Sulfur

[Guest guest]

Hi Moria,

>If he dislikes all these foods it makes me think maybe he doesn't

>need more sulfur. I may be wrong, but that's my thought

Actually I'm not sure if it's the taste he dislikes or the texture and

most of all the smell of these foods. Like me, Denis has a really

sensitive nose Many times he would refuse to even taste a food,

once he feels the smell. I can see him trying the food, you know... I

mean smelling it. I tried many times to hide the smell, but it's not

always easy.

>well then I will wish you good luck!

Thanks a lot Moria

I have to say that I finally found out how I can find the salt for the

bath. See, again, the problem is that I've been to so many pharmacies

asking about it and nobody knew what's the magnesium sulfate.

I wonder why LOL

Somebody told me that usually magnesium sulfate has another name used.

It makes sense I bet now everybody will know what I ask for.

>Valentina, you may have to get in the habit of saying " I couldn't

>find a source so far in Eastern Europe, although I know I could

>order from the US " .

LOL!! I might do that

I am sorry... I realize people cannot possibly know where I am from.

Thanks a lot to everybody who tried to help me find the products

suggesting places where I could buy them. I really appreciate it, but

for me it's really REALLY difficult to buy these products from the US.

As I said, we don't use credit cards here, and also, to write a check

and send it, believe it or not, would take at least 3-4 weeks

(not to mention that in order to do that, I would have to provide the

bank with an invoice. so the store would have to give me an invoice

before I buy the product)

I can find a way to buy the products though if there really is no

other option.

Valentina

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>irregardless of our ethnocentricities

>Magnesium sulfate should be easy to find.

Yes , you are right! It should be very easy to find.

Just that, as I said earlier, we use here another name for it. I can

understand this. What I don't understand is how is it possible for a

pharmacist to not know that actually magnesium sulfate is that...

" other name " I bet that tomorrow, if I will go to pharmacy and will

ask them about this " other name " they will know immediately about it.

Valentina

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[Guest guest]

Hi Shari,

I would suggest you to be careful with the sulfury foods. You will

definitely have to try them, but just be careful.

I am not sure how fast should the effects be seen after you give your

kids this kinds of foods, but I had an ugly " surprise " today, after I

tried these foods on Denis. Not sure if it's the sulfur or anything

else, but I think it must be the sulfur!

Yesterday I gave him cabbage and eggs and... since last evening it's

like he went back a month ago. Last evening he devastated my house, he

took out all his toys, all his collections of cards and pictures, and

threw them all around... all day today he did the same thing... Also

he stopped talking, communicating, he had some really ugly tantrums,

he gets aggravated so fast without reason, and the thing that bothers

me the most is the fact that he is again not interested in anything

anymore... he's not reacting anymore to a lot of things... Today he

stayed all day in font of the tv listening music and lining up cards

in perfect long lines. He is now, today, like he was a month ago.

Also, yesterday he was constipated and today his stool half looked

normal and half was soft and had a weird color.

So... I don't know if it was the sulfur or not, but I didn't make any

other change in his diet.

Just wanted to let you know, so you'll be prepared in case...

Have a nice day Shari.

Valentina

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[Guest guest]

Valentina- Hi Thanks for sharing, a question or few , Is your son on a

diet/GFCF? Egg is a big allergy food, has he been tested? That sounds

like an allergy reaction. My son eats eggs with no problem, but I doubt

I will be able to get Cabbage past him! I will have to try, I am going

to the list Moira sent, I will have to see about which foods he might

try..ANYONE try MSM???Isn't that sulphur???-Shari

[ ] Re: sulfur

Hi Shari,

I would suggest you to be careful with the sulfury foods. You will

definitely have to try them, but just be careful.

I am not sure how fast should the effects be seen after you give your

kids this kinds of foods, but I had an ugly " surprise " today, after I

tried these foods on Denis. Not sure if it's the sulfur or anything

else, but I think it must be the sulfur!

Yesterday I gave him cabbage and eggs and... since last evening it's

like he went back a month ago. Last evening he devastated my house, he

took out all his toys, all his collections of cards and pictures, and

threw them all around... all day today he did the same thing... Also

he stopped talking, communicating, he had some really ugly tantrums,

he gets aggravated so fast without reason, and the thing that bothers

me the most is the fact that he is again not interested in anything

anymore... he's not reacting anymore to a lot of things... Today he

stayed all day in font of the tv listening music and lining up cards

in perfect long lines. He is now, today, like he was a month ago.

Also, yesterday he was constipated and today his stool half looked

normal and half was soft and had a weird color.

So... I don't know if it was the sulfur or not, but I didn't make any

other change in his diet.

Just wanted to let you know, so you'll be prepared in case...

Have a nice day Shari.

Valentina

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http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Hi Shari

Denis is on a CF diet. He doesn't seem to be bothered by gluten.

Also, he eats eggs well too. He's not crazy about them, but he's ok. I

don't think yesterday the eggs alone were the problem. It was

something about the cabbage, and I have no idea what exactly. I doubt

that it was just the fact that cabbage is " heavy " to digest. In this

case the reaction would have been different, but I also doubt it was

the sulfur alone. I don't know what to think anymore.

Anyway, at least now I know one thing: No cabbage for Denis!

Anyway, this evening when I went to see if he's ok, I found him

sleeping on the floor! I put him to bed, of course, and after he slept

for about 20 min, he got up and he was fine, like nothing happened

He " talked " to me again, we played together... he was so great!

Valentina

PS. MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) is organic sulfur.

> Valentina- Hi Thanks for sharing, a question or few , Is your son

> on a diet/GFCF? Egg is a big allergy food, has he been tested? That

> sounds like an allergy reaction. My son eats eggs with no problem,

> but I doubt I will be able to get Cabbage past him! I will have to

> try, I am going to the list Moira sent, I will have to see about

> which foods he might try..ANYONE try MSM???Isn't that

> sulphur???-Shari

[Guest guest]

At 12:42 PM 12/5/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>Valentina- Hi Thanks for sharing, a question or few , Is your son on a

>diet/GFCF? Egg is a big allergy food, has he been tested? That sounds

>like an allergy reaction. My son eats eggs with no problem, but I doubt

>I will be able to get Cabbage past him! I will have to try, I am going

>to the list Moira sent, I will have to see about which foods he might

>try..ANYONE try MSM???Isn't that sulphur???-Shari

Hi Shari, Your son may not need sulfur, and then you would not need

to be sneaky with cabbage. Andy's basic message is that it is an

individual thing--- some are too high, some too low. --Moria

[Guest guest]

Might be worth a non-invasive form of allergy testing such as NAET or TBM? Also

FYI: Generally the pulse increases significantly upon exposure to allergens.

S

On Wed, 05 December 2001, Shari wrote:

>

> <html><body>

>

>

> <tt>

> Valentina- Hi Thanks for sharing, a question or few , Is your son on a<BR>

> diet/GFCF? Egg is a big allergy food, has he been tested? That sounds<BR>

> like an allergy reaction. My son eats eggs with no problem, but I doubt<BR>

> I will be able to get Cabbage past him! I will have to try, I am going<BR>

> to the list Moira sent, I will have to see about which foods he might<BR>

> try..ANYONE try MSM???Isn't that sulphur???-Shari<BR>

> <BR>

> [ ] Re: sulfur<BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> Hi Shari,<BR>

> <BR>

> I would suggest you to be careful with the sulfury foods. You will<BR>

> definitely have to try them, but just be careful.<BR>

> I am not sure how fast should the effects be seen after you give your<BR>

> kids this kinds of foods, but I had an ugly & quot;surprise & quot; today, after

I<BR>

> tried these foods on Denis. Not sure if it's the sulfur or anything<BR>

> else, but I think it must be the sulfur!<BR>

> Yesterday I gave him cabbage and eggs and... since last evening it's<BR>

> like he went back a month ago. Last evening he devastated my house, he<BR>

> took out all his toys, all his collections of cards and pictures, and<BR>

> threw them all around... all day today he did the same thing... Also<BR>

> he stopped talking, communicating, he had some really ugly tantrums,<BR>

> he gets aggravated so fast without reason, and the thing that bothers<BR>

> me the most is the fact that he is again not interested in anything<BR>

> anymore... he's not reacting anymore to a lot of things... Today he<BR>

> stayed all day in font of the tv listening music and lining up cards<BR>

> in perfect long lines. He is now, today, like he was a month ago.<BR>

> Also, yesterday he was constipated and today his stool half looked<BR>

> normal and half was soft and had a weird color.<BR>

> So... I don't know if it was the sulfur or not, but I didn't make any<BR>

> other change in his diet.<BR>

> <BR>

> Just wanted to let you know, so you'll be prepared in case...<BR>

> Have a nice day Shari.<BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> Valentina<BR>

> <BR>

> _________________________________________________________________<BR>

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at<BR>

> <a

href= " http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp " >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</a><BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

>

[Guest guest]

Valentina,

Just checking in after a long absence and saw your report about your child

and I thought I might know some information about cabbage that you might

not have heard about.

In a paper from Dr. Waring's lab in 1996, it was found that Brassicas (the

family of cabbage and broccolli) contains something that inhibits

sulfotransferase activity. What that substance is was not determined, but

it did not appear to be sulfur. Dr. Waring referenced this finding and

mentioned Brassicas in the Alberti et al study, Sulphation Deficit in

" Low-Functioning Children: A Pilot Study " . In this study of 60 children

with autism, those with autism in unpaired T test were found to be impaired

in sulfation activity more than controls so much that the p value was

p<.000013. In age and sex-matched controls the p value was <.00002.

Most scientists feel their results are significant when the p value is <.04

or .05, or four to five chances in a hundred that the results happened by

chance. In this study the odds that the result happened by chance is 1.3

to 2 times in 100,000. There were only four children out of sixty WITHOUT

a tremendous impairment of the sulfur chemistry: a problem with LACK, not a

problem with having too much. Those four children who did not have

deficient sulfate, didn't have too much sulfate either: they were just more

like normal values.

