Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT Article...(long)

[Guest guest]

> >

> >I remember I was at my pre-school physical before going into second

> >grade when I remember telling the doctor in front of my mother that I

> >felt tired all the time after being started on One A Day Vitamins.

>

> Vitamins still have the same effect on me. I don't even try any

more, its not

> just one a day either

>

> Mike

You mean I am not crazy after all these years?

[Guest guest]

> Chris-

>

> >If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E?

>

> Palm oil. It's the richest source by far -- it leaves everything

> else in the dust, literally.

At just under 1 mg_ATE per tsp, you're talking about approx 40

calories per mg_ATE. That's about 0.025 mg_ATE per calorie. By

comparison, sunflower seeds have 0.088 mg_ATE per calorie (over 3x as

much).

Even speaking just in terms of volume measurements, palm oil isn't

any better than most other vegetable oils. It's only slightly higher

in E than corn oil, about half as much as almond or safflower oil and

much less than half as much as sunflower seed oil.

Here's the amounts of vitamin E in 1 tsp of various vegetable oils:

Wheat germ 8.6598 mg_ATE

sunflower 2.276325 mg_ATE

safflower 1.9377 mg_ATE

almond 1.7667 mg_ATE

cottonseed 1.7217 mg_ATE

safflower 1.548 mg_ATE

palm 0.9792 mg_ATE

corn 0.94995 mg_ATE

canola 0.94275 mg_ATE

oat 0.648 mg_ATE

apricot kernel 0.3897 mg_ATE

soy lecithin 0.23265 mg_ATE

walnut 0.1449 mg_ATE

coconut 0.0126 mg_ATE

Of course, the nice thing about palm oil as a source is that it's so

low in polyunsaturates relative to the others and your need for Vit E

goes up with polyunsaturate consumption. Still, I think you're

better off eating some unroasted sunflower seeds or using a bit of

wheat germ oil occassionally.

Of course, many other whole foods are excellent sources of E too.

Here's a list (below) of foods with the amounts of vitamin E listed

per calorie of that food. For example, if you had 5 calories of

coriander leaves, you would have consumed (5 x 0.1087=) 0.54 mg_ATE

of vitamin E. If you consumed 25 calories of radicchio, it would be

(25 x 0.0983=) 2.46 mg_ATE. Sunflower seeds clearly lead the pack in

terms of how much Vit E you'd get in a typical serving. It's

ridiculously easy to consume 75 calories of sunflower seeds, and that

would provide 6.62 mg_ATE.

