LP's, access and employment

October 29, 2004

I just joined the group a few weeks ago and even though i read

the rules i'm not sure exactly what topics are allowed?? Please

let me know if i'm out of line.

Somebody wrote a message the other day about having to drag a chair

into the bathrooms at restaurants etc to wash their hands. That got

me thinking about why doesn't LPA use their influence to do more

about access for lp's? I know I have read some things in LPA

magazine about ANSI work and other ADA topics, but searching the web

I can not find that dwarfism accommodations are specifically

mentioned anywhere I can find under the ADA.? Am I missing

something? Do we count in the ADA? Are we allowed to file access

complaints with the Department of Justice like others with

disabilities?

Are we too proud to be called disabled, even if we can't wash our

hands without water running down our elbows. LOL.

It's not just restaurants but hotels, airplanes, libraries,

hospitals, grocery stores etc that seem to have problems providing

me with equal access. For example why can't a grocery store offer

me a reach grabber everytime i walk in to shop? When will LPA

start a serious focus on access not just the half hearted (volenteer

based) efforts I've seen in the past. This is not to put down any

of LPA volunteer efforts in past years. This is directed at the

members of LPA not the leadership that i'm sure is doing their best

in many important areas. I realize some things have been

accomplished and the reach limit has ANSI been lowered but it just

seems that LPA could do so much more if they put strong leadership

in place that focuses only on access and job placements specific to

people with dwarfism. Some employers that I have interviewed with

don't even think I was classified as " disabled " when applying for a

job yet I'm sure I have suffered discrimination as a direct result

of my height. It seems to me that LPA should at least get dwarfism

listed under protected class of disability as we don't *seem* to be

listed anywhere I can find. I did find one case where the jury

concluded that a person with achondroplasia was considered disabled

and won millions for not getting the rehab access they requested.

Are there others within this group interested in doing something in

this regard to help LPA step up their efforts?

Maybe this is a job only for SUPERMAN!

October 29, 2004

These so called designers don't have one inch of a clue of what they're

doing. Whether it's a sink over a high counter in the public bathroom, soap

dispenser placed over the high counter usually on the wall or mirror, paper

towel

dispenser practically up on the ceiling, shelves in grocery stores keep get

higher and higher where one has to be an Amazon or the Jolly Green Giant. ;-)

I think these issues need to be addressed at regionals, conventions and when

Regionals, Conventions happen get the media involved and mention these things

that Short People have.

You ought to see how many so called accessible places there are around here.

They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

Helen

In a message dated 10/29/04 11:15:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

petite_isla@... writes:

> BUT, we don't want to talk about where the handsoap dispenser was

> placed on the wall!!

>

> Who writes the specs for these places?? And I'm seriously asking.

> Designers? Engineers? Architects? Is there a conference we can go to

> and address these issues? I'm willing to do the " Top Ten " reasons I

> hate public bathrooms ala Letterman at their dinner.

>

October 29, 2004

----Somebody wrote a message the other day about having to drag a

chair into the bathrooms at restaurants etc to wash their hands.----

This reminded me of today's episode in 'shortland'. I was visiting a

community college (technically irrelevant, I've found this to be true

at most places) for a meeting. The meeting was held in their brand new

" Technology building " , overall a beautiful facility that barely opened

a few days ago and is maybe 25% occupied. While waiting for a return

phone call from my staff I decided to visit the ladies' room. Opening

the door while sitting in a scooter was barely possible for me, first

the mechanism on the door to close it automatically is set too tight

and dang the handle was high. Few Achons/SEDs could have reached it,

probably no DDs (none that I could think of anyway). And this was

totally unnecessary, I'm sure if they dropped it down even 6 inches it

wouldn't kill those 'average' height folks' backs. Or the handle could

be three times as long. Then as I'm reaching for toilet paper (this

time I even used the 'accessible' stall) I start to wonder how anyone

with a shorter reach than mine would do it. I had to be careful not to

lean too far so as not to fall off the seat. The purse hook was

reachable for me, but could also have been lower for others.

It was nice that the water was one of those sensor driven types, but

the sink was dang high, I suspect to accomodate wheelchair access.

BUT, we don't want to talk about where the handsoap dispenser was

placed on the wall!!

Who writes the specs for these places?? And I'm seriously asking.

Designers? Engineers? Architects? Is there a conference we can go to

and address these issues? I'm willing to do the " Top Ten " reasons I

hate public bathrooms ala Letterman at their dinner.

There was just no need for these items to be placed as they were.

