Re: Excess magnesium can be a problem.

[Guest guest]

>From: " mem_mem_me " <maryellenmu@...>

>

>I am taking gynovite from optimox multi vitamins for menapausal women.

> Extra C (2000mg) and Extra Magnesium (1600 mg) My doctor wanted me

>to take a lot of magnesium. I am taking the glycinate so I do not

>have diarrhea.

says everyone needs magnesium. I don't agree with him, but at least he

seems to have a way to do an adequate test for it. Is it RBC?

The iodine doctors push magnesium, saying it's important for those on iodine

supplementation.

The adrenal fatigue doctors say the same thing.

I disagree. I think it should be tested before huge supplements are taken.

You think you have low cortisol.

High cortisol pushed out magnesium. So, if you have high cortisol, no doubt

you need supplemental magnesium.

If you have low cortisol, some sources say your magnesium levels will

already be elevated. And the symptoms of magnesium overdose are the same

nasty symptoms as from not enough.

1600 mg sounds like quite a lot for someone with low cortisol who hasn't had

their magnesium level tested.

http://www.nursing.wayne.edu/elearning/en2060/lesson2/n2060s25elec.htm

Hypermagnesia: (>2.5 mEq/L Mg). Neuromuscular weakness, particularly of the

respiratory system.

Please note that renal failure patients are particularly prone to

hypermagnesia resulting and, as such, are not given Mg preparations like

MOM.

**************************************

Did you say you needed oxygen? That'll certainly depress your respiratory

system in excess.

says the blood tests for magnesium are not very helpful, and he may be

right. At least he recommends testing. I've not done 's RBC test,

which is probably better. But, the range on the one blood test my wife and

I had confirms what I would expect from what I've read. The lab range for

magnesium was 1.7 to 2.5.

If cortisol does push out magnesium, that explains her reading right near

the bottom of 1.8. (She also had heart problems which are much better now

that she takes magnesium.)

By the same token, if low cortisol causes magnesium to be retained, that

would explain why my reading was 2.4, right near the top of the range.

The site I quoted said over 2.5 was hypermagnesia. Other sites say it has

to be higher to be a concern, but in someone with low adrenals, I would

worry about the levels. I won't take magnesium because I've read that, and

I had an epsom salts bath once and it fatigued me for days.

Excess magnesium could be part of your current problem.

http://users.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/magnesiumchloride.html

Signs of excess magnesium (hypermagnesia) can be similar to magnesium

deficiency and include changes in mental status, nausea, diarrhoea, appetite

loss, muscle weakness, difficulty breathing, extremely low blood pressure,

and irregular heartbeat.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

The only problem you would have is diarrhea. A healthy body is very capable of

expelling excess magnesium. There is the very rare hyper-magnesia that is

usually caused by intravenous magnesium infusion (but maybe transdermally

also). The antidote is chewing on some calcium pills.

Dr. Herbert C. Mansmann of the Magnesium Research Laboratory at

Jefferson University says:

" The Mg absorption from the bowels is controlled by serum Mg level and the

kidneys get rid of excess Mg during the first pass through the kidneys. B/G are

diseases of abnormal reabsorption in the kidneys. Both of these are safety

valves to prevent Mg toxicity. In transdermal absorption there is no GI

absorption restriction to depend on, protection of over dose depend on dose in

water, temperature of the water and the duration of the bath. Pray that you do

not fall asleep in the tub and that your kidneys can secrete the excess Mg. "

He also says:

" I use 4 different salt tablets every 4 hours to provide 8,000 mg of elemental

Mg/day. For about 2 years I took 16,000 mg and my electrolytes remained normal "

http://www.magnesiumresearchlab.com/

I have questioned him about his need for so much magnesium and asked some

transdermal questions but he hasn't responded yet. So maybe this issue is

similiar to iodine in that extremely high doses (16,000 mg!) are nothing to be

afraid of. That is 10 times the amount I have ever taken.

I never have said that everyone needs magnesium supplementing. I do believe

that 8 or 9 out of 10 could benefit from getting higher levels of magnesium in

their diet. It's a hard mineral to get even RDA of, so I am not sure why you

think you are brimming with magnesium.

I think that Iodine effects cell membrane permeability and hydration, allowing

more magnesium into the cell and that is what is responsible for the vivid

dreams and a sense of well being. Urine PH is perfect with Iodine

supplementing as it is while high magnesium dosing. I think there is something

to Abraham and Brownstein's theory that mag and iodine deficiency cause

thyroiditis.