Coriander leaves, raw 0.1087 mg_ATE

Turnip greens, raw 0.1074 mg_ATE

Chard, swiss, raw 0.0995 mg_ATE

Radicchio, raw 0.0983 mg_ATE

Chicory greens, raw 0.0983 mg_ATE

Watercress, raw 0.0909 mg_ATE

Sunflower seed kernels, dried 0.0882 mg_ATE

Asparagus, raw 0.0870 mg_ATE

Spinach, raw 0.0859 mg_ATE

Beet greens, raw 0.0789 mg_ATE

Mustard spinach, raw 0.0775 mg_ATE

Mustard greens, raw 0.0773 mg_ATE

Collards, raw 0.0753 mg_ATE

Broccoli, flower clusters, raw 0.0593 mg_ATE

Broccoli, raw 0.0593 mg_ATE

Dandelion greens, raw 0.0556 mg_ATE

Fish roe, mixed species, raw 0.0500 mg_ATE

Parsley, raw 0.0497 mg_ATE

Taro leaves, raw 0.0480 mg_ATE

Nuts, almonds 0.0453 mg_ATE

Pumpkin, raw 0.0408 mg_ATE

Loganberries, frozen 0.0402 mg_ATE

Mollusks, abalone, raw 0.0381 mg_ATE

Olives, ripe, canned (jumbo) 0.0370 mg_ATE

Bamboo shoots, raw 0.0370 mg_ATE

Crayfish, wild, raw 0.0370 mg_ATE

Lettuce, butterhead, raw 0.0338 mg_ATE

Seaweed, agar, raw 0.0335 mg_ATE

Lettuce, cos or romaine, raw 0.0314 mg_ATE

Papayas, raw 0.0287 mg_ATE

Seaweed, laver, raw 0.0286 mg_ATE

Olives, ripe, canned 0.0261 mg_ATE

Endive, raw 0.0259 mg_ATE

Peppers, sweet, red, raw 0.0256 mg_ATE

Pepper, banana, raw 0.0256 mg_ATE

Peppers, sweet, green, raw 0.0256 mg_ATE

Lettuce, looseleaf, raw 0.0244 mg_ATE

Nuts, hazelnuts or filberts 0.0242 mg_ATE

Lettuce, iceberg, raw 0.0233 mg_ATE

Celery, raw 0.0225 mg_ATE

Seaweed, wakame, raw 0.0222 mg_ATE

Guavas, common, raw 0.0220 mg_ATE

Cress, garden, raw 0.0219 mg_ATE

Eel, mixed species, raw 0.0217 mg_ATE

Pepper, serrano, raw 0.0216 mg_ATE

Grape leaves, raw 0.0215 mg_ATE

Taro, raw 0.0213 mg_ATE

Okra, raw 0.0209 mg_ATE

Flatfish (flounder & sole), raw 0.0208 mg_ATE

Brussels sprouts, raw 0.0205 mg_ATE

Seaweed, kelp, raw 0.0202 mg_ATE

[Guest guest]

> I do wonder about wheat germ oil as a source, though, because wheat

> presumably has enough E to protect its own polyunsaturated oil

> content (in our climate) and not much more. Since wheat germ oil

> still as that

> polyunsaturated oil, do we just get enough E to protect that oil

> without much extra to help us?

I don't think so. Wheat germ oil isn't any more saturated than most

other polyunsaturated oils, but it's much higher in vitamin E. I

suspect that the E content may be an evolutionary adaptation to allow

the wheat seeds to survive in viable form through very long droughts,

ruminant digestive tracts and possibly even fires. It will indeed be

just enough E for the plants individual *needs*, but that's true of

any source. Plants and animals don't produce nutrients to nourish

their predators; they produce them for their own use.

I think it's irrelevant though. Plenty of fruits and vegetables in

the diet easily supplies more E than is needed. If supplementation

is needed, sunflower seeds or wheat germ seem like the way to go.

Palm oil may be a complete source, but it requires a *lot* of

calories consumed with relatively few other nutrients in order to get

the amount of E that you need. That doesn't seem like an optimal

strategy to me...

[Guest guest]

>>>>Of course, the nice thing about palm oil as a source is that it's so

low in polyunsaturates relative to the others and your need for Vit E

goes up with polyunsaturate consumption.

--------->the same goes for plants, which is why plants with the highest

polyunsaturates concentration, have a correspondingly high vit. e content.

palm oil doesn't NEED much vitamin e to protect it's high saturated fat

content.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 01:04 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Robin,

>

>It you study the glycemic index (GI) info at a site like

><http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm>http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

>you'll see that whole grain bread and white bread have about the same GI

>(about 70), so even though the whole grain is loaded with more nutrients, it

>still has a big influence on insulin response. The question is, of course,

>how were the breads prepared in the research reflected in this lengthy

>chart. Also you may note that pumpernickle bread seems to be lower (about

>40). It also depends on what other foods are in the meal. It gets

>conplicated!

>

>Kris

It also depends on how finely the grain is ground. Until very recently, it

was darn hard

to get really fine flour. I think a lot of the current problems have to do

with

1. Lack of fats (people used to smother bread with butter or olive oil,

not low-fat mayo!).

2. Finely ground flour.

3. Lack of protein eaten with the bread.

Like you say, it gets complicated! From my experience, " dry " carbs

(like crackers) just aren't the same as " wet " carbs (rice or potatoes)

either, though I don't know if this is an insulin issue or bacterial or

just digestion.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

-

>Palm oil may be a complete source, but it requires a *lot* of

>calories consumed with relatively few other nutrients in order to get

>the amount of E that you need. That doesn't seem like an optimal

>strategy to me...

