Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Cindi, I am curious (as I can certainly relate to the adrenal issues.) Are you taking Armour? Do you ever go to www.stopthethyroidmadness.com? There is a huge amount of adrenal info there and they are very pro HC. What saliva test did you take? Thakns, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >if by " academic exercise " you mean " learning " , i guess so. >cindi I believe I asked you once before why you thought you had high cortisol - iodine/message/7531 " I was a high cortisol gal when starting Armour...and was very stable on 4 1/2 grains of Armour until after taking a quinolone antibiotic. I thinnk treating the hypo fixed the high cortisol for me. " Did your cortisol actually test high, or was there some other reason you believed it high? Did you know low DHEA can be a sign of low adrenals?. Durrant-Peatfield said if the adrenal insufficiency was of long standing, low DHEA was a typical sign, since the tests for cortisol itself is not very good. OTOH, it can just be the pathway can be messed up. IN those cases, DHEA will actually be high in relation to cortisol, as pregnenonlone is converted to DHEA at the expense of cortisol. In other cases taking DHEA will actually lower cortisol. Atkins said this, and so did Durrant-Peatfield. Somewhere in Lowe's Q & A he discusses why taking DHEA doesn't always lower cortisol. That discussion can be found at http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/dhea.htm Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Try the new Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us & FORM=WLMTAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >sorry the link didn't work... >if you're interested in the article, just google " glucocortoid induced >adrenal insuffiency " and it's the first PDF document you come >too...written by Alan Krasner in 1999. >cindi The title explains the concept. Glucocortioid (hyrdrocortisone or it's toxic synthetic analog, prednisone) induced adrenal insufficiency. That means they suppress the HPA axis and the adrenals on purpose. In this case, I guess to see if once the HPA is suppressed, if they can artificially inject ACTH and see if the adrenals will still work. As for the safety of hydrocortisone, they seem to be afraid of using it as Jeffries descrbed in a dose not large enough to suppress the HPA, yet, see how commonly they use the glucocortoids - http://www.uspharmacist.com/NewLook/CE/glucocort/lesson.htm " Glucocorticoids are among the most commonly prescribed agents in clinical practice. Their varied physiologic effects make them ideal agents for treating several disease states. " Except, I'm thinking these many and varied uses refer to only suppressive doses, and mainly of prednisone. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 yes, when i was first diagnosed with hashi/hypo in 2004, i tested high cortisol. DHEA was normal, but low in range. this could have been slightly deceptive I guess...as my liver would have been clearing cortisol at a slower rate when hypo. But it was still pretty high. I suppose as I corrected hypo, low cortisol could have made an appearance. I'm going to check it via saliva. What I have noticed is adrenal reserve doesn't seem to replenish fast after stressors (i meet the stress...but have a down period for about a week or two)...and to me, this is a sign of weak adrenals. Whether that warrants treatment with h/c or not...would be my big question...which is why i have tried to learn so much about h/c and all the finer points of replacement doses, hpa axis suppression, etc. i'll see what the saliva test indicate. yes, I know low DHEA or high DHEA (in stage 6) can be indicative of adrenal fatigue...but so far, i've been in range, just low. cindi >> > I believe I asked you once before why you thought you had high cortisol - > > iodine/message/7531 > " I was a high cortisol gal when starting Armour...and was very stable on 4 > 1/2 grains of Armour until after taking a quinolone antibiotic. I thinnk > treating the hypo fixed the high cortisol for me. " > > Did your cortisol actually test high, or was there some other reason you > believed it high? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I didn't have any problem understanding the concept of the article...however within the article was excellent information in several areas...various tests, HPA axis suppression, etc. My question to you earlier...was because I thought you had referred to the ACTH stim test as a test for HPA axis suppression...you clarified to me you meant an ACTH blood draw. thanks. i totally agree that docs are afraid to use H/C in sub-replacemement doses...but i do think it would be important to have agreement on what a " replacement dose " is and how HPA axis can be affected by even low dose H/c (as well as inhaled steroids and h/c skin ointments) - before we talk about sub-replacement doses for CFS or AF. cindi > > > The title explains the concept. Glucocortioid (hyrdrocortisone or it's > toxic synthetic analog, prednisone) induced adrenal