Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT Article...(long)

[Guest guest]

Great reading, thanks for posting

Mike

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>Any thoughts, as I know many of you

>eat complex carbs over the refined?

I think he (and Taubes and other low-carb advocates) are absolutely

right. People do differ in their ability to handle carbs, including

complex carbs, but I think even complex ones are basically a compromise

food. Per NAPD, people who've eaten healthily all their lives (i.e. plenty

of animal fat and animal proteins) and who come from healthy stock

apparently do OK when some grains are incorporated into their diet (as long

as they're prepared properly and accompanied by loads of fatty animal

foods) but I doubt there are many modern people who could do as well on

such a diet. Perhaps if we all eat well, our great grandchildren

could. Though again, mileage will vary.

-

[Guest guest]

At 08:31 AM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm not a big grain eater from my raw vegan days, but I would have made

>a difference between refined carbs and complex carbs too. Yet, he says

>here all carbs act the same way on the body. It just struck me funny,

>as I didn't realize this myself. Any thoughts, as I know many of you

>eat complex carbs over the refined? (Article following...)

>Robin

Personally I think it's all very complex -- how the blood sugar responds

to a MEAL is not simple at all! Complex carbs do respond differently,

but they all respond differently when you smother them in butter.

And grains are a whole story unto themselves! Then you get into

lectins, phytates, allergies ... I was at a dietician today for my son

and she actually AGREED with me that white rice was better

for him than brown because of the phytate issue (soaking gets

rid of some phytates, not all of them: which is why the Asians spend

so much time polishing the rice before they eat it).

And adding fermented foods to the mix changes the blood sugar

profile too. And fruit acts differently than potatoes. The popular

press and the popular books tend to simplify the daylights out

of everything. I'm eating a limited carb diet, they may or may

not be complex, but I DO try to eat them with fat and protein in

the same meal. Works great for me!

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I posted some of the following not too long ago, but I'll risk repeating

to reply to your message.

When I did an abrupt switch to macrobiotics (high carb -- all unrefined)

one of the first things I noticed was how even and how satisfied I felt

throughout the day. No more sugar highs and lows; no more " I gotta eat

something NOW. " In fact, I almost had a love affair kind of reaction to

the whole grains and leafy greens. I felt like, " Where have you been all

my life?! " This is no exaggeration! I think they must have supplied

some nutrients I was missing.

So, speaking from my experience only, I'd say there's a world of

difference between refined and unrefined. I can't speak to the science.

I know my body responds differently to whole grains compared to refined

carbs.

Now that I've switched from macrobiotics to NT, I've greatly reduced the

amount of whole grains I eat. I'm only eating occasional millet &

quinoa. However, I'm still thankful to have them a part of my diet.

When I end up eating out or at friends' homes and have refined carbs, I

honestly feel like I haven't eaten; refined carbs taste like fluff, do

not satisfy me, and I'm hungry shortly thereafter.

Just my 2 cents worth!

[Guest guest]

I think, aside from people with specific problems that dictate avoiding

certain foods, that all or most foods are good if they are whole and properly

prepared. If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E? My

understanding is wheat germ is the best source, and even eggs are good with

the free-range, but I'd have to eat five a day just to keep up with the USRDA

for vitamin E.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

>>>..I think, aside from people with specific problems that dictate avoiding

certain foods, that all or most foods are good if they are whole and

properly

prepared. If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E? My

understanding is wheat germ is the best source, and even eggs are good with

the free-range, but I'd have to eat five a day just to keep up with the

USRDA

for vitamin E.

-------------> I agree that i don't think grains (particularly heirloom

breeds properly prepared) are as 'bad' as others consider them to be. i do

tend to think that animal foods and veggies are probably more nutrient-dense

calorie for calorie, but i think grains *can* be a part of a healthy diet in

moderation for many people.

In regards to vitamin E, animals foods from pasture-raised animals are a

decent source. it's in their fat, as are the other fat soluble vitamins. for

quantities, check out http://www.eatwild.com/human_nutrition1.htm

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> I'm not a big grain eater from my raw vegan days, but I would

have made

> a difference between refined carbs and complex carbs too.

Yet, he says

> here all carbs act the same way on the body. It just struck me

funny,

> as I didn't realize this myself. Any thoughts, as I know many of

you

> eat complex carbs over the refined? (Article following...)