It depends on how you use it. If I take wheat germ oil, or even a vitamin

E supplement extracted from wheat germ oil, I'm going to get some omega 6

oil I don't want. If I cook with palm oil or make mayonnaise with it or do

something like that, I'm not adding any fat to my diet I wouldn't have

consumed in some other form anyway, and I'm getting a complete vitamin E

complex with very little undesirable PUFA, and if I take a vitamin E

supplement extracted from palm oil, most of the oil in the pill will be

saturated or monounsaturated. Furthermore, the PUFA in wheat germ oil

isn't the long-chain animal variety, but the short-chain plant type that we

need very little of and which we already get a bit of in pastured animal foods.

It was quite stupid of me to check Tropical Traditions' palm oil vitamin E

chart without looking at it carefully, because they obviously left out a

few other sources to make palm oil look better, but at the same time I

don't think the USDA database is entirely helpful either, because

officially, vitamin E is just alpha tocopherol, so it's not always easy to

find out how much of the other tocopherols -- and how much of the various

tocotrionols -- different foods contain.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/4/02 3:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bberg@...

writes:

> What about eggs? Calorie for calorie, good eggs should have at least that

> much vitamin E. I'm not sure of the form, but animal foods usually seem to

> have a pretty good assortment.

What is the conversion factor between vit E mgs and vit E IUs? It's awfully

confuisng that E is always written in IUs on foods, but mgs in info tables.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/4/02 1:02:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

kris.johnson@... writes:

>

> It you study the glycemic index (GI) info at a site like

> http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

> you'll see that whole grain bread and white bread have about the same GI

> (about 70), so even though the whole grain is loaded with more nutrients,

it

> still has a big influence on insulin response. The question is, of course,

> how were the breads prepared in the research reflected in this lengthy

> chart. Also you may note that pumpernickle bread seems to be lower (about

> 40). It also depends on what other foods are in the meal. It gets

> conplicated!

This is interesting, b/c when a study came out showing women who ate whole

grain bread had lower heart disease risk, Barry Sears attributed it to the

lower glycemic index. Looks like if it was the bread that was the factor, it

would be better attributed to presence of fat soluble vitamins...

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Thanks to and others offering vit E info, but does anyone have info on

whole wheat as a food? I have no idea how much oil per amount of wheat.

I don't take any supplements except cod liver oil. I'm trying to figure out

a way to maximize E in my diet without spending money I don't have on

supplements.

Right now I use whole wheat and several eggs daily.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 17:59:06 -0000, you wrote:

>

>> >

>> >I remember I was at my pre-school physical before going into second

>> >grade when I remember telling the doctor in front of my mother that I

>> >felt tired all the time after being started on One A Day Vitamins.

>>

>> Vitamins still have the same effect on me. I don't even try any

>more, its not

>> just one a day either

>>

>> Mike

>

>You mean I am not crazy after all these years?

i didn't say that :-) I said vitamins make me feel tired, and to further

describe, i would almost say rather depressed feeling.

My wife bought me a pack of vitamins, wrapped in individual packets, just what a

50 yo man supposedly needs everyday. For about two weeks I took them before I

realized what was going on. I felt terrible, getting through the days work was

really hard, no energy. I stopped the vitamins, and in a day or two i had lots

of energy, felt really jazzed about work and life in general, almost as good as

a vacation :-)

Now I know that some of those pills don't break down in the system and some are

so fractionalized that they are just as useless. Another rip off industry.

mike

[Guest guest]

I have had the same reaction to vitamins. Some companies put additives in them

that I react to. I don't seem to have any problems with taking things that are

powdered or tablet, but caps and coated tablets from most companies cause

problems, especially Shaklee products which are supposed to be the best.

Kat

----- Original Message -----

From: meuritt@...

Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:14 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

Article...(long)

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 17:59:06 -0000, you wrote:

>

>> >

>> >I remember I was at my pre-school physical before going into second

>> >grade when I remember telling the doctor in front of my mother that I

>> >felt tired all the time after being started on One A Day Vitamins.