This study was conducted in Italy and included a number of children with

comorbid conditions like epilepsy, genetic defects or cerebral palsy, but

fifty two had no comorbid condition, just normal autism. The children with

comorbid conditions all had the sulfation problems, too, just like the others.

The article about these foods is referenced below. The reaction you saw

may not have had anything to do with " getting sulfur " from these foods, but

rather may have been from their temporary impairment of sulfotransferase

activity caused by an unidentified compound or group of compounds that are

present in this type of vegetable.

Low systemic sulfate is another cause of impaired sulfotransferase

activity. This low sulfate may be induced by sulfate wasting after mercury

has collected in the kidneys and impaired the ability of the NaSi and Sat-1

sulfate transporters to reabsorb sulfate from the urine, or it may come

from a situation of chronic infection, or it may come when there is some

other environmental or genetic disruption of the sulfur chemistry.

Cysteine, the chemical that is thought to be a bad guy sometimes on this

list, has to get INTO cells via a cysteine transporter in order to make

glutathione. If it isn't getting in, then the cell can't export

glutathione into the blood and will tend towards keeping cysteine in the

blood. For that reason, it is quite reasonable to suspect that some

children may have higher cysteine and low glutathione in the blood at the

same time. If cysteine is not getting into cells properly, then those

cells also cannot make sulfate out of it, either. For that reason, you

will find in the same children higher cysteine, low glutathione and low

plasma sulfate. Not every child with autism has this set, but some

do. The cysteine to sulfate ratio is quite often too high, per Dr.

Waring's findings from about ten years ago. From the plasma amino acid

profiles I've seen, cystine and cysteine added together as those reports

are wont to do, are most often low, frequently accompanied by depressed

tryptophan.

There are at least four or five types of cysteine transporters, some that

share transport with cystine and some that don't. If the ones that

transport cysteine and not cystine are selectively impaired, then the blood

levels of cysteine over cystine may increase.

I think we would probably agree that it isn't normal for a meal with

brocolli or cabbage to send someone into a behavioral tailspin, and this

was unlikely to have been a " mercury issue " . This event may be an

indication that your child already had a considerable weakness in his

sulfotransferase activity, and that this meal provided some sort of straw

that pushed him over the edge into more autistic behavior.

The most vulnerable sulfotransferase to low sulfate levels seems to be

chondroitin sulfate which is a critical part of extracellular structures

that surround certain neurons and provide modulation to fast-firing

GABA-ergic parvalbumin-containing interneurons. This sort of neuron and

this sort of molecule are both found in certain areas of the cortex and in

nuclei in the brain that govern vestibular, auditory, somatosensory,

cerebellar, and a host of other functions that appear to be selectively

disrupted in autism. There seems to be a daily rhythm to the maintenance

of these sorts of molecules in the brain.

Those studying another disease where sulfate is wasted, AIDS, have done

autopsies on the brain of those who died with dementia from that disease,

and they found these structures made with chondroitin sulfate had not been

maintained and were almost entirely disrupted which was believed to be the

cause of the dementia. In their case, it was not a developmental problem,

but an ongoing problem of maintenance during a period of deficiency.

Anyway, I've put the article that talks about Brassicas below, although the

abstract does not refer to them by name. The Alberti study did. I hope

this helps.

(Maybe this is why a lot of children just cannot stand to eat certain

vegetables!)

Xenobiotica 1996 Dec;26(12):1241-7

Dietary modulation of human platelet phenolsulphotransferase activity.

RM, Waring RH.

School of Biochemistry, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, UK.

1. The mammalian phenolsulphotransferase enzymes are known to play a major role

in both the detoxification and possibly the activation of pre-carcinogenic

phenols and aromatic amines. 2. Vegetable cytosol preparations were tested in

vitro for their ability to affect the sulphation of two reference compounds

(rho-nitrophenol and dopamine, which are selective substrates for the

phenol and

monoamine forms of phenolsulphotransferase respectively), and to act as

substrates for the enzymes in comparison with the same reference compounds. 3.

The majority of cytosols greatly decreased (> 80%) the sulphation of either or

both the reference compounds. This effect may have been due to either enzyme

inhibition or substrate binding. 4. Whereas some of the cytosols were sulphated

under the assay conditions, most were not. Additionally, it was found that a

cytosol that decreased the sulphation of the two reference compounds was not

necessarily poorly sulphated itself. 5. It is concluded that dietary factors

have the potential to play a major role in modulating the sulphation

detoxification pathway, and have wide ranging implications with regard to

adverse drug reactions.

PMID: 9004454 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

At 05:04 PM 12/5/2001 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Shari,

>

>I would suggest you to be careful with the sulfury foods. You will

>definitely have to try them, but just be careful.

>I am not sure how fast should the effects be seen after you give your

>kids this kinds of foods, but I had an ugly " surprise " today, after I

>tried these foods on Denis. Not sure if it's the sulfur or anything

>else, but I think it must be the sulfur!

>Yesterday I gave him cabbage and eggs and... since last evening it's

>like he went back a month ago. Last evening he devastated my house, he

>took out all his toys, all his collections of cards and pictures, and

>threw them all around... all day today he did the same thing... Also

>he stopped talking, communicating, he had some really ugly tantrums,

>he gets aggravated so fast without reason, and the thing that bothers

>me the most is the fact that he is again not interested in anything

>anymore... he's not reacting anymore to a lot of things... Today he

>stayed all day in font of the tv listening music and lining up cards

>in perfect long lines. He is now, today, like he was a month ago.

>Also, yesterday he was constipated and today his stool half looked

>normal and half was soft and had a weird color.

>So... I don't know if it was the sulfur or not, but I didn't make any

>other change in his diet.

>

>Just wanted to let you know, so you'll be prepared in case...

>Have a nice day Shari.

>

>

>

>Valentina

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

>

>

>=======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I want to thank you very much for the info you gave me! I knew it must be

something else that I didn't know about cabbage! I feel much better now that you

told me about this study and... could you please make some more light for me?

I would really appreciate it. I have no way of knowing for sure if Denis' body

makes enough sulfate or if it's able to take care of it or not. Only by

observations, which many times I don't know how to interpret. Everything about

this subject is so complicated and also new for me... it's a little too much for

my

mind to assimilate... but I am trying, and I hope I won't sound completely idiot

If this is the case, if his sulfotransferases cannot work properly to use

sulfate when is needed, then what could I do about it? I've read about the two

methods that you recommend to be done to boost PST activity. Are these rules

true for all the sulfotransferases?

The first, to increase the amount of sulfate... I use 100g of magnesium sulfate

daily in his bath tub. Is this enough? too much? should I double? I don't see

the white " film " on his skin when he gets dry. I think I've seen some " good

things " when I first started to use it, but it wasn't that obvious, and it was

nothing extraordinary, like he had a problem before... The things that I've

noticed were: he started to sleep more, but he was sleeping already too much,

and he became a little calmer, but I can't be sure about this because he lost

his

tantrums, the hyper character right after we started chelation, so it was the

reaction of ALA (I think) not the magnesium sulfate.

Also, what if no matter how much sulfate I give him, it doesn't matter anyway,

because his sulfate transporter from his kidneys don't work properly either, and

the sulfate will be excreted in the urine?

(Is Sodium laureth sulfate good as well to use for its sulfate? I used a salt

that contained this some time ago, when I couldn't find magnesium sulfate and it

worked... Denis was a lot calmer those days)

The second method, to increase the amount of the enzymes... how do I do that?

How do I make his body produce more of all those sulfotransferases?

Also, what's the benefit, if they won't have enough substrate anyway?

How do I make his body keep the sulfur and make the sulfotransferases work with

it?

I'm lost

> Low systemic sulfate is another cause of impaired sulfotransferase

> activity.

Again, I'm not sure about anything...

Denis is really tall for his age, and I've read somewhere that sulfate is needed

for the growth factors, so... he seems to have more than enough

Also, I know he has a phenols problem, but I don't think it's that bad. I may be

wrong thought...

> Cysteine, the chemical that is thought to be a bad guy sometimes on this

> list, has to get INTO cells via a cysteine transporter in order to make

> glutathione.

Here.. I'm completely lost

I have no idea if his body has lots of cysteine or not, if his cells produce

enough sulfate or glutathion. I guess best would be to try to give him some

cysteine and see what's happening, but the problem is that I don't have any

and... can't find any in the pharmacies here.

Is Acetylcysteine same thing as N-acetyl cysteine? Or is this something

completely different? This was the only thing I could find and I have no idea

what it is. They say in the prospect that it is a " mucolitic " (I'm not sure if

this is an English word... it means something that refers to the the mucous

membrane)

I guess what I'm trying to find out here is a little forced, because I am asking

you something that you cannot possibly know without a proper analyze done. UFF!!

I wish I could do this, but I can't I am sure there must be a lab here

somewhere, just that it is not a commercial one...

, do you happen to know if the sulfur chemistry has anything to do with the

adipose tissue? Or is this more pancrease/insulin related? Or is just about the

fats that your body can or cannot assimilate? Denis had some kind of problem

with this when he was a lot smaller... The doctors didn't find anything alarming

about it, but I don't think it is normal for a 1 1/2 yo child to not have

adipose tissue at all around his hips. I don't know why I thought about this

now...

Anyway, thank you again for your email.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

> It helps to know that the

> half-life of sulfate in the blood is 4-9 hours.

I would greatly appreciate supporting information and literature

references for this. Also, is this half life due to excretion in the

urine, or due to metabolic consumption, or the combination?

> There is not a single thing that induces expression of

> sulfotransferases. There are many different sulfotransferases and

they

> differ in regulation and expression as development proceeds.

Hormones and

> growth factors are involved in their regulation as well as Vitamin

A, and

> thyroid.

Are there other things that regulate them? Which ones do A and

thyroid regulate?

Andy

[Guest guest]

Andy,

I can't get to those papers at the moment due to holiday obligations, but I

will definitely try to post them here after the holidays, OK? If I forget,

will you remind me if it is still on your mind?

