dental implants

[Guest guest]

" healing6002 " wrote:

> Since I have been diagnosed with CFS, FM, MCS and OI and am

> apprehensive about introducing any type of foreign matter in my

> body, I am requesting feedback from anyone who has had an implant

> (as opposed to a partial plate which I think is the only other

> alternative)...it is my understanding that the metal used for

> implants is titanium and that it is often used in non-dental

> surgeries...still, I am concerned about rejection and/or infection

> as well as the many other issues PWC are constantly battling,

> etc.....please be as specific as you care to be when

> responding....thanks

>

I'm a dental lab tech. In the early nineties, I began seeing

patients the dentists called " Crazies " who were making weird claims

of " metal toxicity " and would come in for appointments carrying

copies of some " Clifford Biocompatibility test " .

They would demand that crowns be made with specific alloys, based on

these tests.

The dentists didn't believe a word of it, but would generally humor

them anyway, and I would have to go chase down that specific alloy.

The strange thing was, these patients making unbelievable claims

kept pointing to their gums that were turning blue below offending

crowns.

It seems strange that a psychological-mental illness of " toxicity-

obsession " could create inflamed gum tissue in just the right spot,

but you know how powerful " The Power of the Mind " is. It can do

anything, right?

These people would try different materials and implants, and the

outcomes were very unpredictable.

There's no official attempt to correlate " rate of implant failure "

with people who make these claims of " metal toxicity " , so their

statistics are blended in with the general population. Even though

their " numbers " are watered down in this way - the increased rate of

failure is frightening, and dentists are starting to wonder why.

This is undermining their faith in the materials and putting their

credibility in question - when their work just inexplicably " goes

belly up " .

When you examine ONLY those people who made the claim of potential

toxicity, (for me, done by memory alone) the rate is staggering.

So much so, that my personal choice is to avoid implants.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi, Healing6002.

I had a titanium implant put in back in 2003 and have had no problems

from it. I once a bad osteonecrotic lesion that resided below where

this molar was put in, but the antibiotics used around the time of the

last surgery for it and nondenatured whey use over the last few years

seem to help prevent any new problems.

" healing6002 " <healing6002@...> wrote:

>

>

> Because I have had porcelain crowns on all of my teeth since 1992, I

> am now beginning to experience problems...that is, currently two

> adjoining crowns have fallen off...my dentist says it happened

> because what remained of the natural tooth had broken off almost at

> the gum line...this means it is impossible to seat the crowns

> again...as he explained, the process of preparing teeth for crowns

> involves reducing the natural tooth to about 1/3 of its full

> size...of course, this weakens the structure of the tooth remaining

> 1/3, thus causing it to eventually break off because of its weakened

> state...

>

> Since I have been diagnosed with CFS, FM, MCS and OI and am

> apprehensive about introducing any type of foreign matter in my

> body, I am requesting feedback from anyone who has had an implant

> (as opposed to a partial plate which I think is the only other

> alternative)...it is my understanding that the metal used for

> implants is titanium and that it is often used in non-dental

> surgeries...still, I am concerned about rejection and/or infection

> as well as the many other issues PWC are constantly battling,

> etc.....please be as specific as you care to be when

> responding....thanks

>

[Guest guest]

Ay yi yi. The focus is on metal toxicity?...despite the fact that the

need for the crowns and implants is almost always a result of

infection.

Before letting anyone put an implant in my jaw, I'd do a whole lot of

research on chronic osteomyelitis (bone infection) and read carefully

how actual doctors who are properly trained (orthopedic surgeons &

infectious disease doctors) treat infections and surgical implants in

parts of the body which aren't nearly as tricky as the jaw. Check out

their success and failure rates. It's not easy, even for the best of

the experts. I have about as much confidence in dentists doing

implants as I have in letting my neighbor drill a hole in my skull

and sticking a screw in it.

penny

>

> > Since I have been diagnosed with CFS, FM, MCS and OI and am

> > apprehensive about introducing any type of foreign matter in my

> > body, I am requesting feedback from anyone who has had an implant

> > (as opposed to a partial plate which I think is the only other

> > alternative)...it is my understanding that the metal used for

> > implants is titanium and that it is often used in non-dental

> > surgeries...still, I am concerned about rejection and/or

infection

> > as well as the many other issues PWC are constantly battling,

> > etc.....please be as specific as you care to be when

> > responding....thanks

> >

>

> I'm a dental lab tech. In the early nineties, I began seeing

> patients the dentists called " Crazies " who were making weird claims

> of " metal toxicity " and would come in for appointments carrying

> copies of some " Clifford Biocompatibility test " .

