RE: does excess protein *increase* metabolism?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/29/02 7:27:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> -----> thanks Roman. the thing is i'm really looking for an explanation of

> *how* this works, if it indeed is true. there are all kinds of claims out

> there (saturated fat is bad, low-fat diets ar good, lots of fish oil is

good

> for you, lots of whole grains are good for you and so on, as you know).

lots

> of these claims are not actually true. if i know *how* it works, then i can

> better judge whether to believe it's true, or not.

>

> i do appreciate your input, i just need to know the biochemical mechanism

so

> i can determine whether i feel it's believeable or not

barry sears says that protein stimulates the hormone glucagon, which

facilitates the transformation of stored fat into glucose. thus, says he, if

you eat the right balance of carbs, fat, and protein, from vegetables mostly,

with some fruit and whole grains, the fat and fiber slow down the conversion

of carbs to glucose, limiting the insulin jerk that will lower your blood

sugar, and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new

glucose in the blood from fat.

in any case, that's one biochemical explanation of protein--> inc. metabolism.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

I am not sure about excess protein, but protein does speed up

metabolism, I've heard on some radio interview. I've also heard that low

carb diets are not very effective in shedding extra weight unless they

are high in protein.

Roman

Suze Fisher wrote:

>

> on the subject of metabolism, does anyone know if excess protein has any

> effect on metabolism? a friend who works with dogs stated that it does but

> the material i've read so far doesn't seem to indicate this to *me.* i

> thought someone here might know something about this...

>

> aren't excess gluconeogenic amino acids *stored* until they're *needed* for

> glucose production? so, if someone ate surplus protein, the gluconeogenic

> amino acids wouldn't be immediately turned into glucose for energy (thus

> increasing metabolism) if they weren't needed?

>

> also, does anyone know the order in which the body uses gluconeogenic

> molecules? is it carbs...amino acids..glycerol in that order as a general

> rule?

[Guest guest]

>>>>>..I am not sure about excess protein, but protein does speed up

metabolism, I've heard on some radio interview. I've also heard that low

carb diets are not very effective in shedding extra weight unless they

are high in protein.

-----> thanks Roman. the thing is i'm really looking for an explanation of

*how* this works, if it indeed is true. there are all kinds of claims out

there (saturated fat is bad, low-fat diets ar good, lots of fish oil is good

for you, lots of whole grains are good for you and so on, as you know). lots

of these claims are not actually true. if i know *how* it works, then i can

better judge whether to believe it's true, or not.

i do appreciate your input, i just need to know the biochemical mechanism so

i can determine whether i feel it's believeable or not

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

> and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new

> glucose in the blood from fat.

I am not aware of the glucose being produced from fat. Amino acid,

though, can be converted to glucose. In a stable manner.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>barry sears says that protein stimulates the hormone glucagon, which

facilitates the transformation of stored fat into glucose. thus, says he,

if

you eat the right balance of carbs, fat, and protein, from vegetables

mostly,

with some fruit and whole grains, the fat and fiber slow down the conversion

of carbs to glucose, limiting the insulin jerk that will lower your blood

sugar, and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new

glucose in the blood from fat.

in any case, that's one biochemical explanation of protein--> inc.

metabolism.

-------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad'

eicosanoids.

that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his

explanation of this is on the web anywhere?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

> and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new

> glucose in the blood from fat.

I am not aware of the glucose being produced from fat. Amino acid,

though, can be converted to glucose. In a stable manner.

------->roman, glucose can be produced from glycerol molecules - the

backbone of fats (the one that binds the 3 fatty acid molecules together in

a trialglycerol (triglyceride).

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 07:12 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>on the subject of metabolism, does anyone know if excess protein has any

>effect on metabolism? a friend who works with dogs stated that it does but

>the material i've read so far doesn't seem to indicate this to *me.* i

>thought someone here might know something about this...

The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates before and

after a meal,

and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain

amino acids

stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is:

Guyton, Arthur C.

Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition

WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794

Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise

Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629.

Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his programs --

eat food that stimulate your metabolism.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

> -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad'

> eicosanoids.

> that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his

> explanation of this is on the web anywhere?