The fate of sulfate was studied by using radiolabelled sulfate. The

radioactivity of 35S is known to last about 80+ days (can't remember, but I

think it was 87), but about 85% of a dose of labelled sulfate was excreted

into the urine within 24 hours. This was a human study. The experiment

used an amount of radiolabelled sulfate that was very small and not

sufficient to increase the sulfate concentration in the blood, so it

wouldn't change any feedback signal. It took about an hour and a half for

the radioactivity in the blood to level out.

Very little of blood sulfate seems to be consumed unless there is a toxic

load like phenols or acetaminophen, which can drastically affect blood

levels, as shown in probably hundreds of studies. It seems that sulfate in

the blood is there primarily for the benefit of the gastrointestinal system

which takes up about every bit of sulfate that the liver exports to the

blood, at least in rodents. But the excretion of most of the inorganic

sulfate content of the blood is obviously fairly rapid, but I doubt

inorganic sulfate in the blood represents very much of the body's sulfate

content. I'm very convinced that the recycling and regeneration of sulfate

for the cell probably does not occur in the form of inorganic sulfate,

especially travelling through the blood. I wish I could find studies which

monitored tissue levels using labelled sulfur (cysteine would be best,

probably, or methionine), but that didn't seem to be the interest back when

they were doing the studies using 35S. I'll keep looking for it, though!

Different sorts of cells have different preferences as to how they import

sulfur. Some import sulfite when they cannot process cysteine to

sulfate. Some import taurine, some cystine. Some cannot import sulfate,

so they have to make it themselves. It all depends on what cell type you

are talking about.

>Are there other things that regulate them?

The ones I mentioned are of course the main regulators I've found. I

wouldn't doubt if there is some regulation that hasn't been determined yet!

>Which ones do A and

>thyroid regulate?

I'm straining my memory a little here as I studied this most intensely two

years ago, and didn't have time to write a paper on it at the time. I

think vitamin A may give a fairly generalized boost to sulfotransferase

activity, and likewise thyroid, but developmentally, thyroid is very

important for the sulfation of the brain. Its activity and expression is

very dependent on sulfation itself, as one article below states quite well.

The sulfation of the brain would involve cerebroside sulfotransferase and

the GAG sulfotransferases. IGF plays a VERY important role, as well as the

sex hormones. The levels of sulfotransferases of ALL types, as far as I

can tell, is tightly regulated and works differently in boys and girls. I

suspect that is a big reason for the differences in risks for both autism

and mercury toxicity between the sexes.

I " ve put articles below both on sulfotransferase relationships to thyroid,

and on how labelled 35S has been used to track how the body uses sulfur in

different forms.

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2001 Dec 1;86(12):5944-5955

Differential Expression of Sulfotransferase Enzymes Involved in Thyroid Hormone

Metabolism during Human Placental Development.

Stanley EL, Hume R, Visser TJ, Coughtrie MW.

Departments of Molecular and Cellular Pathology (E.L.S., R.H., M.W.H.C.) and

Obstetrics and Gynaecology (E.L.S., R.H.), University of Dundee, Ninewells

Hospital and Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY, Scotland, United Kingdom.

Thyroid hormone is essential for normal human development, and disruption of

thyroid hormone homeostasis at critical developmental stages can result in

severe and often long-term effects on crucial organs such as the brain and

lungs. Numerous factors control the bioavailability of receptor active thyroid

hormone T(3). Sulfation, catalyzed by sulfotransferase enzymes (SULTs), is an

important pathway of thyroid hormone metabolism by which T(4) is irreversibly

converted to inactive reverse T(3) rather than active T(3). The human fetus and

neonate have high levels of circulating sulfated iodothyronines, although the

source of these is not clear. The placenta forms the link between the fetus and

its mother and is involved in transfer of thyroid hormone early in pregnancy,

although its capacity for sulfation is unknown. We therefore examined

expression

of the SULTs involved in iodothyronine metabolism during human placental

development. SULT activity was measured in human placental cotyledon and

membranes (amnion, chorion, and decidua basalis) from 13-42 wk of

gestation, and

Western blot analysis was employed to verify enzyme activity data. Phenol and

catecholamine sulfotransferases were expressed at the highest levels and were

generally higher in the villous than membranous tissues. SULT1A1 activity

showed

significant correlation with sulfation of 3,3'-T(2), suggesting that this

enzyme

is primarily responsible for placental T(2) sulfation. Estrogen

sulfotransferase

was present at extremely low levels during early pregnancy, although in

mid- and

late gestation increased expression in the (predominantly maternal-derived)

decidual component of the placenta was observed. Hydroxysteroid

sulfotransferase, T(3), reverse T(3), and T(4) SULT activities were also low in

all tissues examined, and expression of SULTs 1B1 and 1C2 were essentially

undetectable by Western blot analysis. The results highlight a tissue-specific

regulation of SULT expression during placental development, demonstrate

very low

sulfation of iodothyronines suggesting that the placenta is not a major source

of circulating sulfated iodothyronines in the fetus.

PMID: 11739469 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

1: Xenobiotica 2000 Apr;30(4):345-57

Thyroid hormone modulation of rat sulphotransferase mRNA expression.

Dunn RT 2nd, Klaassen CD.

Department of Pharmacology, Toxicology and Therapeutics, University of Kansas

Medical Center, Kansas City 66160-7417, USA.

1. Thyroid hormones modulate sulphotransferase (SULT) enzyme expression.

Specific substrates are not available for the study of the SULT isoforms,

so the

regulation of hepatic SULT mRNA expression by thyroid hormones was examined by

Northern blot analysis with oligonucleotide probes specific for each SULT mRNA,

including male-dominant phenol SULT (1A1, 1C1, 1E2), female-dominant

hydroxysteroid SULT (20/21, 40/41, 60), and a non-sex-dependent SULT, 1B1. The

male and female rat were either untreated, thyroidectomized (TX), or TX and

given thyroid hormones (thyroxine [T4, 20 microg kg(-1) day(-1)] and

3,5,3'-triiodothyronine [T3, 5 microg kg(-1) day(-1)]). 2. With regard to

phenol

SULTs, expression of SULT1A1 or SULT1B1 mRNA was not altered in either sex by

TX. TX increased SULT1E2 mRNA expression 3-fold in the male and 2.5-fold in the

female rat. The increase in SULT1E2 mRNA was partially reversed by infusion of

T3/T4 in the male, and was not reversed in the female. 3. With regard to

hydroxysteroid SULTs, TX decreased expression of SULT20/21 mRNA in the male rat

by 70 and 60% in the female, and these decreases were reversed by T3/T4

infusion. SULT40/41 mRNA expression increased in the male rat 3-fold and

decreased in the female TX rat by 25%. SULT60 mRNA expression increased 3-fold

by TX in the female rats. The effects of TX on SULT40/41 and SULT60 mRNA

expression were reversed by infusion of T2/T4. 5. Thus, phenol

sulphotransferases were not markedly affected by thyroid hormones except for

SULT1E2, but each hydroxysteroid sulphotransferase isoform was affected by

thyroidectomy. Therefore, thyroid hormones regulate SULT gene expression in an

isoform-specific manner.

PMID: 10821164 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: J Biol Chem 1981 Feb 10;256(3):1167-71

Investigations on myelination in vitro. Regulation of sulfolipid synthesis by

thyroid hormone in cultures of dissociated brain cells from embryonic mice.

Bhat NR, Rao GS, Pieringer RA.

L-3,5,3'-Triiodothyronine (T3) has been shown to influence the synthesis of

myelin-associated lipids in cultures of cells dissociated from brains of

embryonic mice (Bhat, N. R., Sarlieve, L., Subba Rao, G., and Pieringer, R. A.

(1979) J. Biol. Chem. 254, 9342-9344). This culture system was used in the

present study to gain additional information on the regulation of the synthesis

of myelin lipids by thyroid hormone. The rate of synthesis of the myelin

associated sulfolipids remained drastically diminished throughout a 70-day

developmental period when cells were grown in the presence of hypothyroid calf

serum (T3 < 25 ng/100 ml; thyroxine (T4), 1.2 microgram/ml). However, the

activity could be restored to normal levels after 72 h of exposure to deficient

medium supplemented with exogenous T3. Half-maximal effects were obtained

with 2

X 10(-9) M T3 and 6.25 X 10(-7) M T4. T3 does not alter the synthesis of

sulfated mucopolysaccharides, which share adenosine 3'-phosphate,

5'-phosphosulfate (PAPS), as a common precursor, with sulfolipids. This

observation argues against the hormone altering the entry of sulfate or the

synthesis of PAPS. Rather, T3 acts by changing the activity of the

glycolipid:PAPS sulfotransferase(s) in direct proportion to the

concentration of

T3 in the growth medium. The activity of 2',3'-cyclic nucleotide

3'-phosphohydrolase, another myelin marker was also found to be T3 dependent.

The response of sulfolipid synthesis to varying amounts of T3 was also observed

in a serum-free medium, which suggests that T3 can function independently of

other hormones and serum factors in exerting a relatively specific effect

on the

regulation of myelination.

PMID: 6256388 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Clin Chem 2000 Apr;46(4):523-8

Serum dehydroepiandrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and pregnenolone

sulfate concentrations in patients with hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism.

Tagawa N, Tamanaka J, Fujinami A, Kobayashi Y, Takano T, Fukata S, Kuma K, Tada

H, Amino N.

