Re: You have them running scared

[Guest guest]

I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a big fat ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but that is another story.

Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take care of people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in early sobriety is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire the skills to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly in professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they are doing. A regular urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to demonstrate abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does that, and sure we need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are acceptable. And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of participants to see what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables exist. And monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,

need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns and not ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with all that. And in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. It's how you react to it that shows one's health.

By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices especially natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just like at the brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has alcohol in it, and yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in them but there are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how about some Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're ingesting or using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or don't use it.

But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help each other look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The testing isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually prove abstinence credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them stacks of tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't have any alcohol in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. So now doors are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a urine study that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.

Seacrest...out.

[Guest guest]

Someone has hurt you before haven't they?

Now remember,...The secret recipe is only for masking alcohol usage. It won't work for crack.

[Guest guest]

maybe its because he's a man and that might be why his tests are negative...we have a good sized group here lets start some polls...are we sure he's not Ralph ???

[Guest guest]

--- Well, if you're not a fat, ugly chick then you must be a limp

dick impotent little man, good to know, now I can address you as

he. And I don't believe for one second you had " many of those (fat,

ugly chicks) in your day " . You only wish. Remember, you are not at

a cult meeting giving a lead to a buch of retards. Nobody here

believes your sexual conquest stories. All of you freaks get up

there and brag about how many women you've had. I'm here to tell ya

asshole, even fat ugly chicks require a hard dick.

I can only touch nerves that are exposed as well, and " thou doeth

protest too much " about having a vested interest. WHATEVAH.

OH MY GAWD!! Non alcoholic beer has alcohol in it? No shit

Sherlock. These people have already investigated everthing that

could cause them a false positive. Do you think they are stoooopid?

They don't need some self-righteous, pious cult member telling them

they aren't diligent enough. And maybe that Tylenol did cause

Moncias (or was it Marsha) elevated level. Who the hell are you?

The Oracle of Delphi? You know it all? And who is this " we " shit,

you got a mouse in your pocket?

You say you wanted a more " focused discussion " . I say, Bullshit.

Have you read some of the indepth posts these people have posted.

It is a good " focused " discussion. What you want, my little limp

dicked friend, is for them to start speaking in Newspeak (From the

Orwell novel 1984 incase you havent read anything but the Beeg

Book) I am powerless, I am no good, I'm a liar, I'm in denial, I

will bend over and take it up the ass in the name of recovery (not

that you could get it up to do that, but you get the point) You

want them humble, shamed, guilty and more amendable to manipulation

so they won't sue your sorry 12-steppin ass.

And questioning your sobriety? Really limpy, nobody gives a shit if

you drink a secret beer or not. And your big stack of drug tests

doesn't prove shit now does it? These people have positives and

they didn't drink, so maybe you have negatives and did drink.

Besides, if you're using my potion (which really pisses me off you

posted the recipe by the way) you will always have a negative test.

Now off ya go Limpy, go sell your snake oil to someone who's buying.

In Ethylglucuronide-EtG , rrpmd@... wrote:

>

> I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a

big fat

> ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but

that is another

> story.

> Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take

care of

> people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in

early sobriety

> is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire

the skills

> to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly

in

> professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they

are doing. A regular

> urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to

demonstrate

> abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does

that, and sure we

> need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are

acceptable.

> And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of

participants to see

> what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables

exist. And

> monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,

> need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns

and not

> ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with

all that. And

> in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem.

It's how you

> react to it that shows one's health.

>

> By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices

especially

> natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just

like at the

> brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has

alcohol in it, and

> yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in

them but there

> are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how

about some

> Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're

ingesting or

> using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or

don't use it.

>

> But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help

each other

> look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The

testing

> isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually

prove abstinence

> credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them

stacks of

> tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't

have any alcohol

> in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week.

So now doors

> are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a

urine study

> that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.

>

> Seacrest...out.

>

[Guest guest]

--- Limpy, Limpy, how cute. But, your psychobabble bullshit doesn't

work on me. Remember, I DIDN'T DRINK THE KOOL AID. DUHHHHHH

Of course I know the secret recipe is only for alcohol, I'm the one

who invented it dumbass. Geezus Katy Christ. I have a different

potion for crack. Christ, do I have to spell eveything out for you?

I shore do hope you aint no " counselor " . Oops, me thinks you are.

Get a real job eh?