Sidetrack here, so only continue to read for amusement purposes: This

reminds me of the night I went to the ladies room on my way out of our

building at work. For some strange reason our facilities people chose

to come in that day and move the toilet paper dispensers. They (the

dispensers, not the facilities people) had been in a close logical

place for as long as the building had existed. I proceed to sit down

and look around to grab some 'tp' and realize I don't see it. Luckily

I have great peripherial vision and out of the corner of my eye as I'm

looking all over the right side of the stall I spot something white.

Some major IDIOT had placed the dispensor directly behind the seating

area. And I'm not 'male bashing' but I know this was a man!! Of

course, those of you who know me know I came home and wrote one of my

infamous long-a** e-mails to the Director of Facilities explaining the

step-by-step process for the use of the toilet as it applies to the

female of the species. The situation was completely rectified by noon

the next day.

---For example why can't a grocery store offer me a reach grabber

everytime i walk in to shop?

I think I'm safe in saying that they can advertise that it is

available, but there would be an issue if they automatically offered

it to you just because you're short. Lord, and I can hear the tongue

lashing from some dwarfs!

---When will LPA start a serious focus on access not just the half

hearted (volenteer based) efforts I've seen in the past.

Whereas I agree that the effort would be worthwhile, where is the

funding coming from to lobby for these changes? This brings us back to

the issue of LPA and money. LPA, money and staffing. LPA, money,

staffing and focus........

----it just seems that LPA could do so much more if they put strong

leadership in place that focuses only on access and job placements

specific to people with dwarfism.

So we have to have multiple LPA leadership tracks to satisfy the

diversity of needs and opinions? And also remember ALL of the LPA

board is made up of volunteers.

---It seems to me that LPA should at least get dwarfism listed under

protected class of disability as we don't *seem* to be listed anywhere

I can find.

LPA? Do you realize the lobbying effort this would take? And lord

only knows what else.

---I did find one case where the jury concluded that a person with

achondroplasia was considered disabled and won millions for not

getting the rehab access they requested.

Out of curiosity, can you post more info on this case?

---Are there others within this group interested in doing something in

this regard to help LPA step up their efforts?

Are you volunteering to spearhead this effort? Are you involved in

LPA at all?

And you do realize that this discussion group isn't an LPA information

network.

October 30, 2004

----I think these issues need to be addressed at regionals,

conventions and when Regionals, Conventions happen get the media

involved and mention these things that Short People have.

While this isn't a bad idea, more folks then need to get involved and

give the Districts a hand. Planning 2 of these events yearly at a

regional level is a tough job, no matter what the size of the

district.

More people have to lend a hand and become part of the process. Media

contact alone can take up hours. Pre-interviews to make sure the

reporter is up to speed on the history of the Organization and the

appropriate 'language'. They have to be greeted on the day of the

event, introduced around.......you get the picture.

So pick up that phone or your keyboard folks and send the organizers

a note saying " I'm here, how can I help? " . Suggestions are wonderful

and no doubt welcome, but volunteers are priceless. Only then will a

full agenda move forward representative of the wishes and needs of

the membership.

And my last 'soapbox' plea, when meetings are held, get up out of bed

and attend! I see so much griping about what isn't done, but I see

such a small part of the membership attending the formal open forum

meetings. Sadly enough at some gatherings I see more interested AP

parents than I see LP members of the Organization.

Helen, this isn't particularly meant for you, it's a statement in

general to those who are LPA " members " Membership is more than just

sending the Organization a check. Although money does help, it takes

bodies to move a mountain. LPA can buy the bulldozers, but they sit

idle waiting for a driver.

Again, good job Casey with the recent District 1 regional!! It was

worth my 650 mile drive.

October 30, 2004

Welp honestly... to let you in on a secret that has been.... HIDDEN. When

invited the several groups of representatives of the LP community including

LPA refused to go stating " We are not disabled. " So therefore Dwarfism and

short stature is not covered under the ADA. More to the point it is not

Specifically addressed and covered by the ADA as it should be and could have

been had the Organized groups for the LP's actually deemed to show up and

make their voiced heard when the ADA was being written.

Chass of Rundel of Ansteorra aka of the SCA aka

Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable Chariot

Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark (Have you seen my Belaying

Pin??)

Maison Du Corsaire Rouge

Muddeler of Mead, Ailment of Ale, Whiner of wine.

LP's, access and employment

>

> I just joined the group a few weeks ago and even though i read

> the rules i'm not sure exactly what topics are allowed?? Please

> let me know if i'm out of line.