> They would demand that crowns be made with specific alloys, based

on

> these tests.

> The dentists didn't believe a word of it, but would generally

humor

> them anyway, and I would have to go chase down that specific alloy.

> The strange thing was, these patients making unbelievable claims

> kept pointing to their gums that were turning blue below offending

> crowns.

> It seems strange that a psychological-mental illness of " toxicity-

> obsession " could create inflamed gum tissue in just the right spot,

> but you know how powerful " The Power of the Mind " is. It can do

> anything, right?

> These people would try different materials and implants, and the

> outcomes were very unpredictable.

> There's no official attempt to correlate " rate of implant failure "

> with people who make these claims of " metal toxicity " , so their

> statistics are blended in with the general population. Even though

> their " numbers " are watered down in this way - the increased rate

of

> failure is frightening, and dentists are starting to wonder why.

> This is undermining their faith in the materials and putting their

> credibility in question - when their work just inexplicably " goes

> belly up " .

> When you examine ONLY those people who made the claim of potential

> toxicity, (for me, done by memory alone) the rate is staggering.

> So much so, that my personal choice is to avoid implants.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Forgot to add, my hyperbaric specialist and oral surgeons who treated

me for my left jaws osteomyelitis and got rid of the necrotic lesion

said the titanium implant was okay to finally do when I did. They

were thorough, seem to understand CFS senstivities and so far so good,

supported by the infection suppressing whey protein.

<david-hall@...> wrote:

>

> Hi, Healing6002.

>

>

>

> I had a titanium implant put in back in 2003 and have had no problems

> from it. I once a bad osteonecrotic lesion that resided below where

> this molar was put in, but the antibiotics used around the time of the

> last surgery for it and nondenatured whey use over the last few years

> seem to help prevent any new problems.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments are why

you are better or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

a Carnes

>

> Forgot to add, my hyperbaric specialist and oral surgeons who

treated

> me for my left jaws osteomyelitis and got rid of the necrotic lesion

> said the titanium implant was okay to finally do when I did. They

> were thorough, seem to understand CFS senstivities and so far so

good,

> supported by the infection suppressing whey protein.

>

>

>

> <david-hall@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi, Healing6002.

> >

> >

> >

> > I had a titanium implant put in back in 2003 and have had no

problems

> > from it. I once a bad osteonecrotic lesion that resided below

where

> > this molar was put in, but the antibiotics used around the time

of the

> > last surgery for it and nondenatured whey use over the last few

years

> > seem to help prevent any new problems.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, a.

" pjeanneus " <pj7@...> wrote:

>

> ,

> Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments are why

> you are better

***No need to speculate. Rich's newly filed 2007 IACFS poster for CFS

pathogenesis in the file section to your left on this page explains

the science behind my improvement(over 160 references).

or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

> in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

***Not sure what you're referring to as I've had CFS well before 2003,

which includes many, but perhaps mostly viral infections, riddling our

brains and immune systems in any given year. The osteomyelitis was

first diagnosed back in 1996 and was treated with several things since

then, with the whey protein being the ultimate suppressor of recurring

inflammation and pain.

***Abx were obviously used just prior and long following my oral

surgeries for the osteo, if that's what you're getting at, but

certainly haven't been needed during my RenewPro use over the last few

years.

>

> a Carnes

***

[Guest guest]

This is mind blowing to me. You've already been dx'd and treated for

classic osteomyelitis (bone infection) and yet you dismiss it as a

minor bump in the road along your " CFS " journey. You prefer to

believe that your CFS is a result of a glutathione depletion and weak

immune system while turning a blind eye to the tenacity and

imperviousness of the organisms themselves?

Are you seriously saying that you fully understand OM and all its

implications and still saw no risk in getting a dental implant,

considering your health status?

Are people really never going to wake up????

penny

p.s. Just for my own research purposes, would you mind telling me

which organisms were found in your bone? Also, have you followed up

by researching all of the various health conditions these organisms

are known to cause? If not, I highly recommend knowing what you're

dealing with.

