Re: Too much Armour?

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara,

I'm starting on the Armour next week, and I too am hoping it will be

the answer! I'm so sorry you're still not feeling right.

Did you boost your adrenals first? Apparently you need to make sure

they're okay before you start the Armour? I came off the levo on May

1st to take NAE and DHEA and I'm going to give it a good 3-4 weeks

before I start introducing the Armour. If it doesn't work then I'll be

pretty fed up!

Pen x

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara

The same thing is happening to me at the moment.I started mid march

and got to 3 gr symptoms started to return. I think it is that Armour

is now reaching its peak after 7 or more weeks and all those hormones

are flooding in. Also it may be that your adrenals can nopt cope with

3 grains. I have dropped down to 2 gr and will see what happens when

things settle i will try 2 1/4 and so on.

regards

Alison

>

> I was diagnosed with Hashi's in 1995 and was on 150mcg levothyroxine

> up until February this year.

>

> I've been on armour since the beginning of March, slowly builing up

> from ¼ grain to 3 grains which I am on now.

>

> My last increase from 2½ to 3 grains was 10 days ago - a week past

on

> Tuesday. For the last few days I've been having mild, infrequent

> heart palpitations which I have only just twigged could be a sign

I've

> gone too high on Armour. I was also off work yesterday and am off

> work again today with light-headedness and dizziness which has

> completely knocked me over.

>

> Could this be a sign I'm taking too much armour?

>

> I've already taken my 1½ grains this morning, but am now thinking I

> won't take this afternoon's dose.

>

> I'm a bit disappointed if I have gone too high on Armour already,

> though, as I still have symptoms of low energy, fatigue, brain fog

and

> dry skin. Just like I had on levo. To say I'm disappointed is, to

> say the least, an understatement. I had hoped Armour would be the

> answer ...

>

> Any advice, help or kind words would be appreciated.

>

> Barbara

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alison & Penny,I should have said I am still taking 3 NAE per day as well. I came off levo completely for a week or so before starting the NAE which I did for a week before starting on my Armour.Maybe I should try to go up to 4 NAE per day?I'm so despondent ATM. I really thought this would be the answer Barbara

Hi Barbara

The same thing is happening to me at the moment.I started mid march

and got to 3 gr symptoms started to return. I think it is that Armour

is now reaching its peak after 7 or more weeks and all those hormones

are flooding in. Also it may be that your adrenals can nopt cope with

3 grains. I have dropped down to 2 gr and will see what happens when

things settle i will try 2 1/4 and so on.

..

Get fish-slapping on Messenger! Play Now

[Guest guest]

Don't be down Barbara

I too am impatient, i don't have time to be ill and tired. There is

so much i want to do.

Its just a question of getting the right combination. Maybe you need

to drop some NAE. You can only try. Drop back tomorrow and see how

you feel after a week.

regards

Ali

x

>

> Hi Alison & Penny,

>

> I should have said I am still taking 3 NAE per day as well. I came

off levo completely for a week or so before starting the NAE which I

did for a week before starting on my Armour.

>

> Maybe I should try to go up to 4 NAE per day?

>

> I'm so despondent ATM. I really thought this would be the answer

>

>

> Barbara

>

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>

> Hi Barbara

>

>

>

> The same thing is happening to me at the moment.I started mid march

>

> and got to 3 gr symptoms started to return. I think it is that

Armour

>

> is now reaching its peak after 7 or more weeks and all those

hormones

>

> are flooding in. Also it may be that your adrenals can nopt cope

with

>

> 3 grains. I have dropped down to 2 gr and will see what happens

when

>

> things settle i will try 2 1/4 and so on.

>

> .

>

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> _________________________________________________________________

> Be a Hero and Win with Iron Man

> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000009ukm/direct/01/

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara,

Good idea to drop the pm dose- it'll only take a day or 2 for the

excess T3 to reduce and you should feel better then. Did you have adrenals

tested first? This may be the cause of you not feeling the benefit.

Subject: Too much armour?

I was also off work yesterday and am off

work again today with light-headedness and dizziness which has

completely knocked me over.

Could this be a sign I'm taking too much armour?

I've already taken my 1½ grains this morning, but am now thinking I

won't take this afternoon's dose.