>

> Somebody wrote a message the other day about having to drag a chair

> into the bathrooms at restaurants etc to wash their hands. That got

> me thinking about why doesn't LPA use their influence to do more

> about access for lp's? I know I have read some things in LPA

> magazine about ANSI work and other ADA topics, but searching the web

> I can not find that dwarfism accommodations are specifically

> mentioned anywhere I can find under the ADA.? Am I missing

> something? Do we count in the ADA? Are we allowed to file access

> complaints with the Department of Justice like others with

> disabilities?

>

> Are we too proud to be called disabled, even if we can't wash our

> hands without water running down our elbows. LOL.

>

> It's not just restaurants but hotels, airplanes, libraries,

> hospitals, grocery stores etc that seem to have problems providing

> me with equal access. For example why can't a grocery store offer

> me a reach grabber everytime i walk in to shop? When will LPA

> start a serious focus on access not just the half hearted (volenteer

> based) efforts I've seen in the past. This is not to put down any

> of LPA volunteer efforts in past years. This is directed at the

> members of LPA not the leadership that i'm sure is doing their best

> in many important areas. I realize some things have been

> accomplished and the reach limit has ANSI been lowered but it just

> seems that LPA could do so much more if they put strong leadership

> in place that focuses only on access and job placements specific to

> people with dwarfism. Some employers that I have interviewed with

> don't even think I was classified as " disabled " when applying for a

> job yet I'm sure I have suffered discrimination as a direct result

> of my height. It seems to me that LPA should at least get dwarfism

> listed under protected class of disability as we don't *seem* to be

> listed anywhere I can find. I did find one case where the jury

> concluded that a person with achondroplasia was considered disabled

> and won millions for not getting the rehab access they requested.

>

> Are there others within this group interested in doing something in

> this regard to help LPA step up their efforts?

>

> Maybe this is a job only for SUPERMAN!

>

> ===

>

October 30, 2004

I understand what you said and I know you were generalizing it.

I would like to go to a meeting. Problem is the meetings are an hour to

an hour and a half away either neither the Baltimore or DC area which is too

far for me. I don't have access to a vehicle now and tried to connect with

someone who used to be a member and they can't drive too far. I have tried to

get

to know some LP's around this area but they unfortunately for one reason or

another not interested in LPA.

Last year I had a meeting and one person from the chapter came. The rest

were friends of mine.

I did check into speaking at the schools and kept following up about it since

I was informed there was a young boy who has Dwarfism at one of the schools

here who was having some challenges with some of his classmates in regard to

that. When I finally connected with someone at the school the teacher thought

it was in the best interest of the student to not speak about it. The

principal though said I could visit the school.

Helen

Speaking of the situation with the bathrooms. I was in one of the

Department store's restrooms when I overheard this woman tell this child that

was with

her. " You're too short to wash your hands. " When I heard that I made a

comment out loud when the woman left and someone who was in there thought that

woman was so stupid. I thought that woman not only wasn't teaching that child

proper hygiene, but also teaching them that there is something wrong with being

short.

Helen

In a message dated 10/30/04 8:51:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

petite_isla@... writes:

> Helen, this isn't particularly meant for you, it's a statement in

> general to those who are LPA " members " Membership is more than just

> sending the Organization a check. Although money does help, it takes

> bodies to move a mountain. LPA can buy the bulldozers, but they sit

> idle waiting for a driver.

>

October 30, 2004

All;

Allow me to introduce myself for those that may not know me. I'm Tricia Mason

and I am your (if you are a LPA member) ANSI Delegate. Now you might wonder

what the heck that is, so let me explain. ANSI (American National Standards

Institute) has a committee (the A117.1 committee) that creates standards for

accessibility that can be adopted by states, cities and counties. It is

referenced by the International Building Code and this committee was a precursor

to the ADA's Architectural Guidelines (the ADAAG).

It is important to remember that ANSI and ADAAG are two different documents, but

have many similarities. The ADAAG is a federal guideline that is enforceable by

the Department of Justice when a complaint is received. The ADA is a civil

rights piece of legislation that has no real enforcement unless a complaint is

received or unless you sue someone under the ADA (see www.ada.gov for more

info).

The ADA does consider people of short stature as having a disability - so in

that regard you can sue an employer for discrimination, or a local government

for not providing access to its programs or services. Now as far as physical

accessibility to a built environment goes, the only premise one has to sue is

based on the ADAAG guidelines. It is sad but true that many of those guidelines

don't help people of short stature - but many do.