> >

> > ,

> > Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments are

why

> > you are better

>

>

>

> ***No need to speculate. Rich's newly filed 2007 IACFS poster for

CFS

> pathogenesis in the file section to your left on this page explains

> the science behind my improvement(over 160 references).

>

>

>

> or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

> > in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

>

>

>

> ***Not sure what you're referring to as I've had CFS well before

2003,

> which includes many, but perhaps mostly viral infections, riddling

our

> brains and immune systems in any given year. The osteomyelitis was

> first diagnosed back in 1996 and was treated with several things

since

> then, with the whey protein being the ultimate suppressor of

recurring

> inflammation and pain.

>

>

>

> ***Abx were obviously used just prior and long following my oral

> surgeries for the osteo, if that's what you're getting at, but

> certainly haven't been needed during my RenewPro use over the last

few

> years.

>

> >

> > a Carnes

>

>

>

> ***

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My speculation was that your improvement might be a providential

combo of antibiotics for " side " issues combined with whey protein,

etc.

I tend to give all credit for my improvement to antibiotics

forgetting to mention that I took supplements and hormones the ENTIRE

time I was recovering. So I am wondering if your posts might be the

reverse of mine - emphasizing the supplements.

I see this in my son's recovery from Lyme. He took 4 months of an

antibiotic then switched to Chinese herbs and mainly garlic. So far

in 3 years he is fine. What was the fix? Probably both. Will it last?

Who knows.

I hope I am making my point more clear. " Do the one, not leave the

other undone. "

a

>

> Hi, a.

>

>

>

> " pjeanneus " <pj7@> wrote:

> >

> > ,

> > Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments are

why

> > you are better

>

>

>

> ***No need to speculate. Rich's newly filed 2007 IACFS poster for

CFS

> pathogenesis in the file section to your left on this page explains

> the science behind my improvement(over 160 references).

>

>

>

> or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

> > in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

>

>

>

> ***Not sure what you're referring to as I've had CFS well before

2003,

> which includes many, but perhaps mostly viral infections, riddling

our

> brains and immune systems in any given year. The osteomyelitis was

> first diagnosed back in 1996 and was treated with several things

since

> then, with the whey protein being the ultimate suppressor of

recurring

> inflammation and pain.

>

>

>

> ***Abx were obviously used just prior and long following my oral

> surgeries for the osteo, if that's what you're getting at, but

> certainly haven't been needed during my RenewPro use over the last

few

> years.

>

> >

> > a Carnes

>

>

>

> ***

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Penny.

<pennyhoule@...> wrote:

Just for my own research purposes, would you mind telling me

> which organisms were found in your bone?

***Well your assumption of credulity aside and before this, how about

first you telling me completely what you're dealing with as far as

infection and persistent problem OM symtoms go, as I might be able to

tell you the weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics. I know

a good deal as I've conquered this particular problem and I have a

classic case of CFS.

***

>

> > >

> > > ,

> > > Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments are

> why

> > > you are better

> >

> >

> >

> > ***No need to speculate. Rich's newly filed 2007 IACFS poster for

> CFS

> > pathogenesis in the file section to your left on this page explains

> > the science behind my improvement(over 160 references).

> >

> >

> >

> > or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

> > > in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Not sure what you're referring to as I've had CFS well before

> 2003,

> > which includes many, but perhaps mostly viral infections, riddling

> our

> > brains and immune systems in any given year. The osteomyelitis was

> > first diagnosed back in 1996 and was treated with several things

> since

> > then, with the whey protein being the ultimate suppressor of

> recurring

> > inflammation and pain.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Abx were obviously used just prior and long following my oral

> > surgeries for the osteo, if that's what you're getting at, but

> > certainly haven't been needed during my RenewPro use over the last

> few

> > years.

> >

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, a.

<pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

> My speculation was that your improvement might be a providential

> combo of antibiotics for " side " issues combined with whey protein,

> etc.

>

> I tend to give all credit for my improvement to antibiotics

> forgetting to mention that I took supplements and hormones the ENTIRE

> time I was recovering. So I am wondering if your posts might be the

> reverse of mine - emphasizing the supplements.

>

> I see this in my son's recovery from Lyme. He took 4 months of an

> antibiotic then switched to Chinese herbs and mainly garlic. So far

> in 3 years he is fine. What was the fix? Probably both. Will it last?