He calls them bad so that lay people could understand what he is talking

about. They are pro inflammatory. Greg at

Optimal_Health_and_Longevity group is very adamant about the need

to monitor one's consumption of Omega-6's and balancing them with

Omega-3's.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates before

and

after a meal,

and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain

amino acids

stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is:

Guyton, Arthur C.

Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition

WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794

Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during

exercise

Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629.

Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his programs --

eat food that stimulate your metabolism.

------->Heidi, thanks for that reference! i found the abstract:

Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during

exercise.

Abstract

Serum urea increases with exercise duration suggest prolonged exercise may

be analogous to starvation where protein catabolism is known to occur. The

purpose of this investigation was to alter muscle glycogen levels and to

study the effect on protein catabolism. Six subjects (27-30 yr) pedaled a

cycle ergometer for 1 h at 61% VO2max (mean VO2 = 2.33 +/- 0.7 1 . min-1) 1)

after CHO loading (CHOL) and 2) after CHO depletion (CHOD). The following

urea N measures were made: pre-exercise serum and urine, exercise serum and

sweat (15-min serial samples), and serum and urine during 240 recovery min.

Results demonstrated that 1) exercise serum urea N increased in CHOD

attaining significance (P less than 0.01) at 60 min; 2) serum urea N

increases continued into recovery at all measurement points of CHOD (P less

than 0.01) and at 240 min of CHOL (P less than 0.05); 3) sweat urea N

increased 154.2-fold (CHOD) and 65.6-fold (CHOL) (P less than 0.05).

Calculations indicate that CHOD sweat urea N excretion was equivalent to a

protein breakdown of 13.7 g . h-1 or 10.4% of the total caloric cost. It was

concluded that protein is utilized during exercise to a greater extent than

is generally assumed and that under certain conditions protein carbon may

contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost.

http://reviews.bmn.com/medline/search/record?uid=MDLN.80204005 & refer=scirus

i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that

protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about

protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to

this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far, everything

i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i

haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation

somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase

metabolism in general...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

> -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad'

> eicosanoids.

> that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his

> explanation of this is on the web anywhere?

He calls them bad so that lay people could understand what he is talking

about. They are pro inflammatory. Greg at

Optimal_Health_and_Longevity group is very adamant about the need

to monitor one's consumption of Omega-6's and balancing them with

Omega-3's.

--------->yes, but in oversimplifying it, he is making an incorrect

statement and concurrently demonizes nutrients that are *essential* to our

very existence! they are not 'bad' - they are in fact very good when

consumed in healthy quantities and in healthy ratios with n-3s. like

*everything else* they are only harmful when consumed in excess. he does

them no justice.

i'm familiar with greg's writings on EFAs

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 11:19 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that

>protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about

>protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to

>this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far, everything

>i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i

>haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation

>somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase

>metabolism in general...

>

>Suze Fisher

Did you look up the FIRST reference? There were about 5 references for

the " protein " chapter. But it may have been a note in the paper

itself: it's hard to say with these abstracts!

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Suze,

If I remember correctly from my biochemistry/physiology the digestion of

protein requires more energy, hence the speed up in metabolism. I could

probably dig up something about it in my textbooks, but I've got to go put

some grain to soak for breakfast and get to bed.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

----- Original Message -----

From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:19 PM

Subject: RE: does excess protein *increase* metabolism?

> >>>>>>>The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates

before

> and

> after a meal,

> and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain

> amino acids

> stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is:

>

> Guyton, Arthur C.

> Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition

> WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794

>

> Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during

> exercise

> Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629.

>

> Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his

programs --

> eat food that stimulate your metabolism.

>

>

> ------->Heidi, thanks for that reference! i found the abstract:

>

> Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during

> exercise.

>

> Abstract

> Serum urea increases with exercise duration suggest prolonged exercise may

> be analogous to starvation where protein catabolism is known to occur. The

> purpose of this investigation was to alter muscle glycogen levels and to

> study the effect on protein catabolism. Six subjects (27-30 yr) pedaled a

> cycle ergometer for 1 h at 61% VO2max (mean VO2 = 2.33 +/- 0.7 1 . min-1)

1)

> after CHO loading (CHOL) and 2) after CHO depletion (CHOD). The following

> urea N measures were made: pre-exercise serum and urine, exercise serum

and

> sweat (15-min serial samples), and serum and urine during 240 recovery

min.