For instance in the new ADAAG that will be released shortly, the reach range for

operable parts was lowered from 54 " to 48 " . This happened because on the ANSI

committee Van Etten (my predecessor) was able to successfully argue the

benefits for not only little people but for people with other disabilities that

48 " would have. This was changed in ANSI in 1996...and ADAAG, in an effort to

harmonize with ANSI, updated their reach range to 48 " .

We are working hard to make access changes that benefit people of short

stature...I think honestly people don't quite understand the process of making

changes to these documents. It, like anything else, is a bureaucratic maze. It

takes three years to go through a cycle on ANSI (and I believe for ADAAG as

well). During that time we may have to look at, investigate and argue over 400

proposals to make changes to the ANSI document. When I go to D.C., I'm in

meetings that go from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. for five days straight. I alone, did

four or five rounds of these kinds of meetings from December of 2001 to May of

2003. You are being represented.

During this last cycle we successfully got several key proposals passed. One on

elevator controls another on bathroom lavatory controls and one which erased an

exception for fuel dispensers (gas pumps) requiring them to know be compliant

with the 48 " reach range. I'm already seeing some of these changes here in

Wyoming (of all places!) If you want more information on these changes I

suggest you look back at an article I wrote for LPA Today...probably three

issues ago.

It is important and crucial that we combine efforts with other disability groups

to show the advantages of increasing access. We have to face the fact that

changes aren't going to be made 'just for us'...we have to be realistic in how

we view change. If we form alliances with others, then that means that more

people will benefit, which will increase our chances of making positive changes.

We have to be mindful of the fact that something we may need changed might

decrease access for someone with another type of disability. So, in that

instance we have to work with individuals who have varying kinds of disabilities

to make compromises so that the maximum amount of people are helped. It's a

very political game to play.

It's also important to remember that the ADA's guidelines are just

that...guidelines. And just because something is compliant with the ADA doesn't

make it accessible for everyone. It's unfortunate, but it is a battle that we

all will have to fight until designers, architects and builders understand that.

It's an attitudinal barrier that we and people with other types of disabilities

have to face. It is nearly impossible to mandate a set of accessibility

standards that will satisfy everyone and their varying types of

disabilities...it is indeed complex.

and I are going to begin looking at changes we will propose during the

upcoming cycle. If you have ideas or suggestions, I'm more than willing to hear

you out. Please e-mail me with things you'd like to see...I can't guarantee

that I can run with it, but we maybe able to work your ideas into making actual

changes.

Tricia Mason

A117.1 Delegate

Little People of America

triciamason@...

October 30, 2004

Chass;

I'd like to know how you know this 'hidden' tid bit of information, when

Barty himself (along with many other LPs...Lee Kitchens, etc.) were extremely

involved in the writing of the ADA. Ruth Ricker has been a involved in ADA and

education issues. is the past commissioner of the EEOC. Van

Etten has worked on access concerns since 1994. My point is that many prominent

LPs have been involved.

In regards to your claim that the ADA doesn't address us, well the ADA doesn't

specifically state that people with specific kinds of disabilities qualify as

having a disability. It's definition of disability is: " The term " disability "

means, with respect to an individual- (A) a physical or mental impairment that

substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of such

individual; ( a record of such an impairment; or © being regarded as having

such an impairment. " I think it's arguably clear that that people of short

stature would be considered as having a disability. Some of us may not view

ourselves as having a disability...that's one thing, but under the law we are

protected.

While I agree that LPA does not take as strong a stance as I'd like it to on

many disability issues (that's a whole other topic!), I don't think it's fair to

say that we've never been involved since I know for a fact that we have.

-Tricia

> Welp honestly... to let you in on a secret that has been.... HIDDEN. When

> invited the several groups of representatives of the LP community including

> LPA refused to go stating " We are not disabled. " So therefore Dwarfism and

> short stature is not covered under the ADA. More to the point it is not

> Specifically addressed and covered by the ADA as it should be and could have

> been had the Organized groups for the LP's actually deemed to show up and

> make their voiced heard when the ADA was being written.

>

> Chass of Rundel of Ansteorra aka of the SCA aka

> Charinthalis Del Sans of the portable Chariot

> Honorable Recruiter of the House of the Red Shark (Have you seen my Belaying

> Pin??)

> Maison Du Corsaire Rouge

> Muddeler of Mead, Ailment of Ale, Whiner of wine.