> Who knows.

>

> I hope I am making my point more clear. " Do the one, not leave the

> other undone. "

>

> a

***I for the most part agree with this point. And just like there are

variable combos of abx that may work for different lyme cases and not

others and for some none, taking care of the terrain, which also is

showing variability in treatment per PWC, may be the key for many with

abx being less important, if needed at all, in the war of attrition

with chronic microbes and increasing detox capacity.

***So, both of our different attributions of what helped us most may

not just be belief, but an accurate observation what actually has been

the more important treatment for us. All PWCs yet different strokes

for different folks.

***

[Guest guest]

I've posted my situation here numerous times over the years. I know

your Swann & Tufts and all the " specialists " . I've had i.v. abx,

bought a hyperbaric chamber, had surgical debridement, even had a

baloon sinuplasty despite the absence of sinus symptoms. The abx have

consistently helped; the surgeries so far have only spread the

infection. I've done i.v. glutathione, taken immunepro, you name it,

I've probably done it, except possibly going to Russia to have phage

therapy to target my organisms.

The organisms which shouldn't reside in my bone and sinuses, but do,

are staph, pseudomonas, strep & p. acnes. And probably actinomyces,

(although that one's really hard to culture) because I have the

classic wormholing between jaw and sinuses that actino causes. The

strep and p. acnes are most likely opportunistic. The staph and the

pseudomonas and the actino are probably the ones that have made me

sick, as they are the most difficult bugs to eradicate and show up

most frequently in my tests, despite tons of antimicrobial treatment.

That's why bacteria are so formiddable once they get a foothold. They

can resist almost everything.

If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy because

that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic " CFS and

find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that is? My

guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope you do.

penny

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > Could you speculate a bit on whether your present treatments

are

> > why

> > > > you are better

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***No need to speculate. Rich's newly filed 2007 IACFS poster

for

> > CFS

> > > pathogenesis in the file section to your left on this page

explains

> > > the science behind my improvement(over 160 references).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > or is it that you got a serious infection attended to

> > > > in 2003? What do you think? Maybe both?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Not sure what you're referring to as I've had CFS well

before

> > 2003,

> > > which includes many, but perhaps mostly viral infections,

riddling

> > our

> > > brains and immune systems in any given year. The osteomyelitis

was

> > > first diagnosed back in 1996 and was treated with several

things

> > since

> > > then, with the whey protein being the ultimate suppressor of

> > recurring

> > > inflammation and pain.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Abx were obviously used just prior and long following my oral

> > > surgeries for the osteo, if that's what you're getting at, but

> > > certainly haven't been needed during my RenewPro use over the

last

> > few

> > > years.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > a Carnes

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I didn't get in on the start of this thread, but whoever is thinking of a

dental implant,

please wait for a few months until they have a new material that is more

biocompatible

than the titanium. I believe it's called zirconium, but I'm not sure.

They have of course use this for years in places like Germany and Switzerland

where there are not in the dark ages of using unsaved dental materials like in

the US.

I can get details for you

if you want because I know a clinical nutritionist/research chemist, Dr. Bob

Marshall who is following

this new development closely and has been waiting for it so that he can safely

recommend

dental implants to his clients which he cannot do right now with the titanium

material used.

Du Pre

Poetry website: http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/soareagle/index.html

" By words the mind is winged. " Aristophanes

Website for National Alliance for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis:

http://www.name-us.org

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Can you get whatever details there are for this, please? I'm facing

a choice between implants and a new something-or-other to replace

another failed bridge. I don't know what I'm doing yet, and have

been putting it off.

Thanks ahead of time.

in Champaign IL

.....................................................................

Re: Dental Implants

Posted by: " Du Pre " isaiah40@... myalgicnameus

Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:32 pm (PST)

Hello,

I didn't get in on the start of this thread, but whoever is thinking

of a dental implant, please wait for a few months until they have a

new material that is more biocompatible than the titanium. I believe

it's called zirconium, but I'm not sure.

[...]

I can get details for you if you want because I know a clinical

nutritionist/research chemist, Dr. Bob Marshall who is following this

new development closely and has been waiting for it so that he can

safely recommend dental implants to his clients which he cannot do

right now with the titanium material used.

