Guest guest Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 I wholeheartedly agree with Aussie . Lindy Lou I was very angry when I read your comments that the doctors don't want to talk to you when they find you are hearing impaired. They should be reported to their professional association. Aussie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Hi Lindy Lou and Aussie , Well thanks for saying that sometimes I think I should find a Hard of Hearing dr but I don't sign Maybe I should learn that first :-) Well I wish every one in this group that has Thanks giving to have a Happy Thank Giving :-) Susielindy <everyothername.istaken@...> wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with Aussie . Lindy Lou I was very angry when I read your comments that the doctors don't want to talk to you when they find you are hearing impaired. They should be reported to their professional association. Aussie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Chapman <ltcol@...> wrote: Hey Susie Let me throw in a few comments. Like you, I am severly hearing impaired and the written word is a haven for me. Aussie Margaret was so correct in saying how "equal" I feel in a forum like TJR. I have not been to a picture theatre for more than 40 years and never watch television, but I still feel that I have an enriched life. I endorse all Margaret's suggestions but would also add another. There are portable induction loop devices which your doctor can wear around his neck and which you operate by moving the "T" switch on your aids. I have no idea of the price, unfortunately. Even if you don't think that you lip-read you probably do it unconsciously. The ENT doc proved to me that I lip read extensively. Does your doctor have a beard? I have real problems hearing somebody with a beard because I cannot see the lips moving. I was very angry when I read your comments that the doctors don't want to talk to you when they find you are hearing impaired. They should be reported to their professional association. Occasionally people become frustrated when i ask them to repeat something a number of times, but mostly I encounter tolerance. I do have a fear of people thinking me rude if I don't answer them because i don't hear them. When I was in the Army I tried to always take a partner to noisy functions. One lady I often went with used to say to people, "He's not bl**dy ignorant, he just didn't hear you!" I hope you're having a great day Susie. Aussie >Hi Susie,>>I just had an idea. In Australia you could ask for an interpreter. Do you>sign? If you do, I would ask that they organise an interpreter for you.>>It is very difficult if the doctor cannot talk easily with you, and in Aust>there are services available to help.>>I don't know about services in your country, but there might be something>you can tap into. Maybe there is a deaf society, or something like that.>>Or maybe you lipread. If you lipread tell the doctor that you are hearing>impaired, but can lipread if he faces you when talking to you.>>You must love the way the internet allows you to be able to communicate on>an equal footing.>>Aussie Margaret>RTHR 1990 revised 2004>> RE: RTHR coming Dec. 8, ? about clothes>>>| Hi ,>| I think Dr's when they find out I'm Hard of Hearing they act liked they>don't want to talked to you and its hard to get someone to go with me>everyone works and has their own life :-)>| So I just live the best I can , I did start taking walks with my >on Wheels that's the best thing my Son brought me . I went to a second Dr>and he told me he didn't do the operation so he couldn't tell what was wrong>with me and I should go back to the Dr that did the operations on me He did>tell me I have 'bursit on the new hip. Well you take care and have a nice>day:-)>| Susie>|>|>>Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 thank you Susie. i would love to learn to sign. hugs, lindy HAPPY THANKSGIVING! TRHRSurgery: Hopefully mid to late January 2007everyothername.istaken@... Hi Lindy Lou and Aussie , Well thanks for saying that sometimes I think I should find a Hard of Hearing dr but I don't sign Maybe I should learn that first :-) Well I wish every one in this group that has Thanks giving to have a Happy Thank Giving :-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Susie, Maybe you could search the web for your area for a Dr. who treats the hearing impaired (not only for your hearing of course, but someone who knows how to communicate with you, take his time with you, etc.) or have someone call the hospital/clinic system you now go to and ask if there is a doctor in the group, or if they know of one in your area, who you could switch to. It is important that you have a doctor who will take his time with you and who you can communicate with freely. I've searched the internet but I'm not sure exactly what to seach for. Is there a hearing impaired association -- they would also know of doctors. Good