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

> >From: " mem_mem_me " <maryellenmu@...>

>

> >

> >I am taking gynovite from optimox multi vitamins for menapausal women.

> > Extra C (2000mg) and Extra Magnesium (1600 mg) My doctor wanted me

> >to take a lot of magnesium. I am taking the glycinate so I do not

> >have diarrhea.

>

> says everyone needs magnesium. I don't agree with him, but at least he

> seems to have a way to do an adequate test for it. Is it RBC?

>

> The iodine doctors push magnesium, saying it's important for those on iodine

> supplementation.

>

> The adrenal fatigue doctors say the same thing.

>

> I disagree. I think it should be tested before huge supplements are taken.

>

> You think you have low cortisol.

>

> High cortisol pushed out magnesium. So, if you have high cortisol, no doubt

> you need supplemental magnesium.

>

> If you have low cortisol, some sources say your magnesium levels will

> already be elevated. And the symptoms of magnesium overdose are the same

> nasty symptoms as from not enough.

>

> 1600 mg sounds like quite a lot for someone with low cortisol who hasn't had

> their magnesium level tested.

>

> http://www.nursing.wayne.edu/elearning/en2060/lesson2/n2060s25elec.htm

> Hypermagnesia: (>2.5 mEq/L Mg). Neuromuscular weakness, particularly of the

> respiratory system.

>

> Please note that renal failure patients are particularly prone to

> hypermagnesia resulting and, as such, are not given Mg preparations like

> MOM.

> **************************************

> Did you say you needed oxygen? That'll certainly depress your respiratory

> system in excess.

>

> says the blood tests for magnesium are not very helpful, and he may be

> right. At least he recommends testing. I've not done 's RBC test,

> which is probably better. But, the range on the one blood test my wife and

> I had confirms what I would expect from what I've read. The lab range for

> magnesium was 1.7 to 2.5.

>

> If cortisol does push out magnesium, that explains her reading right near

> the bottom of 1.8. (She also had heart problems which are much better now

> that she takes magnesium.)

>

> By the same token, if low cortisol causes magnesium to be retained, that

> would explain why my reading was 2.4, right near the top of the range.

>

> The site I quoted said over 2.5 was hypermagnesia. Other sites say it has

> to be higher to be a concern, but in someone with low adrenals, I would

> worry about the levels. I won't take magnesium because I've read that, and

> I had an epsom salts bath once and it fatigued me for days.

>

> Excess magnesium could be part of your current problem.

>

> http://users.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/magnesiumchloride.html

> Signs of excess magnesium (hypermagnesia) can be similar to magnesium

> deficiency and include changes in mental status, nausea, diarrhoea, appetite

> loss, muscle weakness, difficulty breathing, extremely low blood pressure,

> and irregular heartbeat.

>

> Skipper

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

- The only problem you would have is diarrhea. A healthy body is very

capable of

> expelling excess magnesium. There is the very rare hyper-magnesia

that is

> usually caused by intravenous magnesium infusion (but maybe

transdermally

> also). The antidote is chewing on some calcium pills.

-------> I've had my heart beat very irregularly after Magnesium

baths. Didn't like it at all....but that was pre-iodine loading. I

need to try it again now.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Not sure if you read what the magnesium researcher says about Epsom Salts

baths... seems a little alarmist to me. I haven't heard about too many people

stricken in there baths after all these years of epsoms salts usage.

" In transdermal absorption there is no GI absorption restriction to depend on,

protection of over dose depend on dose in water, temperature of the water and

the duration of the bath. Pray that you do not fall asleep in the tub and that

your kidneys can secrete the excess Mg. "

Dr. Herbert C. Mansmann of the Magnesium Research Laboratory at

Jefferson University

--- Lynn <lyn122@...> wrote:

> -------> I've had my heart beat very irregularly after Magnesium

> baths. Didn't like it at all....but that was pre-iodine loading. I

> need to try it again now.

>

> Lynn

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>From: <kennio@...>

>A healthy body is very capable of

>expelling excess magnesium.

If we're healthy, we wouldn't be going to the doctor more than likely.

>There is the very rare hyper-magnesia that is

>usually caused by intravenous magnesium infusion (but maybe transdermally

>also).

If doctors worried about side effects, they'd stop giving out drugs unless

they were a matter of life or death. They call drug side effects " rare "

too, and I've yet to take one without side effects (i.e. drugs, hormones

are natural and different.)

>The antidote is chewing on some calcium pills.

