Re: RE: jump start motivation

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/22/2006 11:20:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, karl@... writes:

If you meant something else by "jump starting motivation"... then never mindwhat I just said! :}Best wishes,-Karl Accelerations Educational Softwarewww.dttrainer.com

LOL, you had great things to say! So even if it doesn't answer the question, it gives ideas and good outline of how this works.

Roxanna ô¿öAutism Happens

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/23/2006 8:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

So, having trouble finding a way to apply the ABA principles to this intrinsic value of motivation or is it having pride or finding joy in being able to do something for yourself? Is it independence? or the resisting of independence? Some of these things are pretty hard to pin down.

You are given motivation to do something (motivator) or you feel motivation inside yourself. I think you are asking how to build her internal motivation? Yes?

I think a variety of things can do this. The underwear vs. diaper episode that you mention is something I would not have given a choice to do. Don't you want to wear the pretty undies? Not a choice and not the question I would have asked. I would have instead made the choice about which color or character you want on your new undies. Then I would have let people know (grandma, daddy people) that she is wearing her Dora undies so they can be sure to make a big fuss over it. Lots of hugs, praise and positive attention about those Dora undies and how they make her look so pretty, so big, so grown up, etc. Each day she kept Dora dry would be another day for attention and praise. Maybe a trip to rent the Dora video she's wanting to watch because she's been such a big girl.

You have to adapt it to her style. Or perhaps she has no particular style to grasp on to - then I'd help her connect with something and make it exciting if possible. I think it is true that internal motivation is so hard sometimes in kids with autism. I know because I have two of them dx'd with autism. the 17 yo has no motivation at all, ever. It is so hard to work on that with that age! Much easier with my 9 yo and too bad I didn't know more years before....ahhh.

The problem is a lot of kids with autism would be happy to be left alone to stim and ignore the world. It is very hard to compete with that but you just chip away at it. You can teach the skill in a rote way and then find ways to generalize it. I think internalizing it would come from daily use and the positive reinforcing that came with it. You know, she may not care about being a "big girl" but she learns that it is a good thing because everyone else thinks it is a big deal and makes it a big deal, which is reinforcing to her. I also think that comes from the previous post mentioning "fluency." Just like reading skills - you learn to read piece by piece, then you read for content (to fill out the stupid school assignment!) and you have the skills now to read for fun and pleasure. THis is the reinforcing aspect - because it is fun to do it. And not everyone has the same fun reading the same things. So it is very individualized.

Another aspect to consider, IMO, is that kids with autism have problems with memory and relating things together. So reinforcing something may not connect with the next time, as you want it to do. I think in some situations, it is a good idea to find ways to help her remember the good part of being a big girl - or whatever internal motivation you are wanting to instill - by taking lots of pictures as she is being postively reinforced and making a little photo booklet (one of those pocket photo albums from Walmart that cost $2 or so) and this could be her way to remember great experiences, good feelings, being proud of herslef, etc. This can help internalize the feeling because you can keep recalling the event or situations that can make her feel special. I think NT kids are quick to connect these dots without photo albums. But we need prompting.

Roxanna ô¿ôDon't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

There is something else here, something I just cannot put my finger on that causes this. I'm asking here, but why wouldn't a child be proud of their accomplishments?

Because they have autism. And what we think should be motivating is not motivating to them.

I didn't mean to say you guys didn't praise her enough - we all do that as parents. I meant to say that when we break down to basics and identify what we are trying to accomplish, we can focus in on that area and part of that is to reinforce the specific response we want to see. So in an ABA program, you would be using a lot of praise for specific responses you wanted to see. And you would often have to teach the response you want because it doesn't come naturally. Just like we teach reading to kids, we have to teach social things to our kids, skills, feelings, responses, etc.

Also, I don't mean she doesn't have a memory for facts and details but the bigger problem is remembering a feeling or internal feeling we want to reinforce that goes along with that fact. So it would not be, "Look at this picture, you are wearing your big girl undies!" but rather, "Look at how happy you are. Look at how proud daddy is at how big you are." etc. So you can start connecting the event with the feelings we want her to notice, take on, internalize.

