

Chuck

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical practitioner

before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

Not sure whether you are asking any members of the group or Chuck in particular , but every individual will probably respond to stopping T4 differently. Chuck says he fells ill after 2 days, says she is feeling fine after the length of time she has been off, I certainly felt better after whatever it was that happened to me when I stopped. We have lots of reports on our forum of how people feel, but mostly, we are all different, but sooner or later, however long we stop for, if we still need thyroid hormone replacement, then ONLY thyroid replacement will do the job.

Sheila

Do you know if the way you respond to stopping T4 is fairly typical of the average patient?>

..

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