Du Pre

[Guest guest]

, I am new to this group so may have sent my reply of 01/22nd to

your e-mail address erroneously - that is - perhaps I should have

posted it on the message board as I am attempting to do below: (by

the way, I must admit that while grateful, I am confused re other

dental implant postings because they are addressed to people other

than myself and refer to infections, etc. - infections/decay are not

issues with me - it's all about the remaining weakened structures of

all of my teeth, however, time is of the essence for 10 & 11 as the

attempt to " glue " them temporially in place is " hanging by a

thread " ....I'm only guessing that perhaps there was a string in

progress before I posted my first and only message on January 21st -

suppose I'll learn as I go along -I realize I must somehow have

goofed in the way I completed the registeation form because rather

than my simply being able to access the message board to read

postings, my inbox is now up to 109 e-mails - just can't handle

this, so hope to determine what I should do to rectify this

developement....on the same day, I registered on which is

working just fine, that is, only postings on the message board

without the influx of e-mails in my inbox...Anyway, I am hoping to

read on the " message board " your thoughts on the following:

_____________________________________________________________________

January 22, 2007 - , mere words seem lacking - still, I want you

to know that I very much appreciate your reply to my questions about

dental implants - it is even more significant since you witnessed

what you shared as a dental lab technician (your specific position

makes your feedback grounded in work that no doubt involves volumes

of very helpful information around dental " appliances " and the

materials in each, etc.....)

Now, the teeth involved are numbers 10 and 11 - yes, right in the

upper front.....so, my follow-up question is whether or not I'm

correct to assume that the only alternative to implants would be a

partial denture - if the partial is the only other way to go, I'd

really appreciate all the detailed information you'd be willing to

provide....I'm am totally green about this - don't even u/stand how

partials work.....the only thing I've been told by the dentist is

that he " hates " them because some part(?) of it rubs/irritates the

back side of the gum tissue.....(yet it seems to me that in the

distant past someone I knew in another state had a lower partial

that I don't recall his complaining about ! ! ! do believe food got

caught in it and that he had to remove it at night - is this

correct???? - another concern for me is that most of my teeth while

still functioning with their original crowns are not strong enough

to accommodate anything being attached to them - does this make

sense???)....then I wonder if there is more than one type of

material available and if so, what do you suggest, why?.....the

bottom line is that I'm trying to give this issue my best shot in

terms of my long term dental health in general and especially since

I've been diagnosed with FM, MCS, OI and CFS....of course, if there

are other alternatives I don't know about, I'd very much appreciate

your feedback about them as well....In closing and in an attempt to

provide enough information to assist you in knowing what I'm up

against, all of my life dental health has been of paramount

importance so had dental exams every six months - my view is that I

am simply a person whose teeth have never been particularly strong,

thus the beginning of the crowns. This due to the fact that all of

my upper and lower molars had time been filled over and over until

finally, there remained only " shells " that could no longer support

yet another filling - eventually I finally reached a point at which

all of my teeth have porcelain crowns (of course, the molars have

porcelain-fused-to metal crowns that were necessary to be

successfully seated onto the buildups of what remained when these

shells could no longer be filled)....the bottom line is that I am

not only attempting to make a decision that will be in the best

interest of my health now, but also in the future since I u/stand

the issue of all of my teeth having been weakened during the process

of prepping each for crowns means that I will no doubt be facing

more of this in the future - even before your response, the thought

of having even only one implant was overwhelming and now that I have

a better u/standing of what the future may hold for my other teeth,

this research is even more important - by the way, if a partial is

the only other option, how does it work if in the future other teeth

become involved - does this mean having to incur the expense of

brand new partials each time another tooth must be accommodated....

Hope you have a good day and that someone does something as

meaningful for you as you have for me.....M.C.

PS - sorry for the lenght of this message - this is why I thought it

best to send it to your personal inbox, but don't believe that

worked.....

____________________________________________________________________

>

> > Since I have been diagnosed with CFS, FM, MCS and OI and am

> > apprehensive about introducing any type of foreign matter in my

> > body, I am requesting feedback from anyone who has had an

> > implant (as opposed to a partial plate which I think is the only

> > other alternative)...it is my understanding that the metal used

> > for implants is titanium and that it is often used in non-dental

> > surgeries...still, I am concerned about rejection and/or

> > infection as well as the many other issues PWC are constantly

> > battling, etc.....please be as specific as you care to be when

> > responding....thanks

> >

____________________________________________________________________

> I'm a dental lab tech. In the early nineties, I began seeing

> patients the dentists called " Crazies " who were making weird

claims

> of " metal toxicity " and would come in for appointments carrying

> copies of some " Clifford Biocompatibility test " .