My two boys w/HFA also remember details very well but feelings are different. And also, they tend to remember things a specific way (don't we all) and it is sometimes nice to add another perspective as well. But that's another long post, lol.

Roxanna ô¿öAutism Happens

[Guest guest]

Karl,

I do appreciate all the time you took to plot this out for me. She has lots of spontaneous speech, several years above age level.

I was speaking more about motivation, although initiation is a part. She has never bought what other kids buy as part of being grown up, seemed to always get that with the grown up stuff was more responsibility. When she was being potty trained we asked her wouldn't she like to wear big girl potty pants and her response was she would rather be a baby and wear diapers. This at 2.5 years.

Although she has the capability, she resists, despite adequate modeling and praise. My dh and I are very motivated, ambitious personalities, but she seems to resist moving forward in all but what she is interested in.

So, having trouble finding a way to apply the ABA principles to this intrinsic value of motivation or is it having pride or finding joy in being able to do something for yourself? Is it independence? or the resisting of independence? Some of these things are pretty hard to pin down.

Thanks again,

----- Original Message -----

From: Karl W.

Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:09 PM

Subject: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

Hi ,... jump starting "motivation". Probably what you are looking for is jumpstarting "initiation". To get someone to initiate, you would transitionfrom verbal and physical prompts to situational prompts. You would need tobuild some number of situations where he is initiating before he would startspontaneously initiating in an untaught situation.Basically, you pair the situation with supporting verbal and/or physicalprompts. Fade out the verbal and/or physical prompts until the situation isthe only prompt.So, for example I want my son to say hi to me when I come home. I walk inthe door and he should say "hi dad" to start a conversation. My walking inthe door is the situational prompt. (This is the natural prompt that the rest of us know to use as it is politefor one or the other to start the exchange. If one person does not start,generally the other person will. We do not choose to do it all the time,but we recognize it as a standard social interaction.) I may start with opening the door, raising my hand to the wave position, andprompting verbally ("say hi dad") for my son to say "hi dad". I then givehim a favorite reinforcer and may pair it with less favorite but sociallyappropriate interactions. As quickly as possible, shorten the verbal prompt maintaining the physicalhand wave while coming in the door. So "hi dad" may be shortened to "hi d"to "hi" to "h" to silence. Then fade the raised hand wave by each time notraising it as high until you are just walking in the door. Of course youwill use wait time and increasing the prompt if he is not initiatingcompletely. For a lower functioning individual this process may take awhile so be patient.You could do this with just "hi" to start and vary the people. If there areseveral people involved you need to track results to insure consistencybetween those participating. You can either start with various people doingthis, or you can generalize to other people once his initiation isconsistent with you.You need to work on fluency (immediate or quick initiation) if this does notcome automatically.At some point you can turn the task into him entering a room or othersituation and saying hi. So at school it is "hi Mrs. X" when he gets out ofthe car to great his teacher, or "hi everybody" when he walks into theclassroom.Getting our kids to initiate in social situations is frequently hard sincesocial interactions are not motivating. You generally need to start withextra reinforcements but pair with conventional ones. Getting a child toinitiate asking for a cookie or other favorite food is usually quite easysince the reinforcement is intrinsic. You can use contrived situations and sabotage to create these initiationopportunities. These initiations frequently taught in the environmentswhere they would occur. You may first need to teach supporting skills.You use at least the basic ABA principles of providing individual specificreinforcement and reinforcement fading, controlling the stimulation toinsure inappropriate behaviors and incorrect answers are not reinforced, andproviding a support structure to take the individual from where he can notfail and building him to where he can perform independently.These initiation skills should be built at home and school.Look for favorite activities but also work on initiation of important socialinteractions. First make sure you have basic initiations of requests fordesired items.If you meant something else by "jump starting motivation"... then never mindwhat I just said! :}Best wishes,-Karl Accelerations Educational Softwarewww.dttrainer.comMessage 1 From: " Cochran" Ladyshrink111@... Date: Mon May 22, 2006 9:20am(PDT) Subject: Re: ABA/MFEThanks, Shane and Roxanne for your detailed answers to my many questions.Certainly not inexpensive, I can see why so many mothers who opt for ABAwould have to work, at a minimum 1600 a week would put a dent in mostbudgets, or you would have to learn to do it yourself, as I said, with youngchildren, I think is the better way to go.No takers on how you use ABA to jump start motivation? I do get how youwould increase more concrete skills with ABA, but how does one instillmotivation, a more intrinisic quality? Is this beyond the scope of ABA?TIA,