>>

>> Vitamins still have the same effect on me. I don't even try any

>more, its not

>> just one a day either

>>

>> Mike

>

>You mean I am not crazy after all these years?

i didn't say that :-) I said vitamins make me feel tired, and to further

describe, i would almost say rather depressed feeling.

My wife bought me a pack of vitamins, wrapped in individual packets, just what

a

50 yo man supposedly needs everyday. For about two weeks I took them before I

realized what was going on. I felt terrible, getting through the days work was

really hard, no energy. I stopped the vitamins, and in a day or two i had lots

of energy, felt really jazzed about work and life in general, almost as good

as

a vacation :-)

Now I know that some of those pills don't break down in the system and some

are

so fractionalized that they are just as useless. Another rip off industry.

mike

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Over the weekend I've fallen behind on this conversation, but I

appreciate all the responses to my questions and I have read them all.

I'm not settled on this 'carbs is carbs' yet. Plus, I don't know much

if anything about the Glycemic Index. That I will have to study about.

I can certainly understand if one can't eat carbs because they effect

their health. That's why I gave up meats 10 years ago, but it took me

that long to realize it wasn't the meats, but the type of meats or the

sources that they came from that was the problem. I avoided them

because of all the things they shot into the meats that would effect my

health, steroids, hormones, etc. I ended up demonizing meats and it

wasn't meats that was the problem, it was the sources and what was done

to them that was. I just want to be sure now that I don't demonize

something else that could potentially be good for me in moderation.

That's why I was struck funny by 'carbs is carbs'. I don't want to

label complex or simple carbs in the same category as refined carbs,

because I don't think that they are. Personally, I don't eat a lot of

breads, grains, pastas, beans, root veggies, etc. I never use to drink

milk, kefir or eat yogurt either, yet I'm enjoying those lately and I

can see on the yogurt label it has plenty of carbs in it. I agree that

it has fat and protein in it also, whereas, other carb foods may not.

I'm still learning to eat meats again and finding good sources (North

Farms whom our co-op use to buy from is filing for bankruptcy tomorrow

). This is all rather new to me after so many years in the

vegetarian/vegan camp, who demonized every animal source and even grains

were frowned upon, plus fermented vegetables. I started to move into

fruitarianism last spring before my accident, people are now telling me

I looked pasty then, but I felt great and had lost my excess weight!

Natural Hygiene's concensus diet consisted of 100% raw fruits, leafy

greens/veggies (not starchy ones), nuts and seeds to be the optimal

diet. I followed that mostly and have health issues now. I just don't

want to end up with other health issues down the line, because I

demonized something else. It is hard to know who to believe anymore and

I can't say I've found the perfect diet for me yet. I want to be

healthy, vibrant and full of energy with a shapely body (after

pregnancy). It just concerns me as to what to believe or what to try

next. NT has helped me to overcome the abnormal paps I was having, but

now I have high liver enzymes (Dr. Todd seems to think it due to my body

doesn't know how to ulitize protein), and I still haven't healed from my

neck injury from over a year ago. Therefore, I'm just a little

frustrated and confused. Sorry to have dumped on all of you, as I'm

still looking for the answers.

Robin

[Guest guest]

> >>>>Hmm, you're right, the chart I glanced at doesn't include wheat germ

oil

> for some reason. However, I still think palm oil is the far superior

> source, for two reasons. It offers a much fuller-spectrum vitamin E,

> complete with tocotrionols, which I don't think wheat germ has much of,

and

> palm oil is mostly saturated and monounsaturated, whereas wheat germ oil

is

> mostly PUFA; in fact, 58% of it is omega 6, and most of us get way too

much

> n6 oil already.

>

>

> --------->, i take standard process wheat germ oil. it's a *tiny*

> capsule with 385 mg vitamin E each. It's such a tiny amount of oil, that

i'm

> not at all concerned about the n-6 content. if i had to take large amounts

> of wheat germ oil to get this amount of vit. e, then i might start

gettting

> concerned about the n-6 content:)

>

> Suze Fisher

I think the point it that wheat germ oil is taken as a vit. E supplement,

whereas palm oil is used as an oil that is rich in Vit. E, for mayo, etc.