It's my understanding that the process of digestion requires

input of vitamins and minerals, and that since refined carbs have

been stripped of these, they get drawn out of your body in order

to digest the refined carbs. However, unrefined carbs like

properly-prepared grains (to avoid the problems of

nutrient-blockers like phytates) and whole sweeteners like

Rapadura or maple syrup still have all or most of their natural

vitamins and minerals right there and available for the digestion

process, and therefore they're not stolen from your body during

digestion. So, even if all carbs are converted to glucose in the

body, I believe some carbs TAKE nutrients away from you in the

process and others don't. So when eating carbs, if you're not

allergic or sensitive to the particular substance (wheat for

example, or some particular component like gluten), then eating

it in a whole form is at least less likely to take nutrients away

from you than if you're eating it in the refined form. In my eyes,

refined carbs are usually not just empty calories, but destructive

calories. I'm not anti-carb, I've tried a low-carb approach and

didn't feel well at all (I think whether a person does well with

carbs or not is dependent on their metabolic type), and I believe

grains can be a healthy component of a diet, but I definitely

notice a difference in my own body's reaction between refined

and unrefined (properly-prepared, if applicable).

Aubin

[Guest guest]

At 09:30 AM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I think, aside from people with specific problems that dictate avoiding

>certain foods, that all or most foods are good if they are whole and properly

>prepared. If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E? My

>understanding is wheat germ is the best source, and even eggs are good with

>the free-range, but I'd have to eat five a day just to keep up with the USRDA

>for vitamin E.

>

>chris

I know I spout off a lot about " grains " , but the main culprit is wheat (and

the heirloom wheat

is better, though not quite off the hook). But we do eat whole-grain

sorghum. Just not as

much as some of us used to eat wheat: if you cook it right etc. it is a lot

of *work*, so

hence not " ideal " . Part of the reason people OD on grains in our society is

that they

are for sale, prepared in muffins and poptarts and cereals, literally

everywhere. If you

were walking around the streets in Thailand, you would see carts of

barbequed pork

and dried fish and fried rice thingies instead of Starbuck's carts with

wheat pastries.

I don't think you NEED grain in the diet though: a very large portion

of the world gets little or no grain, just tubers or white rice (which has

no vitamin E to speak

of, I think). Fish, nuts, and seeds are better sources of Vitamin E, and

easier to prepare, IMO.

Also, my main problem with wheat gluten is that it seems to be slightly toxic,

and decidedly allergenic to a lot of people. If a person doesn't have a

problem with

it, by all means eat it -- but it's high on my list of " the usual suspects " .

Wheat germ oil is really concentrated for vitamin E, but it also isn't

really a " grain "

as far as phytates and gluten is concerned. Peanut oil would be full of

vitamin E too,

or sunflower oil.

See:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5554.html

Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " aubinparrish " <aubinparrish@y...>

wrote:

> It's my understanding that the process of digestion requires

> input of vitamins and minerals, and that since refined carbs have

> been stripped of these, they get drawn out of your body in order

> to digest the refined carbs.

This is a pretty vague statement. You might want to check your

sources and see if you can find out exactly which vitamins or which

minerals you're talking about, and at what point (which part of the

digestive process) they might be lost to the body and in what

amounts. If you knew that a certain amount of some particular mineral

was lost in the feces during digestion, you might also want to see if

that mineral was adequately supplied by other foods in the diet, so

that its presence or absence in different forms of carbs might be

irrelevant.

[Guest guest]

> This is a pretty vague statement. You might want to check your

> sources and see if you can find out exactly which vitamins or

which

> minerals you're talking about,

Nourishing Traditions, pages 21-22:

" In nature, sugars and carbohydrates - the energy providers - are

linked together with vitamins, minerals, enzymes, protein, fat and

fiber - the bodybuilding and digestion-regulating components of

foods. In whole form, sugars and starches support life; but

refined carbohydrates are inimical to life because they are

devoid of bodybuilding elements. Digestion of refined

carbohydrates calls on the body's own store of vitamins,

minerals and enzymes for proper metabolization. When B

vitamins are absent, for example, the breakdown of

carbohydrates cannot take place, yet most B vitamins are

removed during the refining process.

The refining process strips grains, vegetables and fruits of both

their vitamin and mineral components. Refined carbohydrates

have been called " empty " calories. " Negative " calories is a more

appropriate term because consumption of refined calories

depletes the body's precious reserves. Consumption of sugar

and white flour may be likenend to drawing on a savings

account. If continued withdrawals are made faster than new

funds are put in, the account will eventually become depleted. "

She doesn't say precisely which nutrients are involved beyond

the B vitamins, but I suspect it's a wide range.