In Ethylglucuronide-EtG , rrpmd@... wrote:

>

> Someone has hurt you before haven't they?

>

> Now remember,...The secret recipe is only for masking alcohol usage.

It

> won't work for crack.

>

[Guest guest]

You're right, we've got over 100 members now...That'd probably be the biggest EtG study conducted to date! [i couldn't resist...Sorry RRP, I'll try to refocus....]

Re: Re: You have them running scared

maybe its because he's a man and that might be why his tests are negative...we have a good sized group here lets start some polls...are we sure he's not Ralph ???

[Guest guest]

Yes we have been sharing what we find however, is it fair to prosecute someone on such a poorly researched test?? Don't you think those administering the test have an obligation to inform? That is the problem with most of us here it is strictly a positive test and we are persecuted for a number of a test. Re: You have them running scared

I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a big fat ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but that is another story.

Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take care of people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in early sobriety is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire the skills to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly in professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they are doing. A regular urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to demonstrate abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does that, and sure we need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are acceptable. And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of participants to see what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables exist. And monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,

need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns and not ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with all that. And in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. It's how you react to it that shows one's health.

By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices especially natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just like at the brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has alcohol in it, and yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in them but there are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how about some Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're ingesting or using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or don't use it.

But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help each other look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The testing isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually prove abstinence credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them stacks of tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't have any alcohol in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. So now doors are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a urine study that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.

Seacrest...out.

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

Just google "motrin methylation", that is what my research suggests causes positives with Tylenol! Before you go around giving advice, maybe you should show more integrity than the idiots that introduced this life, liberty and career threatening test to the U.S. Lets face it, you are just another neo-prob control freak that relies on science that does not meet Daubert standards, children are watching their parents get hauled off for cleaning a bathroom ( Skipper had a BAC of .02 from using Purell, how was that metabolized?) and you defend the program, you interest is in money and you rely on relapse for more. Genius plan I must say, lacking in the interest of humanity, but genius. Well, I've contacted the FTC with many quotes from Skipper and Kabat, and suggest everyone here do the same! Marcellus

[Guest guest]

Marcellus,

Could you post the FTC site for complaints?

Lorie

Re: You have them running scared

Just google "motrin methylation", that is what my research suggests causes positives with Tylenol! Before you go around giving advice, maybe you should show more integrity than the idiots that introduced this life, liberty and career threatening test to the U.S. Lets face it, you are just another neo-prob control freak that relies on science that does not meet Daubert standards, children are watching their parents get hauled off for cleaning a bathroom ( Skipper had a BAC of .02 from using Purell, how was that metabolized?) and you defend the program, you interest is in money and you rely on relapse for more. Genius plan I must say, lacking in the interest of humanity, but genius. Well, I've contacted the FTC with many quotes from Skipper and Kabat, and suggest everyone here do the same! Marcellus

[Guest guest]

Well said & well taken, . Thank you."Moering, " <rmoering@...> wrote: Perhaps the members of this group can get back to discussing the important things about EtG rather than stooping low and getting into the childish behavior of name calling and insulting behaviors. My thoughts were “we’re all professionals,” so why

don’t we get back to being just that. At times members of this group should be allowed to post “controversial” points of view. Rather than getting into name calling and being defensive about individual situations, why don’t members of this group do what I have seen you do – present evidence to the contrary of the controversial statements. Professionals disagree all the time and it is when open debate over controversial issues is allowed to take place without childish reprisals and name callings that progress can be made. I’ve not hear anyone on this listserve disagree that more research needs to be done. The

question is how do we go about getting the funding? As much as you hate the labs for the EtG results and whatever other reason(s) you may have, the truth is they will most likely be major players in any research conducted. There appear to be individuals on this site with various abilities (e.g., Lori seems very up-to-date about legal issues and others may be better at research issues). Why don’t these individuals start designing projects that will meet the rigors of the scientific communities and satisfy the various boards? I suggest members of this group not just use this listserve as a place to bitch, moan, groan, dump, or etc…, but as a place to put ideas together that may be researched or otherwise used in a meaningful way. Just my 2 cents. Take it, leave it, criticize me, or whatever…… From: Ethylglucuronide-EtG [mailto:Ethylglucuronide-EtG ] On Behalf Of madisonxyz2000Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:29 PMEthylglucuronide-EtG Subject: Re: You have them running scared --- Well, if you're not a fat, ugly chick then you must be a limp dick impotent little man, good to know, now I can address you as he. And I don't believe for one second you had "many of those (fat, ugly chicks) in your day". You only wish. Remember, you are not at a cult meeting giving a lead to a buch of retards. Nobody here believes your sexual conquest stories. All of you freaks get up there and brag about how many women you've had. I'm here to tell ya asshole, even fat ugly chicks require a hard dick.I can only touch nerves that are exposed as well, and