October 31, 2004

Hello All In responce to this, I would like a rebuttle....I am glad the fact

Tricia is the ANSI Delegate, but what does it matter if we're memebers of

LPA or just Active? I don't understand, is that like ya'll won't help

someone who can't afford dues to become a member?? Just rubbed me wrong this

morning, and I FORGOT about the STINKIN' time change!

Re: LP's, access and employment

>

> All;

>

> Allow me to introduce myself for those that may not know me. I'm Tricia

Mason and I am your (if you are a LPA member) ANSI Delegate. Now you might

wonder what the heck that is, so let me explain. ANSI (American National

Standards Institute) has a committee (the A117.1 committee) that creates

standards for accessibility that can be adopted by states, cities and

counties. It is referenced by the International Building Code and this

committee was a precursor to the ADA's Architectural Guidelines (the ADAAG).

>

> It is important to remember that ANSI and ADAAG are two different

documents, but have many similarities. The ADAAG is a federal guideline

that is enforceable by the Department of Justice when a complaint is

received. The ADA is a civil rights piece of legislation that has no real

enforcement unless a complaint is received or unless you sue someone under

the ADA (see www.ada.gov for more info).

>

> The ADA does consider people of short stature as having a disability - so

in that regard you can sue an employer for discrimination, or a local

government for not providing access to its programs or services. Now as far

as physical accessibility to a built environment goes, the only premise one

has to sue is based on the ADAAG guidelines. It is sad but true that many

of those guidelines don't help people of short stature - but many do.

>

> For instance in the new ADAAG that will be released shortly, the reach

range for operable parts was lowered from 54 " to 48 " . This happened because

on the ANSI committee Van Etten (my predecessor) was able to

successfully argue the benefits for not only little people but for people

with other disabilities that 48 " would have. This was changed in ANSI in

1996...and ADAAG, in an effort to harmonize with ANSI, updated their reach

range to 48 " .

>

> We are working hard to make access changes that benefit people of short

stature...I think honestly people don't quite understand the process of

making changes to these documents. It, like anything else, is a

bureaucratic maze. It takes three years to go through a cycle on ANSI (and

I believe for ADAAG as well). During that time we may have to look at,

investigate and argue over 400 proposals to make changes to the ANSI

document. When I go to D.C., I'm in meetings that go from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.

for five days straight. I alone, did four or five rounds of these kinds of

meetings from December of 2001 to May of 2003. You are being represented.

>

> During this last cycle we successfully got several key proposals passed.

One on elevator controls another on bathroom lavatory controls and one which

erased an exception for fuel dispensers (gas pumps) requiring them to know

be compliant with the 48 " reach range. I'm already seeing some of these

changes here in Wyoming (of all places!) If you want more information on

these changes I suggest you look back at an article I wrote for LPA

Today...probably three issues ago.

>

> It is important and crucial that we combine efforts with other disability

groups to show the advantages of increasing access. We have to face the

fact that changes aren't going to be made 'just for us'...we have to be

realistic in how we view change. If we form alliances with others, then

that means that more people will benefit, which will increase our chances of

making positive changes. We have to be mindful of the fact that something

we may need changed might decrease access for someone with another type of

disability. So, in that instance we have to work with individuals who have

varying kinds of disabilities to make compromises so that the maximum amount

of people are helped. It's a very political game to play.

>

> It's also important to remember that the ADA's guidelines are just

that...guidelines. And just because something is compliant with the ADA

doesn't make it accessible for everyone. It's unfortunate, but it is a

battle that we all will have to fight until designers, architects and

builders understand that. It's an attitudinal barrier that we and people

with other types of disabilities have to face. It is nearly impossible to

mandate a set of accessibility standards that will satisfy everyone and

their varying types of disabilities...it is indeed complex.

>

> and I are going to begin looking at changes we will propose during

the upcoming cycle. If you have ideas or suggestions, I'm more than willing

to hear you out. Please e-mail me with things you'd like to see...I can't

guarantee that I can run with it, but we maybe able to work your ideas into

making actual changes.

>

> Tricia Mason

> A117.1 Delegate

> Little People of America

> triciamason@...

>

> ===

>

October 31, 2004

--- Thanks to both of you for your efforts on behalf of people with

dwarfism and LPA.

And thanks for the information posted.

October 31, 2004

Well, perhaps I stated it wrong...what I meant was that LPA, as an organization,

has representation on the ANSI committee. I'm not a member of the committee as

an individual. Of course the work we do benefits all people of short stature -

not just LPA members. I didn't mean to offend =)

-Tricia

Re: Re: LP's, access and employment