> and at what point (which part of the

> digestive process) they might be lost to the body and in what

> amounts. If you knew that a certain amount of some particular

mineral

> was lost in the feces during digestion, you might also want to

see if

> that mineral was adequately supplied by other foods in the

diet, so

> that its presence or absence in different forms of carbs might

be

> irrelevant.

I don't usually get into the minutae of the chemistry of nutrition,

general information that makes intuitive sense is good enough

for me. I'm not going to micro-analyze my diet and digestion just

so I can eat refined carbs and reassure myself that those

missing nutrients might be provided by other foods I'm eating.

IMO, those other foods probably require their own complement of

nutrients in order to be digested and utilized properly, I'm not

going to depend on them to make up for negative calories

elsewhere in my diet. Sorry if this is not what you're saying, I

don't quite see where you're going with the above statement.

Perhaps superfoods can mitigate to some extent the damaging

effects of eating negative calories, but why not use the whole

food (properly prepared in the case of grains) to begin with when

you eat carbs and avoid the negative calories altogether? I know

that personally I feel like crud when I eat any significant amount

of refined carbs, I've become much more aware of how my body

reacts to food over the past couple of years and it tells me that

refined grains and sugars suck the life out of me.

Aubin

[Guest guest]

>

>..... She doesn't say precisely which nutrients are involved beyond

> the B vitamins, but I suspect it's a wide range.

>

Vitamin B1 and B2. In the late 1800s early 1900s in the southeastern

US and in parts of the far east where the diets werehigh in polished

white rice and sugar (introduced in the far east by the British)

Beriberi and Pellagra were a big problem. It was thought to be highly

contagious but no one seemed to notice that the primitives living on

whole rice and without sugar didn't seem to get it. It wasn't until

the 1930s when the Vitamins B1 were discovered. And soon afterward

efforts were to not return to whole food but to make synthetic

vitamins. And thus were now have devitalized processed foods

supplemented by synthetic vitamins in the form of enriched flour and

cereals. Somehow we are fooled into thinking we can eat empty junk as

long as long as a few nutrients are supplemented.

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>> I know

> that personally I feel like crud when I eat any significant amount

> of refined carbs, I've become much more aware of how my body

> reacts to food over the past couple of years and it tells me that

> refined grains and sugars suck the life out of me.

>

> Aubin

Aubin,

I remember I was at my pre-school physical before going into second

grade when I remember telling the doctor in front of my mother that I

felt tired all the time after being started on One A Day Vitamins.

Well the doctor and my mother didn't believe me. How could vitamins

cause fatigue? But that was 1958 and Vitamins were relatively new to

the market having come out after WWII.

When I was in high school and a junk food junkie, I had developed

these cracks in the corner of my mouth. My doctor then (a different

doctor of course) gave me a salve and told me to take a One A Day

Vitamin (were doctors getting kick-backs?) When I told him I already

was taking a One A Day he told me to take 2 a day until my condition

cleared up. Apparently vitamins are not good substitutes for proper

nutrition.

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E?

Palm oil. It's the richest source by far -- it leaves everything else in

the dust, literally.

-

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:28 PM

Subject: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

Article...(long)

> Chris-

>

> >If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E?

>

> Palm oil. It's the richest source by far -- it leaves everything else in

> the dust, literally.

According to the USDA database, wheat germ oil has more than 8 times as

much--26mg per tablespoon compared to only 3mg per tablespoon for palm oil.

[Guest guest]

-

>According to the USDA database, wheat germ oil has more than 8 times as

>much--26mg per tablespoon compared to only 3mg per tablespoon for palm oil.

Hmm, you're right, the chart I glanced at doesn't include wheat germ oil

for some reason. However, I still think palm oil is the far superior

source, for two reasons. It offers a much fuller-spectrum vitamin E,

complete with tocotrionols, which I don't think wheat germ has much of, and

palm oil is mostly saturated and monounsaturated, whereas wheat germ oil is

mostly PUFA; in fact, 58% of it is omega 6, and most of us get way too much

n6 oil already.

-

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " alecwood " <bill@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:58 PM

Subject: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

Article...(long)

>

> >

> >..... She doesn't say precisely which nutrients are involved beyond

> > the B vitamins, but I suspect it's a wide range.