insufficiency. That > means they suppress the HPA axis and the adrenals on purpose. In this case, > I guess to see if once the HPA is suppressed, if they can artificially > inject ACTH and see if the adrenals will still work. > > As for the safety of hydrocortisone, they seem to be afraid of using it as > Jeffries descrbed in a dose not large enough to suppress the HPA, yet, see > how commonly they use the glucocortoids - > > http://www.uspharmacist.com/NewLook/CE/glucocort/lesson.htm > " Glucocorticoids are among the most commonly prescribed agents in clinical > practice. Their varied physiologic effects make them ideal agents for > treating several disease states. " > > Except, I'm thinking these many and varied uses refer to only suppressive > doses, and mainly of prednisone. > > Skipper > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >yes, when i was first diagnosed with hashi/hypo in 2004 Since you had Hashi's, did they also test your adrenal antibodies? (That's just a rhetorical question, as just because you are more likely to have adrenal antibodies if you have Hashi's, I've never actually heard someone say their doctor tested them.) I guess if you have ovarian failure, it's good to test for it, though maybe it would be better testing before the fact - http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYD/is_19_37/ai_92938820 An adrenal-antibody test is the best way to screen for adrenal insufficiency in women with premature ovarian failure. " The adrenal antibody test was, by far, the most efficient way to screen, " said Dr. , who is head of the gynecologic endocrinology unit at the institute. Its positive predictive value was 67%, and its negative predictive value was 100%. Although the ACTH stimulation test is best for confirming a diagnosis, as a screen it produced two false-positive results. Measurement of morning serum cortisol levels missed three of the cases. ************************************************************** The value of this might be the fact they say the antibody test is the best predictior of low adrenals. , i tested >high cortisol. Ray Peat said, that in many who had high heart rate when hypothyroid, it was because the body was trying to compensate for low thyroid by producing adrenaline. (YOu can find that on Shomon's site.) Do you know what follows high adrenaline? High cortisol, of course - http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Demystifying_Depression:The_Stress_System " Just as your levels of adrenaline start coming down, so rises the amount of cortisol flowing through your veins. Moreover, cortisol has a much larger momentum than adrenaline, which means that even though it builds up slowly, it also takes a long time to go back to normal. And should you constantly be engaging in activities which require adrenaline, so will your levels of cortisol slowly increase. " So, the adrenals trying to compensate for low thyroid can cause adrenal exhaustion, which is why high cortisol is sometimes only a sign that the adrenals will be crashing before long. >DHEA was normal, but low in range. Did you know lab reference ranges follow the mathematical definition of " normal. " That is the range which is two standard deviations from the mean. Or, easier to understand is that if your DHEA actually shows up as low on a lab, your in the same range as 2.25% of the population (i.e. 97.75% of the population have a higher DHEA than you.) That has nothing to do with optimal or well, especially if their lab range contains 80 year olds. Some labs actually give an age and sex adjusted level. > I'm going to check it via saliva. >What I have noticed is adrenal reserve doesn't seem to replenish >fast after stressors (i meet the stress...but have a down period for >about a week or two)...and to me, this is a sign of weak adrenals. That makes sense. And may be why Jeffries claimed the adrenal reserve was actually strengthened by taking HC, because it took away the two week down time after stress. It makes a huge difference. I actually quadrupled my dose of HC when going to the dentist once before substantianl work. First time I ever came home happy afterward. >Whether that warrants treatment with h/c or not...would be my big >question...which is why i have tried to learn so much about h/c and >all the finer points of replacement doses, hpa axis suppression, >etc. i'll see what the saliva test indicate. > >yes, I know low DHEA or high DHEA (in stage 6) can be indicative of >adrenal fatigue...but so far, i've been in range, just low. So are you at the 3rd percentile, the 10th percentile or the 50th percentile? They don't tell you that on the lab tests, but all those percentiles would be " normal. " Actually since numbers are sometimes skewed on the curves, there's no telling what percentile you are really at just by hearing the range. For example, the range for TSH is usually .5 - 5.5. So, if your TSH is 3, you would think you were mid range. Yet, in large studies 85% of those tested without thyroid problems have a TSH below 2.35. Therefore you'd be in the highest 15%. The halfway point for TSH is actually 1.5, but you'd never know it from looking at a lab slip. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best route! http://local.live.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 lol on the rhetorical. of course they didn't test antibodies...but yes, i know i'm at higher risk because of the hashi's...and i do have some vitiligo (associated with autoimmune thyroid...and adrenals). i did tell an endo in about my concerns about adrenal dysfunction...even pointing out my mom's autopsy findings which showed adrenal hyperplasia (adrenal struggling to maintain balance in the body so i've read - swells up)....and so the endo did a cortisol draw at 3:00. the range was 3-17 i think...and I was an 8. In retrospect....that doesn't look that great to me...and yet the high saliva cortisol was after that. I have a history of 15 years of undiagnosed hypo symptoms (TSH was just 2.something for all those years)...and it's hard for me to believe that I don't have exhausted adrenals with that history. As for H/C..i've actually played with 2.5 in the AM..and feel that small amount with a marked lift in energy. I add another 2.5 4 hrs. later...and I also notice that. For some reason, that doesn't sound so good adrenal wise to me...to actually feel that small of an amount. what do you think? If I test low on saliva (test should be here this week)...I'm thinking at this late stage of the game (I'm 51)...I will first go on h/c at a dose that is 1/2 what my 's replacement would be as calculated by body surface. I'm a thin gal (adrenal perhaps?) and 20 mg. is just about my full replacement dosage according to the standard formulas. So for me, I think that's too much if I'm really trying to be cautious about HPA axis suppression. I'd rather not make myself into an addison's patient and since i'm responding to 2.5 mg...i'm thinking I don't need 20 mg. Hard to say, huh? The last DHEAS test I had...I was 5.1 in a range of 3-10...but that's an old test..i may have really changed since then...since that was with high cortisol...and i'm certain i'm no longer high. cindi cindi > > > Since you had Hashi's, did they also test your adrenal antibodies? (That's > just a rhetorical question, as just because you are more likely to have > adrenal antibodies if you have Hashi's, I've never actually heard someone > say their doctor tested them.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 yes, the SSTM is excellent in many many ways...I helped on the start-up of the site and used to moderate the Mental Health forum there. To make a long story short, I'm no longer there because of (to the best of my knowledge) my disagreements with the adrenal info presented there and disagreements behind the scenes on the h/c subject. Yes, they have been very pro H/C...and lots of it. It's actually not so much that I disagree with all the SSTM adrenal info though. Hypo folks very often need H/C in order to even get thyroid hormone into them. And using Peatfield's guidelines (which they mostly do) of giving 20 mg. for a couple of months while someone gets optimized on Armour will probably not hurt anyone. As much as I admire and respect Peatfield, his information on 's replacement dosages (he says 40 mg. in a resting state) is incorrect according to everything I can find on the subject. I suppose he is going by the older info as he is an older doctor. But he clearly indicates correctly, adrenal suppression shouldn't be a problem unless it is prolonged. But my question always was..shouldn't his 20 mg. 1/2 a replacement dosage be adjusted downward? And how long is too long to be on h/c? I mean too me..it's a little too easy to tell someone they must have needed it for life..when you were recommending they take 30 mg. with no weaning info...and caused them to have permanent suppression. And then we never even got to discussion about what stages of Adrenal Fatigue actually need h/c? I'm not so sure it's Stage 2 for example..and yet that has been advocated by those moderators. Where the big problem came in (or perhaps where they had a problem with me) is we could even never agree on what an 's replacement dosage is...they go strictly by Peatfield ...and I go by everything else. I suppose there was also disagreement in that I feel like folks should understand the risks of adrenal suppression with doses of 20 and 30 mg. and the risk of being on H/C for life. I do think their HypoPit forum Moderator, Chris...gives excellent info here - keeping in mind he has mostly worked with hypopit folks: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1404 I reference this..because one thing he does...is point out the need for testing before going on H/C...and the real possibility that smaller doses may not suffice...and a person may be on it for life - and he gives his theory why. I guess with H/C - because of the risk of adrenal crisis and death and the need to know about stress dosing - I think extreme caution is needed - and enough information given - before recommending H/C to folks so easily. But i'm more