Clinical Chemistry Laboratory, Kobe Pharmaceutical University, 4-19-1,

Motoyamakita-machi, Higashinada-ku, Kobe 658-8558, Japan.t-noriko@kobe

pharma-u.ac.jp

BACKGROUND: Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate

(DHEA-S) have been suggested to have protective effects against cardiovascular

disease, cancer, immune-modulated diseases, and aging. We examined serum

concentrations of DHEA, DHEA-S, and pregnenolone sulfate (PREG-S) in patients

with thyroid dysfunction. METHODS: Steroids extracted with methanol from serum

sample were separated into an unconjugated fraction (DHEA) and a monosulfate

fraction (DHEA-S and PREG-S), using a solid-phase extraction and an

ion-exchange

column. After separation of unconjugated steroids by HPLC, the DHEA

concentration was measured by enzyme immunoassay. The monosulfate fraction was

treated with arylsulfatase, and the freed steroids were separated by HPLC. The

DHEA and PREG fractions were determined by gas chromatography-mass

spectrometry,

and the concentrations were converted into those of DHEA-S and PREG-S. RESULTS:

Serum concentrations of DHEA, DHEA-S, and PREG-S were all significantly

lower in

patients with hypothyroidism (n = 24) than in age- and sex-matched healthy

controls (n = 43). By contrast, in patients with hyperthyroidism (n = 22),

serum

DHEA-S and PREG-S concentrations were significantly higher, but the serum DHEA

concentration was within the reference interval. Serum concentrations of these

three steroids correlated with serum concentrations of thyroid hormones in

these

patients. Serum albumin and sex hormone-binding globulin concentrations

were not

related to these changes in the concentration of steroids. CONCLUSIONS: Serum

concentrations of DHEA, DHEA-S, and PREG-S were decreased in hypothyroidism,

whereas serum DHEA-S and PREG-S concentrations were increased but DHEA was

normal in hyperthyroidism. Thyroid hormone may stimulate the synthesis of these

steroids, and DHEA sulfotransferase might be increased in hyperthyroidism.

PMID: 10759476 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Int J Dev Neurosci 1989;7(4):323-8

Developing rat cerebellum--I. Effects of abnormal thyroid states and

undernutrition on sulfated glycosaminoglycans.

Normand G, Clos J, Vitiello F, Gombos G.

Institut de Chimie Biologique de la Faculte de Medecine, Universite Louis

Pasteur, Strasbourg, France.

Sulfated glycosaminoglycans deposition during rat postnatal cerebellar

developmental is affected by altered thyroid states and undernutrition. These

ontogenetic alterations seem not to be specific but to be one aspect of the

general acceleration, slowing down and reduction of the cerebellar development

occurring in thyroid-deficient, hyperthyroid and undernourished rats,

respectively.

PMID: 2773667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Recent Adv Biol Psychiatry 1968;10:271-80 Related Articles, Books

Effect of thyroid-hormone levels on 35S-sulfate pools in mature and

senile rat brain.

Short MJ, WP, Sidbury JB Jr.

Publication Types:

* Review

PMID: 4173156 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Comp Biochem Physiol C Toxicol Pharmacol 2001 Jul;129(3):211-6

Importance of sulfate, cysteine and methionine as precursors to felinine

synthesis by domestic cats (Felis catus).

Hendriks WH, Rutherfurd SM, Rutherfurd KJ.

Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, Private

Bag 11

222, Palmerston North, New Zealand. w.hendriks@...

There is conflicting evidence in the literature on the utilization of cysteine

and methionine as precursors to the urinary sulfur-containing amino acid

felinine in cats. Three entire domestic short-haired male cats, housed

individually in metabolism cages, were injected intraperitoneally with either

[35S]-sulfate, [35S]-cysteine, or [35S]-methionine. Daily urine samples were

collected quantitatively for up to 9 days after injection. Each cat was

injected

once with each compound after observing an appropriate interval for [35S] to be

depleted between injections. All the urine samples were analysed for felinine

content and total radioactivity. Felinine was isolated from each urine sample

and analysed for radioactivity. No radioactivity was found in felinine from

cats

injected with [35S]-sulfate. The mean (+/-S.E.M.) cumulative recovery of

radioactivity in the urine of the [35S]-sulfate injected cats was 90.6+/-6.1%

after 4 days. The mean (+/-S.E.M.) cumulative incorporation rate of

radioactivity into felinine by the cats receiving the [35S]-cysteine and

[35S]-methionine were 11.6+/-1.6 and 8.6+/-0.6%, respectively, after 9

days. The

mean (+/-S.E.M.) cumulative recoveries of radioactivity in the urine were

58.1+/-3.7 and 36.0+/-8.0%, respectively. Cysteine and methionine, but not

sulfate, are precursors to felinine, with cysteine being a more quantitatively

important precursor compared to methionine.

PMID: 11461837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet 1991 Oct-Dec;16(4):287-97

The kinetics and dynamics of three kinds of radioactive methionine after i.v.

administration in mice.

Hayama E, Motoji N, Shigematsu A.

Institute of Whole Body Metabolism, Chiba, Japan.

In C57BL mice, a tracer amount of methionine (Met) at a concentration

approximate to that in the blood was administered in the tail vein (i.v.). The

rates of endogenous metabolic decomposition of methionine were obtained by

using

three specifically labelled compounds, [1-14C]-Met, [m-14C]-Met and [35S]-Met.

Results on the kinetics and dynamics after i.v. administration suggested that 5

min after administration, most of the labelled compounds were taken up into the

organs and tissues, and only a small portion was excreted in the expired air as

CO2, the final metabolite of methionine. At 30 min the radioactive

concentration

in blood was minimal and was consistent with the maximum of the 14CO2 excretion

in expired air. Gradual increase of the radioactive concentration in blood

after

30 min might be due to the contribution of the metabolite in the blood.

Methionine taken up was endogenously utilized by more than 40% during 48 h and

it maintained the order of [1-14C]:[m-14C]:[35S]. Out of the remaining 60%, 40%

was metabolized in 6 h after administration, the [1-14C] moiety being excreted

mainly into expired air, the [m-14C] moiety into expired air and urine, and the

[35S] moiety mainly into urine and partly into faeces. Microautoradiograms

revealed that a part of the last 20% was taken up into the enzyme proteins

contained in the pancreatic juice and intestinal juice, and was decomposed

within 48 h.

PMID: 1823873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Prikl Biokhim Mikrobiol 1984 Mar-Apr;20(2):260-6 Related Articles, Books

[utilization and transformation of sulfur-containing compounds by hens]

[Article in Russian]

Lagodiuk PZ, Ratych IB, Skvaruk VI, Strazhnyk ZI, Nazarevich LE.

In the experiments with 35S-labelled sodium sulfate, sulfate sulfur

was found to be used for cysteine synthesis in hens. The 35S label was

detected in hen's eggs as well, the subshell membranes possessing the

highest specific radioactivity. A dependence of 35S incorporation on the

ovule developmental stage was revealed. It was established that a shortage

of sulfur-containing amino acids in hens' diet can be partially compensated

by sodium sulfate sulfur, which influences the concentration of some

metabolites.

PMID: 6718330 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: J Nutr 1982 May;112(5):1003-10

Diet and biosynthesis as sources of taurine in the mouse.

Huxtable RJ, Lippincott SE.

The quantitative importance of diet versus biosynthesis as sources of taurine

has been established in mice receiving dietary levels of 0.062% [3H]taurine and

0.74% [35S]methionine as sole sulfur-containing amino acids. After 15 days on

diets radiolabeled with these levels of taurine and methionine, 16% of

total-body taurine had been derived from diet and 24% from biosynthesis. By 30

days, these contributions had risen to 29% and 33%, respectively, and by 61

days

to 46%. The half-life of turnover of taurine in the mouse was 18.6 days. These

findings indicate that, like the rat and guinea pig, but unlike the cat and

human, the mouse exhibits considerable biosynthetic capacity for taurine.

PMID: 7077412 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I live in Romania.

12 fluid oz.here would be something like 350 g. Well, I have to say that

this amount of magnesium sulfate daily in Denis' bath tub would put a

hole in my soul, not only in my pocket It really is not very

expensive, but only if you buy it for... whatever people usually use it

for. At this quantity.... UFF!! I guess I will have to find a way to buy

it and use it, because I tried like 200 g yesterday and this evening (I

give Denis a bath with magnesium sulfate each evening) and yes, the

effects were visible. Again not something extraordinary, because he is

not so hyper anymore and also he sleeps pretty good with or without the

salt, also his diet doesn't include too many phenols, but it was

something...

Anyway, I thought vitamins and supplements are expensive

I guess I will have to try again the other salt I told you about... the

one with the sodium laureth sulfate. I've noticed this sulfate is in

most of the bath salts and also the skin creams for babies most of them

have it... The thing that I'm afraid though is that along with the

sodium laureth sulfate I will get a lot of colorants and perfumes that I

don't need.

> Yes, acetyl-cysteine is probably the same as NAC.

Thank you . I tried it already because I just needed to know, first

on myself, and I felt great at the beginning, happier, and yesterday on

Denis, and I'm not sure if I should give him more or what, but

yesterday, after I gave him that, he was a little more friendly with

some people. He said Hi to everybody we met (of course, he said it

because I asked him to, but usually he just refuses to say it anyway,

and lately he's not speaking much again, so it was a nice short change).

Today, I've noticed he has a blister on the corner of his mouth, and

surprisingly, I have one too... same thing. So I have no idea if I

should continue or not (I suspect it's because of the cysteine, some

liver reaction). Also, since last evening I feel like my liver is

working really hard on something I am not sure if this is a good sign

or a bad sign or just a sign that things are moving... just a reaction

of a body who needed this, or a sign that my liver makes more bile to

take out more metals... I don't know...

UFF!! It would be great to have those analyses!

It is really killing me to have to give Denis stuff without knowing for

sure if he needs it or not or if I only do more damage It is so

frustrating UFF!!

Anyway, to conclude, I'm not sure if I should give him acetyl cysteine,

because I keep reading about its effects with chelation. So I was

thinking that maybe it would be better if I give him just the sulfate

and glutathion? Or maybe I could give him acetyl cysteine while he's on

chelation and stop it while off? (with lots of antioxidants, of course)

I'm not sure... Do you think it would be ok if I would try a combination

of glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate and MSM?

Or what do you think would be less risky for somebody that is chelating,

and you're not sure about his plasma cysteine or sulfate levels or

glutathion, but it's obvious that ALA helps?