> They would demand that crowns be made with specific alloys, based

on

> these tests.

> The dentists didn't believe a word of it, but would generally

humor

> them anyway, and I would have to go chase down that specific alloy.

> The strange thing was, these patients making unbelievable claims

> kept pointing to their gums that were turning blue below offending

> crowns.

> It seems strange that a psychological-mental illness of " toxicity-

> obsession " could create inflamed gum tissue in just the right

spot,

> but you know how powerful " The Power of the Mind " is. It can do

> anything, right?

> These people would try different materials and implants, and the

> outcomes were very unpredictable.

> There's no official attempt to correlate " rate of implant

failure "

> with people who make these claims of " metal toxicity " , so their

> statistics are blended in with the general population. Even though

> their " numbers " are watered down in this way - the increased rate

of

> failure is frightening, and dentists are starting to wonder why.

> This is undermining their faith in the materials and putting

their

> credibility in question - when their work just inexplicably " goes

> belly up " .

> When you examine ONLY those people who made the claim of

potential

> toxicity, (for me, done by memory alone) the rate is staggering.

> So much so, that my personal choice is to avoid implants.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Penny.

<pennyhoule@...> wrote:

If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy because

> that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic " CFS and

> find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that is? My

> guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope you do.

>

> penny

***Yes, I've conquered my OM and was able to put in a titanium dental

implant after the inflammation went down and complete healing from

surgery had occurred, which not unexpectedly took a long while. The

primary infections cultured out for me with this were strep, e coli

and staph a. and the RenewPro I credit for preventing any overt return

of symptoms and with ongoing suppression of these infections.

***As you hopefully know chronic osteomyelitis in ALL adults cases has

a lot to do with weakened or suppressed immunity in some way, not just

the presence of infections, so in this fact resides the key to the

weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics, no matter how much

or what you've tried to date.

***An interesting thing Dr Garry Gordon points out in his writings is

strep in particular has been shown to take advantage of conditions

like CFS where glutamate excitotoxicity is present. Also, connected

to my left side jaw infections I believe there are nerve tracks to the

corresponding motor cortex of the right side brain where chemical

toxins can readily get stuck in many PWCs and give infections refuge,

particular strep in woman with aluminum retention.

***I see nothing in your comments suggesting that you did anything to

address these specific mechanisms. Also, Payne of Living Well

Today is a good resource you might want to schedule a phone

consutlation with for how to use some of the new RNA products showing

great promise for dealing with many of these and other problems that

arise as result in PWCs, brains and all.

http://www.startlivingwelltoday.com/index.php?option=com_contact & task=view & conta\

ct_id=3 & Itemid=71

***

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 25/01/2007 18:25:06 GMT Standard Time,

pennyhoule@... writes:

Well, you see, . I completely disagree that I have a weakened or

suppressed immune system. All signs point to an immune system in

overdrive, probably because it's been fighting infection for so long.

Naturally an overactive/overworkNaturally an overactive/overwork

inflammation and other issues.

How long have you had your implant and how long ago did you " conquer "

your OM? Trouble is, I've heard this same story so many times just to

have it later retracted, that hearing it again from you doesn't give

me much confidence in your approach.

penny

*****Your over worked Immune system - is in overdrive against the pathogens

but your immune system OVERALL i will undoubtedly be immune comprimised or

" weakened " or whatever else you would like to call it if you have long standing

CFS.

Regards

CS

[Guest guest]

" healing6002 " <healing6002@...> wrote:

>

> , I am new to this group so may have sent my reply of 01/22nd

to your e-mail address erroneously - that is - perhaps I should have

> posted it on the message board as I am attempting to do below: (by

> the way, I must admit that while grateful, I am confused re other

> dental implant postings because they are addressed to people other

> than myself and refer to infections, etc. - infections/decay are

not issues with me - it's all about the remaining weakened structures

of

> all of my teeth,

Sorry, I did get it, but didn't respond.