the conservative type...they may have the right idea. dunno. some folks investigate what they read and make their own decisions...I just worry about the folks who are desperate and blindly follow. But don't let anything I say about their adrenal info take away from the greatness of that site...okay? I do disagree with some of the adrenal info...but that site is saving lives and folks' sanity. IF they find they've gone overboard on the h/c...they'll fine tune the message i am sure. And yes, I take Armour. I've ordered a saliva test through clymer clinic which is a diagnos-tech test. and I've also ordered a test through ZRT lab. I'm going to do both one day after the other...because i'm curious as to how they will compare from lab to lab. Cindi > > Cindi, > I am curious (as I can certainly relate to the adrenal issues.) Are you > taking Armour? Do you ever go to _www.stopthethyroidmadness.com_ > (http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com) ? There is a huge amount of adrenal info there and > they are very pro HC. What saliva test did you take? > Thakns, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >I didn't have any problem understanding the concept of the >article...however within the article was excellent information in >several areas...various tests, HPA axis suppression, etc. I couldn't link to the article, and I couldn't find the particular article in the search engine, but that's OK. > >My question to you earlier...was because I thought you had referred >to the ACTH stim test as a test for HPA axis suppression...you >clarified to me you meant an ACTH blood draw. thanks. > >i totally agree that docs are afraid to use H/C in sub-replacemement >doses...but i do think it would be important to have agreement on >what a " replacement dose " is and how HPA axis can be affected by >even low dose H/c (as well as inhaled steroids and h/c skin >ointments) - before we talk about sub-replacement doses for CFS or >AF. >cindi > And you're convinced that Jeffries is wrong? It sounds like you think you need it, but the doctors who are afraid of you have convinced you there's good reason, those same doctors who prescribe Prednisone for a lot of different conditions in suppressive doses. You won't know if it can help you until you try it. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 you will have the greatest success on 5mg 4X a day. I think that is why Jefferies recommended it. I was told to take 5mg 3X a day and within a week I had stopped H/C, thinking I didn't need it. ONE WHOLE YEAR LATER!!! I started on 5mg 4X a day and it was perfect. It's really counterproductive to think you have to take the most minimal dose. Just like with Armour, you need enough. You aren't going to suppress your already struggling H-P-A axis. gracia lol on the rhetorical. of course they didn't test antibodies...but yes, i know i'm at higher risk because of the hashi's...and i do have some vitiligo (associated with autoimmune thyroid...and adrenals). i did tell an endo in about my concerns about adrenal dysfunction...even pointing out my mom's autopsy findings which showed adrenal hyperplasia (adrenal struggling to maintain balance in the body so i've read - swells up)....and so the endo did a cortisol draw at 3:00. the range was 3-17 i think...and I was an 8. In retrospect....that doesn't look that great to me...and yet the high saliva cortisol was after that. I have a history of 15 years of undiagnosed hypo symptoms (TSH was just 2.something for all those years)...and it's hard for me to believe that I don't have exhausted adrenals with that history. As for H/C..i've actually played with 2.5 in the AM..and feel that small amount with a marked lift in energy. I add another 2.5 4 hrs. later...and I also notice that. For some reason, that doesn't sound so good adrenal wise to me...to actually feel that small of an amount. what do you think?If I test low on saliva (test should be here this week)...I'm thinking at this late stage of the game (I'm 51)...I will first go on h/c at a dose that is 1/2 what my 's replacement would be as calculated by body surface. I'm a thin gal (adrenal perhaps?) and 20 mg. is just about my full replacement dosage according to the standard formulas. So for me, I think that's too much if I'm really trying to be cautious about HPA axis suppression. I'd rather not make myself into an addison's patient and since i'm responding to 2.5 mg...i'm thinking I don't need 20 mg. Hard to say, huh? The last DHEAS test I had...I was 5.1 in a range of 3-10...but that's an old test..i may have really changed since then...since that was with high cortisol...and i'm certain i'm no longer high. cindicindi>> > Since you had Hashi's, did they also test your adrenal antibodies? (That's > just a rhetorical question, as just because you are more likely to have > adrenal antibodies if you have Hashi's, I've never actually heard someone > say their doctor tested them.) No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >As for H/C..i've actually played with 2.5 in the AM..and feel that >small amount with a marked lift in energy. I add another 2.5 4 hrs. >later...and I also notice that. For some reason, that doesn't sound >so good adrenal wise to me...to actually feel that small of an >amount. what do you think? I think HC is a powerful hormone. The 10 mg a day you're talking about may be adequate for you. Just be aware that if you are on too low a dose of a particular hormone, it can also cause problems. The Synthroid lit mentions too low a dose can cause or worsen hypothyroid symptoms, and I don't think that's so uncommon with hormones in general. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Search—Your way, your world, right now! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us & FORM=WLMTAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Not exactly. What i think he was wrong about was hydrocortisone being equal to cortisone acetate. if we make the adjustment on that...hydrocortisone is stronger... Jefferies would be saying that 32 mg. is a full replacement dosage...and that is more in line with all the research that came after him. not sure if you were saying I'm afraid of docs (sorta wrong - i hate docs mostly...and only afraid of them because they have harmed me) or the docs are afraid of me (hehe - well maybe a few of them)....but i have no problem at all taking H/C if it's indicated. and speaking of suppressive prednisone doses...that may well have been my downfall. I had one in april or may...and was very reluctant to do it because i feared the suppression effect to my adrenals...and honestly, i haven't been quite the same since that. Now...it could have been that i should have lowered my armour dose to compensate for the hit to the adrenals...don't know. But i'm not afraid of H/C. I am afraid of being uninformed. Cindi > > >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> > > > > > And you're convinced that Jeffries is wrong? It sounds like you think you > need it, but the doctors who are afraid of you have convinced you there's > good reason, those same doctors who prescribe Prednisone for a lot of > different conditions in suppressive doses. > > You won't know if it can help you until you try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 What is a BB doc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 It's ironic isn't it? I was on the NTH list and the first person there to take H/C, and they were hearing none of what I had to say about it! You should also be investigating iodine b/c I think it is very helpful too. I can't figure out why you care how much H/C s patients should take! Who cares?! Gracia yes, the SSTM is excellent in many many ways...I helped on the start-up of the site and used to moderate the Mental Health forum there. To make a long story short, I'm no longer there because of (to the best of my knowledge) my disagreements with the adrenal info presented there and disagreements behind the scenes on the h/c subject. Yes, they have been very pro H/C...and lots of it. It's actually not so much that I disagree with all the SSTM adrenal info though. Hypo folks very often need H/C in order to even get thyroid hormone into them. And using Peatfield's guidelines (which they mostly do) of giving 20 mg. for a couple of months while someone gets optimized on Armour will probably not hurt anyone. As much as I admire and respect Peatfield, his information on 's replacement dosages (he says 40 mg. in a resting state) is incorrect according to everything I can find on the subject. I suppose he is going by the older info as he is an older doctor. But he clearly indicates correctly, adrenal suppression shouldn't be a problem unless it is prolonged. But my question always was..shouldn't his 20 mg. 1/2 a replacement dosage be adjusted downward? And how long is too long to be on h/c? I mean too me..it's a little too easy to tell someone they must have needed it for life..when you were recommending they take 30 mg. with no weaning info...and caused them to have permanent suppression. And then we never even got to discussion about what stages of Adrenal Fatigue actually need h/c? I'm not so sure it's Stage 2 for example..and yet that has been advocated by those moderators. Where the big problem came in (or perhaps where they had a problem with me) is we could even never agree on what an 's replacement dosage is...they go strictly by Peatfield ...and I go by everything else. I suppose there was also disagreement in that I feel like folks should understand the risks of adrenal suppression with doses of 20 and 30 mg. and the risk of being on H/C for life. I do think their HypoPit forum Moderator, Chris...gives excellent info here - keeping in mind he has mostly worked with hypopit folks:http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1404I reference this..because one thing he does...is point out the need for testing before going on H/C...and the real possibility that smaller doses may not suffice...and a person may be on it for life - and he gives his theory why. I guess with H/C - because of the risk of adrenal crisis and death and the need