I'm sorry for asking so many questions... Answer please only if

you can or have time... I do appreciate your advice. Your work helped me

a lot in understanding a lot of things that happen to Denis. Thank you

very much!

> ALA is also a sulfur source, and a big part of its benefit

> may be just from that...for it is extensively metabolized.

> If it is improving the formation of sulfated GAGs, it may be

> neuroprotective from mercury damage because of that function,

> quite distinct from any chelation properties of its own.

Well, my biggest concern with Denis is not the fact that he refuses to

speak, even when I know for sure he could do it, but the fact that many

MANY times he seems not able to understand my words. He's not only

refusing to speak, but also to *even try* to understand what I'm saying.

The first reaction that I've noticed when I first gave him ALA, was that

suddenly he started speaking. He was echoing me, but he never did that

before ALA just like that.

> Valentina, whenever you have a weak reaction along a metabolic

> pathway, you can either increase the enzyme, its substrates

> and/or its cofactors to get more reaction. Your choice of

> which of these three to enhance will have outside consequences,

> however, because you may enhance other pathways you had no

> intention of enhancing. For that reason, it is best to know

> WHERE the weak link is: enzyme, substrate or co-factor, so you

> can better preserve homeostasis.

I would be thrilled if things would be that simple for me.

I don't want to sound pathetic, but I really have no way of knowing for

sure where Denis stands (and I'm not talking only about the sulfur

chemistry here). I'm not a doctor, but because I couldn't find the help

of the doctors here, I am trying to become one, sort of... I have to!

But it's not just that... not only that I don't have the necessary

knowledge, but I also can't do these analyses that I need. I am sure

there are others available here, but again, because the lack of

knowledge and money, I can't just go on and test him. My only option is

to just try some supplement or medicine and wait to see what's

happening. I can't tell you what kind of stress this gives me

This is why I am asking all these questions... I am trying to find out

exactly this, where the weak link is, where to start from, what to do,

what is best for him.

I am sorry if I become annoying, I just hope you can help me... Of

course, I realize you can't tell me exactly what's happening, but... I'm

just hoping for anything you can " give " me.

> Fat has enhanced sulfate transport.

> I wonder about whether it may have something to do with

> the increases of obesity we've seen happening parallel

> to the increase of diseases that may associate with sulfur

> deficiency.

> On the other side, when it has gone past low to dangerously

> low, things may shift. My father, who had Alzheimers was very

> overweight in his middle years. When he began to have

> symptoms of AD, he started losing weight rapidly, despite

> a diet as generous as it had been before.

Denis was never ever fat, or even " normal " so to speak. Maybe until he

was 7-8 months old he looked like an ok baby, but never after that. I

always had comments from people that he is too tall and too skinny.

Lately, (since I added the sulfate to his bath) I don't know if I'm

getting weaker or he's getting heavier. He's not " bigger " . But I have a

hard time trying to pick him up And I have the feeling his muscles

feel more like muscles, not just sponge...

I guess I will stop here... I hope maybe you can help me with some of

the questions... ideas... what wuold be best to try...

Thank you very much for all your help so far.

And Merry Christmas!

Valentina

[Guest guest]

Hi Valentina,

>12 fluid oz.here would be something like 350 g. Well, I have to say that

>this amount of magnesium sulfate daily in Denis' bath tub would put a

>hole in my soul, not only in my pocket It really is not very

>expensive, but only if you buy it for... whatever people usually use it

>for. At this quantity.... UFF!! I guess I will have to find a way to buy

>it and use it, because I tried like 200 g yesterday and this evening (I

>give Denis a bath with magnesium sulfate each evening) and yes, the

>effects were visible.

Is this epsom salts? If so, a number of parents have reported on using

a mixture of the epsom salts and water and putting this on the skin---

either as a roll-on type mixture or a spray. The idea is that you use

a much stronger concentration of the salt to water than you would have

in a bath. This apparently works great. I wouldn't know since I

don't seem to have an effect from epsom salts (as far as I've noticed).

(I keep using it once in a while because I read so much about it, but

I don't notice anything.....) Anyhow, my point is that this should

solve the cost issue. Just mix the epsom salts into water and

figure out a way to apply it. Someone else can give you more practical

hints like % of salt to water etc.

>Anyway, to conclude, I'm not sure if I should give him acetyl cysteine,

>because I keep reading about its effects with chelation. So I was

>thinking that maybe it would be better if I give him just the sulfate

>and glutathion? Or maybe I could give him acetyl cysteine while he's on

>chelation and stop it while off? (with lots of antioxidants, of course)

>I'm not sure... Do you think it would be ok if I would try a combination

>of glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate and MSM?

>Or what do you think would be less risky for somebody that is chelating,

>and you're not sure about his plasma cysteine or sulfate levels or

>glutathion, but it's obvious that ALA helps?

Valentina, as I think you know, I am pretty " simple " on all this

sort of chemical stuff. But I don't think it matters if he is chelating

or not ( " on " or " off " ). I think that either he is high sulfur kid

(in which case feed him less of any of the foods/supplements w/sulfur),

or he is low (which seems more likely based on what you have said?)

(in which case give him more of any of the sulfury stuff). When he

is " on " he (and you and me) get some sulfur from the ALA itself.

Or, he could be " just right " on sulfur. Hey, anything is possible

(I tested as in the reference range.)

best,

Moria

[Guest guest]

I have been making my own epsom salt oil or cream. Way cheaper than

buying commercially made. The boys like it this way...I just lather

it all over one arm in the morning and/or night.

Epsom salt oil: I have been experimenting a bit with the Epsom

salts. It would leave a salty film on the skin which my two boys and

I didn't like (itchy). Lately, I have been mixing some coconut oil

in with the salts and water. Actually it is more oil than water. 3

tablespoons water + 4 tablespoons salts + 12 tablespoon coconut oil.

The coconut oil is good for the skin anyway and it seems to counter

the drying effect of the salts. I found that just mixing the salts

and oil did not dissolve the salts, so I needed to add just some

water. I apply this liberally on the skin and it soaks in plus

leaves the skin smooth and soft.

Now we use a homemade cream. I bought 4 oz of cocoa butter cream at

GNC in the mall for $2. I heated 3 heaping tablespoons of epsom salts

with just a little water so it would dissolve and then mixed this

into the cream. You could use pretty much any cream your child

tolerates for this. I have use an evening primrose cream ($1 for 2

oz) at GNC and some unused banana boat sunscreen.

.

[Guest guest]

Moria,

Thank you very much for the info about the magnesium sulfate. I didn't

" catch " that info from all the messages that I read I don't know

how that happened

FOR SURE I will try the method. It was already hard with the daily

100g

> Valentina, as I think you know, I am pretty " simple " on all this

> sort of chemical stuff. But I don't think it matters if he is

> chelating or not ( " on " or " off " ). I think that either he is high

> sulfur kid (in which case feed him less of any of the

> foods/supplements w/sulfur), or he is low (which seems more

> likely based on what you have said?)

> (in which case give him more of any of the sulfury stuff).

The problem Moria is that yes, he seems " low " but I'm not sure if he

has or not a sulfur oxidation problem. It looks like... and in this

case... I think maybe I should lower the dose... I'm not sure

UFF!!!

Also, I don't know if it wouldn't be better to stop killing his liver

and use instead the sulfate and glutathion. Or better

glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate. I don't know how to interpret what I

see

Valentina

[Guest guest]

In the US you can buy large cartons of epsom salts (magnesium sulfate)

to use for soaking sprained ankles, etc. It is quite commonly used

for this and has been for hundreds of years. I am sure you can find

larger quantities at reasonable prices for something other than

laxative use.

Here if you go to the store and ask for magnesium sulfate they say

they don't have it, but if you ask for epsom salts they point right at

it on the shelf. Perhaps it has an older name it is sold under?

Andy

>

> Hi ,

>

> I live in Romania.

> 12 fluid oz.here would be something like 350 g. Well, I have to say

that

> this amount of magnesium sulfate daily in Denis' bath tub would put

a

> hole in my soul, not only in my pocket It really is not very

> expensive, but only if you buy it for... whatever people usually use

it

> for. At this quantity.... UFF!! I guess I will have to find a way to

buy

> it and use it, because I tried like 200 g yesterday and this evening

(I

> give Denis a bath with magnesium sulfate each evening) and yes, the

> effects were visible. Again not something extraordinary, because he

is

> not so hyper anymore and also he sleeps pretty good with or without

the

> salt, also his diet doesn't include too many phenols, but it was

> something...

> Anyway, I thought vitamins and supplements are expensive

> I guess I will have to try again the other salt I told you about...

the

> one with the sodium laureth sulfate. I've noticed this sulfate is in

> most of the bath salts and also the skin creams for babies most of

them

> have it... The thing that I'm afraid though is that along with the

> sodium laureth sulfate I will get a lot of colorants and perfumes

that I

> don't need.

>

>

> > Yes, acetyl-cysteine is probably the same as NAC.

>

> Thank you . I tried it already because I just needed to know,

first

> on myself, and I felt great at the beginning, happier, and yesterday

on

> Denis, and I'm not sure if I should give him more or what, but

> yesterday, after I gave him that, he was a little more friendly with

> some people. He said Hi to everybody we met (of course, he said it

> because I asked him to, but usually he just refuses to say it

anyway,

> and lately he's not speaking much again, so it was a nice short

change).

> Today, I've noticed he has a blister on the corner of his mouth, and

> surprisingly, I have one too... same thing. So I have no idea if I

> should continue or not (I suspect it's because of the cysteine, some

> liver reaction). Also, since last evening I feel like my liver is

> working really hard on something I am not sure if this is a good

sign

> or a bad sign or just a sign that things are moving... just a

reaction

> of a body who needed this, or a sign that my liver makes more bile

to

> take out more metals... I don't know...

> UFF!! It would be great to have those analyses!

> It is really killing me to have to give Denis stuff without knowing

for

> sure if he needs it or not or if I only do more damage It is so

> frustrating UFF!!