I'm a bit disappointed if I have gone too high on Armour already,

though, as I still have symptoms of low energy, fatigue, brain fog and

dry skin. Just like I had on levo.

Barbara

------------------------------------

Messages are not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always

consult with a suitably qualified practitioner before changing

medication.

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara

Don't be upset - there are some associated conditions that could be the cause of your feeling palpitations and dizziness etc. when you feel that as yet, you still have not reached your sweet spot.

You should only increase by half a grain every 3 to 4 weeks and I do hope this is how you have been increasing your Armour. This is to give your body time to adjust to the higher dose.

What could very well be happening is that suddenly, you are unable to absorb any more Armour because you have any of the following:

1) Low Adrenal Reserve

2) Candida Albicans

3) Mercury poisoning through amalgam fillings

4) Low ferritin (stored iron)

5) Low Vitamin D

Do you feel that you could be suffering with any of these. Go to our website www.tpa-uk.org.uk and click on 'Hypothyroidism' and then click on 'Associated Conditions' and read all about them and make sure you understand the implications. Read especially about low Ferritin and Low Vitamin D. You can read about the mercury connection in the right hand column of the Home Page.

This often happens. Stop the last increase you have recently taken and go back on to the dose you were on before. If you have not tested to see where your cortisol and DHEA levels are with the 24 hour salivary adrenal profile, perhaps now is the time to get this done. If you have, and you are treating your adrenals, then, when you go to bed tonight, take with you a tumbler of water. When you wake, spit into the top of the water, and if, after a while, you see thin strands floating towards the bottom of the glass or the water starts to go cloudy, this is an indication you might have Candida. If none of these, ask your GP to give you a blood test to test your ferritin and check your vitamin D level. You may well need some iron. Once these conditions are treated, you will be amazed what a difference this makes to you and you will be able to absorb your Armour better. When did you last have a blood test. It might be an idea to get one done to fine out what is happening and whether the Armour hormones actually are getting into your system.

Luv - Sheila

Too much armour?

I was diagnosed with Hashi's in 1995 and was on 150mcg levothyroxineup until February this year.I've been on armour since the beginning of March, slowly builing upfrom ¼ grain to 3 grains which I am on now.My last increase from 2½ to 3 grains was 10 days ago - a week past onTuesday. For the last few days I've been having mild, infrequentheart palpitations which I have only just twigged could be a sign I'vegone too high on Armour. I was also off work yesterday and am offwork again today with light-headedness and dizziness which hascompletely knocked me over.Could this be a sign I'm taking too much armour?I've already taken my 1½ grains this morning, but am now thinking Iwon't take this afternoon's dose.I'm a bit disappointed if I have gone too high on Armour already,though, as I still have symptoms of low energy, fatigue, brain fog anddry skin. Just like I had on levo. To say I'm disappointed is, tosay the least, an understatement. I had hoped Armour would be theanswer ...Any advice, help or kind words would be appreciated.Barbara

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[Guest guest]

> I did a liver cleanse/detox, waited a few days

> then added quarter of a grain. Another 4 weeks I did another liver

> cleanse. Immediately after that I started feeling worse: hot

>flushes, high heart rate, palpitations - much worse in evenings and

>overnight. I don't really know what I've done.

Sorry I can't help with any advice Helen but I have read that liver

cleanses/detox can be very hard on the adrenals. Maybe in overtaxing

THEM you have altered that delicate balance between all the hormones,

hence the trouble you're having. Hope you get it sorted soon.

x

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen

I am really sorry to hear you have been going through this. I think probably the liver cleanse could have had something to do with this, but at the back of it all, it sounds to me as if you could have an adrenal problem and you are unable to absorb the thyroid hormone replacement until this is sorted. Have you ever had your adrenals tested to see the level of cortisol and DHEA they are putting out. If not, I would see to this asap. Until this is done, I would not ioncrease your Armour. First, check your adrenal function through the Adrenal Questionnaire in our Files. If you score high, then look towards getting the 24 hour salivary adrenal profile through NPTech (Lab 21). To speed things up, call Ron on 01223 395462 and ask him to send you out the kit.

Also, to see if it could be another condition that is causing you to react this way, have a look at the 'Associated Conditions'that you will find under 'Hypothyroidiosm' www.tpa-uk.org.uk

Is it possible you could see Dr Peatfield at one of his clinics.