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is internal motivation for sure. She was not given a choice, but we often ask that stupid question trying to make sense of why she might not be internally motivated? She was potty trained in a week, with bribes of "crabby patties" for successful potty going.

She is fully aware and connected, has never stimmed. And, we honestly, could not be more capable of the praising or hugs or positive rewards. Everyone makes a big deal of her accomplishments including grandparents and there are special trips for accomplishments.

Despite the positives, I sometimes catch her doing something, like opening the car door by herself, and she will try to hide that she has done it. WTH????

And no memory problems, have tested that, excellent short term and long term memory, no sequential problems. Poor kid has been tested every which way from Sunday everyday by this psychologist! She can recall immediately anything that happened the day before or the year before, or what she ate for lunch if you ask her at dinner. We built a house when she was 14 months old, which we lived in only a year, until she was 24 months. We never had any pictures of her bedroom, but when she was 3.5 she described to me in detail what the room was like right down to the placement of the furniture.

There is something else here, something I just cannot put my finger on that causes this. I'm asking here, but why wouldn't a child be proud of their accomplishments?

I think the photo book would be a good idea, not because she can't connect it, but because she might like to look at it, she does love attention despite the enormous amounts of attention she has already received. I have friends who say she gets too much attention, is that possible? I always was taught/believed you could not spoil a child with too much attention. She is forcing me to rethink this.

Thanks for the idea, Roxanne,

----- Original Message -----

From: kneeleee@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:20 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

In a message dated 5/23/2006 8:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

So, having trouble finding a way to apply the ABA principles to this intrinsic value of motivation or is it having pride or finding joy in being able to do something for yourself? Is it independence? or the resisting of independence? Some of these things are pretty hard to pin down.

You are given motivation to do something (motivator) or you feel motivation inside yourself. I think you are asking how to build her internal motivation? Yes?

I think a variety of things can do this. The underwear vs. diaper episode that you mention is something I would not have given a choice to do. Don't you want to wear the pretty undies? Not a choice and not the question I would have asked. I would have instead made the choice about which color or character you want on your new undies. Then I would have let people know (grandma, daddy people) that she is wearing her Dora undies so they can be sure to make a big fuss over it. Lots of hugs, praise and positive attention about those Dora undies and how they make her look so pretty, so big, so grown up, etc. Each day she kept Dora dry would be another day for attention and praise. Maybe a trip to rent the Dora video she's wanting to watch because she's been such a big girl.

You have to adapt it to her style. Or perhaps she has no particular style to grasp on to - then I'd help her connect with something and make it exciting if possible. I think it is true that internal motivation is so hard sometimes in kids with autism. I know because I have two of them dx'd with autism. the 17 yo has no motivation at all, ever. It is so hard to work on that with that age! Much easier with my 9 yo and too bad I didn't know more years before....ahhh.

The problem is a lot of kids with autism would be happy to be left alone to stim and ignore the world. It is very hard to compete with that but you just chip away at it. You can teach the skill in a rote way and then find ways to generalize it. I think internalizing it would come from daily use and the positive reinforcing that came with it. You know, she may not care about being a "big girl" but she learns that it is a good thing because everyone else thinks it is a big deal and makes it a big deal, which is reinforcing to her. I also think that comes from the previous post mentioning "fluency." Just like reading skills - you learn to read piece by piece, then you read for content (to fill out the stupid school assignment!) and you have the skills now to read for fun and pleasure. THis is the reinforcing aspect - because it is fun to do it. And not everyone has the same fun reading the same things. So it is very individualized.

