Re: Iodoral and progesterone

[Guest guest]

I know this guy very well from womens hormones, and everything he insists on and even his "case studies" just don't correlate with my experience and the info I get from some esteemed hormone docs. I have been to hell and back trying to figure out hormones, done every test there is 2X! and I don't think this guy would have helped me. This guy, Pat, does LOTS of saliva testing, like days of it, and then his only treatments are OTC progesterone cream and DHEA. I think he recommends cortisol but doses 10/5/2.5/2.5 mg which sure never worked for me.

The frustrating thing is that he is familiar with all the great docs--Jefferies, Hertoghe, etc but then he does his own thing.

I just wouldn't do any of the testing for hormones! I go by how I feel. The only accurate test I ever had was the 24 hr urine test from AAL http://www.antibodyassay.com That test just showed that I was low on all hormones in the cells.

Every time I did a saliva test, progesterone came back sky high and estrogen normal. BLECH neither was true, I needed huge amounts of estrogen and a little bit more progesterone.

The defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right? :)I am not doing those goofy tests again.

Gracia

>From: "Gracia" <circe@...>>>this guy is not a doctor and I don't trust him.>GraciaYou do realize the only thing he really said was that iodine could affect levels of progesterone, and that testing could be relevant? Kind of hard to develop distrust over that. Unless I'm missing something.Were Peat and Lee who started the push for bioidentical progesterone, crackpots because they suggested testing?Is Brownstein the only credible source for iodine information?Does everyone on this board hate testing so much that even suggesting it is bad?Unless someone gets a saliva test for progesterone before and after iodine treatment, I don't think they can really say if it's true or not.Blood testing was not considered accurate for progesterone by Lee and others, at least not when one is supplementing progesterone.Skipper>> >> > A doctor sent me this regarding testing and what iodoral does for> > progesterone/estrogen -> >> > "Clarification re Iodoral & P, just so no confusion.> >> > I've been saying I find Iodoral raises P but not> > necessarily from large doses, unless someone> > considers all Iodoral high dose (which would be> > the conventional view).> >> > Three representative examples.> >> > 1.) Woman age 40. High P and high suffering at> > period on Iodoral @ 1/day. Periods had been> > smooth for years after beginning low dose P cream.> >> > Doing well at half an iodoral/day.> >> > 2.) Woman age 54. High P, extended monthly> > cycle and lots of suffering on Iodoral @ 2/day.> >> > Doing well and perfect P level on Iodoral 1/day.> >> > 3.) Woman age 84.> > Improved on Iodoral @ 1/day. P normalized after> > years of too low - too high yo-yo pattern.> >> > Even better on Iodoral @ 2/day. P remained normal.> >> > Great on Iodoral @ 3/ day. P normal. Hyper-thyroid> > normalized.> >> > Crashed on Iodoral @ 4/day. P went too high.> > Thyroid went too low. Could barely function.> >> > Resumed Iodoral @ 3/day. P and thyroid normalized> > after years of trouble w/ each. All menopause> > hormones normal w/o hormone supplementation -> > at age 84.> > ____> >> > So successful Iodoral doses were 1/2, 1 & 3 per day.> >> > All got very severe problems exceeding these amounts.> >> > In other words, some in trouble at dose as low> > as one. Others only in trouble at dose of 4/day.> >> > There is no easy way to predict who will respond> > in what way.> >> > So I go up slowly. Start at 1/2. Go up slowly by> > 1/2 or 1 per step.> >> > Test thyroid by serum & saliva at each step.> >> > Test male/female hormones by saliva at each step.> >> > I will not continue with a dose that suppresses thyroid> > or pushes P too high or makes a person feel worse.> >> > With everyone there seems to be a point where it> > all comes together: patient feels good and the> > thyroid and hormone scores are correct.> >> > But there is no simple Iodoral formula to find that.> > Optimal Iodoral dose seems to vary considerably.> >> > Most common problem when that optimal dose> > is exceeded: low thyroid & /or high progesterone.> >> > I note subjective responses and work to keep the> > person happy & well. But I do Not conclude high P> > or low P based on how they feel. I determine the P> > level by objective testing.> >> > Too many report Iodoral does this or that to their> > E or P. These comments tend to be wrong and> > unfounded since so many misunderstand where> > their actual levels are when they feel this or that.> > I confirm by saliva testing.> >> > Hope that helps. "> >> > __________________________________________________________> > All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day >trial!> > >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail> >> >> >> > Iodine

[Guest guest]

>this guy is NOT a doctor. he will not say in what capacity he advises people.

Gracia

However, I've talked to no patients of the doctor, so I have no success stories. I only posted the information because it could be relevant and true. Which is why I asked the question.Skipper__________________________________________________________Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us & source=hmtagline

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[Guest guest]

This has probably already been noted here, but I thought it a good idea to post it, in case not.