> >

>

> Vitamin B1 and B2. In the late 1800s early 1900s in the southeastern

> US and in parts of the far east where the diets werehigh in polished

> white rice and sugar (introduced in the far east by the British)

> Beriberi and Pellagra were a big problem.

Pellagra is caused by B3 (niacin) deficiency, and I believe that it's

typically associated with a corn-based diet, and not a rice-based diet. Even

white rice contains some niacin, while most of the niacin is bound up in

unsoaked corn.

> It was thought to be highly

> contagious but no one seemed to notice that the primitives living on

> whole rice and without sugar didn't seem to get it. It wasn't until

> the 1930s when the Vitamins B1 were discovered. And soon afterward

> efforts were to not return to whole food but to make synthetic

> vitamins. And thus were now have devitalized processed foods

> supplemented by synthetic vitamins in the form of enriched flour and

> cereals. Somehow we are fooled into thinking we can eat empty junk as

> long as long as a few nutrients are supplemented.

Well, to be fair, it must have worked to some extent, seeing as how we no

longer have epidemics of beriberi and pellagra.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:59 PM

Subject: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

Article...(long)

> -

>

> >According to the USDA database, wheat germ oil has more than 8 times as

> >much--26mg per tablespoon compared to only 3mg per tablespoon for palm

oil.

>

> Hmm, you're right, the chart I glanced at doesn't include wheat germ oil

> for some reason. However, I still think palm oil is the far superior

> source, for two reasons. It offers a much fuller-spectrum vitamin E,

> complete with tocotrionols, which I don't think wheat germ has much of,

and

> palm oil is mostly saturated and monounsaturated, whereas wheat germ oil

is

> mostly PUFA; in fact, 58% of it is omega 6, and most of us get way too

much

> n6 oil already.

What about eggs? Calorie for calorie, good eggs should have at least that

much vitamin E. I'm not sure of the form, but animal foods usually seem to

have a pretty good assortment.

[Guest guest]

,

Do you know a source for unrefined palm oil?

Wanita

At 10:28 PM 8/3/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Chris-

>

>>If grains are bad, where should we get vitamin E?

>

>Palm oil.  It's the richest source by far -- it leaves everything else in

>the dust, literally.

>

>

>

>

>-

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>Hmm, you're right, the chart I glanced at doesn't include wheat germ oil

for some reason. However, I still think palm oil is the far superior

source, for two reasons. It offers a much fuller-spectrum vitamin E,

complete with tocotrionols, which I don't think wheat germ has much of, and

palm oil is mostly saturated and monounsaturated, whereas wheat germ oil is

mostly PUFA; in fact, 58% of it is omega 6, and most of us get way too much

n6 oil already.

--------->, i take standard process wheat germ oil. it's a *tiny*

capsule with 385 mg vitamin E each. It's such a tiny amount of oil, that i'm

not at all concerned about the n-6 content. if i had to take large amounts

of wheat germ oil to get this amount of vit. e, then i might start gettting

concerned about the n-6 content:)

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>

>I remember I was at my pre-school physical before going into second

>grade when I remember telling the doctor in front of my mother that I

>felt tired all the time after being started on One A Day Vitamins.

Vitamins still have the same effect on me. I don't even try any more, its not

just one a day either

Mike

[Guest guest]

Robin,

It you study the glycemic index (GI) info at a site like

http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

you'll see that whole grain bread and white bread have about the same GI

(about 70), so even though the whole grain is loaded with more nutrients, it

still has a big influence on insulin response. The question is, of course,

how were the breads prepared in the research reflected in this lengthy

chart. Also you may note that pumpernickle bread seems to be lower (about

40). It also depends on what other foods are in the meal. It gets

conplicated!

Kris

Robin wrote:

I don't know if any of you read Dr. Stephan Byrnes' Health on the Edge,

but I found the below article quite interesting. I was especially hit

by this paragraph:

" The report also kept stating that it was REFINED carbohydrates that

were harmful but that complex carbohydrates like whole grains were OK.