Another aspect to consider, IMO, is that kids with autism have problems with memory and relating things together. So reinforcing something may not connect with the next time, as you want it to do. I think in some situations, it is a good idea to find ways to help her remember the good part of being a big girl - or whatever internal motivation you are wanting to instill - by taking lots of pictures as she is being postively reinforced and making a little photo booklet (one of those pocket photo albums from Walmart that cost $2 or so) and this could be her way to remember great experiences, good feelings, being proud of herslef, etc. This can help internalize the feeling because you can keep recalling the event or situations that can make her feel special. I think NT kids are quick to connect these dots without photo albums. But we need prompting.

Roxanna ô¿ôDon't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

[Guest guest]

I do know from my reading in school that people with a high need for achievement (pathological) are people who most likely had parents who ignored them until they did achieve, so the achievement gets paired with attention.

Perhaps this is just a logical consequence of spending sooooo much time with her and praising for effort instead of the final result. Gosh do you have to mess them up to get a child who is motivated?

----- Original Message -----

From: Cochran

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

Yes, it is internal motivation for sure. She was not given a choice, but we often ask that stupid question trying to make sense of why she might not be internally motivated? She was potty trained in a week, with bribes of "crabby patties" for successful potty going.

She is fully aware and connected, has never stimmed. And, we honestly, could not be more capable of the praising or hugs or positive rewards. Everyone makes a big deal of her accomplishments including grandparents and there are special trips for accomplishments.

Despite the positives, I sometimes catch her doing something, like opening the car door by herself, and she will try to hide that she has done it. WTH????

And no memory problems, have tested that, excellent short term and long term memory, no sequential problems. Poor kid has been tested every which way from Sunday everyday by this psychologist! She can recall immediately anything that happened the day before or the year before, or what she ate for lunch if you ask her at dinner. We built a house when she was 14 months old, which we lived in only a year, until she was 24 months. We never had any pictures of her bedroom, but when she was 3.5 she described to me in detail what the room was like right down to the placement of the furniture.

There is something else here, something I just cannot put my finger on that causes this. I'm asking here, but why wouldn't a child be proud of their accomplishments?

I think the photo book would be a good idea, not because she can't connect it, but because she might like to look at it, she does love attention despite the enormous amounts of attention she has already received. I have friends who say she gets too much attention, is that possible? I always was taught/believed you could not spoil a child with too much attention. She is forcing me to rethink this.

Thanks for the idea, Roxanne,

----- Original Message -----

From: kneeleee@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:20 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

In a message dated 5/23/2006 8:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

So, having trouble finding a way to apply the ABA principles to this intrinsic value of motivation or is it having pride or finding joy in being able to do something for yourself? Is it independence? or the resisting of independence? Some of these things are pretty hard to pin down.

You are given motivation to do something (motivator) or you feel motivation inside yourself. I think you are asking how to build her internal motivation? Yes?

I think a variety of things can do this. The underwear vs. diaper episode that you mention is something I would not have given a choice to do. Don't you want to wear the pretty undies? Not a choice and not the question I would have asked. I would have instead made the choice about which color or character you want on your new undies. Then I would have let people know (grandma, daddy people) that she is wearing her Dora undies so they can be sure to make a big fuss over it. Lots of hugs, praise and positive attention about those Dora undies and how they make her look so pretty, so big, so grown up, etc. Each day she kept Dora dry would be another day for attention and praise. Maybe a trip to rent the Dora video she's wanting to watch because she's been such a big girl.

You have to adapt it to her style. Or perhaps she has no particular style to grasp on to - then I'd help her connect with something and make it exciting if possible. I think it is true that internal motivation is so hard sometimes in kids with autism. I know because I have two of them dx'd with autism. the 17 yo has no motivation at all, ever. It is so hard to work on that with that age! Much easier with my 9 yo and too bad I didn't know more years before....ahhh.