I'm kind of torn about the answer because when implants work, they're

wonderful - but when they don't....

Well, people wish they had never had them placed - when a large

chunk of the jawbone has to be removed along with it.

Sometimes they just smoulder for a few years before they explode,

leading people to all it a success.

I don't have any statistics on this, only my personal impression,

which is that those people who vaguely describe the toxicities,

reactivities... all the nagging problems that CFSers complain of,

are poor candidates for implants and often regret it.

We're all groping around for answers - and the only type of person I

could trust with a question like " implants or not " would be a

biological dentist who is CFS literate.

My personal choice is not to have implants.

Amazingly enough, when I was in a mold exposure situation a few

years ago - I had abcesses fire up on a number of teeth and I thought

I was completely doomed. I gave up fighting for a normal life and

resumed " Mold Nomadism " and the abcesses cleared up all except for

one tooth, which was too far gone.

-

[Guest guest]

Well, you see, . I completely disagree that I have a weakened or

suppressed immune system. All signs point to an immune system in

overdrive, probably because it's been fighting infection for so long.

Naturally an overactive/overworked immuned system results in massive

inflammation and other issues.

How long have you had your implant and how long ago did you " conquer "

your OM? Trouble is, I've heard this same story so many times just to

have it later retracted, that hearing it again from you doesn't give

me much confidence in your approach.

penny

> If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy

because

> > that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic " CFS

and

> > find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that is?

My

> > guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope you

do.

> >

> > penny

>

>

>

> ***Yes, I've conquered my OM and was able to put in a titanium

dental

> implant after the inflammation went down and complete healing from

> surgery had occurred, which not unexpectedly took a long while. The

> primary infections cultured out for me with this were strep, e coli

> and staph a. and the RenewPro I credit for preventing any overt

return

> of symptoms and with ongoing suppression of these infections.

>

>

>

> ***As you hopefully know chronic osteomyelitis in ALL adults cases

has

> a lot to do with weakened or suppressed immunity in some way, not

just

> the presence of infections, so in this fact resides the key to the

> weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics, no matter how much

> or what you've tried to date.

>

>

>

> ***An interesting thing Dr Garry Gordon points out in his writings

is

> strep in particular has been shown to take advantage of conditions

> like CFS where glutamate excitotoxicity is present. Also, connected

> to my left side jaw infections I believe there are nerve tracks to

the

> corresponding motor cortex of the right side brain where chemical

> toxins can readily get stuck in many PWCs and give infections

refuge,

> particular strep in woman with aluminum retention.

>

>

>

> ***I see nothing in your comments suggesting that you did anything

to

> address these specific mechanisms. Also, Payne of Living

Well

> Today is a good resource you might want to schedule a phone

> consutlation with for how to use some of the new RNA products

showing

> great promise for dealing with many of these and other problems that

> arise as result in PWCs, brains and all.

>

>

>

> http://www.startlivingwelltoday.com/index.php?

option=com_contact & task=view & contact_id=3 & Itemid=71

>

>

>

> ***

>

[Guest guest]

Penny, your immune system, or part of it, goes into overdrive because

the other part is not handling infections well and they have become

chronic. So it *is* immune suppression. Look at the work on G-CSF and

crohn's disease. Stimulating immunity helped resolve the infection and

the crohn's, when researchers thought the opposite and thought people

should be on steroids.

I haven't heard many stories like 's frankly, except an

Asperger's woman doing all the methylation stuff, who was at my

holistic doctors. She used to have chronic infections along with neuro

symptoms and she never gets infections anymore. " All that went away, "

she told me.

> > If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy

> because

> > > that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic " CFS

> and

> > > find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that is?

> My

> > > guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope you

> do.

