RE: Question.trans fatty acids

[Guest guest]

> question.trans fatty acids

>

>

>OK...

>I'm reading the book

>THE HEALING MIRACLES OF COCONUT OIL

>BY BRUCE FIFE, N.D.

>

>In this book, he lists references to go to. One mentioned is the

>Weston Price (www.westonaprice.org)

>

>I went to the site and found this article that says Trans Fatty

>Acids are NOT formed by heating vegetable oils.

>Need less to say I am now confused, as the Dr Fife states they

>are..... The article from the Weston Price website is below. Can

>anyone help clarify for me??? thanks

If Fife wrote that, then he is wrong. It requires a *catalyst* for

hydrogenation (I think nickel is a common one) as well as the other factors

mentions.

FWIW, she's a biochemist who specializes in fats/oils. If you want a good

primer on lipids (fats/oils) get her book " Know Your Fats " .

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

A catalyst is not required to form trans fatty acids, it only speeds up the

process. Studies have shown that NON-hydrogenated liquid vegetable oils contain

on average 15% trans fatty acids. In comparison, margarine and shortening

average about 35%. The trans fatty acids come from high temperatures used in

processing. So yes, high temperatures can produce trans fatty acids. In the book

Heart Frauds by McGee, M.D. he explains what happens when vegetable oils

are heated. He says:

" My first introduction to fatty acids came during a medical meeting in 1976. Dr.

Alsoph Corwin, professor emeritus of chemistry at s Hopkins University,

presented what he called a cooking demonstration. This was highly unusual for a

medical meeting. There he stood wearing his apron, looking like a chef on a

television cooking program.

" Dr. Corwin held up a glass beaker full of vegetable oil which had been

collected by the age old technique of crushing vegetable seeds in a press. With

the room lights off he exposed the oil to an ultraviolet light in front of a

white screen. The screen stayed white.

" He then held the beaker of oil over the flame of a Bunsen burner, brought it to

a boil, and again exposed it to the UV light. A light pink color was projected

on the screen. It was obvious something is the oil had changed. Dr. Corwin

explained that molecules of fatty acids in the oil had been polymerized by the

heat. Polymerization involves changes in chemical bonds.

" Unprocessed vegetables oils contain several double bonds between their carbon

atoms, all referred to as being in the cis configuration. Only cis bonds are

found in fresh foods. Fatty acids molecules are bent a precise number of degrees

at each cis bond.

" High heat treatment can cause these double bonds to break. Some hook back up

the same way. Some flip over 180 degrees and reconnect, forming what are called

trans bonds (trans fatty acids). At a trans bond the molecule straightens into a

new shape. All of the common brands of vegetable oil and salad dressing contain

trans fatty acids. "

According to Dr. McGee and Dr. Corwin all heat treated polyunsaturated vegetable

oils contain trans fatty acids. All that is necessary for trans fatty acids to

form is the addition of heat. A catalyst isn't necessary.

Bruce

question.trans fatty acids

> OK...

> I'm reading the book

> THE HEALING MIRACLES OF COCONUT OIL

> BY BRUCE FIFE, N.D.

>

> In this book, he lists references to go to. One mentioned is the Weston Price

(www.westonaprice.org)

>

> I went to the site and found this article that says Trans Fatty Acids are NOT

formed by heating vegetable oils.

> Need less to say I am now confused, as the Dr Fife states they are..... The

article from the Weston Price website is below. Can anyone help clarify for

me??? thanks

>

> By G. Enig, PhD

>

> One of the frequent questions I receive in my email concerns the

formation of trans fatty acids in the typical cooking process. I was quite

surprised the first time I received this question, for several reasons. I knew

that there were several things that were necessary for the formation of the

trans fatty acids. One was a tank of hydrogen; second was a closed container,

which allowed an adequate vacuum to form; third, an appropriate catalyst was

needed; and last, the heat that would allow the chemical changes to occur had to

be sufficiently high in conjunction with the other components.

>

> During my many years of analyzing foods for the presence of trans fatty

acids, I had found numerous examples of used frying oil that had started out

without being partially hydrogenated and did not have any trans fatty acids, and

there was still never any trace of trans fatty acids in the used oil unless the

oil had been used for frying foods that had been prefried in a partially

hydrogenated oil.

>

> I am not sure who started the rumor that frying or even just cooking or

heating polyunsaturated oils would produce trans fatty acids in those oils; but

it is just that, an untrue rumor. It was likely started by one of the many

internet writers hired to fill space or by someone who thought he or she knew

the reason that there was trans fat in a particular product.

>

> The idea that cooking with heat damages the oils that are highly

polyunsaturated is true and the warning against cooking or frying using fragile

oils such as flaxseed oil is valid, but not because trans fats are formed. What

is formed under harsh circumstances such as high-temperature cooking and frying

is a polymerized oil, and this is because the heat has helped to form free

radicals and then various breakdown products. (Flaxseed oil that is still in the

ground seed can be heated in baking and it does not become damaged.)

>

> A number of years ago, a dietitian/nutritionist told me about her

experience trying to make trans fatty acids in an open pan on top of the stove.