The problem is a lot of kids with autism would be happy to be left alone to stim and ignore the world. It is very hard to compete with that but you just chip away at it. You can teach the skill in a rote way and then find ways to generalize it. I think internalizing it would come from daily use and the positive reinforcing that came with it. You know, she may not care about being a "big girl" but she learns that it is a good thing because everyone else thinks it is a big deal and makes it a big deal, which is reinforcing to her. I also think that comes from the previous post mentioning "fluency." Just like reading skills - you learn to read piece by piece, then you read for content (to fill out the stupid school assignment!) and you have the skills now to read for fun and pleasure. THis is the reinforcing aspect - because it is fun to do it. And not everyone has the same fun reading the same things. So it is very individualized.

Another aspect to consider, IMO, is that kids with autism have problems with memory and relating things together. So reinforcing something may not connect with the next time, as you want it to do. I think in some situations, it is a good idea to find ways to help her remember the good part of being a big girl - or whatever internal motivation you are wanting to instill - by taking lots of pictures as she is being postively reinforced and making a little photo booklet (one of those pocket photo albums from Walmart that cost $2 or so) and this could be her way to remember great experiences, good feelings, being proud of herslef, etc. This can help internalize the feeling because you can keep recalling the event or situations that can make her feel special. I think NT kids are quick to connect these dots without photo albums. But we need prompting.

Roxanna ô¿ôDon't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

[Guest guest]

Now bordering on obsession, I know, but could it be depression? Motivation requires a positive outlook. She appears to be happy, tells jokes, remembers them better than I do, is appropriately 5 year old silly/giggly. Likes to have jokes played on her, not too serious, although that was a problem when she was 3.5, but not now.

----- Original Message -----

From: Cochran

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

I do know from my reading in school that people with a high need for achievement (pathological) are people who most likely had parents who ignored them until they did achieve, so the achievement gets paired with attention.

Perhaps this is just a logical consequence of spending sooooo much time with her and praising for effort instead of the final result. Gosh do you have to mess them up to get a child who is motivated?

----- Original Message -----

From: Cochran

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

Yes, it is internal motivation for sure. She was not given a choice, but we often ask that stupid question trying to make sense of why she might not be internally motivated? She was potty trained in a week, with bribes of "crabby patties" for successful potty going.

She is fully aware and connected, has never stimmed. And, we honestly, could not be more capable of the praising or hugs or positive rewards. Everyone makes a big deal of her accomplishments including grandparents and there are special trips for accomplishments.

Despite the positives, I sometimes catch her doing something, like opening the car door by herself, and she will try to hide that she has done it. WTH????

And no memory problems, have tested that, excellent short term and long term memory, no sequential problems. Poor kid has been tested every which way from Sunday everyday by this psychologist! She can recall immediately anything that happened the day before or the year before, or what she ate for lunch if you ask her at dinner. We built a house when she was 14 months old, which we lived in only a year, until she was 24 months. We never had any pictures of her bedroom, but when she was 3.5 she described to me in detail what the room was like right down to the placement of the furniture.

There is something else here, something I just cannot put my finger on that causes this. I'm asking here, but why wouldn't a child be proud of their accomplishments?

I think the photo book would be a good idea, not because she can't connect it, but because she might like to look at it, she does love attention despite the enormous amounts of attention she has already received. I have friends who say she gets too much attention, is that possible? I always was taught/believed you could not spoil a child with too much attention. She is forcing me to rethink this.

Thanks for the idea, Roxanne,

----- Original Message -----

From: kneeleee@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:20 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

In a message dated 5/23/2006 8:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

So, having trouble finding a way to apply the ABA principles to this intrinsic value of motivation or is it having pride or finding joy in being able to do something for yourself? Is it independence? or the resisting of independence? Some of these things are pretty hard to pin down.

You are given motivation to do something (motivator) or you feel motivation inside yourself. I think you are asking how to build her internal motivation? Yes?