Luv - Sheila

Can anyone advise how to deal with this? I was doing quite well on 4 grains of Armour, having started January this year. After 4 weeks on 4 grains I felt fine. I did a liver cleanse/detox, waited a few days then added quarter of a grain. Another 4 weeks I did another liver cleanse. Immediately after that I started feeling worse: hot flushes, high heart rate, palpitations - much worse in evenings and overnight. I assumed too much Armour and reduced to 3and a half, then down to 3 grains when that didn't seem to do anything. I don't really know what I've done. After two weeks like this I had a terrible night two days ago, with high heart rate. Getting better now, but I've no idea what to do now - Does anyone know how long the dose decrease will take to effect, that's 2 and a half weeks now? Should I decrease further? I have asked Drp for help but no response yet. (Won't be doing the liver cleanse again!)HelenxNo virus found in this incoming message.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks and Sheila,

I'm feeling mad with myself for doing this cleanse and de-railing

getting back to normal, but I thought my body would benefit from detox

after years of hypothyroid. Anyway, a lesson for others! (this was the

s Moritz cleanse, lots of detail, but absolutely no indication

of the effects of the cleanse. He recommends doing it 6 to 8 times.)

Helenx

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

I was about to order the adrenal test when I remembered something

about stopping all adrenal support (for 6 weeks, is that right) before

the test. I tried to check with NPTech but they said they can't give

me medical advice on this. Am I right about stopping adrenal support?

I dare not do that at the moment.

Helenx

>

> Hi Helen

>

> Have you ever had your adrenals tested to see the level of cortisol

and DHEA they are putting out.

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen

It depends on what you are taking for your adrenals - if you are taking hydrocortisone, then yes, you should stop for 6 weeks before the test. However, if you are taking Nutri Adrenal Extra, then you stop these for about 3 to 4 days before.

Luv - Sheila

Hi Sheila,I was about to order the adrenal test when I remembered something about stopping all adrenal support (for 6 weeks, is that right) before the test. I tried to check with NPTech but they said they can't give me medical advice on this. Am I right about stopping adrenal support? I dare not do that at the moment.Helenx>> Hi Helen> > Have you ever had your adrenals tested to see the level of cortisol and DHEA they are putting out. > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Sheila,

I'm taking NAE and ginseng. But I'll wait until things have settled a

bit more. My heart rate goes up when I stand up, so another indicator

for adrenal problems.

Helenx

> >

> > Hi Helen

> >

> > Have you ever had your adrenals tested to see the level of

cortisol

> and DHEA they are putting out.

> >

> > >

>

>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1557 - Release Date:

17/07/2008 05:36

>

[Guest guest]

Hi hon

I did a liver cleanse and immediately got shingles, I don't think it

was good for me either. What did you use for yours?

I have a theory. It is similar to the adrenal one.

We cleanse the liver, hard work on the adrenals also maybe it started

converting better after the cleanse and so you suddenly had a more T3

in your system. Don't forget this is just a theory, maybe it is

converting better, or because the adrenals recharge between 10pm and 1

am in the morning you get more cortisol and all that thyroid hormone

that couldn't make it into the cells during the day suddenly makes it

into the cells.

I would wait it out, drink plenty of fluids and drink 1/4 tsp of

celtic sea salt twice a day. Could be related to your electolytes too.

Plenty of vitamin C.

Could be low sugar at that time of night causing adrenalin spikes, do

you eat supper? I am hoping as you were so well before you might

stabilize again soon. (fingers crossed).

Can you not ring Dr P again?

lotsa luv

Dawnx

[Guest guest]

Why don't you phone Dr P if you are having such difficulties? I would

just keep phoning until I managed to get hold of him, rather than keep

worrying for 6 weeks. As you think your GP would be unsympathetic,

going to see him might do more harm than good.

Miriam

>

> No word from dr p though I have a tentative appointment in 6 weeks

> time. I do feel very lonely and unsupported with this so any advice

> is welcome. My GP would not be sympathetic, laugh like a drain more

> like, but I might be forced back to him.

>

> Helenx

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Miriam I will. I'm always conscious of how busy he is, but I

think I'm over the edge now.

