Guest guest Posted July 29, 2002 Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 In a message dated 7/29/02 7:27:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > -----> thanks Roman. the thing is i'm really looking for an explanation of > *how* this works, if it indeed is true. there are all kinds of claims out > there (saturated fat is bad, low-fat diets ar good, lots of fish oil is good > for you, lots of whole grains are good for you and so on, as you know). lots > of these claims are not actually true. if i know *how* it works, then i can > better judge whether to believe it's true, or not. > > i do appreciate your input, i just need to know the biochemical mechanism so > i can determine whether i feel it's believeable or not barry sears says that protein stimulates the hormone glucagon, which facilitates the transformation of stored fat into glucose. thus, says he, if you eat the right balance of carbs, fat, and protein, from vegetables mostly, with some fruit and whole grains, the fat and fiber slow down the conversion of carbs to glucose, limiting the insulin jerk that will lower your blood sugar, and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new glucose in the blood from fat. in any case, that's one biochemical explanation of protein--> inc. metabolism. chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 I am not sure about excess protein, but protein does speed up metabolism, I've heard on some radio interview. I've also heard that low carb diets are not very effective in shedding extra weight unless they are high in protein. Roman Suze Fisher wrote: > > on the subject of metabolism, does anyone know if excess protein has any > effect on metabolism? a friend who works with dogs stated that it does but > the material i've read so far doesn't seem to indicate this to *me.* i > thought someone here might know something about this... > > aren't excess gluconeogenic amino acids *stored* until they're *needed* for > glucose production? so, if someone ate surplus protein, the gluconeogenic > amino acids wouldn't be immediately turned into glucose for energy (thus > increasing metabolism) if they weren't needed? > > also, does anyone know the order in which the body uses gluconeogenic > molecules? is it carbs...amino acids..glycerol in that order as a general > rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 >>>>>..I am not sure about excess protein, but protein does speed up metabolism, I've heard on some radio interview. I've also heard that low carb diets are not very effective in shedding extra weight unless they are high in protein. -----> thanks Roman. the thing is i'm really looking for an explanation of *how* this works, if it indeed is true. there are all kinds of claims out there (saturated fat is bad, low-fat diets ar good, lots of fish oil is good for you, lots of whole grains are good for you and so on, as you know). lots of these claims are not actually true. if i know *how* it works, then i can better judge whether to believe it's true, or not. i do appreciate your input, i just need to know the biochemical mechanism so i can determine whether i feel it's believeable or not Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote: > and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new > glucose in the blood from fat. I am not aware of the glucose being produced from fat. Amino acid, though, can be converted to glucose. In a stable manner. Roman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 >>>>>>>barry sears says that protein stimulates the hormone glucagon, which facilitates the transformation of stored fat into glucose. thus, says he, if you eat the right balance of carbs, fat, and protein, from vegetables mostly, with some fruit and whole grains, the fat and fiber slow down the conversion of carbs to glucose, limiting the insulin jerk that will lower your blood sugar, and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new glucose in the blood from fat. in any case, that's one biochemical explanation of protein--> inc. metabolism. -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad' eicosanoids. that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his explanation of this is on the web anywhere? Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote: > and the protein because of glucagon maintains a steady stream of new > glucose in the blood from fat. I am not aware of the glucose being produced from fat. Amino acid, though, can be converted to glucose. In a stable manner. ------->roman, glucose can be produced from glycerol molecules - the backbone of fats (the one that binds the 3 fatty acid molecules together in a trialglycerol (triglyceride). Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 At 07:12 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: >on the subject of metabolism, does anyone know if excess protein has any >effect on metabolism? a friend who works with dogs stated that it does but >the material i've read so far doesn't seem to indicate this to *me.* i >thought someone here might know something about this... The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates before and after a meal, and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain amino acids stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is: Guyton, Arthur C. Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794 Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629. Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his programs -- eat food that stimulate your metabolism. Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Suze Fisher wrote: > -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad' > eicosanoids. > that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his > explanation of this is on the web anywhere? He calls them bad so that lay people could understand what he is talking about. They are pro inflammatory. Greg at Optimal_Health_and_Longevity group is very adamant about the need to monitor one's consumption of Omega-6's and balancing them with Omega-3's. Roman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 >>>>>>>The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates before and after a meal, and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain amino acids stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is: Guyton, Arthur C. Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794 Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629. Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his programs -- eat food that stimulate your metabolism. ------->Heidi, thanks for that reference! i found the abstract: Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise. Abstract Serum urea increases with exercise duration suggest prolonged exercise may be analogous to starvation where protein catabolism is known to occur. The purpose of this investigation was to alter muscle glycogen levels and to study the effect on protein catabolism. Six subjects (27-30 yr) pedaled a cycle ergometer for 1 h at 61% VO2max (mean VO2 = 2.33 +/- 0.7 1 . min-1) 1) after CHO loading (CHOL) and 2) after CHO depletion (CHOD). The following urea N measures were made: pre-exercise serum and urine, exercise serum and sweat (15-min serial samples), and serum and urine during 240 recovery min. Results demonstrated that 1) exercise serum urea N increased in CHOD attaining significance (P less than 0.01) at 60 min; 2) serum urea N increases continued into recovery at all measurement points of CHOD (P less than 0.01) and at 240 min of CHOL (P less than 0.05); 3) sweat urea N increased 154.2-fold (CHOD) and 65.6-fold (CHOL) (P less than 0.05). Calculations indicate that CHOD sweat urea N excretion was equivalent to a protein breakdown of 13.7 g . h-1 or 10.4% of the total caloric cost. It was concluded that protein is utilized during exercise to a greater extent than is generally assumed and that under certain conditions protein carbon may contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost. http://reviews.bmn.com/medline/search/record?uid=MDLN.80204005 & refer=scirus i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far, everything i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase metabolism in general... Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Suze Fisher wrote: > -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad' > eicosanoids. > that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his > explanation of this is on the web anywhere? He calls them bad so that lay people could understand what he is talking about. They are pro inflammatory. Greg at Optimal_Health_and_Longevity group is very adamant about the need to monitor one's consumption of Omega-6's and balancing them with Omega-3's. --------->yes, but in oversimplifying it, he is making an incorrect statement and concurrently demonizes nutrients that are *essential* to our very existence! they are not 'bad' - they are in fact very good when consumed in healthy quantities and in healthy ratios with n-3s. like *everything else* they are only harmful when consumed in excess. he does them no justice. i'm familiar with greg's writings on EFAs Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 At 11:19 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: >i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that >protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about >protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to >this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far, everything >i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i >haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation >somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase >metabolism in general... > >Suze Fisher Did you look up the FIRST reference? There were about 5 references for the " protein " chapter. But it may have been a note in the paper itself: it's hard to say with these abstracts! Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Suze, If I remember correctly from my biochemistry/physiology the digestion of protein requires more energy, hence the speed up in metabolism. I could probably dig up something about it in my textbooks, but I've got to go put some grain to soak for breakfast and get to bed. Peace, Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website: http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html ----- Original Message ----- From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> < > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:19 PM Subject: RE: does excess protein *increase* metabolism? > >>>>>>>The material I read just said the measured the metabolic rates before > and > after a meal, > and protein increased the metabolic rate by around 30%. Because certain > amino acids > stimulate cellular processes. The reference given is: > > Guyton, Arthur C. > Textbook of Medical Physiology, 8th edition > WB Saunders Co. 1991, pg 794 > > Effect of initial Muscle Glycogen levels on protein catabolism during > exercise > Applied physiology (1980) vol 4, 624-629. > > Similar results for MCT too. Cliff Sheats uses this a lot in his programs -- > eat food that stimulate your metabolism. > > > ------->Heidi, thanks for that reference! i found the abstract: > > Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during > exercise. > > Abstract > Serum urea increases with exercise duration suggest prolonged exercise may > be analogous to starvation where protein catabolism is known to occur. The > purpose of this investigation was to alter muscle glycogen levels and to > study the effect on protein catabolism. Six subjects (27-30 yr) pedaled a > cycle ergometer for 1 h at 61% VO2max (mean VO2 = 2.33 +/- 0.7 1 . min-1) 1) > after CHO loading (CHOL) and 2) after CHO depletion (CHOD). The following > urea N measures