> Anyway, to conclude, I'm not sure if I should give him acetyl

cysteine,

> because I keep reading about its effects with chelation. So I was

> thinking that maybe it would be better if I give him just the

sulfate

> and glutathion? Or maybe I could give him acetyl cysteine while he's

on

> chelation and stop it while off? (with lots of antioxidants, of

course)

> I'm not sure... Do you think it would be ok if I would try a

combination

> of glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate and MSM?

> Or what do you think would be less risky for somebody that is

chelating,

> and you're not sure about his plasma cysteine or sulfate levels or

> glutathion, but it's obvious that ALA helps?

>

> I'm sorry for asking so many questions... Answer please only

if

> you can or have time... I do appreciate your advice. Your work

helped me

> a lot in understanding a lot of things that happen to Denis. Thank

you

> very much!

>

>

> > ALA is also a sulfur source, and a big part of its benefit

> > may be just from that...for it is extensively metabolized.

> > If it is improving the formation of sulfated GAGs, it may be

> > neuroprotective from mercury damage because of that function,

> > quite distinct from any chelation properties of its own.

>

> Well, my biggest concern with Denis is not the fact that he refuses

to

> speak, even when I know for sure he could do it, but the fact that

many

> MANY times he seems not able to understand my words. He's not only

> refusing to speak, but also to *even try* to understand what I'm

saying.

> The first reaction that I've noticed when I first gave him ALA, was

that

> suddenly he started speaking. He was echoing me, but he never did

that

> before ALA just like that.

>

>

> > Valentina, whenever you have a weak reaction along a metabolic

> > pathway, you can either increase the enzyme, its substrates

> > and/or its cofactors to get more reaction. Your choice of

> > which of these three to enhance will have outside consequences,

> > however, because you may enhance other pathways you had no

> > intention of enhancing. For that reason, it is best to know

> > WHERE the weak link is: enzyme, substrate or co-factor, so you

> > can better preserve homeostasis.

>

> I would be thrilled if things would be that simple for me.

> I don't want to sound pathetic, but I really have no way of knowing

for

> sure where Denis stands (and I'm not talking only about the sulfur

> chemistry here). I'm not a doctor, but because I couldn't find the

help

> of the doctors here, I am trying to become one, sort of... I have

to!

> But it's not just that... not only that I don't have the necessary

> knowledge, but I also can't do these analyses that I need. I am sure

> there are others available here, but again, because the lack of

> knowledge and money, I can't just go on and test him. My only option

is

> to just try some supplement or medicine and wait to see what's

> happening. I can't tell you what kind of stress this gives me

> This is why I am asking all these questions... I am trying to find

out

> exactly this, where the weak link is, where to start from, what to

do,

> what is best for him.

> I am sorry if I become annoying, I just hope you can help

me... Of

> course, I realize you can't tell me exactly what's happening, but...

I'm

> just hoping for anything you can " give " me.

>

>

> > Fat has enhanced sulfate transport.

> > I wonder about whether it may have something to do with

> > the increases of obesity we've seen happening parallel

> > to the increase of diseases that may associate with sulfur

> > deficiency.

>

> > On the other side, when it has gone past low to dangerously

> > low, things may shift. My father, who had Alzheimers was very

> > overweight in his middle years. When he began to have

> > symptoms of AD, he started losing weight rapidly, despite

> > a diet as generous as it had been before.

>

> Denis was never ever fat, or even " normal " so to speak. Maybe until

he

> was 7-8 months old he looked like an ok baby, but never after that.

I

> always had comments from people that he is too tall and too skinny.

> Lately, (since I added the sulfate to his bath) I don't know if I'm

> getting weaker or he's getting heavier. He's not " bigger " . But I

have a

> hard time trying to pick him up And I have the feeling his

muscles

> feel more like muscles, not just sponge...

>

> I guess I will stop here... I hope maybe you can help me with some

of

> the questions... ideas... what wuold be best to try...

> Thank you very much for all your help so far.

> And Merry Christmas!

>

>

> Valentina

[Guest guest]

Hi Andy,

Yes, I had this problem I went to all the pharmacies in this city

asking for magnesium sulfate and the pharmacists told me they don't

have something like this, what's that?... And one day somebody told me

that actually magnesium sulfate is called " bitter salt " So I found

it It's everywhere... well, only in the pharmacies and they have

" fix " prices for all the products. We don't have here different places

where you can actually buy vitamins and supplements. You can only find

all those things in the pharmacies. And as I said, usually all the

products have the same price everywhere.

350g of magnesium sulfate would be $1.5-2, which for Romania is A LOT,

believe me.

Hope you have a great Christmas, Andy. Happy and full of good

surprises Merry Christmas!

Valentina

> In the US you can buy large cartons of epsom salts

> (magnesium sulfate)

> to use for soaking sprained ankles, etc. It is quite commonly used

> for this and has been for hundreds of years. I am sure you can find

> larger quantities at reasonable prices for something other than

> laxative use.

>

> Here if you go to the store and ask for magnesium sulfate they say

> they don't have it, but if you ask for epsom salts they point right

at

> it on the shelf. Perhaps it has an older name it is sold under?

[Guest guest]

Moria,

You said:

(I tested as in the reference range.)

Which reference range? I imagine there are at least a dozen different

values that you need to know before you can make any reasonable analysis of

the sulfur chemistry. It is very complicated, especially because some

sulfur values go up in blood during sulfur starvation, so it is VERY easy

to misinterpret the data. 92% of those with autism have a sulfur

deficiency problem as measured by several functional tests. I don't know

that Dr. Waring (who has measured the sulfur chemistry in hundreds of those

with autism) has ever reported finding a person with high sulfur. She has

found about 8% have normal sulfur; the rest appear to be deficient. Having

cysteine elevated in the blood is NOT a marker of sulfur sufficiency. It

may very well be a marker of blocked chemistry: either enzymatically, or a

transporter problem.

>best,

>Moria

>

>

>

>

>=======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

> Moria,

>

> You said:

>

> (I tested as in the reference range.)

>

> Which reference range? I imagine there are at least a dozen

different

> values that you need to know before you can make any reasonable

analysis of

> the sulfur chemistry. It is very complicated,

I haven't found it to be so, and those who use the simple approach get

a lot better immediately. Most of those who use the complicated

approach don't.

Remember, science is DEFINED as the simplest explanation consistent

with all known facts. All the people spouting really really

complicated theories are by definition not being scientific about

things.

>especially because

some

> sulfur values go up in blood during sulfur starvation, so it is VERY

easy

> to misinterpret the data. 92% of those with autism have a sulfur

> deficiency problem as measured by several functional tests.

Strange how so much more than 8% of them improve on thiol RESTRICTION,

and get worse on thiol supplementation then. The above theory isn't

consistent with observation, so it is scientifically proven false.

>I don't

know

> that Dr. Waring (who has measured the sulfur chemistry in hundreds

of those

> with autism) has ever reported finding a person with high sulfur.

She has

> found about 8% have normal sulfur; the rest appear to be deficient.

Having

> cysteine elevated in the blood is NOT a marker of sulfur

sufficiency.

People with elevated cysteine improve on sulfur restriction and get

worse (often dramatically so) on dietary sulfur supplementation. This

is 1/3 to 1/2 of all seriously mercury toxic people. If people are

doing experiments that don't pick this up, they need to design new

experiments that measure relevant parameters.

While you can make semantic arguments about 'sufficient,' 'deficent,'

'blockages,' etc. I discourage you from using words in other than

their plain english meanings any more than is essential as it obscures

communications with people who need information to figure out how to

help their children get well.

>It

> may very well be a marker of blocked chemistry: either

enzymatically, or a

> transporter problem.

>

>

>

>

> >best,

> >Moria

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >=======================================================

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Well, I'm glad Andy answered this one--- I could not have addressed

the technical points you made. However, I will go ahead and answer

the (relatively minor) personal aspect, as here:

>> You said:

>>

>> (I tested as in the reference range.)

>>

>> Which reference range?

The one for plasma cysteine (with an E in the middle) -- which is

the one Andy recommends testing. BTW, I did not test it until

I had already been chelating for a few months, so, of course,

I don't know if it changed (or was " problematic " ) prior to this.

best,

Moria

[Guest guest]

Moria,

I appreciate your observation that you only measured it after starting

chelation. That could make a difference. It reminds me of what happened

with my daughter, who only began getting lab tests after she was on the gf

cf diet and epsom salt regime. We don't know what anything looked like

before then. Some of her later blood work looked a bit suggestive of

Hartnup Syndrome, but not as extreme. This is a very, very rare and

presumed-to-be-genetic disorder. It is in fact so rare that we could not

locate another patient through the rare disease databases, non-profit

groups, hospitals or through the internet. My daughter shared the

following with Hartnups: very low niacin levels, elevated IAG,

sun-sensitive rashes, developmental delay, certain episodic behavioral

changes, and an unusual pattern in her plasma and urinary amino acids that

seemed reminiscent of Hartnups, but not as extreme.

After I read every article on this syndrome I could find in the medical

library, I found an article that was quite surprised by its own

result. Patients and their doctors had reported Hartnup symptoms easing

considerably when the patients ate protein (something true of my daughter),

so one group did a lab experiment using the typical protein used by

scientists experimentally...casein. Quite opposite to expectations, this

" casein " form of protein made the aminoacid problem MUCH WORSE. Was this

because they used casein rather than some generic and non-developmentally

regulated protein?

My daughter's amino acids were never measured while she was getting casein

and gluten, only after, so we have no idea if her amino acids would have

been worse while she was drinking milk. That made me realize that if my

daughter had Hartnups, her labs might look a bit too normal for the

diagnosis because she was already " treated " . That's when I tried to find a

REAL Hartnups patient to see what they would look like on Shattock or

Karl Reichelt's peptide tests but just couldn't find anybody.

Anyway, Moria, I'm really eager to see if we could get some cell biologists

to address some of the issues about what DMSA and/or ALA in " chelation

quantities " might be doing cellularly besides chelation, and how that might

improve symptoms or laboratory results generally felt to be related to

mercury toxicity, but also seen in sulfur deficiency (which mercury

toxicity may induce). We might be surprised!