"thou doeth protest too much" about having a vested interest. WHATEVAH.OH MY GAWD!! Non alcoholic beer has alcohol in it? No shit Sherlock. These people have already investigated everthing that could cause them a false positive. Do you think they are stoooopid?They don't need some self-righteous, pious cult member telling them they aren't diligent enough. And maybe that Tylenol did cause Moncias (or was it Marsha) elevated level. Who the hell are you? The Oracle of Delphi? You know it all? And who is this "we" shit, you got a mouse in your pocket? You say you wanted a more "focused discussion". I say, Bullshit.Have you read some of the indepth posts these people have posted. It is a good "focused" discussion. What you want, my little limp dicked friend, is for them to start speaking in Newspeak (From the Orwell novel 1984 incase you havent read anything but the Beeg Book) I am powerless, I am no good, I'm

a liar, I'm in denial, I will bend over and take it up the ass in the name of recovery (not that you could get it up to do that, but you get the point) You want them humble, shamed, guilty and more amendable to manipulation so they won't sue your sorry 12-steppin ass.And questioning your sobriety? Really limpy, nobody gives a shit if you drink a secret beer or not. And your big stack of drug tests doesn't prove shit now does it? These people have positives and they didn't drink, so maybe you have negatives and did drink. Besides, if you're using my potion (which really pisses me off you posted the recipe by the way) you will always have a negative test.Now off ya go Limpy, go sell your snake oil to someone who's buying.In Ethylglucuronide-EtG , rrpmd@... wrote:>> I can only touch nerves that are there to

touch, and no I'm not a big fat > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but that is another > story.> Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take care of > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in early sobriety > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire the skills > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly in > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they are doing. A regular > urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to demonstrate > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does that, and sure we > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are acceptable. > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of participants to see > what metabolism, race,

gender and offending agent variables exist. And > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,> need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns and not > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with all that. And > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. It's how you > react to it that shows one's health.> > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices especially > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just like at the > brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has alcohol in it, and > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in them but there > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how about some > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're ingesting or >

using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or don't use it.> > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help each other > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The testing > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually prove abstinence > credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them stacks of > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't have any alcohol > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. So now doors > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a urine study > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.> > Seacrest...out.> ********************************************************************************************The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and found that it violates the USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It contains a virus, (2) It is an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile content. The specific reason is shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was found and could not be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have any questions, please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.********************************************************************************************\HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon, Object Removed: 1 'img' __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr. Moering. I don't think you all know the extent we have

already gone to. We are NOT here to bitch and play victim....I am

living in the solution, NOT the problem. Our letters we wrote about

a year ago has been the catalyst to stimulate interest and analysis

of this test by SAMHSA. It was several of us who signed up for

research which yielded some positive results in rehab situations. We

are continuing to monitor the progress on possible research....which

does NOT involve the labs by the way....the biggest prospective taker

on funding research is the US airforce or navy (or some portion of

the military). I have done as much to prove my innocence as I

possibly can do...including passing a lie detector test at the advise

of Dr. Skipper. There is MUCH that we are doing that no one sees

behind the scenes. I think I have proven my recovery at my hearing

and that is why the prosectuting attorney in a closing statement

said 'this is NOT about relapse....it is about using alcohol in SOME

form'. I am not proud of flying off at Dr. ...however, not

everyone in this group knows the whole stories....how other boards

are using this test only punitively as a device for diagnosis and

license suspension. Dr. asked us to look at the board's point

of view....perhaps it should go both ways. Statements of denial and

poor insight are very harsh judgement in light of not knowing facts.

I do appreciate what you have said and agree...this discussion has to

get back on track...perhaps EVERYONE needs to go to bed tonight and

in meditation ask for a different perspective....walk a mile in the

other person's shoes! Thanks,

> >

> > I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a

> big fat

> > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but

> that is another

> > story.

> > Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take

> care of

> > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in

> early sobriety

> > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire

> the skills

> > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly

> in

> > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they

> are doing. A regular

> > urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to

> demonstrate

> > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does

> that, and sure we

> > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are

> acceptable.

> > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of

> participants to see

> > what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables

> exist. And

> > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,

> > need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch

patterns

> and not

> > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with

> all that. And

> > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem.

> It's how you

> > react to it that shows one's health.

> >

> > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices

> especially

> > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just

> like at the

> > brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has

> alcohol in it, and

> > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in

> them but there

> > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how

> about some

> > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're

> ingesting or

> > using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or

> don't use it.

> >

> > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help

> each other

> > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The

> testing

> > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually

> prove abstinence

> > credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them

> stacks of

> > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't

> have any alcohol

> > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week.

> So now doors

> > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a

> urine study

> > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.

> >

> > Seacrest...out.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

**********************************************************************

**

> ********************

> The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and

found

> that it

> violates the

> USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It

> contains a virus, (2)

> It is

> an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile content.

The

> specific reason is

> shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was

found

> and could not

> be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have

any

> questions,

> please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.

>

**********************************************************************

**

> ********************

> \HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon,

Object

> Removed: 1 'img'

>

[Guest guest]

Sure can.

https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01

Marcellus

[Guest guest]

great point nancy...i asked over 24 hours ago the people on this forun who thought EtG was accurate,sensitive,and specific to post up something up against the who basel post by lorie showing in several hundred patients rates of 60% -90% only...so the converse would be that 10-40% of EtG tests are not accurate, sensitive,or specific..this is the critical point... no one has posted anything to suggest the above is not true...we are simply told that is the way it is,live with it,accept it,do more research...the point remains that lives are being ruined by misuse of a faulty test and we must fearlessly and factually take steps to change things... i agree with lorie that the LABS improperly marketing an inaccurate test have the greatest responsibility...they are the most legally

vulnerable and must be accountable to their shareholders or lose company value...perhaps we should focus more of our efforts there...just a thought... regards,robin nautiques5 <nautiques5@...> wrote: Thank you Dr. Moering. I don't think you all know the extent we have already gone to. We are NOT here to bitch and play victim....I am living in the solution, NOT the problem. Our letters we wrote about a year ago has been the catalyst to stimulate interest and analysis

of this test by SAMHSA. It was several of us who signed up for research which yielded some positive results in rehab situations. We are continuing to monitor the progress on possible research....which does NOT involve the labs by the way....the biggest prospective taker on funding research is the US airforce or navy (or some portion of the military). I have done as much to prove my innocence as I possibly can do...including passing a lie detector test at the advise of Dr. Skipper. There is MUCH that we are doing that no one sees behind the scenes. I think I have proven my recovery at my hearing and that is why the prosectuting attorney in a closing statement said 'this is NOT about relapse....it is about using alcohol in SOME form'. I am not proud of flying off at Dr. ...however, not everyone in this group knows the whole stories....how other boards are using this test only punitively as a device for

diagnosis and license suspension. Dr. asked us to look at the board's point of view....perhaps it should go both ways. Statements of denial and poor insight are very harsh judgement in light of not knowing facts. I do appreciate what you have said and agree...this discussion has to get back on track...perhaps EVERYONE needs to go to bed tonight and in meditation ask for a different perspective....walk a mile in the other person's shoes! Thanks, > >> > I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a > big fat > > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but > that is another > > story.> > Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take > care of > > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in > early sobriety > > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire > the skills > > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly > in > > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they > are doing. A regular > > urine

alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to > demonstrate > > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does > that, and sure we > > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are > acceptable. > > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of > participants to see > > what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables > exist. And > > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,> > need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns > and not > > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with > all that. And > > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. > It's how you > > react to it that shows one's health.> > > > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit

juices > especially > > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just > like at the > > brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has > alcohol in it, and > > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in > them but there > > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how > about some > > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're > ingesting or > > using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or > don't use it.> > > > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help > each other > > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The > testing > > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually > prove abstinence > > credibly. If anyone questions my

sobriety I can now show them > stacks of > > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't > have any alcohol > > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. > So now doors > > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a > urine study > > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.> > > > Seacrest...out.> >> > > > > > ************************************************************************> ********************> The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and found> that it > violates the > USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It> contains a virus, (2) > It is > an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile

content. The> specific reason is > shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was found> and could not > be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have any> questions, > please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.> ************************************************************************> ********************> \HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon, Object> Removed: 1 'img'>

[Guest guest]

RRPMD offered this:

"And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same."