That may be. That does make it rather simple.

>Dr. Herbert C. Mansmann of the Magnesium Research Laboratory at

>Jefferson University says:>

>The Mg absorption from the bowels is controlled by serum Mg level and the

k>idneys get rid of excess Mg during the first pass through the kidneys. B/G

are

>diseases of abnormal reabsorption in the kidneys. Both of these are safety

>valves to prevent Mg toxicity. In transdermal absorption there is no GI

>absorption restriction to depend on, protection of over dose depend on dose

>in

>water, temperature of the water and the duration of the bath. Pray that you

>do

>not fall asleep in the tub and that your kidneys can secrete the excess

>Mg. "

Might explain why I didn't do so well with an epsom salts bath. If you're

soaking in something, you might as well have hot water and take a little

nap.

Kidney trouble is one of the causes of hypermagnesia, and kidney problems is

in the realm of problems that can be caused by low thyroid / low adrenals.

Low cortisol is known to cause dehydration because it causes an inability

for the kidneys to concentrate urine. Since a problem eliminating magnesium

can be caused by kidney trouble, is that one of the kidney troubles that can

cause it?

Low thyroid is also linked to some kidney problems.

> So maybe this issue is

>similiar to iodine in that extremely high doses (16,000 mg!) are nothing to

>be

>afraid of. That is 10 times the amount I have ever taken.

Maybe. I've only read Derry on iodine, and he admitted that there were

people it had an adverse effect on. True, it was rare, but not everyone

could take it.

>

>I never have said that everyone needs magnesium supplementing. I do

>believe

>that 8 or 9 out of 10 could benefit from getting higher levels of magnesium

>in

>their diet.

Actually, I was hoping you would talk about the testing, as I think it's

possible this person is on too much under the circumstances. Or don't you

think the red blood cell test you talk about is capable of detecting

excessive amounts?

I wouldn't be surprised if 8 out of 10 people were deficient in magnesium.

>It's a hard mineral to get even RDA of, so I am not sure why you

>think you are brimming with magnesium.

I tried taking it a few times, and felt worse for it. That doesn't

definitively say it couldn't possibly be helpful to me, but it makes me

doubt my need for it.

Not only do I think it not a good idea to automatically take with low

cortisol, I also have low cholesterol. I don't want it any lower -

http://www.mgwater.com/rod12.shtml

Where the serum-cholesterol content is low the magnesium content is

significantly increased . . . These findings suggest that the part played by

magnesium in diet and nutrition requires further study. The possible role of

this element in cholesterol metabolism, and indirectly perhaps in

atherosclerosis [hardening of the arteries], has not been fully appreciated,

studied or recognized. "

http://mediwire.skyscape.com/main/default.aspx?p=Release & PwID=729

The statins and magnesium each work to lower cholesterol by inhibiting this

rate-limiting enzyme.

********************************************

>

>I think that Iodine effects cell membrane permeability and hydration,

>allowing

>more magnesium into the cell and that is what is responsible for the vivid

>dreams and a sense of well being.

So, the fact I dream again is likely not just from the iodine, but because I

already have enough magnesium possibly?

Urine PH is perfect with Iodine

>supplementing as it is while high magnesium dosing. I think there is

>something

>to Abraham and Brownstein's theory that mag and iodine deficiency cause

>thyroiditis.

No doubt magnesium is like a miracle drug for those who need it. However, I

think those with low cortisol or low cholesterol need to be a little careful

about taking it.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

------Skipper writes:

>Excess magnesium could be part of your current problem.http://users.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/magnesiumchloride.htmlSigns of excess magnesium (hypermagnesia) can be similar to magnesium deficiency and include changes in mental status, nausea, diarrhoea, appetite loss, muscle weakness, difficulty breathing, extremely low blood pressure, and irregular heartbeat.>

------- writes:

>The only problem you would have is diarrhea. A healthy body is very capable ofexpelling excess magnesium. There is the very rare hyper-magnesia that isusually caused by intravenous magnesium infusion (but maybe transdermallyalso). The antidote is chewing on some calcium pills.Dr. Herbert C. Mansmann of the Magnesium Research Laboratory at Jefferson University says:"The Mg absorption from the bowels is controlled by serum Mg level and thekidneys get rid of excess Mg during the first pass through the kidneys. B/G arediseases of abnormal reabsorption in the kidneys. Both of these are safetyvalves to prevent Mg toxicity.>