I think a variety of things can do this. The underwear vs. diaper episode that you mention is something I would not have given a choice to do. Don't you want to wear the pretty undies? Not a choice and not the question I would have asked. I would have instead made the choice about which color or character you want on your new undies. Then I would have let people know (grandma, daddy people) that she is wearing her Dora undies so they can be sure to make a big fuss over it. Lots of hugs, praise and positive attention about those Dora undies and how they make her look so pretty, so big, so grown up, etc. Each day she kept Dora dry would be another day for attention and praise. Maybe a trip to rent the Dora video she's wanting to watch because she's been such a big girl.

You have to adapt it to her style. Or perhaps she has no particular style to grasp on to - then I'd help her connect with something and make it exciting if possible. I think it is true that internal motivation is so hard sometimes in kids with autism. I know because I have two of them dx'd with autism. the 17 yo has no motivation at all, ever. It is so hard to work on that with that age! Much easier with my 9 yo and too bad I didn't know more years before....ahhh.

The problem is a lot of kids with autism would be happy to be left alone to stim and ignore the world. It is very hard to compete with that but you just chip away at it. You can teach the skill in a rote way and then find ways to generalize it. I think internalizing it would come from daily use and the positive reinforcing that came with it. You know, she may not care about being a "big girl" but she learns that it is a good thing because everyone else thinks it is a big deal and makes it a big deal, which is reinforcing to her. I also think that comes from the previous post mentioning "fluency." Just like reading skills - you learn to read piece by piece, then you read for content (to fill out the stupid school assignment!) and you have the skills now to read for fun and pleasure. THis is the reinforcing aspect - because it is fun to do it. And not everyone has the same fun reading the same things. So it is very individualized.

Another aspect to consider, IMO, is that kids with autism have problems with memory and relating things together. So reinforcing something may not connect with the next time, as you want it to do. I think in some situations, it is a good idea to find ways to help her remember the good part of being a big girl - or whatever internal motivation you are wanting to instill - by taking lots of pictures as she is being postively reinforced and making a little photo booklet (one of those pocket photo albums from Walmart that cost $2 or so) and this could be her way to remember great experiences, good feelings, being proud of herslef, etc. This can help internalize the feeling because you can keep recalling the event or situations that can make her feel special. I think NT kids are quick to connect these dots without photo albums. But we need prompting.

Roxanna ô¿ôDon't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

[Guest guest]

Ahhh, didn't think of the feeling memory. Will have to give that some thought and ask her. She could always identify other's feelings by their facial expression, but never thought of the feeling/memory attached to her own. She can correctly identify her own feelings, but maybe she can't sustain the memory of how it makes her feel.

Will test that and see and get back to you.

Thanks, Roxanne,

----- Original Message -----

From: kneeleee@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] RE: jump start motivation

In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

There is something else here, something I just cannot put my finger on that causes this. I'm asking here, but why wouldn't a child be proud of their accomplishments?

Because they have autism. And what we think should be motivating is not motivating to them.

I didn't mean to say you guys didn't praise her enough - we all do that as parents. I meant to say that when we break down to basics and identify what we are trying to accomplish, we can focus in on that area and part of that is to reinforce the specific response we want to see. So in an ABA program, you would be using a lot of praise for specific responses you wanted to see. And you would often have to teach the response you want because it doesn't come naturally. Just like we teach reading to kids, we have to teach social things to our kids, skills, feelings, responses, etc.

Also, I don't mean she doesn't have a memory for facts and details but the bigger problem is remembering a feeling or internal feeling we want to reinforce that goes along with that fact. So it would not be, "Look at this picture, you are wearing your big girl undies!" but rather, "Look at how happy you are. Look at how proud daddy is at how big you are." etc. So you can start connecting the event with the feelings we want her to notice, take on, internalize.

My two boys w/HFA also remember details very well but feelings are different. And also, they tend to remember things a specific way (don't we all) and it is sometimes nice to add another perspective as well. But that's another long post, lol.

Roxanna ô¿öAutism Happens