to know about stress dosing - I think extreme caution is needed - and enough information given - before recommending H/C to folks so easily. But i'm more the conservative type...they may have the right idea. dunno. some folks investigate what they read and make their own decisions...I just worry about the folks who are desperate and blindly follow. But don't let anything I say about their adrenal info take away from the greatness of that site...okay? I do disagree with some of the adrenal info...but that site is saving lives and folks' sanity. IF they find they've gone overboard on the h/c...they'll fine tune the message i am sure. And yes, I take Armour. I've ordered a saliva test through clymer clinic which is a diagnos-tech test. and I've also ordered a test through ZRT lab. I'm going to do both one day after the other...because i'm curious as to how they will compare from lab to lab. Cindi>> Cindi,> I am curious (as I can certainly relate to the adrenal issues.) Are you > taking Armour? Do you ever go to _www.stopthethyroidmadness.com_ > (http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com) ? There is a huge amount of adrenal info there and > they are very pro HC. What saliva test did you take?> Thakns,> > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >Not exactly. > >What i think he was wrong about was hydrocortisone being equal to >cortisone acetate. I can't locate my book right now, but I thought he specifically mentioned Cortef. >not sure if you were saying I'm afraid of docs (sorta wrong - i hate >docs mostly...and only afraid of them because they have harmed me) You should be afraid. By their own admission, their errors are the fourth leading cause of death in the USA. >and speaking of suppressive prednisone doses...that may well have >been my downfall. I had one in april or may...and was very >reluctant to do it because i feared the suppression effect to my >adrenals Depending on the reason, normally they simply want to give you a high dose of 60 -80 mg of prednisone, wihout first trying lower amounts to see if they'll suffice. But, ask for a low dose to help your adrenals and they panic. .....and honestly, i haven't been quite the same since that. >Now...it could have been that i should have lowered my armour dose >to compensate for the hit to the adrenals No. If you are having a hyperthyroid storm, some doctors will give you prednisone because they know it interferes with the ability to convert T4 to T3 and stops the emergency. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Try the new Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us & FORM=WLMTAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 good point...and that's why i've researched this all so diligently. it's interesting to me that there is research out there with CFS using 5 and 10 mg. with benefit and no suppression...and then you have this middle ground of 15-20 mg. with big " ifs " about the degree of suppression (some docs using 20 and some docs staying at 12 mg. for adrenal fatigue) and then 25-30 mg. basically being full replacement. of course it bears repeating...that suppression isn't a problem as long as it is not prolonged. I'm thinking this is also like Armour Thyroid...in that you can take just a little bit (one grain or less?) and you actually supplement with a very small amount...but if you take much more than that, you interfere with the HPT feedback loop and end up needing full replacement to feel good. I'm also interested in the data that talks about When you take doses (and this is probably for pharmalogic - but still has application) - and how that affects suppresssion: ACTH and cortisol are normally secreted with a diurnal rhythm; with cortisol levels highest in the morning and lowest in the late evening. Some studies show that when steroids are given at 8am glucocorticoid secretion is suppressed at 4pm and midnight but insignificantly so at 8am the next morning. Given at 4pm, the same dose suppresses glucocorticoid secretion totally at midnight, partially at 8am, and insignificantly at 4pm the next day. When given at midnight however glucocorticoid secretion is suppressed for 24 hours6. cindi > > > > I think HC is a powerful hormone. The 10 mg a day you're talking about may > be adequate for you. Just be aware that if you are on too low a dose of a > particular hormone, it can also cause problems. The Synthroid lit mentions > too low a dose can cause or worsen hypothyroid symptoms, and I don't think > that's so uncommon with hormones in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I think Jefferies recommended it because he used cortisone acetate which is shorter acting in the body. I still like Lowe's protocol on this....3x a day dosing, with the biggest dose in the AM. just makes more sense to me when looking at the body's rhythm and the longer acting action of h/c in the body. h/c I thought has a half-life of 8-12 hrs...although i keep seeing folks say in some places it's used up in 4 hours. I think little doses (as used in CFS) versus larger doses...depends on many