----------------------To and Skipper,

Re: high magnesium, low cortisol, hives

My rbc blood tests show normal magnesium, but several years ago, when first tested, mag was low and I began supplementing with it, in many forms: mag citrate and a combo mag from vrp which has 4 amino acid chelated forms of magnesium. I also took "mag c" which is magnesium ascorbate. When I began getting serious with Iodoral, I upped my dose of mag to 1200, or thereabouts. I didn't take much Calcium, which may have led to serious imbalances. My serum calcium was always in the high normal range, rbc level normal. Endo had told me NOT to supplement with calcium, and I listened. During the summer, I began to experience periods of dizziness which I couldn't explain. It finally went away when I began having some calcium (~500 mgs) with my magnesium, and the dizziness has never returned.

At the end of October, I began experiencing outbreaks of hives, which is the topic of this email.

Mid-september, my pulse was in the low 40s, and bp also quite low. I couldn't tolerate more than 15 mgs. of armour for hypothyroid. I began supplementing with h.c., hoping to eventually be able to increase tolerance for armour. Within several weeks, the hives began and for the most part were somewhat tolerable. However, by November they became severe. I began soaking in epsom salt baths and on the advice of a local pharmacist, began applying milk of magnesia to the hives, which were covering most of my body by that time.

Finally, I had a practioner muscle test me to see if I could find the source of the hives, and I came up 'weak' on every single source of magnesium I was taking. When I quit all magnesium, the hives magically cleared up! I continued my epsom soaks, as I wanted some form of magnesium but had already discontinued applying the milk of mag to my skin as it caused a horrible rash.

I really don't know what to make of this. Your posts on low cortisol/weak adrenals/high mag. might be a clue, but I don't know how exactly.

As of this writing, the hives have returned, not as severely. Yesterday, I had 1/4 tsp of buffered C, with cal/mag ascorbates. I can't tell if that is responsible for this recent outbreak. I have a nasty feeling that I have made myself hypersensitive to just about everything. I continue to think the hives also have something to do with supplementing h.c. and possibly messing with natural defenses to problems like hives. I have just started tapering down my dose of h.c. from 25 mg to 20mg/day. I am taking 90 mg of Armour and 37.5 mg of Iodoral.

Sorry for the very long post...any ideas that you have on this mystery would be very welcome.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

I have a hard time taking a lot of magnesium too. I get a dull headache and feel blah. But I don't rule it out as important.

Gracia

> says everyone needs magnesium. I don't agree with him, but at least he seems to have a way to do an adequate test for it. Is it RBC?The iodine doctors push magnesium, saying it's important for those on iodine supplementation.The adrenal fatigue doctors say the same thing.I disagree. I think it should be tested before huge supplements are taken.

..

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[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>At the end of October, I began experiencing outbreaks of hives, which is

>the topic of this email.

>

>Mid-september, my pulse was in the low 40s, and bp also quite low. I

>couldn't tolerate more than 15 mgs. of armour for hypothyroid. I began

>supplementing with h.c., hoping to eventually be able to increase

>tolerance for armour. Within several weeks, the hives began and for the

>most part were somewhat tolerable.

Since you mention hives AFTER hydrocortisone, this is a common reaction to

the yellow dye in it -

http://alternative-medicine-and-health.com/conditions/hives.htm

" FOOD COLORINGS: Tartrazine (FD & C Yellow Dye No. 5), a food dye, has been

long known to cause hives, particularly in children. This dye is added to

nearly every packaged food as well as to some drugs. People who are

sensitive to aspirin are especially likely to be sensitive to tartrazine. "

*************************************

Low pulse rate, low BP sounds like you do have low adrenals. (Not all

people with low adrenals have low pulse and BP, and high pulse rate is not

uncommon.) Anyway, unless you're a well trained endurance runner, 40 isn't

a healthy pulse.

If you do have low cortisol, part of what magnesium does is mitigate the

effect of high cortisol. Magnesium is calming and lowers BP and cortisol.

My wife takes magnesium to help keep her cortisol down. So, if your adrenal

system is already depressed, I'd think this would depress it even more.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

---original message from Skipper:

>Since you mention hives AFTER hydrocortisone, this is a common reaction to >the yellow dye in it -

I've tried cortef and plain ol' h.c. and no difference. Also, when I stopped magnesium, I was till dosing with h.c. and the hives went away, so I don't think any of the chemicals in h.c. are causing hives, but I still think there's a possible connection between dosing with h.c., low adrenals and hives--and possibly magnesium.