>>>>

J Surg Oncol. 1996 Mar;61(3):209-13.

Related Articles,

Links

Suppressive effect of iodine on DMBA-induced breast tumor growth in the rat.Funahashi H, Imai T, Tanaka Y, Tobinaga J, Wada M, Morita T, Yamada F, Tsukamura K, Oiwa M, Kikumori T, Narita T, Takagi H.Department of Surgery II, Nagoya University School of Medicine, Japan.Concerning the suppressive effect of inorganic iodine on the growth of 7,12-dimethyl-benz(a)anthracene (DMBA)-induced breast tumor in female Sprague-Dawley (SD) rats, we previously reported that although iodine itself had a suppressive effect on the tumor growth, its effect was not as strong as that of MPA (medroxy-progesterone acetate). However, the combined medication of iodine at a low concentration + MPA showed a stronger effect than MPA alone. The purpose of the present study is to elucidate this mechanism of action by determining the uptake of the administered iodine into breast tumor tissue. Breast tumors were induced with DMBA in female SD rats, and these animals were treated with MPA + inorganic iodine at various concentrations for 4 weeks to determine tumor growth and tumor iodine content. In the comparison of tissue iodine content in growth-suppressive tumors with that in nonsuppressive tumors, the former showed a much higher iodine content. This suggests that direct uptake of inorganic iodine by breast tumors led to the suppression of tumor growth.>>>>

Jane

[Guest guest]

don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I know this guy Pat very well from another board and I find his positions problematic. Especially that he won't use more than 3 tabs Iodoral/day.

Testing is great if it works. As you know there is a difference between what's in the blood and what's getting into cells. I suspect that has always been my prob and hopefully iodine will improve that.

Anyway lots of hormone authorities don't believe in saliva testing and I have pointed that out to Pat. Womens International Pharmacy doesn't like saliva! at least the pharmacists I spoke to. I questioned them when my saliva tests came back very skewed.

Gracia

>From: "Gracia" <circe@...>>>this guy is not a doctor and I don't trust him.>GraciaYou do realize the only thing he really said was that iodine could affect levels of progesterone, and that testing could be relevant? Kind of hard to develop distrust over that. Unless I'm missing something.Were Peat and Lee who started the push for bioidentical progesterone, crackpots because they suggested testing?Is Brownstein the only credible source for iodine information?Does everyone on this board hate testing so much that even suggesting it is bad?Unless someone gets a saliva test for progesterone before and after iodine treatment, I don't think they can really say if it's true or not.Blood testing was not considered accurate for progesterone by Lee and others, at least not when one is supplementing progesterone.Skipper>> >>

..

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Gracia " <circe@...>

> don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I know this guy Pat very well

>from another board and I find his positions problematic. Especially that

>he won't use more than 3 tabs Iodoral/day.

It's not really my intention to defend him. However, as you pointed out,

he's vague as to who or what he really is. By saying he has " patients " he's

almost saying he's a doctor, yet he won't make the statement.

That being said, he didn't say in what I posted that the maximum dosage

should be 37.5. I do understand in the case studies he gave, no one did

well over that level, but those were only 3 studies and he said if testing

justifies then it's may be OK to go higher, depending on what the labs say

as well as how the patient feels.

> Testing is great if it works. As you know there is a difference

>between what's in the blood and what's getting into cells. I suspect that

>has always been my prob and hopefully iodine will improve that.

Testing is great if it works. My thyroid was initially treated because I

had elevated TSH.

Not all testing works. Even if testing works for some people, it doesn't

work for everyone because it's impossible to factor in all needed

information. Someone can show up as hyperthyroid on labs, and really only

have a Vitamin C defiiency. Langer mentioned how some patients with Vitamin

C defieincy would wind up having their thyroids removed or radiated simply

because in some cases Vitamin C defieincy could mimick hyperthyroidism.

Vitamin C also has a tremendous effect on the adrenals. Of course, there

serious mistakes aren't likely as tests really aren't that available that'll

do a good job of showing poor adrenal function.

I pursued Cortef because I didn't know what else to do, and when it was

taken, it was under 12 (11.5) I was willing to find another doctor because

the author of " From Fatigued to Fantastic " said he would give a trial of

Cortef, if it was under 12. I'm glad I read the book, I'm glad I changed to

a doctor who would give me Cortef. Viewing from the doctor's perspective on

an AM cortisol range of 2 to 22, 11.5 doesn't seem dangerously low. But, I

thought it rather absurd that the normal range could go as low as 2. That

means pretty much if you manufacture any cortisol at all, even a miniscule

amount, you're OK. Make 2 units of cortisol, or more than 10 times the

amount of 22, and either reading is OK?

The lab tests are insane at times.