factors. I don't believe in a one size fits all for H/C and adrenal fatigue protocol any more than I think all folks needs the same amount of Armour. I do agree however that Peatfield's protocol (20 mg. - 40 mg.) of H/C when getting someone optimized on thyroid hormone has the benefit of them not needing to stress dose during that time...and simplifies the whole thing....but I'm not sure he really intended everyone to take 30 mg. of h/c for an extended period of time. but i've been wrong before. cindi > > > you will have the greatest success on 5mg 4X a day. I think that is why Jefferies recommended it. I was told to take 5mg 3X a day and within a week I had stopped H/C, thinking I didn't need it. ONE WHOLE YEAR LATER!!! I started on 5mg 4X a day and it was perfect. It's really counterproductive to think you have to take the most minimal dose. Just like with Armour, you need enough. You aren't going to suppress your already struggling H-P-A axis. > gracia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >I think Jefferies recommended it because he used cortisone acetate >which is shorter acting in the body. I thought he mentioned Cortef by name. (Can't find my book right now.) > >I still like Lowe's protocol on this....3x a day dosing, with the >biggest dose in the AM. just makes more sense to me when looking at >the body's rhythm and the longer acting action of h/c in the body. Seems to make sense. However, the AM is when it's easiest for the body to produce cortisol on its own, so do you want to supress the ACTH at that time? Because your body is producing the cortisol, you will have higher levels at that time, just like the circadian rhythm. Plus the larger any single dose the more likely to have weight gain from the timing of the dosage. In " Adrenal Fatigue " vaguely explained how those with adrenal insufficiency could have weight gain because of the timing of the cortisol production. I'm assuming he meant all at once, instead of spacing it out but I could be wrong. >h/c I thought has a half-life of 8-12 hrs...although i keep seeing >folks say in some places it's used up in 4 hours. And 12 hour " half-life " means in your system for 24 hours. ...but I'm not sure he >really intended everyone to take 30 mg. of h/c for an extended >period of time. but i've been wrong before. He saw it as s couple month issue. Don't have his book in front of me, but this is what he published to the Internet first. 1/2 of a tablet 3 or 4 times a day is 15 - 20 mg. And he says it's normally stopped in 3 to 4 months, except those people who's adrenals aren't fixed by the thyroid treatment - <Quote> Low Adrenal ReserveCORTISONE REPLACEMENT IN THE LOW ADRENAL RESERVE SYNDROME © 1994 Dr. Barry Durrant-Peatfield M.B., B.S., L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S. All rights reserved. This copyright must not be removed. You will be given hydrocortisone 10mgm, which is the natural form, to take in a dose appropriate to your needs. Half a tablet three or four times a day is usual, later to be increased, if required. Adrenal insufficiency related to low thyroid function corrects itself, as the thyroid levels improve, and usually after, two, three or four months, have recovered sufficiently for the cortisone therapy to be stopped. <UNQuote> Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get\ ..live.com/spaces/features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >good point...and that's why i've researched this all so diligently. >it's interesting to me that there is research out there with CFS >using 5 and 10 mg. with benefit and no suppression...and then you >have this middle ground of 15-20 mg. with big " ifs " about the degree I don't think those of us taking the 5 mg 4 times daily are too concerned about it. Of course, I " m a 230 pound male, and I'm sure there are 115 pound females taking the same dosage. of course it bears repeating...that suppression isn't >a problem as long as it is not prolonged. > >I'm thinking this is also like Armour Thyroid...in that you can take >just a little bit (one grain or less?) and you actually supplement >with a very small amount...but if you take much more than that, you >interfere with the HPT feedback loop and end up needing full >replacement to feel good. A very limited amount of people do well on small doses. However, Synthroid lit says that too low a dose can worsen or cause hypothyroid symptoms. It does work for some,but not many, and those on small doses if they understood low thyroid would generally start to see more symptoms than they had when they started. Not all, but many patients. >ACTH and cortisol are normally secreted with a diurnal rhythm; with >cortisol levels highest in the morning and lowest in the late >evening. Some studies show that when steroids are given at 8am >glucocorticoid secretion is suppressed at 4pm and midnight but >insignificantly so at 8am the next morning. Given at 4pm, the same >dose suppresses glucocorticoid secretion totally at midnight, >partially at 8am, and insignificantly at 4pm the next day. When >given at midnight however glucocorticoid secretion is suppressed for >24 hours6. This may or may not be relevant. For one thing you say " steroids " cause.... Well, what kind of steroid? If we're talking about Prednisone, it's irrelevant because no one should be taking prednisone for this. It's different, it's a synthetic analog, and it has no mineralocortoid activity, which many with AI need. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Search—say hello! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us & FORM=WLMTAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I think I have had it. I had a blood draw at 8a.m. and then waited an hour? then was given an injection I think then another blood draw? All was pronounced normal ( Gracia > > I think she is worried it will suppress the HPA axis. Have you ever had > your ACTH taken? (Just the ACTH level, which can be taken at the same > time > as your other labs, and I'm not referring to the ACTH stim test, only the > ACTH level.) > > Skipper > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more.then map the best > route! http://local.live.com > > > > Iodine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 hydrocortisone IS pretty much equal to cortisone acetate. It is just dosed differently. Cort acetate dose would be 37mg=20mg cortef. My BB doc asked me which one I liked best, and I said I guess I like cortef best. But they work the same. Gracia .. >> > I can't locate my book right now, but I thought he specifically mentioned > Cortef.if i remember correctly...take a look in the section "replacement doses" near the beginning...and he says cortisone acetate is the same as cortisol...let me know. > > .. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Broda http://www.brodabarnes.org Gracia What is a BB doc? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 >From: " Gracia " <circe@...> >I think I have had it. I had a blood draw at 8a.m. and then waited an >hour? >then was given an injection I think then another blood draw? All was >pronounced normal ( >Gracia That's the ACTH stimulation test. They actually inject you with ACTH. What I'm wondering about is once you started cortisol, if you've had your ACTH level tested. There's no injection involved. This would be likely to tell if the HPA axis is suppressed, because ACTH is to the adrenals what TSH is to the thyroid. Skipper > > > > > I think she is worried it will suppress the HPA axis. Have you ever had > > your ACTH taken? (Just the ACTH level, which can be taken at the same > > time > > as your other labs, and I'm not referring to the ACTH stim test, only >the > > ACTH level.) > > > > Skipper > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more.then map the best > > route! http://local.live.com > > > > > > > > Iodine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 yea...it is ironical. For me, Gracia...if i had a diagnosis of 's...the calculated full replacement replacement dosage for me IS 20 mg. And if I took the 30 mg. that is recommended to some folks (citing peatfield), I'd soon be developing Cushing's from over replacement. So in my case...and perhaps because i'm thinner...it really matters. cindi That > > > It's ironic isn't it? I was on the NTH list and the first person there to take H/C, and they were hearing none of what I had to say about it! > You should also be investigating iodine b/c I think it is very helpful too. I can't figure out why you care how much H/C s patients should take! Who cares?! > Gracia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 >> > Seems to make sense. However, the AM is when it's easiest for the body to > produce cortisol on its own, so do you want to supress the ACTH at that > time? Because your body is producing the cortisol, you will have higher > levels at that time, just like the circadian rhythm. Plus the larger any > single dose the more likely to have weight gain from the timing of the > dosage. In " Adrenal Fatigue " vaguely explained how those with > adrenal insufficiency could have weight gain because of the timing of the > cortisol production. I'm assuming he meant all at once, instead of spacing > it out but I could be wrong. right..time of dose...amount of dose...are all variables that can factor into suppression and whether we have side effects, etc. For instance there's data that over 10 mg. in a the AM is more associated with elevated eye pressure during the day. I think, though....it is the nightime administration of H/C that would be suppressive of the morning rise in ACTH. But i'm still figuring this part out.... > > He saw it as s couple month issue. Well that the way I always read him too....but i think some folks didn't see that part in his work until later. I also am not sure if we can take his articles and apply them to all other AF cases Without hypo. It would just seem needing to get thyroid hormone in to you and needing the H/C for that might be a little different protocol from non-hypo AF. Cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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