luck! It's so important to be able to communicate with a doctor. I've had doctors I just cannot understand at all, because of their thick accents, and it's so annoying for me to not know what they're saying. I can only imagine what it must be like for you. ((((((HUGS)))))) Lindy Lou Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Lindy I would love to be fluent in sign language. I took it for a year but had no one to practice with so forgot a lot. I KEEP TELLING MY FAMILY THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE FOR A PRESENT BUT SO FAR IT IS FALLING ON DEAF EARS. sorry for the caps. I didn't mean it but don't have time to go back and correct it. Happy Thanksgiving to all. On Nov 23, 2006, at 9:25 AM, lindy wrote: > thank you Susie. i would love to learn to sign. > hugs, > lindy > HAPPY THANKSGIVING! > TRHR > Surgery: Hopefully mid to late January 2007 > everyothername.istaken@... >> >> Hi Lindy Lou and Aussie , >> Well thanks for saying that sometimes I think I should find a Hard of >> Hearing dr but I don't sign Maybe I should learn that first :-) Well >> I wish every one in this group that has Thanks giving to have a Happy >> Thank Giving :-) >>                                         \  Susie The Will of God will never take you to where the Grace of God will not protect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Hi Lindy, I was learning with my Grandson but I didn't see him enough to really learn it :-( No one in my Family wanted to learn it because everyone hears ok I feel like I'm the only one in my Family thats hard of hearing .Well you take care and have a nice day:-) SusieElaine Poage <meuw@...> wrote: Lindy I would love to be fluent in sign language. I took it for a year but had no one to practice with so forgot a lot. I KEEP TELLING MY FAMILY THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE FOR A PRESENT BUT SO FAR IT IS FALLING ON DEAF EARS.sorry for the caps. I didn't mean it but don't have time to go back and correct it. Happy Thanksgiving to all.On Nov 23, 2006, at 9:25 AM, lindy wrote:> thank you Susie. i would love to learn to sign. > hugs,> lindy> HAPPY THANKSGIVING!> TRHR> Surgery: Hopefully mid to late January 2007> everyothername.istaken@...>>>> Hi Lindy Lou and Aussie ,>> Well thanks for saying that sometimes I think I should find a Hard of >> Hearing dr but I don't sign Maybe I should learn that first :-) Well >> I wish every one in this group that has Thanks giving to have a Happy >> Thank Giving :-)>> SusieThe Will of God will never take you to where the Graceof God will not protect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Susie, My nephew, who is 40, is deaf. At one time, it was thought the hearing impaired should be mainstreamed into and function in every part of society without any special resources. But another school of thought contends that the needs of the hearing-impaired are not met and they are not treated equally in general society. And that's where "deaf culture" comes in. Now "deaf culture" brings the hearing impared together to create their own circles to do all the things anyone does in everyday life -- socialize, learn, date, participate in creative pursuits, etc. Some even choose to live in one community to support each other and grow the specialized resouces there that they need. Perhaps if you could locate those who participate in the deaf culture in your region, you could find the right doctors for you. They must be out of there. Surely they cannot all be so insensitive as the ones you've dealt with previously. Or at least let's hope not. Hearing impairment is thought to be the most most frustrating handicaps because those who suffer from it are left out of the communication going on around them, even in their own families. This has happened to my nephew all his life. His frustration at trying to keep up with what is going on around him is heartbreaking. Here's some background on deaf culture. http://deafness.about.com/cs/deafculture/a/deafculture101.htm If you do a computer search using the words deaf culture along with your city, state, region, etc., perhaps you will find some resouces and even a supportive online community just like this one. Warmest regards, DonnaSuzanne Snyder <juneflower63@...