Except for a few vitamins and minerals and some fibre, a carb is a carb

is a carb because they all convert in the body to glucose in the end. I

don't think meant to imply in his article that it was not OK to eat

a bowl of pasta, but perfectly alright to eat a big bowl of brown rice

instead. They even showed at the end of the piece saying, " I'm

going to continue eating a low-carb diet. "

I'm not a big grain eater from my raw vegan days, but I would have made

a difference between refined carbs and complex carbs too. Yet, he says

here all carbs act the same way on the body. It just struck me funny,

as I didn't realize this myself. Any thoughts, as I know many of you

eat complex carbs over the refined? (Article following...)

Robin

[Guest guest]

-

>What about eggs? Calorie for calorie, good eggs should have at least that

>much vitamin E. I'm not sure of the form, but animal foods usually seem to

>have a pretty good assortment.

Calorie for calorie? I thought we were talking about supplements. Eggs,

particularly from pastured chickens, are definitely a good source of

vitamin E, but since the vitamin E is dispersed through a whole food it's

not going to have the same density as an extracted, concentrated source

like palm oil or wheat germ oil.

(Another reason to use palm oil is that it's one of the richest available

sources of sources of carotenoids.)

Now, that said, it can get kind of ridiculous trying to fit all these

healthy fats into your diet. There's butter, lard, coconut oil, palm oil,

cod liver oil, some might suggest flax seed oil, and before you know it

there's no room left in the day for protein and fruits and vegetables. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

Wanita-

>Do you know a source for unrefined palm oil?

The only good source of palm oil I know of is Tropical Traditions --

http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm -- but I haven't found

out exactly how they refine their oil.

-

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>It's such a tiny amount of oil, that i'm

>not at all concerned about the n-6 content. if i had to take large amounts

>of wheat germ oil to get this amount of vit. e, then i might start gettting

>concerned about the n-6 content:)

I'm not sure just how good my E supplement is (though it isn't in ester

form and it has no oil filler, so at least it's decent) but I also take a

palm tocotrionol supplement to get what I'd consider a full-spectrum E complex.

I do wonder about wheat germ oil as a source, though, because wheat

presumably has enough E to protect its own polyunsaturated oil content (in

our climate) and not much more. Since wheat germ oil still as that

polyunsaturated oil, do we just get enough E to protect that oil without

much extra to help us? Is it possible, in fact, that our bodies are

sufficiently more hostile to PUFAs that the E in wheat germ oil is

sufficient to protect the PUFAs in the wheat plant but not in our

bodies? I'm just speculating here, but if possible, I'd prefer to get E in

a more saturated base, so that I can maximize the benefit and minimize the

risk.

-

[Guest guest]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " alecwood " <bill@o...>

> < @y...>

> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:58 PM

> Subject: Re: Responses to Taubes' NYT

> Article...(long)

>

>

> > --- In @y..., " aubinparrish " <aubinparrish@y...>

wrote:

> > >

> > >..... She doesn't say precisely which nutrients are involved beyond

> > > the B vitamins, but I suspect it's a wide range.

> > >

> >

> > Vitamin B1 and B2. In the late 1800s early 1900s in the southeastern

> > US and in parts of the far east where the diets werehigh in polished

> > white rice and sugar (introduced in the far east by the British)

> > Beriberi and Pellagra were a big problem.

>

> Pellagra is caused by B3 (niacin) deficiency, and I believe that it's

> typically associated with a corn-based diet, and not a rice-based

diet. Even

> white rice contains some niacin, while most of the niacin is bound up in

> unsoaked corn.

Correct: Pellagra is associated with corn based diets, beriberi is

associated with diets based on polish rice.

>

> > It was thought to be highly

> > contagious but no one seemed to notice that the primitives living on

> > whole rice and without sugar didn't seem to get it. It wasn't until

> > the 1930s when the Vitamins B1 were discovered. And soon afterward

> > efforts were to not return to whole food but to make synthetic

> > vitamins. And thus were now have devitalized processed foods

> > supplemented by synthetic vitamins in the form of enriched flour and

> > cereals. Somehow we are fooled into thinking we can eat empty junk as

> > long as long as a few nutrients are supplemented.

>

> Well, to be fair, it must have worked to some extent, seeing as how

we no

> longer have epidemics of beriberi and pellagra.

Lack of deficiency symptoms is not the same as optimal health. We are

constantly reminded that the U.S. has the best most advanced health

care in the world. However, we are very lucky to have the best

doctors since we are all so sick. I believe we aren't even in the top

ten for lowest infant mortality rates. Rates of diabetes are

skyrocketing – while for years the medical establishment said all fats

are bad, but sugar is sugar is sugar – all carbs are the same.