Just out of curiosity, listmates, those of you who have had cysteine in

plasma measured and found it to be " up " , did you have it measured before or

after starting a program with DMSA or ALA or any other chelating agent?

At 07:31 AM 12/28/2001 -0800, you wrote:

>Hello ,

>

>Well, I'm glad Andy answered this one--- I could not have addressed

>the technical points you made. However, I will go ahead and answer

>the (relatively minor) personal aspect, as here:

>

> >> You said:

> >>

> >> (I tested as in the reference range.)

> >>

> >> Which reference range?

>

>The one for plasma cysteine (with an E in the middle) -- which is

>the one Andy recommends testing. BTW, I did not test it until

>I had already been chelating for a few months, so, of course,

>I don't know if it changed (or was " problematic " ) prior to this.

>

>best,

>Moria

>

>

>

>=======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

Andy,

>I haven't found it to be so, and those who use the simple approach get

>a lot better immediately. Most of those who use the complicated

>approach don't.

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the " complicated approach " ! Whose approach are

you talking about?

>Remember, science is DEFINED as the simplest explanation consistent

>with all known facts.

I've just been in graduate school, so it did not take me long to discover

that what is being taught at the graduate level regarding the sulfur

chemistry is about thirty years behind what is in the literature. For that

reason, we might very well have a different set of what we deem " all known

facts " . A great deal of well-established facts about the sulfate and

sulfur chemistry never made it out of unpopular sub-disciplines into

college textbooks, but are well-discussed and corroborated within certain

fields. Believe me, Andy, I'm no glutton for punishment. If there had

been nothing to learn about the sulfur chemistry, I would have quit five

years ago!

> All the people spouting really really

>complicated theories are by definition not being scientific about

>things.

It doesn't do to simplify the search to a narrower set than the possible

factors that could influence or explain the results. The actual problem in

each person is as complicated or as simple as it actually is, despite

whatever efforts we make to understand it. I have been told by people

learning English that they wish it had fewer exceptions and fewer idioms,

but wishing for that doesn't make it so!

> >especially because

>some

> > sulfur values go up in blood during sulfur starvation, so it is VERY

>easy

> > to misinterpret the data. 92% of those with autism have a sulfur

> > deficiency problem as measured by several functional tests.

>

>Strange how so much more than 8% of them improve on thiol RESTRICTION,

>and get worse on thiol supplementation then.

I am as anxious as you to understand WHY they can't tolerate specific

supplements or foods and to find a way to work around or stop the reason

for the bad reaction. If you had a child who was throwing up his food, you

wouldn't decide that food is a bad thing per se, for we all know we have to

have food to survive. But you would try to find a reason the child is ill

which could explain why the child's system is responding in that way to

something it needs. Wouldn't it be a little odd to interpret a child

throwing up as meaning that the child had too much food? Or if a child's

meal is still in his stomach undigested after many hours, wouldn't it be a

bad conclusion to think the child was fed too much? The question is: why

does the child have problems utilizing something it needs and that is

normal to tolerate easily?

Andy, I certainly believe yours and other reports of bad reactions to

sulfur supplements. I just think it doesn't fit the facts about autism to

suppose as many as a half to a third have too much sulfur systemically just

because a lab value (with a very limited track record of use) is high that

would have other reasons to elevate besides the one you propose.

>People with elevated cysteine improve on sulfur restriction and get

>worse (often dramatically so) on dietary sulfur supplementation.

Let me be sure I'm understanding what you are saying. Are you saying

someone by restricting sulfur without any other changes (including

chelation) will get better longterm without any other intervention? Are

you including staying away from ALA and DMSA which both contain sulfur?

> This

>is 1/3 to 1/2 of all seriously mercury toxic people.

I would love to see plasma amino acid profiles from this 1/3 to 1/2 of

mercury toxic people. If anyone has a complete plasma profile (40+ amino

acids) I could see whether these profiles suggest that the body is breaking

down muscle to get at the amino acids there, which is the body's way of

adjusting to sulfur restriction. Cysteine is added to the blood by the

kidneys, but it isn't clear what regulates that process or where the

cysteine is coming from. It isn't coming from the blood, unless it is from

recycling some other form of sulfur.

> If people are

>doing experiments that don't pick this up, they need to design new

>experiments that measure relevant parameters.

I " m trying, Andy. It takes money. What's on your dreamlist?

>While you can make semantic arguments about 'sufficient,' 'deficent,'

>'blockages,' etc. I discourage you from using words in other than

>their plain english meanings any more than is essential as it obscures

>communications with people who need information to figure out how to

>help their children get well.

OK, I'll try. Please listmates, if I use a term you don't understand, tell

me, and I'll try again.

Thanks for your comments, Andy.

[Guest guest]

,

Just curious if you know about and checked with NORD (National Organization of

Rare Disorders)?

S

On Sat, 29 December 2001, Owens wrote:

>

> <html><body>

>

>

> <tt>

> Moria,<BR>

> <BR>

> I appreciate your observation that you only measured it after starting <BR>

> chelation. & nbsp; That could make a difference. & nbsp; It reminds me of what

happened <BR>

> with my daughter, who only began getting lab tests after she was on the gf

<BR>

> cf diet and epsom salt regime. We don't know what anything looked like <BR>

> before then. Some of her later blood work looked a bit suggestive of <BR>

> Hartnup Syndrome, but not as extreme. & nbsp; This is a very, very rare and <BR>

> presumed-to-be-genetic disorder. & nbsp; It is in fact so rare that we could not

<BR>

> locate another patient through the rare disease databases, non-profit <BR>

> groups, hospitals or through the internet. & nbsp; My daughter shared the <BR>

> following with Hartnups: very low niacin levels, elevated IAG, <BR>

> sun-sensitive rashes, developmental delay, certain episodic behavioral <BR>

> changes, and an unusual pattern in her plasma and urinary amino acids that

<BR>

> seemed reminiscent of Hartnups, but not as extreme.<BR>

> <BR>

> After I read every article on this syndrome I could find in the medical <BR>

> library, I found an article that was quite surprised by its own <BR>

> result. & nbsp; Patients and their doctors had reported Hartnup symptoms easing

<BR>

> considerably when the patients ate protein (something true of my daughter),

<BR>

> so one group did a lab experiment using the typical protein used by <BR>

> scientists experimentally...casein. & nbsp; Quite opposite to expectations, this

<BR>

> & quot;casein & quot; form of protein made the aminoacid problem MUCH

WORSE. & nbsp; Was this <BR>

> because they used casein rather than some generic and non-developmentally <BR>

> regulated protein?<BR>

> <BR>

> My daughter's amino acids were never measured while she was getting casein

<BR>

> and gluten, only after, so we have no idea if her amino acids would have <BR>

> been worse while she was drinking milk. & nbsp; That made me realize that if my

<BR>

> daughter had Hartnups, her labs might look a bit too normal for the <BR>

> diagnosis because she was already & quot;treated & quot;. & nbsp; That's when I

tried to find a <BR>

> REAL Hartnups patient to see what they would look like on Shattock or

<BR>

> Karl Reichelt's peptide tests but just couldn't find anybody.<BR>

> <BR>

> Anyway, Moria, I'm really eager to see if we could get some cell biologists

<BR>

> to address some of the issues about what DMSA and/or ALA in & quot;chelation

<BR>

> quantities & quot; might be doing cellularly besides chelation, and how that

might <BR>

> improve symptoms or laboratory results generally felt to be related to <BR>

> mercury toxicity, but also seen in sulfur deficiency (which mercury <BR>

> toxicity may induce). & nbsp; We might be surprised!<BR>

> <BR>

> Just out of curiosity, listmates, those of you who have had cysteine in <BR>

> plasma measured and found it to be & quot;up & quot;, did you have it measured

before or <BR>

> after starting a program with DMSA or ALA or any other chelating agent?<BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> <BR>

> & nbsp; At 07:31 AM 12/28/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>

> & gt;Hello ,<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;Well, I'm glad Andy answered this one--- I could not have addressed<BR>

> & gt;the technical points you made. & nbsp; However, I will go ahead and

answer<BR>

> & gt;the (relatively minor) personal aspect, as here:<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt; & gt; & gt; You said:<BR>

> & gt; & gt; & gt;<BR>

> & gt; & gt; & gt; (I tested as in the reference range.)<BR>

> & gt; & gt; & gt;<BR>

> & gt; & gt; & gt; Which reference range?<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;The one for plasma cysteine (with an E in the middle) -- which is<BR>

> & gt;the one Andy recommends testing. & nbsp; BTW, I did not test it until<BR>

> & gt;I had already been chelating for a few months, so, of course,<BR>

> & gt;I don't know if it changed (or was & quot;problematic & quot;) prior to

this.<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;best,<BR>

> & gt;Moria<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;=======================================================<BR>

> & gt;

[Guest guest]

,

Oh, yes! They were one of the first people I thought of contacting. I

already had gotten to know them from some telephone conversations and

letters a little earlier before I had even heard of Hartnups. It was

Shattock's work on IAG that brought this condition to my attention.

At 05:49 PM 12/29/2001 -0800, you wrote:

>,

>Just curious if you know about and checked with NORD (National

>Organization of Rare Disorders)?

> S

[Guest guest]

> Andy,

>

>

> >I haven't found it to be so, and those who use the simple approach

get

> >a lot better immediately. Most of those who use the complicated

> >approach don't.

>

> Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the " complicated approach " ! Whose

approach are

> you talking about?

Yours. I believe you are familiar with your own thoughts and

theorizing. Most " alternative " doctors also take this approach. The

" complicated approach " always comes down to a lot of very complicated

discussion that leads up to " you need to eat more sulfury stuff

despite that test result. "

> >Remember, science is DEFINED as the simplest explanation consistent

> >with all known facts.

>

> I've just been in graduate school, so it did not take me long to

discover

> that what is being taught at the graduate level regarding the sulfur

> chemistry is about thirty years behind what is in the literature.