Home pregnancy tests boast up to 99% specificity (A 1986 study showed an accuracy range of only 46-89%, attributable to a total compliance with test instructions of only 32%--Test accuracy was directly related to the educational level of the user. This shouldn't be a factor with EtG in a high complexity lab.)

Quick strep test specificities range from 88.5% to 100%.

These numbers seem quite a bit higher than for EtG, which has a specificity of only 68% for its ability to distinguish between individuals sober > 4 days versus individuals drinking in the recent 4 days. Any comments?

Lorie

Re: Re: You have them running scared

great point nancy...i asked over 24 hours ago the people on this forun who

thought EtG was accurate,sensitive,and specific to post up something up

against the who basel post by lorie showing in several hundred patients rates of 60%

-90% only...so the converse would be that 10-40% of EtG tests are not accurate,

sensitive,or specific..this is the critical point...

no one has posted anything to suggest the above is not true...we are simply told that

is the way it is,live with it,accept it,do more research...the point remains that lives are

being ruined by misuse of a faulty test and we must fearlessly and factually take

steps to change things...

i agree with lorie that the LABS improperly marketing an inaccurate test have the

greatest responsibility...they are the most legally vulnerable and must be accountable

to their shareholders or lose company value...perhaps we should focus more of

our efforts there...just a thought...

regards,robin nautiques5 <nautiques5@...> wrote:

Thank you Dr. Moering. I don't think you all know the extent we have already gone to. We are NOT here to bitch and play victim....I am living in the solution, NOT the problem. Our letters we wrote about a year ago has been the catalyst to stimulate interest and analysis of this test by SAMHSA. It was several of us who signed up for research which yielded some positive results in rehab situations. We are continuing to monitor the progress on possible research....which does NOT involve the labs by the way....the biggest prospective taker on funding research is the US airforce or navy (or some portion of the military). I have done as much to prove my innocence as I possibly can do...including passing a lie detector test at the advise of Dr. Skipper. There is MUCH that we are doing that no one sees behind the scenes. I think I have proven my recovery at my hearing and that is why the prosectuting attorney in a closing statement said 'this is NOT about relapse....it is about using alcohol in SOME form'. I am not proud of flying off at Dr. ...however, not everyone in this group knows the whole stories....how other boards are using this test only punitively as a device for diagnosis and license suspension. Dr. asked us to look at the board's point of view....perhaps it should go both ways. Statements of denial and poor insight are very harsh judgement in light of not knowing facts. I do appreciate what you have said and agree...this discussion has to get back on track...perhaps EVERYONE needs to go to bed tonight and in meditation ask for a different perspective....walk a mile in the other person's shoes! Thanks, > >> > I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a > big fat > > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but > that is another > > story.> > Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take > care of > > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in > early sobriety > > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire > the skills > > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly > in > > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they > are doing. A regular > > urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to > demonstrate > > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does > that, and sure we > > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are > acceptable. > > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of > participants to see > > what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables > exist. And > > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,> > need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns > and not > > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with > all that. And > > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. > It's how you > > react to it that shows one's health.> > > > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices > especially > > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just > like at the > > brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has > alcohol in it, and > > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in > them but there > > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how > about some > > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're > ingesting or > > using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or > don't use it.> > > > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help > each other > > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The > testing > > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually > prove abstinence > > credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them > stacks of > > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't > have any alcohol > > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. > So now doors > > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a > urine study > > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.> > > > Seacrest...out.> >> > > > > > ************************************************************************> ********************> The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and found> that it > violates the > USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It> contains a virus, (2) > It is > an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile content. The> specific reason is > shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was found> and could not > be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have any> questions, > please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.> ************************************************************************> ********************> \HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon, Object> Removed: 1 'img'>

[Guest guest]

good point backed up by the 2004 WHO basel study posted previously by you,lorie... it seems to me that EtG is being marketed by the lab as having the accuracy of a dna test when it's s & s clearly is far from that 60-90% at best...and then there is collector error,lab error,chain of custody error...i think that the boards are falling prey to the lab companies marketing for financial gain...they do not understand or care about the total clinical picture and other biomarkers that would be better...regards,robin...i will be travelling for a couple of weeks,will try to check this site when i can... Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...> wrote: RRPMD offered this: "And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same." Home pregnancy tests boast up to 99% specificity (A 1986 study showed an accuracy range of only 46-89%, attributable to a total compliance with test instructions of only 32%--Test accuracy was directly related to the educational level of the user. This shouldn't be a factor with EtG in a high complexity lab.) Quick strep test specificities range from 88.5% to 100%. These numbers seem quite a bit higher than for EtG, which has a specificity of only