Kris

[Guest guest]

>

> Now I know that some of those pills don't break down in the system

and some are so fractionalized that they are just as useless. Another

rip off industry.

>

> mike

I was using Centrum, a commonly available human multi-vitamin &

mineral pill, for myself and my dog. I was very upset when I read the

fine print and found out that the form of copper supplementation in

the pill was copper oxide. This is not permitted as a copper

supplement in animal feed (including dog food) because its

bioavailability is so low. I called the customer support to ask about

this and they said - oh well, people are *different*; it's not meant

for animals.

I searched pubmed and found a recent paper saying that it was

senseless to use copper oxide in human vitamin pills when it was of

no value for animals. The paper was written by the same person who

had authored a reference book on minerals that the customer support

person used as a source for her answers. I called back to point out

this recent paper but I might as well have not bothered. (Probably

copper oxide is cheaper, and also it takes up less room in the pill

than some other forms of copper.) I guess I'm naive, but I was

shocked; I had assumed that the quality of ingredioents in

supplements for humans would automatically be as good or higher

quality than in animal feed.

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

>>>It just concerns me as to what to believe or what to try

next. NT has helped me to overcome the abnormal paps I was having,

--------> i think the best thing is to find out what works for YOU. Try all

the foods you WANT to eat and pay close attention to how your body responds

to them. keeping a food journal might help you keep track of how your body

reacts to various foods. (i think heidi figured out her gluten problems this

way...?) If you don't have any specific problem with grains, then why not

eat some? I think the fermented oatmeal porridge recipe in NT is excellent.

haven't had it in a while, but i remember it tasted great with lots of

butter, some milk or cream and a sliced up apple, maybe a little honey.

>but

now I have high liver enzymes (Dr. Todd seems to think it due to my body

doesn't know how to ulitize protein), and I still haven't healed from my

neck injury from over a year ago.

--------->here's something that *might* help you digest your meat better -

soak it in kefir or kefir whey for at least 24 hours before eating. i'm new

to fermenting meat, but the other day i cut a tough chuck roast in half,

broiled one half right away, and soaked the other half in kefir. i usually

just cook it so the outside is done and the inside is raw, which makes it

seem even tougher to chew, especially with a cut like chuck. but what a

difference with the kefir-soaked half of the steak! it was much more tender,

and i bet it would have been even more so had i left it for more than 24

hours (in the fridge, btw). there are other people on this list more

experienced at fermenting meat than i, (katanne comes to mind) so maybe

there's a better way, or an alternative way to make meat more digestible,

but this worked well for me.

you also might want to try digestive enzymes for a while if you are *really*

having a lot of difficulty digesting proteins.

>>>>Therefore, I'm just a little

frustrated and confused. Sorry to have dumped on all of you, as I'm

still looking for the answers.

------->don't even mention it. we're here to help each other, after all

)))

p.s. there are other recovering fruitarians here, so you are not alone in

that respect.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 07:11 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>but the other day i cut a tough chuck roast in half,

>broiled one half right away, and soaked the other half in kefir. i usually

>just cook it so the outside is done and the inside is raw, which makes it

>seem even tougher to chew, especially with a cut like chuck. but what a

>difference with the kefir-soaked half of the steak!

I can vouch for that one! I bought some store-bought steak to

test the concept (the Longhorn I get is too tender to do

" toughness tests, really!). I tested some in kefir, some in a vinegar

marinade. The kefir-soak softens it right up! Vinegar one was

still tough.

Makes great jerky too. Kefir-soak the strips, rinse, add salt and pepper,

dehydrate. Also, they have done experiments with kefir killing

e-coli -- it may provide some safety in the bacterial department,

if that is a concern.

If you can get Longhorn though, it is much easier to chew and tastier.

There are farmers who farm it in a lot of states, and it is

generally grass-fed (Longhorns don't like grain, I'm told).

I can't send you a sample as an attachment, but everyone

who I've given some to take home and cook just loves it.

Our neighbor's wife was sick and dying, and he told us,

" that steak is great. It's the only steak she can still chew! " .