> wrote: Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Chapman <ltcolhotmail> wrote: Hey Susie Let me throw in a few comments. Like you, I am severly hearing impaired and the written word is a haven for me. Aussie Margaret was so correct in saying how "equal" I feel in a forum like TJR. I have not been to a picture theatre for more than 40 years and never watch television, but I still feel that I have an enriched life. I endorse all Margaret's suggestions but would also add another. There are portable induction loop devices which your doctor can wear around his neck and which you operate by moving the "T" switch on your aids. I have no idea of the price, unfortunately. Even if you don't think that you lip-read you probably do it unconsciously. The ENT doc proved to me that I lip read extensively. Does your doctor have a beard? I have real problems hearing somebody with a beard because I cannot see the lips moving. I was very angry when I read your comments that the doctors don't want to talk to you when they find you are hearing impaired. They should be reported to their professional association. Occasionally people become frustrated when i ask them to repeat something a number of times, but mostly I encounter tolerance. I do have a fear of people thinking me rude if I don't answer them because i don't hear them. When I was in the Army I tried to always take a partner to noisy functions. One lady I often went with used to say to people, "He's not bl**dy ignorant, he just didn't hear you!" I hope you're having a great day Susie. Aussie >Hi Susie,>>I just had an idea. In Australia you could ask for an interpreter. Do you>sign? If you do, I would ask that they organise an interpreter for you.>>It is very difficult if the doctor cannot talk easily with you, and in Aust>there are services available to help.>>I don't know about services in your country, but there might be something>you can tap into. Maybe there is a deaf society, or something like that.>>Or maybe you lipread. If you lipread tell the doctor that you are hearing>impaired, but can lipread if he faces you when talking to you.>>You must love the way the internet allows you to be able to communicate on>an equal footing.>>Aussie Margaret>RTHR 1990 revised 2004>> RE: RTHR coming Dec. 8, ? about clothes>>>| Hi ,>| I think Dr's when they find out I'm Hard of Hearing they act liked they>don't want to talked to you and its hard to get someone to go with me>everyone works and has their own life :-)>| So I just live the best I can , I did start taking walks with my >on Wheels that's the best thing my Son brought me . I went to a second Dr>and he told me he didn't do the operation so he couldn't tell what was wrong>with me and I should go back to the Dr that did the operations on me He did>tell me I have 'bursit on the new hip. Well you take care and have a nice>day:-)>| Susie>|>|>>Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 Hi Susie, If you find you can't understand your doctor cuz he has a beard/dont speak clearly etc Im sure you can request a lip speaker to go with you to your appointments like we can in the UK. Might be worth enquiring about at your doctors. Here in the UK doctors have to provide access to a portable loop but be careful with those as anyone outside in the waiting room who has their hearing aid set to T switch could be listening in too :/ Mazza > > Susie, > Maybe you could search the web for your area for a Dr. who treats the hearing impaired (not only for your hearing of course, but someone who knows how to communicate with you, take his time with you, etc.) or have someone call the hospital/clinic system you now go to and ask if there is a doctor in the group, or if they know of one in your area, who you could switch to. It is important that you have a doctor who will take his time with you and who you can communicate with freely. I've searched the internet but I'm not sure exactly what to seach for. Is there a hearing impaired association -- they would also know of doctors. Good luck! It's so important to be able to communicate with a doctor. I've had doctors I just cannot understand at all, because of their thick accents, and it's so annoying for me to not know what they're saying. I can only imagine what it must be like for you. ((((((HUGS)))))) > Lindy Lou > > > Hi , > I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) > Susie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 susie, it's sad that no one saw the importance that you all should learn to sign so you all could communicate with one another. i'm sorry. hugs, lindy Hi Lindy, I was learning with my Grandson but I didn't see him enough to really learn it :-( No one in my Family wanted to learn it because everyone hears ok I feel like I'm the only one in my Family thats hard of hearing .Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 Hi Lindy, Thanks I will looked for a Hearing dr . I did go to these people called Dors they help me get hearing aids when I was working and they paid for this one dr he was a sports dr he check my knee and said that my knee wasn't that bad I wanted him to give me x-rays but the Dors people wouldn't pay for it and my Son affter to pay for it in payments but they wouldn't do it I never went to any other dr until I got on SSI then I had insurance thats when I went to the dr that did the operations on me I should have gone to another dr . Well I will looked into finding a hard of hearing dr . I live in Gurnee IL. Well you take care and have a nice day :-) Susielindy <everyothername.istaken@...