68% for its ability to distinguish between individuals sober > 4 days versus individuals drinking in the recent 4 days. Any comments? Lorie Re: Re: You have them running scared great point nancy...i asked over 24 hours ago the people on this forun who thought EtG was accurate,sensitive,and specific to post up something up against the who basel post by lorie showing in several hundred patients rates of 60% -90% only...so the converse would be that 10-40% of EtG tests are not accurate, sensitive,or specific..this is the critical point... no one has posted anything to suggest the above is not true...we are simply told that is the way it is,live with it,accept it,do more research...the point remains that lives are being ruined by misuse of a faulty test and we must fearlessly and factually take steps to change things... i agree with lorie that the LABS improperly marketing an inaccurate test have the greatest

responsibility...they are the most legally vulnerable and must be accountable to their shareholders or lose company value...perhaps we should focus more of our efforts there...just a thought... regards,robin nautiques5 <nautiques5@...> wrote: Thank you Dr. Moering. I don't think you all know the extent we have already gone to. We are NOT here to bitch and play victim....I am living in the solution, NOT the problem. Our letters we wrote about a year ago has been the catalyst to stimulate interest and analysis of this test by SAMHSA. It was several of us who signed up for research which yielded some positive results in rehab situations. We are continuing to monitor the progress on possible research....which does NOT involve the labs

by the way....the biggest prospective taker on funding research is the US airforce or navy (or some portion of the military). I have done as much to prove my innocence as I possibly can do...including passing a lie detector test at the advise of Dr. Skipper. There is MUCH that we are doing that no one sees behind the scenes. I think I have proven my recovery at my hearing and that is why the prosectuting attorney in a closing statement said 'this is NOT about relapse....it is about using alcohol in SOME form'. I am not proud of flying off at Dr. ...however, not everyone in this group knows the whole stories....how other boards are using this test only punitively as a device for diagnosis and license suspension. Dr. asked us to look at the board's point of view....perhaps it should go both ways. Statements of denial and poor insight are very harsh judgement in light of not knowing facts. I do appreciate what

you have said and agree...this discussion has to get back on track...perhaps EVERYONE needs to go to bed tonight and in meditation ask for a different perspective....walk a mile in the other person's shoes! Thanks, > >> > I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a > big fat > > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but > that is another > > story.> > Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take > care of > > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in > early sobriety > > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire > the skills > > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly > in > > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they > are doing. A regular > > urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to > demonstrate > > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG

does > that, and sure we > > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are > acceptable. > > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of > participants to see > > what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables > exist. And > > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,> > need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns > and not > > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with > all that. And > > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. > It's how you > > react to it that shows one's health.> > > > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices > especially > > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just > like at the > > brewery, and

vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has > alcohol in it, and > > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in > them but there > > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how > about some > > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're > ingesting or > > using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or > don't use it.> > > > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help > each other > > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The > testing > > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually > prove abstinence > > credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them > stacks of > > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't > have any alcohol

> > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. > So now doors > > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a > urine study > > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.> > > > Seacrest...out.> >> > > > > > ************************************************************************> ********************> The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and found> that it > violates the > USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It> contains a virus, (2) > It is > an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile content. The> specific reason is > shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was found> and could not

> be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have any> questions, > please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.> ************************************************************************> ********************> \HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon, Object> Removed: 1 'img'>

[Guest guest]

I remember Skipper used to say that LC/MS is 100% accurate (i.e. they are looking at the actual molecule and it is present). With immunoassay tests (like the quick strep), you are concerned about the specificity of the reagent. You're not dealing with that in mass spec.

Could there be two separate issues here? And maybe the monitoring agencies are getting these mixed up (or the labs are using a bait and switch?)