She wanted to make a video of the process to use for teaching purposes. She was

unsuccessful with this venture, and she had contacted me to ask me why her

project had failed. She had not actually known how the trans were formed to

begin with and assumed from what she had been told that the raising of the

temperature would cause the trans to form. The project had been undertaken in

one of the laboratories in a local university, and the analysis was to be done

by someone in the same laboratory who knew how to use the instrument for

analyzing the oil.

>

> Certain types of trans fatty acids could probably be formed from a

highly polyunsaturated oil during deep fat frying in one of the new pressure

cooker fryers, but these types of trans fats would be like those formed in high

pressure deodorization. They would not be the broad range of trans fats with

delta-6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. So far, none of the groups doing analysis have

reported this. Very small amounts of trans fatty acids have been found in corn

chip products formed by extrusion cooking. This is due to the high pressure and

the presence of a type of alkaline catalyst; but those trans that are formed are

reported only in trace amounts from omega-6 or omega-3 oils.

>

> Those fats and oils that are appropriate for cooking or sautéing and

will withstand fairly high temperatures are those that have been in use for

thousands of years, including olive oil as well as the more stable saturated

coconut and palm oils and the animal tallows. An oil such as sesame oil with its

special heat-activated antioxidants can be blended with coconut oil and olive

oil to form a very stable good cooking oil.

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/04 12:12:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

bruce@... writes:

All that is necessary for trans fatty acids to form is the addition of heat.

A catalyst isn't necessary.

Hi Bruce,

Do you have any evidence for this? The only study you mentioned was one

using UV light, which is obviously not equivalent to heat, I'd think you'd

agree,

and did not even involve any testing for trans fatty acids. Enig has

personally tested many oils before and after heating and has NEVER been able to

find any trans fatty acids formed by heat whatsoever. She finds that unheated

canola oil contains trans fatty acids, and she believes this is attributable

to the deodorization process. Heating the canola oil after processing does not

increase its trans fatty acid content.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/04 8:13:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

If Fife wrote that, then he is wrong. It requires a *catalyst* for

hydrogenation (I think nickel is a common one) as well as the other factors

mentions.

I think this is correct. One note though: the purpose of hydrogenation is

not to form trans fatty acids. It is to form saturated fatty acids. Or, it is

to turn triple bonds into double bonds. The results of hydrogenation vary

according to the catalyst. For some reason I don't understand, the catalyst

used

in the food industry results in trans fatty acids as a byproduct.

Hydrogenation undoubtedly, without question, requires a catalyst. But it

also requires high pressure and a source of hydrogen gas. It's possible that in

a pan, metal from the pan could act as a catalyst (though very, very

inefficiently, and probably negligibly), but no one cooks under industrial

levels of

pressure, nor with a tube of hydrogen gas in thier pot.

Chris

[Guest guest]

HI ,

Thank you for the link. I had never ready it before. I have had

the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Enig, with several biochemists who

work with fats, and even with technical people at a fats and oils company in

the Philippines who make hydrogenated and non hydrogenated oils. This

particular company, (when the NIH published their study on trans fats and

the FDA passed laws about labeling trans fat content in foods) redesigned

all the formulas their customers have for everything from donut dough,

fillings and frostings, to margarine. The law will actually be in effect

within a few years, and they put their research dollars to work right away.

Everything in the Philippines is now trans fat free. Yet it has been quite

a while and it does not appear that any companies in the US have done

anything. Margarine still contains trans fats in the US, all grocery store

crackers and cookies, everything! I have have also talked extensively with

my father-in-law who taught biochemistry and nutrition at a college most of

his life. This type of thing is his passion.

Anyway, my understanding from everybody is that transfats do no readily form

with just heat. The way trans fats are made is the oil has a nickel powder

stirred into it. This turns the oil gray, but the powder is essential as a

catalyst to allow the hydrogenation to occur. The process then needs

hydrogen gas and heat/energy. Later most of the nickel is reclaimed.

Hydrogenated soybean oil is approximately 14% trans fats. The double bond

is broken at most hydrogenation sites and hydrogen comes in as the

additional bond. The problem is that under the stress of the process, some

of the fats have the double bond break, they twist and then the double bond

reforms. This is a trans fat.

A fully hydrogenated fat does not contain many trans fats, because it is

totally hydrogenated. This means all the double bonds are broken and so a

twisted and reformed double body will not be there. The trans fats are less

than 0.5%.

Another concern that people do not often realize is that there is always

some nickel residuals left in the hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated

oil.

There has been talk of oxidized cholesterol and how bad it is for humans.

And there has been talk of oxidized proteins and how bad they are. There is

also talk of oxidized fats. This is when the unstable fat (and poly

unsaturated oils are not very stable) breaks and forms other compounds.

This oxidation causes free radicals which can interfere with normal

metabolic processes or it can make toxic substances.

Hydrogenation is a specific, controlled form of oxidation using hydrogen and

nickel. It is the trans fats that are the problem there and mainly with

partially hydrogenation processes.