> wrote: Susie, Maybe you could search the web for your area for a Dr. who treats the hearing impaired (not only for your hearing of course, but someone who knows how to communicate with you, take his time with you, etc.) or have someone call the hospital/clinic system you now go to and ask if there is a doctor in the group, or if they know of one in your area, who you could switch to. It is important that you have a doctor who will take his time with you and who you can communicate with freely. I've searched the internet but I'm not sure exactly what to seach for. Is there a hearing impaired association -- they would also know of doctors. Good luck! It's so important to be able to communicate with a doctor. I've had doctors I just cannot understand at all, because of their thick accents, and it's so annoying for me to not know what they're saying. I can only imagine what it must be like for you. ((((((HUGS)))))) Lindy Lou Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 Hi Susie, I live about an hour from Gurnee (Great outlet hunting grounds) in Illinois. My Doctor is in Glenview, which is not too far from you. I’ve only seen him once and my husband was there. He took time to answer my questions and is considered “one of the best”. His name is Dr Haddad, (847) 998-5680. I don’t know how he does with hearing impaired people. You might want to call and see what they say and how they handle you over the phone. That might give you some indication about their customer/patient attitude. Good Luck. Dahhling Re: RTHR coming Dec. 8, ? about clothes Hi Lindy, Thanks I will looked for a Hearing dr . I did go to these people called Dors they help me get hearing aids when I was working and they paid for this one dr he was a sports dr he check my knee and said that my knee wasn't that bad I wanted him to give me x-rays but the Dors people wouldn't pay for it and my Son affter to pay for it in payments but they wouldn't do it I never went to any other dr until I got on SSI then I had insurance thats when I went to the dr that did the operations on me I should have gone to another dr . Well I will looked into finding a hard of hearing dr . I live in Gurnee IL. Well you take care and have a nice day :-) ; ! Susie lindy <everyothername.istakencenturytel (DOT) net> wrote: Susie, Maybe you could search the web for your area for a Dr. who treats the hearing impaired (not only for your hearing of course, but someone who knows how to communicate with you, take his time with you, etc.) or have someone call the hospital/clinic system you now go to and ask if there is a doctor in the group, or if they know of one in your area, who you could switch to. It is important that you have a doctor who will take his time with you and who you can communicate with freely. I've searched the internet but I'm not sure exactly what to seach for. Is there a hearing impaired association -- they would also know of doctors. Good luck! It's so important to be able to communicate with a doctor. I've had doctors I just cannot understand at all, because of their thick accents, and it's so annoying for me to not know what they're saying. I can only imagine what it must be like for you. ((((((HUGS)))))) Lindy Lou Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Hi Dahhling, Thanks for the Dr phone number .When I lived in Streamwood IL I went to this Dr I can't remember his name I went to Glenview IL because I had to have a hearia operation the Dr found one behind each other I had two more hearia operations after that . I will asked this Dr that you told me about if he takes care of people that other Dr's did a operation on allready because this one Dr I went to he told me that since he didn't do the operation he couldn't tell me what was wrong and I should go to my Dr that did the operations on .Well you take care and have a nice day. SusieMatt Glendale <utronix@...> wrote: Hi Susie, I live about an hour from Gurnee (Great outlet hunting grounds) in Illinois. My Doctor is in Glenview, which is not too far from you. I’ve only seen him once and my husband was there. He took time to answer my questions and is considered “one of the best”. His name is Dr Haddad, (847) 998-5680. I don’t know how he does with hearing impaired people. You might want to call and see what they say and how they handle you over the phone. That might give you some indication about their customer/patient attitude. Good Luck. Dahhling -----Original Message-----From: sentto-7780446-20267-1164532420-utronix=compuserve.comreturns (DOT) [mailto:sentto-7780446-20267-1164532420-utronix=compuserve.comreturns (DOT) ] On Behalf Of Suzanne SnyderSent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:13 AMJoint Replacement Subject: Re: RTHR coming Dec. 8, ? about clothes Hi Lindy, Thanks I will looked for a Hearing dr . I did go to these people called Dors they help me get hearing aids when I was working and they paid for this one dr he was a sports dr he check my knee and said that my knee wasn't