Helenx

>

> Why don't you phone Dr P if you are having such difficulties?

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dawn,

I did the s Moritz cleanse: a week on apple juice then a day

on olive oil and grapefruit plus epsom salts.

I'd like to think that my liver is converting better after the

cleanse. Then at least I'd know it's a matter of finding a new

balance point. And your point about adrenals - in hypoT days I slept

all evening. Although I've reduced the dose I'm still well awake at

bedtime and don't get much sleep before I need to get up at 4.30.

Helenx

>

> Hi hon

>

> I did a liver cleanse and immediately got shingles, I don't think

it

> was good for me either. What did you use for yours?

>

> I have a theory. It is similar to the adrenal one.

>

> We cleanse the liver, hard work on the adrenals also maybe it

started

> converting better after the cleanse and so you suddenly had a more

T3

> in your system. Don't forget this is just a theory, maybe it is

> converting better, or because the adrenals recharge between 10pm

and 1

> am in the morning you get more cortisol and all that thyroid

hormone

> that couldn't make it into the cells during the day suddenly makes

it

> into the cells.

>

> I would wait it out, drink plenty of fluids and drink 1/4 tsp of

> celtic sea salt twice a day. Could be related to your electolytes

too.

> Plenty of vitamin C.

> Could be low sugar at that time of night causing adrenalin

spikes, do

> you eat supper? I am hoping as you were so well before you might

> stabilize again soon. (fingers crossed).

>

> Can you not ring Dr P again?

>

> lotsa luv

> Dawnx

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

I put a link to the radio interview with s Moritz in my files

folder.

The apple juice is a very good source of malic acid.

Malic acid is a critical component in the mitochondrial energy

producing system (Malate Shuttle).

It is also a very good chelator of calcium in such places as the gall

bladder; I've been eating apples for the last few months, using cider

in its therapeutic role (malic acid) for quite bit longer; buying

apple juice in preference to other juices, when I get to choose.

I hadn't thought it was doing my gall bladder any good but listening

to the s Moritz interview, it's clear that the extra fat intake

is clearing my gall bladder ~ head feels better; less incipient

headache.....teetering on the brink of one.

When I found that lithium in low doses (below the bipolar therapeutic

dose) fixes hypnic headaches, I was both astonished that it fixed it

in 36hrs and equally surprised that it was the alternative to

cortisol!

HYPNIC HEADACHES WAKE YOU UP ABOUT 4.00AM, REGULAR AS CLOCKWORK,

UNTIL YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I can't recommend that you ask your doc about using low dose

lithium...s/he'll have to look it up on the net, lol...

but my guess is that a night-time cortisol problem 'may' be fixed by

either route (hydrocortisone/lithium).

How that might interact with your thyroid hormones is worth persuing.

, on the USAboutThyroid forum carried out the

original ''s Home Lab Experiment' upon night-time dosing of

T4/Armour; later developed by Bolk,Visser et al who raised the

prospect that a larger trial should be initiated (following their

limited trial).

wrote quite a bit on liver flushing on the USAboutThyroid

Forum.

At least two people I know had gall bladder ops, and there are, as

mentioned by Moritz, likely complications thereafter.

best wishes

Bob

don't be mad with yourself for trying to improve your liver

function...adjust the thyroid hormone levels to what you can tolerate

and that may need a tiny amount of hydrocortisone at evenig/night.

>

> Thanks and Sheila,

>

I'm feeling mad with myself for doing this cleanse and de-railing

getting back to normal, but I thought my body would benefit from

detox

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen

The baroceptor in the neck artery kicks your heart rate up when you

stand up; take it easy when you get out of bed, sit for a minute

before standing; likewise, when standing up from the sitting

position, hold onto something while you do it, slowly.

Whilst the 'apparent' T3 level is wandering around, your heart muscle

will be changing its composition to adapt to the new T3 (T4?) level.

The adrenergic receptors also change at the same time as the cardiac

muscle composition changes.

(Look inside, logged on at Amazon ~ can see Review of Medical

Physiology ed WF Ganong) check out the cardiac muscle physiology

under thyroid control.

best wishes

Bob

>

> Thanks Sheila,

>

> I'm taking NAE and ginseng. But I'll wait until things have settled

[Guest guest]

Bob, thank you for this. (my apologies for the delay in replying -

I've just found out that new replies don't always " go " at the bottom

of my message list or in the digest.)