Oxidation of the fats readily occurs with unstable oils that are heated.

The reason coconut oil is so stable is that an already naturally saturated

fat can not be oxidized. Since coconut oil is 92 percent naturally

saturated and 6% mono unsaturated (which is also relatively stable) this

leaves only 2% as poly unsaturated. And virgin coconut oil is a natural oil

that is not stripped of its antioxidants that offer protection from

oxidation when it is heated. So it does not oxidize with heat and it won't

turn into harmful substances for the body In fact, the coconut oil is

extremely easy for the body to assimilate and utilize, it helps the body to

get rid of pathogens, gives energy easily, and does things like increase HDL

and lower LDL. This makes it one of the only oils I would ever " heat and

eat " .

Annette

SPAM: SPAM: Question.trans fatty acids

> I went to the site and found this article that says Trans Fatty Acids

> are NOT formed by heating vegetable oils.

> Need less to say I am now confused, as the Dr Fife states they

> are..... The article from the Weston Price website is below. Can

> anyone help clarify for me??? thanks

I'd certainly go with Dr. Enig here. She's been researching Trans Fatty

Acids since the late 70s at least and is a real authority on the

subject.

One of the best things I've ever read on the subject is an interview of

Dr. Enig by Passwater found here:

http://www.ndmnutrition.com/enig%20passwater%20tfa

* * * * *

On Aug 10, 2004, at 3:42 AM, Coconut Oil

wrote:

> OK...

> I'm reading the book

> THE HEALING MIRACLES OF COCONUT OIL

> BY BRUCE FIFE, N.D.

>

> In this book, he lists references to go to. One mentioned is the

> Weston Price (www.westonaprice.org)

>

> I went to the site and found this article that says Trans Fatty Acids

> are NOT formed by heating vegetable oils.

> Need less to say I am now confused, as the Dr Fife states they

> are..... The article from the Weston Price website is below. Can

> anyone help clarify for me??? thanks

>

> By G. Enig, PhD

>

> One of the frequent questions I receive in my email concerns the

> formation of trans fatty acids in the typical cooking process. I was

> quite surprised the first time I received this question, for several

> reasons. I knew that there were several things that were necessary for

> the formation of the trans fatty acids. One was a tank of hydrogen;

> second was a closed container, which allowed an adequate vacuum to

> form; third, an appropriate catalyst was needed; and last, the heat

> that would allow the chemical changes to occur had to be sufficiently

> high in conjunction with the other components.

>

> During my many years of analyzing foods for the presence of

> trans fatty acids, I had found numerous examples of used frying oil

> that had started out without being partially hydrogenated and did not

> have any trans fatty acids, and there was still never any trace of

> trans fatty acids in the used oil unless the oil had been used for

> frying foods that had been prefried in a partially hydrogenated oil.

>

> I am not sure who started the rumor that frying or even just

> cooking or heating polyunsaturated oils would produce trans fatty

> acids in those oils; but it is just that, an untrue rumor. It was

> likely started by one of the many internet writers hired to fill space

> or by someone who thought he or she knew the reason that there was

> trans fat in a particular product.

>

> The idea that cooking with heat damages the oils that are highly

> polyunsaturated is true and the warning against cooking or frying

> using fragile oils such as flaxseed oil is valid, but not because

> trans fats are formed. What is formed under harsh circumstances such

> as high-temperature cooking and frying is a polymerized oil, and this

> is because the heat has helped to form free radicals and then various

> breakdown products. (Flaxseed oil that is still in the ground seed can

> be heated in baking and it does not become damaged.)

>

> A number of years ago, a dietitian/nutritionist told me about

> her experience trying to make trans fatty acids in an open pan on top

> of the stove. She wanted to make a video of the process to use for

> teaching purposes. She was unsuccessful with this venture, and she had

> contacted me to ask me why her project had failed. She had not

> actually known how the trans were formed to begin with and assumed

> from what she had been told that the raising of the temperature would

> cause the trans to form. The project had been undertaken in one of the

> laboratories in a local university, and the analysis was to be done by

> someone in the same laboratory who knew how to use the instrument for

> analyzing the oil.

>

> Certain types of trans fatty acids could probably be formed from

> a highly polyunsaturated oil during deep fat frying in one of the new

> pressure cooker fryers, but these types of trans fats would be like

> those formed in high pressure deodorization. They would not be the

> broad range of trans fats with delta-6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. So far, none

> of the groups doing analysis have reported this. Very small amounts of

> trans fatty acids have been found in corn chip products formed by

> extrusion cooking. This is due to the high pressure and the presence

> of a type of alkaline catalyst; but those trans that are formed are

> reported only in trace amounts from omega-6 or omega-3 oils.

>

> Those fats and oils that are appropriate for cooking or sautéing

> and will withstand fairly high temperatures are those that have been

> in use for thousands of years, including olive oil as well as the more

> stable saturated coconut and palm oils and the animal tallows. An oil

> such as sesame oil with its special heat-activated antioxidants can be

> blended with coconut oil and olive oil to form a very stable good

> cooking oil.