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze,

Thanks for your reply. That's just it, I felt and looked the best

on the raw vegan diet, but it actually caused me problems in the long

run. Now, I'm trying to fix those. I'm eating yogurt and drinking

kefir, but I feel mucus especially in my throat. I've been making Bob's

Red Mill buckwheat pancakes for my family on Sunday mornings with

whooped cream and a little maple syrup and that makes me feel sluggish.

Every Sunday after breakfast I want to go back to bed, so I've decided I

can't eat that and why I limit the carbs. I'm still trying to get use

to meats, but I'm doing better. I'll have to try soaking them in the

kefir and see if that helps. Although, I did buy some digestive enzymes

this past week. It's just remembering to take them with each meal.

I've mostly had fish and poultry at this point, as that's all I've been

able to locate free-range and organic. My quarter parture-fed beef

won't be in until the end of summer / early fall. The eggs I've been

getting work fine for me. I don't really care for cheese, but I do eat

it once in awhile. I did get some organic beef liver when I went to the

city last week and made that. It was good and tender and I could cut it

with a fork. I just started eating fermented veggies and I'm also

trying to get use to those. This is all very new to me, but I can't

said I feel the energy I did on the raw vegan diet. I do feel fuller

after I eat though and I can go for longer periods of time between

meals. I'm not great about writing things down, but I am observing how

I feel with certain foods. I obviously need to learn more about the GI

index and I keep striving to find the perfect diet for me.

Robin

<<i think the best thing is to find out what works for YOU. Try all

the foods you WANT to eat and pay close attention to how your body

responds to them. keeping a food journal might help you keep track of

how your body reacts to various foods. (i think heidi figured out her

gluten problems this way...?) If you don't have any specific problem

with grains, then why not eat some? >>

<<here's something that *might* help you digest your meat better -

soak it in kefir or kefir whey for at least 24 hours before eating.>>

<<you also might want to try digestive enzymes for a while if you are

*really* having a lot of difficulty digesting proteins.>>

[Guest guest]

> to go back to bed, so I've decided I

> can't eat that and why I limit the carbs.

Robin, you might want to read The Metabolic Typing Diet as a

way to help you zero in on what macronutrient balance is best for

you. It's very individual. The book has helped me a lot to figure

out the proportions and specific foods that work best for *me*,

while still eating within the NT/WAPF system (it's very compatible

with NT, and recommends it). It doesn't promote one diet for

every person as being ideal. Here's a website for it:

http://www.metabolictyping.com/ .

Aubin

[Guest guest]

Robin wrote

" It is hard to know who to believe anymore and

I can't say I've found the perfect diet for me yet. I want to be

healthy, vibrant and full of energy with a shapely body (after

pregnancy). It just concerns me as to what to believe or what to try

next.... Therefore, I'm just a little

frustrated and confused. Sorry to have dumped on all of you, as I'm

still looking for the answers. "

Hi Robin,

Not following this thread real close but I can empathize with your being

confused and frustrated with trying to find the perfect diet for you. I

would highly recommend the book by Wolcott called " The Metaboloc

Typing Diet " .

His point is that there is no " One right diet " for everybody but there is a

perfect diet for your metabolic type. By standing on the shoulders of

researchers before him and adding new findings of his own, Wolcott has found

nine fundamental homeostatic controls that go into making up each of our

metabolic types and this determines how you process food from the major food

groups: protein, fats and carbs and means you have a specific macronutrient

ratio that will fuel your body best. Use the wrong fuel and you will end up

with symptoms--hunger, cravings, emotional swings, depression, fatigue, low

energy, etc. Use the right fuel combo and you won't have these symptoms.

I used to be a vegetarian but was always getting sick etc. Turns out my

metabolic type needs lots of protein and fat (others don't need as much and

I suspect given your history you may be more in this camp)--if I eat a diet

with light protein, tuna, lots of veggies little fat--I'm hungry (actually

starving all the time) grumpy, no energy, real yucchy--I tested this out and

it was awful. Give me steak, very rare, and lots of butter and some veggies

and I'm happy--I can't remember the last time I had a cold or was sick.