What a fascinating topic this all is! I will try the HC route.

I found that the sugar in the apple juice during the cleanse did

throw my blood sugar because it should be taken between meals. Next

time (if there is one!!) I will try to get hold of Malic acid

instead - he offers that as an alternative.

Helenx

> >

> > Thanks and Sheila,

> >

> I'm feeling mad with myself for doing this cleanse and de-railing

> getting back to normal, but I thought my body would benefit from

> detox

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

Thank you. I'm trying to do evrything slowly but that's good advice.

Have you seen anything that indicates why heart rate would suddenly

increase 20 beats when I'm in a resting state? I'm really interested

in the concept of the heart muscle changing its composition.

Supports my view that I don't want to make any further drastic

changes in dose.

Helenx

>

> Hi Helen

>

> The baroceptor in the neck artery kicks your heart rate up when

you

> stand up; take it easy when you get out of bed, sit for a minute

> before standing; likewise, when standing up from the sitting

> position, hold onto something while you do it, slowly.

>

> Whilst the 'apparent' T3 level is wandering around, your heart

muscle

> will be changing its composition to adapt to the new T3 (T4?)

level.

>

> The adrenergic receptors also change at the same time as the

cardiac

> muscle composition changes.

>

> (Look inside, logged on at Amazon ~ can see Review of Medical

> Physiology ed WF Ganong) check out the cardiac muscle physiology

> under thyroid control.

>

> best wishes

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

The corresponding problem, is that when your heart rate drops too low

you don't get quite enough oxygen to the brain and that also kicks

off the adrenergic receptors (low metabolism/hypoxic makes it all

more sensitive ~ so keeping things stable is important).

best wishes

Bob

>

> Hi Bob,

>

> Thank you. I'm trying to do evrything slowly but that's good

advice.

> Have you seen anything that indicates why heart rate would suddenly

increase 20 beats when I'm in a resting state? I'm really interested

in the concept of the heart muscle changing its composition. Supports

my view that I don't want to make any further drastic changes in dose.

>

> Helenx

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

[[...Next time (if there is one!!) I will try to get hold of Malic

acid instead - he offers that as an alternative...]]

That's why I use more cider, the brewing process by-passes the sugar

problem :-) and is also beneficial in that it provides acetyl co-

enzyme A, as a fuel source that is independent of the mitochondrial

route to some extent.

Alcohol produces the Acetyl groups for the energy molecule Acetyl Co-

enzyme A, whilst the malic acid enhances mitochondrial action in any

case.

I use Sainsbury's 3L bottles at £2.78? ~ lasts about a week - 10days

and doesn't contain artificial sweeteners, as far as I can tell..

worth considering in the interests of your health...small glass per

day, perhaps.....but a Home-brew shop would have malic acid.

best wishes

Bob

>

> Bob, thank you for this. (my apologies for the delay in replying -

> I've just found out that new replies don't always " go " at the

bottom of my message list or in the digest.)

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Helen

>

> The baroceptor in the neck artery kicks your heart rate up when you

> stand up;

So is the heart rate supposed to go up when you stand then Bob? Like

Helen mine always does, although my BP drops. I know the latter is a

sign of weak adrenals but I've always wondered about the increase in

heart rate and whether that was a good or bad sign. I googled

baroceptor and read a little about that. Learning all the time!

Thanks

x

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

The adrenergic kick sets off the adrenals to produce a spike for

adrenalin release and also administers a kick to the heart; the heart

rate should rise sufficient to just compensate for the apparent drop

in blood pressure on rising......since the baroceptor is in the neck

artery, it signals the approximate BP in the brain +/-.

Imagine a giraffe!

I got a bloodshot eye on running up-stairs some time back, but I had

also consumed 'food' that might exacerbate that process ~ a statin

etc. just once ~ that was enough.

best wishes

Bob

> >

> > Hi Helen

> >

> > The baroceptor in the neck artery kicks your heart rate up when

you stand up;

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-

thyroid & tid=61884

Sept 2004

best wishes

Bob

>

> Hi Bob,

>

> I might be being dim, but can you point me in the direction of the

> forum you mentioned please?

> Helenx