were made: pre-exercise serum and urine, exercise serum and > sweat (15-min serial samples), and serum and urine during 240 recovery min. > Results demonstrated that 1) exercise serum urea N increased in CHOD > attaining significance (P less than 0.01) at 60 min; 2) serum urea N > increases continued into recovery at all measurement points of CHOD (P less > than 0.01) and at 240 min of CHOL (P less than 0.05); 3) sweat urea N > increased 154.2-fold (CHOD) and 65.6-fold (CHOL) (P less than 0.05). > Calculations indicate that CHOD sweat urea N excretion was equivalent to a > protein breakdown of 13.7 g . h-1 or 10.4% of the total caloric cost. It was > concluded that protein is utilized during exercise to a greater extent than > is generally assumed and that under certain conditions protein carbon may > contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost. > http://reviews.bmn.com/medline/search/record?uid=MDLN.80204005 & refer=scirus > > > > i can't seem to make the leap that the researchers here concluded that > protein increased the metabolic rate. this study seemed to be more about > protein *catabolism* during excercise and their conclusion is related to > this, not that protein stimulates metabolism in general. so far, everything > i've dug up on this discusses protein metabolism during excercise (but i > haven't searched very far yet). i wonder if there's a clear explanation > somewhere (if it is true) *how* protein, or specific amino acids, increase > metabolism in general... > > Suze Fisher > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > mailto:s.fisher22@... > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 In a message dated 7/29/02 10:12:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > -------->barry sears also says that n-6 fatty acids produce 'bad' > eicosanoids. > that makes me take anything he says cautiously. do you know if his > explanation of this is on the web anywhere? > might be at dr.sears.com. i find this WAPF criticism of his unfair. while some of WAPF's criticisms _are_ definitely fair, barry sears explicitly states that the type 2 eicosanoids are essential but that most of us have far two many of them and are far deficient in type 1, so as short hand he will call the type 1 " good " and t2 " bad " chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 In a message dated 7/29/02 11:15:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > --------->yes, but in oversimplifying it, he is making an incorrect > statement and concurrently demonizes nutrients that are *essential* to our > very existence! they are not 'bad' - they are in fact very good when > consumed in healthy quantities and in healthy ratios with n-3s. like > *everything else* they are only harmful when consumed in excess. he does > them no justice. But in his books he starts out explicitly explaining his simplification. I treat it as any other abbreviation-- as long as it is accepted or you explain for use, it makes things easier. If I don't know what it means, it makes things harder. chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 >>>Did you look up the FIRST reference? There were about 5 references for the " protein " chapter. But it may have been a note in the paper itself: it's hard to say with these abstracts! ----->oh, weird...no. i thought the second one was part of the first - like a reference in the textbook or something. i don't think i'll be able to check the first one though unless i buy the book! oh well, thanks for taking the time to provide them. i appreciate it Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 >>>>>>>>If I remember correctly from my biochemistry/physiology the digestion of protein requires more energy, hence the speed up in metabolism. I could probably dig up something about it in my textbooks, but I've got to go put some grain to soak for breakfast and get to bed. ---------->thanks kris sounds plausible...i'll try and find some info on how this works. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal metabolism because the body is launched into the process of converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates instead of from protein. I can't remember exactly what the energy expenditure is for processing each of the different types of energy foods for storage, but I know that protein is by far the least efficient. So assuming that you're eating an amount of calories that would provide maintenance at your particular weight and activity level, if you consume say 10% of your calories as protein above and beyond your base protein needs (that would be between 20%-30% for most people), your body will try to utilize that surplus 10% for energy. Let's assume for the sake of argument that 2 calories are burned for every 1 gram of carb converted to energy. Let's further say for the sake of argument that only 1 calorie is burned to utilize each gram of carb. Since you've displaced 10% of your potential carb calories with protein, when your body tries to utilize it for energy, it will actually use an extra 2 calories for every 4 calories consumed. If you have a 2000 calorie diet and therefore a 200 calorie protein surplus (remember, 10% excess protein calories), that amounts to 100 extra calories burned just in the process of trying to use the food as energy. Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2002 Report Share Posted July 30, 2002 skroyer wrote: > (it can't store protein, it can only > use it in the near term or convert it to energy). Aren't muscles storage of protein? Roman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 Yes, . That sounds familiar. Peace, Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio If you want to hear the good news about butter check out this website: http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/know_your_fats.html ----- Original Message ----- From: " skroyer " <scott@...> < > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: Re: does excess protein *increase* metabolism? > Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase > metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal > metabolism because the body is launched into the process of > converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only > use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it > to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those > dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates > instead of from protein. I can't remember exactly what the energy > expenditure is for processing each of the different types of energy > foods for storage, but I know that protein is by far the least > efficient. > > So assuming that you're eating an amount of calories that would > provide maintenance at your particular weight and activity level, if > you consume say 10% of your calories as protein above and beyond your > base protein needs (that would be between 20%-30% for most people), > your body will try to utilize that surplus 10% for energy. Let's > assume for the sake of argument that 2 calories are burned for every > 1 gram of carb converted to energy. Let's further say for the sake > of argument that only 1 calorie is burned to utilize each gram of > carb. > > Since you've displaced 10% of your potential carb calories with > protein, when your body tries to utilize it for energy, it will > actually use an extra 2 calories for every 4 calories consumed. If > you have a 2000 calorie diet and therefore a 200 calorie protein > surplus (remember, 10% excess protein calories), that amounts to 100 > extra calories burned just in the process of trying to use the food > as energy. > > Make sense? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 >>>Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal metabolism because the body is launched into the process of converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates instead of from protein. Make sense? ---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body stored protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration of protein, is that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored? anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein intake, their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a direct connection to the increase in protein in their diet. is that a reasonable assumption? my original question about protein causing an 'increase in metabolism' is because, as i think i mentioned, a friend mentioned on another list that 'excess' protein might be the cause of excess panting (someone had mentioned her dog was panting excessively). i've heard about this from other dog owners - unexplained excessive panting, that is. but i'm trying to figure out whether excess protein might translate into excessive panting...one thing i realize that the definition of 'excess' has individual parameters. i was reading a little of 's " Biochemical Individuality " this morning and was struck by the WIDE range of requirments for various essential nutrients in individuals of various species. of course it makes sense, but it's really powerful to read the research demonstrating the wide range of requirements, as well as utilization. so, perhaps the dogs that are panting, assuming in some of them it's due to excess protein, have lower requirements for various amino acids and are converting the 'excess' to energy. or, perhaps they have some defect or impairment in protein digestion (or individual variability) and use *a lot* more energy than other dogs to digest protein and convert gluconeogenic amino acids to glucose....my wandering thoughts... Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 > > > (it can't store protein, it can only > > use it in the near term or convert it to energy). > > Aren't muscles storage of protein? > > Roman I don't consider muscles a storage depot for protein for two reasons: 1) muscles serve a critical purpose other than providing a protein reserve. While the body can extract essential protein from muscles when faced with unmet protein needs, it's definitely not a desirable situation. 2) The body doesn't create muscle mass in response to excess protein. It only creates muscle mass in situations where usage patterns require more muscle mass. Eating more protein won't give you more muscle mass unless exercise demands it of your body. Even then, only a tiny fraction of the protein consumed (even in excess) will actually wind up in the muscle. Furthermore, if muscle usage drops off, the body will break the muscle down whether it needs the protein or not. In contrast, things that are " stored " are generally stored any time the supply exceeds the need. By that definition, protein can only be stored as fat...at which time it is no longer available as protein because the nitrogen-containing amine group has been split off and excreted. In other words, no, muscle does not *store* protein. It's simply the most expendable protein-based structure when you're body is forced to cannabalize itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 > ---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this > however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body > stored protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration > of protein, is that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored? Suze, No, *excess* protein is never stored, only converted energy. In order for protein to wind up in muscle, the muscle must be worked hard enough to stimulate muscle growth...at which point the protein *need* increases slightly. Any *excess* protein (above that need) will still wind up as fat or, if carbs are too low to support the brain's need, some may wind up as glucose. > anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein > intake, their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a > direct connection to the increase in protein in their diet. is that > a reasonable assumption? It's possible that your dogs were *deficient* prior to increasing their intake. If that were the case, increasing their protein, may indeed allow muscle growth that wasn't possible before. It's also possible that dogs are physiologically different than us in that regard and do form muscle as a storage mechanism. ly, though, it doesn't seem likely to me that they're so different in that regard. I'm clearly no expert in canine physiology though. On the issue of muscles acting as storage for protein, yes we can access the protein in muscles if the need for amino acids or energy is high enough, but I don't think that counts as " storage " for all the reasons that I outlined for Roman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 Suze, > >>>Well, it's not what we typically think of when we say " increase > metabolism, " but excess protein consumption *would* increase basal > metabolism because the body is launched into the process of > converting the protein to energy (it can't store protein, it can only > use it in the near term or convert it to energy). As it converts it > to energy it *uses more* energy to do so than it would if those > dietary calories being converted were from fat or carbohydrates > instead of from protein. > > Make sense? > > ---------->yes! thanks for a clear explanation of this > however, i have the same question roman asked...i thought the body stored > protein in muscle..? muscle tissue has a high concentration of protein, is > that not where 'excess' dietary protein is stored? Protein is not 'stored' like excess fat, but is utilized for building tissues and protein tissues are considered reserves that can be drawn on if needed for more urgent purposes - in fact there is continual turnover. But, unlike fat stores, if you use protein reserves for building other tissues you can impair the physiological function of that tissue. (I'm looking at my old textbook) If you consume excess protein the body has to deal with it in another way, either burning it for energy or if excess calories are consumed it would ultimately end up at fat stores. > anecdotally, i noticed that as i increased both of my dogs' protein intake, > their muscle mass also increased. i assumed there was a direct connection to > the increase in protein in their diet. is that a reasonable assumption? That is because your dogs were active and could use the extra protein for muscle building. If a typical 'couch potato' eats a lot of excess protein it will ultimately end up at stored fat, one the body's needs for protein are met. To utilize extra protein for body building you must exercise the muscles. > my original question about protein causing an 'increase in metabolism' is > because, as i think i mentioned, a friend mentioned on another list that > 'excess' protein might be the cause of excess panting (someone had mentioned > her dog was panting excessively). i've heard about this from other dog > owners - unexplained excessive panting, that is. but i'm trying to figure > out whether excess protein might translate into excessive panting...one The panting may just mean that the increased calorigenic effect of protein is generating more body heat, so the dog has to pant more to get rid of that heat (remember dogs don't sweat like we do). > thing i realize that the definition of 'excess' has individual parameters. i > was reading a little of 's " Biochemical Individuality " this > morning and was struck by the WIDE range of requirments for various > essential nutrients in individuals of various species. of course it makes > sense, but it's really powerful to read the research demonstrating the wide > range of requirements, as well as utilization. so, perhaps the dogs that are > panting, assuming in some of them it's due to excess protein, have lower > requirements for various amino acids and are converting the 'excess' to > energy. or, perhaps they have some defect or impairment in protein digestion > (or individual variability) and use *a lot* more energy than other dogs to > digest protein and convert gluconeogenic amino acids to glucose....my > wandering thoughts... Could be. Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 In a message dated 7/31/02 9:46:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r_rom@... writes: > Some folks in primaldiet and live-food groups say that after having > started eating significantly more flesh (raw) than they used to, they > have built muscle mass, even without exercise. So that seems to > contradict what you said. For one of stories like that, go to > http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/rvaf-8-month-physical-1.html You know, ever since I started eating meat and then trying to do more or less the Price-type diet, it seems that I build muscle mass perpetually without exercise. I try to do pushups daily, but have been forgetting lately. I did 53 a few weeks ago, and completely forgot. I expected to drop down to 45 or so having not done them, but a few days ago I did them for the first time again and did 58! I found it quite odd... chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 skroyer wrote: > > No, *excess* protein is never stored, only converted energy. In > order for protein to wind up in muscle, the muscle must be worked > hard enough to stimulate muscle growth...at which point the protein > *need* increases slightly. Some folks in primaldiet and live-food groups say that after having started eating significantly more flesh (raw) than they used to, they have built muscle mass, even without exercise. So that seems to contradict what you said. For one of stories like that, go to http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/rvaf-8-month-physical-1.html Roman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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