> Results demonstrated that 1) exercise serum urea N increased in CHOD

> attaining significance (P less than 0.01) at 60 min; 2) serum urea N

> increases continued into recovery at all measurement points of CHOD (P

less

> than 0.01) and at 240 min of CHOL (P less than 0.05); 3) sweat urea N

> increased 154.2-fold (CHOD) and 65.6-fold (CHOL) (P less than 0.05).

> Calculations indicate that CHOD sweat urea N excretion was equivalent to a

> protein breakdown of 13.7 g . h-1 or 10.4% of the total caloric cost. It

was

> concluded that protein is utilized during exercise to a greater extent

than

> is generally assumed and that under certain conditions protein carbon may

> contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost.

>

http://reviews.bmn.com/medline/search/record?uid=MDLN.80204005 & refer=scirus

>

>

>

> i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that

> protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about

> protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to

> this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far,

everything

> i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i

> haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation

> somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase

> metabolism in general...

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@...

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/29/02 10:12:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad'

> eicosanoids.

> that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his

> explanation of this is on the web anywhere?

>

might be at dr.sears.com. i find this WAPF criticism of his unfair. while

some of WAPF's criticisms _are_ definitely fair, barry sears explicitly

states that the type 2 eicosanoids are essential but that most of us have far

two many of them and are far deficient in type 1, so as short hand he will

call the type 1 " good " and t2 " bad "

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/29/02 11:15:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> --------->yes, but in oversimplifying it, he is making an incorrect

> statement and concurrently demonizes nutrients that are *essential* to our

> very existence! they are not 'bad' - they are in fact very good when

> consumed in healthy quantities and in healthy ratios with n-3s. like

> *everything else* they are only harmful when consumed in excess. he does

> them no justice.

But in his books he starts out explicitly explaining his simplification. I

treat it as any other abbreviation-- as long as it is accepted or you explain

for use, it makes things easier. If I don't know what it means, it makes

things harder.

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

>>>Did you look up the FIRST reference? There were about 5 references for

the " protein " chapter. But it may have been a note in the paper

itself: it's hard to say with these abstracts!

----->oh, weird...no. i thought the second one was part of the first - like

a reference in the textbook or something. i don't think i'll be able to

check the first one though unless i buy the book! oh well, thanks for taking

the time to provide them. i appreciate it

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>If I remember correctly from my biochemistry/physiology the

digestion of protein requires more energy, hence the speed up in metabolism.

I could probably dig up something about it in my textbooks, but I've got to

go put some grain to soak for breakfast and get to bed.

---------->thanks kris sounds plausible...i'll try and find some info on

how this works.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase

metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal

metabolism because the body is launched into the process of

converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only

use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it

to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those

dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates

instead of from protein. I can't remember exactly what the energy

expenditure is for processing each of the different types of energy

foods for storage, but I know that protein is by far the least

efficient.

So assuming that you're eating an amount of calories that would

provide maintenance at your particular weight and activity level, if

you consume say 10% of your calories as protein above and beyond your

base protein needs (that would be between 20%-30% for most people),

your body will try to utilize that surplus 10% for energy. Let's

assume for the sake of argument that 2 calories are burned for every

1 gram of carb converted to energy. Let's further say for the sake

of argument that only 1 calorie is burned to utilize each gram of

carb.

Since you've displaced 10% of your potential carb calories with

protein, when your body tries to utilize it for energy, it will

actually use an extra 2 calories for every 4 calories consumed. If

you have a 2000 calorie diet and therefore a 200 calorie protein

surplus (remember, 10% excess protein calories), that amounts to 100

extra calories burned just in the process of trying to use the food

as energy.

Make sense?

[Guest guest]

skroyer wrote:

>

(it can't store protein, it can only

> use it in the near term or convert it to energy).

Aren't muscles storage of protein?