> Anyway lots of hormone authorities don't believe in saliva testing and I

>have pointed that out to Pat. Womens International Pharmacy doesn't like

>saliva! at least the pharmacists I spoke to. I questioned them when my

>saliva tests came back very skewed.

Whether testing by blood, saliva, or urine, I suspect they all have

limitations. If a hormone was excreted in urine, it may not have gotten

into the cells either. If the urine levels are high, maybe that's because

it didn't go into the cells, it simply got excreted.

That doesn't mean all testing should be thrown out, it just means diagnosis

should look at test results and as my thyroid doc says, give them a weighted

effect of 5%. History is weighted at 85%, and clinical exam at 10%. The

majority of docs today, think the lab actually diagnoses patients and if the

test is in the " normal " range, they weigh that as 100% and don't have to

make any judgment about it, it's already been decided for them.

Did you know that mercury will mix with hemoglobin in the red blood cells

and cause a kind of anemia. You can find this if you know what to test for

(and could find info on that by typing in " Hal Huggins " mercury and

hemoglobin.) How many people who have breathing troubles think about their

mercury fillings?

In an area of Canada, I was told by one person that it's common knowledge of

doctors that if the patient has trouble breathing they should have their

fillings removed. She talked about how much better she could breathe after

her doctor suggested this to her.

But, in order to test for something, you have to know it's a possibility.

If progesterone isn't being absorbed or converted into the other steroid

hormones, there may still be a reason it has problems getting into the cells

or converting. It is possible a guy who really knows how to test could

figure it out, but I don't know that for sure. I know there are hormones

that help progesterone convert to estrogen and progesterone, it might be

interesting to get that tested.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

guess what, I have NEVER EVER been Dxed hypothyroid by a doc---b/c of my

TSH!!!!! Not even when I presented myself with every hypo symptom and

unable to speak in sentences. I borrowed Armour from a friend, and then

went to a more holistic doc and said I was on Armour. and got an Rx. That

doc ended up firing me!

Right now I am using Hertoghe's treatment for hormones. If I have CAH or

LOCAH (late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia), then the Rx would be

thyroid/adrenal and sex hormones, which is what I get.

Pat said on the other list he only uses up to 37.5 mg Iodoral.

Zoe glad you had such a marvelous vacation, Hawaii is one place I have never

been.

Gracia

> >From: " Gracia " <circe@...>

>

>> don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I know this guy Pat very well

>>from another board and I find his positions problematic. Especially that

>>he won't use more than 3 tabs Iodoral/day.

>

> It's not really my intention to defend him. However, as you pointed out,

> he's vague as to who or what he really is. By saying he has " patients "

> he's

> almost saying he's a doctor, yet he won't make the statement.

>

> That being said, he didn't say in what I posted that the maximum dosage

> should be 37.5. I

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Gracia " <circe@...>

>guess what, I have NEVER EVER been Dxed hypothyroid by a doc---b/c of my

>TSH!!!!!

What a surpise!!! Does that mean no one should be diagnosed by TSH, and

there's no purpose to the lab test? Of course not, without elevated TSH my

doctor probably wouldn't have been smart enought to diagnose me.

Six doctor ran thyroid tests based on my wife's symptoms. They didn't treat

her, said if it wasn't low thyroid then it was a whole bunch of other things

that they would be happy to treat separately as they needed new vacation

homes.

Her obstetrician did offer a simple solution when the thyroid came back

normal. Birth control pills. Admittedly, she improved a lot from being on

them, at least for a few years.. She didn't know she was pregnant with one

of our children for five months, because she was losing weight and feeling

better, and the five months between periods wasn't unusual. So, the pills

did help control part of her symptoms.

Actually, not long before we found real treatment for her, she had to go off

the pills because her blood pressure was escalating. I think it was because

I persuaded the doctor to put her on Synthroid, and she never did well on

it. It could have been the dose was too small. As, too low of doses can

produce hypothyroid symptoms per the literature. I'm more inclined to think

it's because her system turns so much T4 to inactive rT3 that neither

syntrhoid or Armour work that well for her. She needs timed release T3.

>Pat said on the other list he only uses up to 37.5 mg Iodoral.

No more need to talk about Pat, sorry I pasted his comments.

That doesn't mean all labs are worthless, for all people.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Specifically to iodine and progesterone:

I took, for the first time orally, ever, 75 micrograms of iodine 4 days ago.

I was Zippy the Pinhead the whole day.

Next day, i was tired, the next exhausted. I then stopped the iodine until I know more about how I should co-supplement it. today, I'm almost back to normal.

BUT, after day one, I began break-through bleeding, something I never do, which is a sign of lowered progesterone.

Also, in those three days, my breasts (hmm, this is weird to talk about) shrunk and softened. Pretty cool. Too bad I had to stop.

Any clues?

jane