The sensitivity/specificity of the testing methodology

The sensitivity/specificity of the test itself in determining relapse

Re: Re: You have them running scared

great point nancy...i asked over 24 hours ago the people on this forun who

thought EtG was accurate,sensitive,and specific to post up something up

against the who basel post by lorie showing in several hundred patients rates of 60%

-90% only...so the converse would be that 10-40% of EtG tests are not accurate,

sensitive,or specific..this is the critical point...

no one has posted anything to suggest the above is not true...we are simply told that

is the way it is,live with it,accept it,do more research...the point remains that lives are

being ruined by misuse of a faulty test and we must fearlessly and factually take

steps to change things...

i agree with lorie that the LABS improperly marketing an inaccurate test have the

greatest responsibility...they are the most legally vulnerable and must be accountable

to their shareholders or lose company value...perhaps we should focus more of

our efforts there...just a thought...

regards,robin nautiques5 <nautiques5@...> wrote:

Thank you Dr. Moering. I don't think you all know the extent we have already gone to. We are NOT here to bitch and play victim....I am living in the solution, NOT the problem. Our letters we wrote about a year ago has been the catalyst to stimulate interest and analysis of this test by SAMHSA. It was several of us who signed up for research which yielded some positive results in rehab situations. We are continuing to monitor the progress on possible research....which does NOT involve the labs by the way....the biggest prospective taker on funding research is the US airforce or navy (or some portion of the military). I have done as much to prove my innocence as I possibly can do...including passing a lie detector test at the advise of Dr. Skipper. There is MUCH that we are doing that no one sees behind the scenes. I think I have proven my recovery at my hearing and that is why the prosectuting attorney in a closing statement said 'this is NOT about relapse....it is about using alcohol in SOME form'. I am not proud of flying off at Dr. ...however, not everyone in this group knows the whole stories....how other boards are using this test only punitively as a device for diagnosis and license suspension. Dr. asked us to look at the board's point of view....perhaps it should go both ways. Statements of denial and poor insight are very harsh judgement in light of not knowing facts. I do appreciate what you have said and agree...this discussion has to get back on track...perhaps EVERYONE needs to go to bed tonight and in meditation ask for a different perspective....walk a mile in the other person's shoes! Thanks, > >> > I can only touch nerves that are there to touch, and no I'm not a > big fat > > ugly chick but I've had a few... back when I was drinking. but > that is another > > story.> > Look, I have no vested interest in any ETG testing but I do take > care of > > people who have substance abuse issues and testing, especially in > early sobriety > > is an important aspect of keeping people sober until they acquire > the skills > > to take care of whatever other issues they need to. Particularly > in > > professionals who have a lot to lose if they continue what they > are doing. A regular > > urine alcohol is only positive for a few hours. In a program to > demonstrate > > abstinence, we need a way to demonstrate abstinence. ETG does > that, and sure we > > need to know more about incidental contact and what levels are > acceptable. > > And we probably need to do studies with large numbers of > participants to see > > what metabolism, race, gender and offending agent variables > exist. And > > monitoring programs, both professional and court-based,> > need to look at positives in a more relaxed way and watch patterns > and not > > ruin people's careers over single or low positives. I agree with > all that. And > > in taking care of people, even a relapse shouldn't be a problem. > It's how you > > react to it that shows one's health.> > > > By the way, non-alcoholic beer has alcohol in it, fruit juices > especially > > natural can ferment with existing yeast and make alcohol, just > like at the > > brewery, and vanilla has alcohol in it, and lemon extract has > alcohol in it, and > > yes some cleaning supplies and hygiene products have alcohol in > them but there > > are plenty of alternatives. Chronic Tylenol? ..please... how > about some > > Motrin....it actually works. It is our job to know what we're > ingesting or > > using and if you don't know about something,... look it up or > don't use it.> > > > But this is what I wanted... a more focused discussion to help > each other > > look out for things, or products or ingredients that convert. The > testing > > isn't going away because it is the first test that can actually > prove abstinence > > credibly. If anyone questions my sobriety I can now show them > stacks of > > tests that prove for the 5-7 days prior to each test, I didn't > have any alcohol > > in my system. and that helps me! And I test nearly every week. > So now doors > > are open that weren't before, when the only proof I had was a > urine study > > that only shows I didn't drink for the last two hours.> > > > Seacrest...out.> >> > > > > > ************************************************************************> ********************> The USF Health Mail Protection System has scanned this email and found> that it > violates the > USF Health Mail Guidelines for one of the following reasons: (1) It> contains a virus, (2) > It is > an attempt to relay mail, or (3) It contains other hostile content. The> specific reason is > shown in the details listed below. Please note that if a virus was found> and could not > be removed, it was deleted. For further information or if you have any> questions, > please contact the USF Health IT Help Desk at (813) 974-6288.> ************************************************************************> ********************> \HTML Active Content: Found invalid IMG Tag, Found Web-beacon, Object> Removed: 1 'img'>