For that

> reason, we might very well have a different set of what we deem " all

known

> facts " .

No doubt. You still are trapped in the fallacy that a complicated

literature is scientific, and are so overwhelmed with the complicated

literature that you haven't made observations or talked to people.

All known facts include your observations and those of others, but do

NOT include an uncritical acceptance of everything in the literature.

The literature is alleged facts, and the first theory you test it

against is " this paper is something other than what was actually

observed, that the author chose to report for some reason unknown to

me. " Most papers turn out to satisfy this hypothesis when considered

in light of personal experience or observations by you or others close

enough to you that you can be sure they are conveying it accurately.

The relevant known fact is the clinical observation that people with

elevated plasma cysteine improve on sulfur restriction regardless of

what their other test results are. Any theory not consistent with

this is wrong.

>A great deal of well-established facts about the sulfate and

> sulfur chemistry never made it out of unpopular sub-disciplines into

> college textbooks, but are well-discussed and corroborated within

certain

> fields. Believe me, Andy, I'm no glutton for punishment. If there

had

> been nothing to learn about the sulfur chemistry, I would have quit

five

> years ago!

I am not disputing that it is a complex field. I am disputing the

idea that science is composed of compex theories that are not

consistent with observation.

> > All the people spouting really really

> >complicated theories are by definition not being scientific about

> >things.

>

> It doesn't do to simplify the search to a narrower set than the

possible

> factors that could influence or explain the results.

You are introducing inappropriate confusion here. You can have all

the complexity you want in your observations. The more the better.

If the theory is complicated, it is by definition not scientific.

Science was first defined in the 11th century as consisting of the

simplest theory consistent with all known facts and the definition

hasn't changed since then. It is so central to science that it is

taught to everyone in grade school - do all the readers remember

something vaguely about Occam's Razor? Sir of Occam was the

first to state this definition of science.

>The actual problem in

> each person is as complicated or as simple as it actually is,

despite

> whatever efforts we make to understand it. I have been told by

people

> learning English that they wish it had fewer exceptions and fewer

idioms,

> but wishing for that doesn't make it so!

Wishing doesn't make science something other than it has been for the

last 900 years.

> > >especially because

> >some

> > > sulfur values go up in blood during sulfur starvation, so it is

VERY

> >easy

> > > to misinterpret the data. 92% of those with autism have a

sulfur

> > > deficiency problem as measured by several functional tests.

First you define 92% as having a sulfur deficiency, then you find some

or other test you proclaim to demonstrate it. This is unscientific.

The tests come first, the interpretation of what they mean later.

Interpretation is subject to Occam's Razor as to whether or not it is

an acceptable scientific theory. The above fails that test.

> >Strange how so much more than 8% of them improve on thiol

RESTRICTION,

> >and get worse on thiol supplementation then.

This is the observation that falsifies the above theory. Once

falsified, the theory is forever unscientific.

> I am as anxious as you to understand WHY they can't tolerate

specific

> supplements or foods and to find a way to work around or stop the

reason

> for the bad reaction. If you had a child who was throwing up his

food, you

> wouldn't decide that food is a bad thing per se, for we all know we

have to

> have food to survive. But you would try to find a reason the child

is ill

> which could explain why the child's system is responding in that way

to

> something it needs. Wouldn't it be a little odd to interpret a

child

> throwing up as meaning that the child had too much food?

Not at all. In fact, that happens frequently and was one of the forms

of abuse Sheldon was subjected to by his father - repeated

overfeedings at age 2, leading to repeated vomiting. The vomiting of

course got rid of ALL the food, so Sheldon suffered growth failure

until the problem was understood and it was arranged for others to

feed him lesser amounts of food.

This problem is common enough to be discussed in some pediatric

textbooks and to be well known among doctors.

>Or if a child's

> meal is still in his stomach undigested after many hours, wouldn't

it be a

> bad conclusion to think the child was fed too much?

No. It depends on gathering other facts to determine whether he was

fed too much (how many of the list readers got indigestion at

Thanksgiving and then again at Christmas from eating too much? It is

common) or is not digesting properly. Medicine is at least scientific

enough that the doc's take a detailed history to try to have enough

information in hand to distinguish between competing theories.

>The question is: why

> does the child have problems utilizing something it needs

This demonstrates the antithesis of scientific thinking, and also

something that Socrates complained about 2500 years ago which is still

common - in asking your question you define the answer. The children

do NOT need more sulfur in all cases. Your question is wrong. It

fails all tests of both science, logic, and responsible discourse (it

is, however, good rhetoric).

> and that is normal to tolerate easily?

These children are abnormal. Their failure to tolerate something that

normally is tolerated may be tied to the abnormality, and in fact it

is observed (and is therefore a scientific fact) that when the lab

result is normalized their condition improves.

Remember one of the most basic rules of science. Observations are

facts. Theories are NOT facts. Observations are true. Theories are

NEVER proven true, the current ones simply haven't been proven false

yet.

> Andy, I certainly believe yours and other reports of bad reactions

to

> sulfur supplements. I just think it doesn't fit the facts about

autism to

> suppose as many as a half to a third have too much sulfur

It doens't FIT the facts, it IS the facts. It is observed.

Observations are facts. Theories are NOT facts. This is

definitional. If you do not accept this you are not practicing

science. This is the way it has been for 900 years.

> systemically just

> because a lab value (with a very limited track record of use) is

high that

> would have other reasons to elevate besides the one you propose.

Let me make a correct scientific statement here.

The relevant FACTS isare the observations that 1/3 to 1/2 of mercury

toxic children (and adults) have elevated plasma cysteine on the Great

Smokies test. This is fact #1. Fact #2 is that it is observed that

all these people improve on sulfur restriction. The flip side of this

fact is that those with LOW cysteine results improve when they

increase their sulfur intake.

Those are the facts. They are observed. In a scientific sense, they

are true.

My THEORY as to why it happens is that they have a systemic excess of

thiols, for which cysteine is an adequate surrogate. Since this is a

theory, it is in no way a fact like the above observations. It may

well prove wrong in the long term. However, it IS consistent with the

above observations. Thus it satisfies Occam's Razor as to being

scientific.

Your theory is that these children should improve on increasing sulfur

intake. This is contrary to the above observations and is therefore

an incorrect theory. There is no need to discuss it further.

> >People with elevated cysteine improve on sulfur restriction and get

> >worse (often dramatically so) on dietary sulfur supplementation.

>

> Let me be sure I'm understanding what you are saying. Are you

saying

> someone by restricting sulfur without any other changes (including

> chelation) will get better longterm without any other intervention?

As long as they remain on the restriction diet, yes.

> Are

> you including staying away from ALA and DMSA which both contain

sulfur?

As we have discussed on the list in detail, I use the term " sulfur "

and " sulfur foods " loosely since if I use more accurate terms nobody

has a clue what I am saying except you and 2 or 3 others with

appropriate chemical background.

DMSA and DMPS do not contribute to the body pool of thiols. DMSA in

fact reduces it slighlty by consuming cysteine.

ALA does increase the body pool of thiols significantly (by exporting

reducing equivalents from the mitochondria) and elevates cysteine

levels while it is in the system. Sulfur sensitive people who take

ALA do have a " sulfur reaction " to it and do need to watch their dose

and ensure they are on a rigid sulfur exclusion diet when they do it.

Sulfate does not interconvert with other sources of sulfur and does

not contribute to the thiol pool. Those with a " sulfur problem " can

take all the sulfate they wish without ill effect on thiol levels.

Clinically it is observed that MSM and DMSO do participate in the

" sulfur problem " and that people with elevated cysteine need to avoid

them. I don't know why this is so.

> > This

> >is 1/3 to 1/2 of all seriously mercury toxic people.

>

> I would love to see plasma amino acid profiles from this 1/3 to 1/2

of

> mercury toxic people.

Those don't tell you anything. The only relevant test is plasma

cysteine, which is not on any amino acid profile I know of as a single

analyte. Some of these people have also run plasma amino profiles and

if you ask around you can probably collect yourself up a big set of

them.

>If anyone has a complete plasma profile (40+ amino

> acids) I could see whether these profiles suggest that the body is

breaking

> down muscle to get at the amino acids there, which is the body's way

of

> adjusting to sulfur restriction.

The plasma aminos for these people do not show that. These people are

apparently sulfur replete despite dietary restriction. Apparently

their body simply conserves the stuff well.

>Cysteine is added to the blood by the

> kidneys, but it isn't clear what regulates that process or where the

> cysteine is coming from. It isn't coming from the blood, unless it

is from

> recycling some other form of sulfur.

I thought you knew the literature. Cysteine is simply the reduces

form of cystine. The kidneys reabsorb cysteine quite well. The body

simply appears to be pushed towards the thiol side of the

thiol/disulfide equilibrium, to have a high ratio of cysteine to

cystine, and to thus hold onto the stuff well.

>

> > If people are

> >doing experiments that don't pick this up, they need to design new

> >experiments that measure relevant parameters.

>

> I " m trying, Andy. It takes money. What's on your dreamlist?

Actually I am a lot more interested in getting rid of all the federal

money so that all the current experiments go away and people have to

pay attention to what is already known in making their theories. I

think there is 50-100 years of medical advance already available in

the data that is laying around that nobody works up because it is hard

to do - they just apply for another grant to generate more data.

E. g. there was much chemical literature on the amalgam problemn int

he 1920's and 30's and it is still being ignored. And all the

literature necessary to show there is a severe problem with medical

mercury exposure is 10-20 years old. If there wasn't so much money

around to play with perhaps the researchers would have figured this

out 10-20 years ago and we wouldn't be on list trying to help people's

kids get better because thimerosal would have been taken out of

vaccines before these kids got their shots.

> >While you can make semantic arguments about 'sufficient,'

'deficent,'

> >'blockages,' etc. I discourage you from using words in other than

> >their plain english meanings any more than is essential as it

obscures

> >communications with people who need information to figure out how

to

> >help their children get well.

>

> OK, I'll t