Roman

[Guest guest]

Yes, . That sounds familiar.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html

----- Original Message -----

From: " skroyer " <scott@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:03 PM

Subject: Re: does excess protein *increase* metabolism?

> Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase

> metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal

> metabolism because the body is launched into the process of

> converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only

> use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it

> to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those

> dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates

> instead of from protein. I can't remember exactly what the energy

> expenditure is for processing each of the different types of energy

> foods for storage, but I know that protein is by far the least

> efficient.

>

> So assuming that you're eating an amount of calories that would

> provide maintenance at your particular weight and activity level, if

> you consume say 10% of your calories as protein above and beyond your

> base protein needs (that would be between 20%-30% for most people),

> your body will try to utilize that surplus 10% for energy. Let's

> assume for the sake of argument that 2 calories are burned for every

> 1 gram of carb converted to energy. Let's further say for the sake

> of argument that only 1 calorie is burned to utilize each gram of

> carb.

>

> Since you've displaced 10% of your potential carb calories with

> protein, when your body tries to utilize it for energy, it will

> actually use an extra 2 calories for every 4 calories consumed. If

> you have a 2000 calorie diet and therefore a 200 calorie protein

> surplus (remember, 10% excess protein calories), that amounts to 100

> extra calories burned just in the process of trying to use the food

> as energy.

>

> Make sense?

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase

metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal

metabolism because the body is launched into the process of

converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only

use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it

to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those

dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates

instead of from protein.

Make sense?

---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this

however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body stored

protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration of protein, is

that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored?

anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein intake,

their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a direct connection to

the increase in protein in their diet. is that a reasonable assumption?

my original question about protein causing an 'increase in metabolism' is

because, as i think i mentioned, a friend mentioned on another list that

'excess' protein might be the cause of excess panting (someone had mentioned

her dog was panting excessively). i've heard about this from other dog

owners - unexplained excessive panting, that is. but i'm trying to figure

out whether excess protein might translate into excessive panting...one

thing i realize that the definition of 'excess' has individual parameters. i

was reading a little of 's " Biochemical Individuality " this

morning and was struck by the WIDE range of requirments for various

essential nutrients in individuals of various species. of course it makes

sense, but it's really powerful to read the research demonstrating the wide

range of requirements, as well as utilization. so, perhaps the dogs that are

panting, assuming in some of them it's due to excess protein, have lower

requirements for various amino acids and are converting the 'excess' to

energy. or, perhaps they have some defect or impairment in protein digestion

(or individual variability) and use *a lot* more energy than other dogs to

digest protein and convert gluconeogenic amino acids to glucose....my

wandering thoughts...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> >

> (it can't store protein, it can only

> > use it in the near term or convert it to energy).

>

> Aren't muscles storage of protein?

>

> Roman

I don't consider muscles a storage depot for protein for two reasons:

1) muscles serve a critical purpose other than providing a protein

reserve. While the body can extract essential protein from muscles

when faced with unmet protein needs, it's definitely not a desirable

situation.

2) The body doesn't create muscle mass in response to excess

protein. It only creates muscle mass in situations where usage

patterns require more muscle mass. Eating more protein won't give

you more muscle mass unless exercise demands it of your body. Even

then, only a tiny fraction of the protein consumed (even in excess)

will actually wind up in the muscle. Furthermore, if muscle usage

drops off, the body will break the muscle down whether it needs the

protein or not.

In contrast, things that are " stored " are generally stored any time

the supply exceeds the need. By that definition, protein can only be

stored as fat...at which time it is no longer available as protein

because the nitrogen-containing amine group has been split off and

excreted.

In other words, no, muscle does not *store* protein. It's simply the

most expendable protein-based structure when you're body is forced to

cannabalize itself.

[Guest guest]

> ---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this

> however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body

> stored protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration

> of protein, is that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored?

Suze,

No, *excess* protein is never stored, only converted energy. In

order for protein to wind up in muscle, the muscle must be worked

hard enough to stimulate muscle growth...at which point the protein

*need* increases slightly. Any *excess* protein (above that need)

will still wind up as fat or, if carbs are too low to support the

brain's need, some may wind up as glucose.

> anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein

> intake, their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a

> direct connection to the increase in protein in their diet. is that

> a reasonable assumption?

It's possible that your dogs were *deficient* prior to increasing

their intake. If that were the case, increasing their protein, may

indeed allow muscle growth that wasn't possible before. It's also

possible that dogs are physiologically different than us in that

regard and do form muscle as a storage mechanism. ly, though,

it doesn't seem likely to me that they're so different in that regard.

I'm clearly no expert in canine physiology though.

On the issue of muscles acting as storage for protein, yes we can

access the protein in muscles if the need for amino acids or energy

is high enough, but I don't think that counts as " storage " for all

the reasons that I outlined for Roman.

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> >>>Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase

> metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal

> metabolism because the body is launched into the process of

> converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only

> use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it

> to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those

> dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates

> instead of from protein.

>

> Make sense?

>

> ---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this

> however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body stored

> protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration of protein, is

> that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored?

Protein is not 'stored' like excess fat, but is utilized for building

tissues and protein tissues are considered reserves that can be drawn on if

needed for more urgent purposes - in fact there is continual turnover. But,

unlike fat stores, if you use protein reserves for building other tissues

you can impair the physiological function of that tissue. (I'm looking at my

old textbook) If you consume excess protein the body has to deal with it in

another way, either burning it for energy or if excess calories are consumed

it would ultimately end up at fat stores.

> anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein

intake,

> their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a direct connection

to

> the increase in protein in their diet. is that a reasonable assumption?

That is because your dogs were active and could use the extra protein for

muscle building. If a typical 'couch potato' eats a lot of excess protein it

will ultimately end up at stored fat, one the body's needs for protein are

met. To utilize extra protein for body building you must exercise the

muscles.

> my original question about protein causing an 'increase in metabolism' is

> because, as i think i mentioned, a friend mentioned on another list that

> 'excess' protein might be the cause of excess panting (someone had

mentioned

> her dog was panting excessively). i've heard about this from other dog

> owners - unexplained excessive panting, that is. but i'm trying to figure

> out whether excess protein might translate into excessive panting...one

The panting may just mean that the increased calorigenic effect of protein

is generating more body heat, so the dog has to pant more to get rid of that

heat (remember dogs don't sweat like we do).

> thing i realize that the definition of 'excess' has individual parameters.

i

> was reading a little of 's " Biochemical Individuality " this

> morning and was struck by the WIDE range of requirments for various

> essential nutrients in individuals of various species. of course it makes

> sense, but it's really powerful to read the research demonstrating the

wide

> range of requirements, as well as utilization. so, perhaps the dogs that

are

> panting, assuming in some of them it's due to excess protein, have lower

> requirements for various amino acids and are converting the 'excess' to

> energy. or, perhaps they have some defect or impairment in protein

digestion

> (or individual variability) and use *a lot* more energy than other dogs to

> digest protein and convert gluconeogenic amino acids to glucose....my

> wandering thoughts...

Could be.

Kris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/31/02 9:46:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r_rom@...

writes:

> Some folks in primaldiet and live-food groups say that after having

> started eating significantly more flesh (raw) than they used to, they

> have built muscle mass, even without exercise. So that seems to

> contradict what you said. For one of stories like that, go to

> http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/rvaf-8-month-physical-1.html

You know, ever since I started eating meat and then trying to do more or less

the Price-type diet, it seems that I build muscle mass perpetually without

exercise. I try to do pushups daily, but have been forgetting lately. I did

53 a few weeks ago, and completely forgot. I expected to drop down to 45 or

so having not done them, but a few days ago I did them for the first time

again and did 58! I found it quite odd...

chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

skroyer wrote:

>

> No, *excess* protein is never stored, only converted energy. In

> order for protein to wind up in muscle, the muscle must be worked

> hard enough to stimulate muscle growth...at which point the protein

> *need* increases slightly.

Some folks in primaldiet and live-food groups say that after having

started eating significantly more flesh (raw) than they used to, they

have built muscle mass, even without exercise. So that seems to

contradict what you said. For one of stories like that, go to

http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/rvaf-8-month-physical-1.html

Roman