>If you do have low cortisol, part of what magnesium does is mitigate the >effect of high cortisol. Magnesium is calming and lowers BP and cortisol. >My wife takes magnesium to help keep her cortisol down. So, if your adrenal >system is already depressed, I'd think this would depress it even more.

This is the sort of thing that makes me really wonder about magnesium in my own case.

Thanks for your thoughts Skipper,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>I've tried cortef and plain ol' h.c. and no difference.

I'm pretty sure both Cortef and generic hydrocortisone have tartrazine. But,

if you were sensitive to it, you'd probaly notice it when taking aspirin or

eating Doritos.

>This is the sort of thing that makes me really wonder about magnesium in

>my own case.

What I wonder, is if I'm right, why the adrenal fatigue doctors seem to

recommend it. You'd think they'd have an idea if it was helpful or not.

Skipper

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Skipper,I've got this on my list of questions to ask my doc at my next visit.  She recommends compounded cortisol.LinnOn Dec 15, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Skipper Beers wrote:>From: srapp785juno>I've tried cortef and plain ol' h.c. and no difference.I'm pretty sure both Cortef and generic hydrocortisone have tartrazine. But, if you were sensitive to it, you'd probaly notice it when taking aspirin or eating Doritos.>This is the sort of thing that makes me really wonder about magnesium in>my own case.What I wonder, is if I'm right, why the adrenal fatigue doctors seem to recommend it. You'd think they'd have an idea if it was helpful or not.Skipper

[Guest guest]

>From: Linn <linnmiller@...>

>Skipper,

>

>I've got this on my list of questions to ask my doc at my next visit. She

>recommends compounded cortisol.

I think compounding is normally a waste of money, unless there's a specific

reason.

Avoiding fillers if you're sensitive to like tartrazine is one good reason.

However, not that many people are sensitive to it.

However, one pharmacy we used made timed release T3 from Cytomel. So, if

coupounding, you have to make sure they're not simply crushing up Cortef and

simply putting in a time release component, which really isn't important for

Cortef anyway.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

I have low cortisol (adrenal fatigue), and despite taking 1000 mg of

magnesium (blend of aspartate, orotate and something else), my magnesium

levels were very low in the range.

Best,

http://www.ChestnutHillDesigns.com

http://www.CurlyRescue.com

View my Blog ~ http://shellyct.blogspot.com/

If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself.

What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.

-- Hermann Hesse

>

> If you have low cortisol, some sources say your magnesium levels will

> already be elevated. And the symptoms of magnesium overdose are the same

> nasty symptoms as from not enough.

>

[Guest guest]

<<And the symptoms of magnesium overdose are the same nasty symptoms as from not enough.>>Really! Interesting. I have been taking extra magnesium for some time now. My muscles are very tight.How do you measure magnesium levels? I imagine that level in blood is not necessarily amount in cells. Am I right?AnnOn 15-Dec-06, at 10:01 PM, Ives wrote:I have low cortisol (adrenal fatigue), and despite taking 1000 mg of magnesium (blend of aspartate, orotate and something else), my magnesium levels were very low in the range.Best,http://www.ChestnutHillDesigns.comhttp://www.CurlyRescue.comView my Blog ~ http://shellyct.blogspot.com/If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.-- Hermann Hesse>> If you have low cortisol, some sources say your magnesium levels will> already be elevated. And the symptoms of magnesium overdose are the same> nasty symptoms as from not enough.>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure. My doctor ran a Red Blood Cell Analysis test, it wsa rather expensive, around $250, but its a test done in a special way... I've forgotten the specifics, but I can look it up if you like. (Too lazy right now *s*).

Best,http://www.ChestnutHillDesigns.comhttp://www.CurlyRescue.comView my Blog ~ http://shellyct.blogspot.com/

If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us. -- Hermann Hesse

Really! Interesting. I have been taking extra magnesium for some time now. My muscles are very tight.

How do you measure magnesium levels? I imagine that level in blood is not necessarily amount in cells. Am I right?

Ann

[Guest guest]

Spectracell Labs does a WBC analysis that runs about $75, includes many vitamin and mineral levels.  LinnOn Dec 16, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Ives wrote:I'm not sure.  My doctor ran a Red Blood Cell Analysis test, it wsa rather expensive, around $250, but its a test done in a special way... I've forgotten the specifics, but I can look it up if you like.  (Too lazy right now *s*). Best,http://www.ChestnutHillDesigns.comhttp://www.CurlyRescue.comView my Blog ~ http://shellyct.blogspot.com/ .