Still have some detoxing and fine tuning to due but oh what a difference--

You can do this by just listening to your body, but I found the book really

helpful in explaining the underlying principles and also in provding useful

tools for fine tuning your diet.

The metabolic typing principles plus the NT wisdom are a dynamic duo of

dietary knowledge.

--

[Guest guest]

> run. Now, I'm trying to fix those. I'm eating yogurt and drinking

> kefir, but I feel mucus especially in my throat. I've been making

Robin,

Are you using cow's milk? In some people cow's milk can cause phlegm. I

was surprised and dismayed to find out that I needed to stop cow's milk.

Recently, I had some two days in a row (yes, even though I knew I

shouldn't) and after that little bit of dairy I was coughing up mucous

and my nose got runny. Cow's milk also gives me significant brain fog

and pimples. I have these problems even with cow's milk kefir. (I've

never tried raw cow's milk, though.)

When I'm totally off dairy, all the mucous goes away.

I've read that goat's milk will not cause mucous or phlegm. Maybe you

could try that? I'm getting my first raw goat's milk on Thursday and

hoping that I'll be able to add this form of dairy to my diet without

problems.

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I have a reference book with about 4 pages of the Vit E content of foods -

many of them processed, unfortunately. If you'd like a copy send me your

address. OUr copy machine isn't working very well, but I think I can get a

readable copy out of it.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:37 PM

Subject: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

Article...(long)

> In a message dated 8/4/02 3:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bberg@...

> writes:

>

> > What about eggs? Calorie for calorie, good eggs should have at least

that

> > much vitamin E. I'm not sure of the form, but animal foods usually seem

to

> > have a pretty good assortment.

>

> What is the conversion factor between vit E mgs and vit E IUs? It's

awfully

> confuisng that E is always written in IUs on foods, but mgs in info

tables.

>

> chris

[Guest guest]

>>>>I've read that goat's milk will not cause mucous or phlegm. Maybe you

could try that? I'm getting my first raw goat's milk on Thursday and

hoping that I'll be able to add this form of dairy to my diet without

problems.

-->i think i'm responding to an old post, but anyway...*i* get mucousy

sometimes from my raw goat's milk kefir. i don't like it when i work out,

but otherwise i don't think much about it. is there something wrong with

getting mucousy? is it indicative of a problem? or just an annoyance?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze,

Unfortunately, I don't know the answer if " getting mucousy " is indicative

of a real medical problem. I know, though, that it was a problem for me

as I used to get frequent colds. Once off of cow's milk, the mucous

cleared up and so did the colds (and pimples). I rarely get a cold now.

(And when I've cheated, the mucous comes right back -- and sometimes a

cold, too.)

I also know that people who get frequent sinus infections are told to " go

off dairy. " Well, they're told that by nutrition-oriented doctors! When

I had chronic sinus infections, my conventional doctor suggested sinus

surgery which did not solve any problems. Later, I read about dairy --

and that solved my problem!

When I read " Goat Milk Magic " by Jensen, he mentioned that goat's milk

doesn't cause phlegm like cow's milk can. I've been drinking goat's milk

for less than a week, but so far so good.

I hope I don't get mucousy from the goat's milk! Are you certain yours

is from the milk?

> -->i think i'm responding to an old post, but anyway...*i* get

> mucousy

> sometimes from my raw goat's milk kefir. i don't like it when i work

> out,

> but otherwise i don't think much about it. is there something wrong

> with

> getting mucousy? is it indicative of a problem? or just an

> annoyance?

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >>>>I've read that goat's milk will not cause mucous or phlegm. Maybe you

> could try that? I'm getting my first raw goat's milk on Thursday and

> hoping that I'll be able to add this form of dairy to my diet without

> problems.

>

> -->i think i'm responding to an old post, but anyway...*i* get mucousy

> sometimes from my raw goat's milk kefir. i don't like it when i work out,

> but otherwise i don't think much about it. is there something wrong with

> getting mucousy? is it indicative of a problem? or just an annoyance?

As far as I'm concerned it's just a nuisance.

Kris