that bad I wanted him to give me x-rays but the Dors people wouldn't pay for it and my Son affter to pay for it in payments but they wouldn't do it I never went to any other dr until I got on SSI then I had insurance thats when I went to the dr that did the operations on me I should have gone to another dr . Well I will looked into finding a hard of hearing dr . I live in Gurnee IL. Well you take care and have a nice day :-) ; ! Susielindy <everyothername.istakencenturytel (DOT) net> wrote: Susie, Maybe you could search the web for your area for a Dr. who treats the hearing impaired (not only for your hearing of course, but someone who knows how to communicate with you, take his time with you, etc.) or have someone call the hospital/clinic system you now go to and ask if there is a doctor in the group, or if they know of one in your area, who you could switch to. It is important that you have a doctor who will take his time with you and who you can communicate with freely. I've searched the internet but I'm not sure exactly what to seach for. Is there a hearing impaired association -- they would also know of doctors. Good luck! It's so important to be able to communicate with a doctor. I've had doctors I just cannot understand at all, because of their thick accents, and it's so annoying for me to not know what they're saying. I can only imagine what it must be like for you. ((((((HUGS)))))) Lindy Lou Hi , I just wanted to thanked you but you would not believe how fast these Dr's talk and its liked they stick you in a room forever and then they check you and your out of their , I think the next Dr I go to I have to find a Dr that just takes care of Hard of Hearing People do you think there is such a thing? I used to go to a show but I find it too loud and still don't understand but I watch TV with the close caption I think that is the greatest thing that they came out with :-) It takes awhile to get use to watching the picture and reading the caption but you get used to it :-) Well you take care and have a nice day:-) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Knees versus hips - AFTER my bilateral TKRs, my ortho and PTs all told me that knees are the most painful surgery and the most painful recovery... I don't have any hip surgery to compare it too, but I am quite willing to believe them about knees! Judy > > Hi Barbara, > > I haven't had a knee done, but the general " folk lore " is that knees are > harder than hips, so you should be ok. > > I didn't have any problem wearing my normal clothes after my THR. Infact > the covering was more like a big band-aide (Like what you would put on a cut > finger). The covering only stayed on for a couple of weeks and was more to > stop the staples catching on my clothes than anything else. Once all the > staples were out we didn't cover it any more. > > Good luck with it. > > Aussie Margaret > RTHR 1990 revised 2004 > > RTHR coming Dec. 8, ? about clothes > > > | I've been having worse & worse pain in my whole leg, which started about 6 > months after a RTKR that was doing great. My OS tells me that this is > referred pain from my hip, which is bone-on-bone. So I just got my date for > hip surgery (cemented), Friday Dec. 8. I'm fed up with the pain & > disability, but have tried to stay mobile & have done water exercise about > twice/week. > | > | Since I just had my right knee replaced a year ago, I've been assuming > that my recovery will be similar from the hip operation. What do you think? > | > | I'd like to know what kind of clothes I'll be able to get on; that is, > will I have a big thick bandage or a wrap or what? Were you able to wear > stretchy slacks? > | > | Barbara Ward > | Macomb County, Michigan > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 my surgeon told me this exact thing today -- that knees are harder to recover from. hugs,linDUHlouTRHR 1/22/2007 Knees versus hips - AFTER my bilateral TKRs, my ortho and PTs all toldme that knees are the most painful surgery and the most painfulrecovery... I don't have any hip surgery to compare it too, but I amquite willing to believe them about knees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Me too. And that two knees are harder than one. I'm a believer! :-)lindy <everyothername.istaken@...> wrote: my surgeon told me this exact thing today -- that knees are harder to recover from. hugs,linDUHlouTRHR 1/22/2007 Knees versus hips - AFTER my bilateral TKRs, my ortho and PTs all toldme that knees are the most painful surgery and the most painfulrecovery... I don't have any hip surgery to compare it too, but I amquite willing to believe them about knees! Cheap Talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 oh yes, i totally believe this! hugs,linDUHlouTRHR 1/22/2007 Me too. And that two knees are harder than one. I'm a believer! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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