> > >

> > > penny

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Yes, I've conquered my OM and was able to put in a titanium

> dental

> > implant after the inflammation went down and complete healing from

> > surgery had occurred, which not unexpectedly took a long while. The

> > primary infections cultured out for me with this were strep, e coli

> > and staph a. and the RenewPro I credit for preventing any overt

> return

> > of symptoms and with ongoing suppression of these infections.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***As you hopefully know chronic osteomyelitis in ALL adults cases

> has

> > a lot to do with weakened or suppressed immunity in some way, not

> just

> > the presence of infections, so in this fact resides the key to the

> > weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics, no matter how much

> > or what you've tried to date.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***An interesting thing Dr Garry Gordon points out in his writings

> is

> > strep in particular has been shown to take advantage of conditions

> > like CFS where glutamate excitotoxicity is present. Also, connected

> > to my left side jaw infections I believe there are nerve tracks to

> the

> > corresponding motor cortex of the right side brain where chemical

> > toxins can readily get stuck in many PWCs and give infections

> refuge,

> > particular strep in woman with aluminum retention.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I see nothing in your comments suggesting that you did anything

> to

> > address these specific mechanisms. Also, Payne of Living

> Well

> > Today is a good resource you might want to schedule a phone

> > consutlation with for how to use some of the new RNA products

> showing

> > great promise for dealing with many of these and other problems that

> > arise as result in PWCs, brains and all.

> >

> >

> >

> > http://www.startlivingwelltoday.com/index.php?

> option=com_contact & task=view & contact_id=3 & Itemid=71

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This is why the cfs community goes nowhere. Because we keep looking

at our immune system and NEVER look at the bugs and how freakin'

impossible it is to kill them.

Almost nobody gets it. Even with all the polls and all the news and

all the studies, we ignore it all. These bugs are nearly

indestructible and unless we start fighting them intelligently and

aggressively, they'll just keep getting stronger and stronger until

there's nobody left to fight them, or we get lucky and evolve a

stronger immune system. Nice for the next generation. Unfortunately,

bacteria still evolve a LOT faster than people do.

Everyday on the news there are reports of increasingly resistant

organisms that don't respond to treatment. I saw two such reports

today, and yet everybody on this list thinks their immune system is

at fault. Does nobody think it's important to learn about the real

enemy, the organims? Does nobody realize that organisms kill people?

I don't care how strong the immune system is, bacteria and fungi will

be here long after other life forms have been wiped out.

It just kills me that everyone spends all their time focusing on the

their immune systems while learning nothing whatsoever about

resistant bacteria, which is spreading rapidly, and growing more

deadly by the minute. If pwc really understood these big bad bugs,

they'd stop wasting their time on straw houses and start using bricks

as quickly as possible.

penny

> > > If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy

> > because

> > > > that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic "

CFS

> > and

> > > > find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that

is?

> > My

> > > > guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope

you

> > do.

> > > >

> > > > penny

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Yes, I've conquered my OM and was able to put in a titanium

> > dental

> > > implant after the inflammation went down and complete healing

from

> > > surgery had occurred, which not unexpectedly took a long

while. The

> > > primary infections cultured out for me with this were strep, e

coli

> > > and staph a. and the RenewPro I credit for preventing any overt

> > return

> > > of symptoms and with ongoing suppression of these infections.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***As you hopefully know chronic osteomyelitis in ALL adults

cases

> > has

> > > a lot to do with weakened or suppressed immunity in some way,

not

> > just

> > > the presence of infections, so in this fact resides the key to

the

> > > weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics, no matter how

much

> > > or what you've tried to date.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***An interesting thing Dr Garry Gordon points out in his

writings

> > is

> > > strep in particular has been shown to take advantage of

conditions

> > > like CFS where glutamate excitotoxicity is present. Also,

connected

> > > to my left side jaw infections I believe there are nerve tracks

to

> > the

> > > corresponding motor cortex of the right side brain where

chemical

> > > toxins can readily get stuck in many PWCs and give infections

> > refuge,

> > > particular strep in woman with aluminum retention.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***I see nothing in your comments suggesting that you did

anything

> > to

> > > address these specific mechanisms. Also, Payne of

Living

> > Well

> > > Today is a good resource you might want to schedule a phone

> > > consutlation with for how to use some of the new RNA products

> > showing

> > > great promise for dealing with many of these and other problems

that

> > > arise as result in PWCs, brains and all.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > http://www.startlivingwelltoday.com/index.php?

> > option=com_contact & task=view & contact_id=3 & Itemid=71

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, you are certainly patient and helpful....thanks for all the information

thus far.

The only remaining issue of real importance/concern to me which was not answered

below is the following from my previous e-mail to you:

Now, the teeth involved are numbers 10 and 11 - yes, right in the upper

front.....so, my follow-up question is whether or not I'm correct to assume that

the only alternative to implants would be a partial denture - if the partial is

the only other way to go, I'd really appreciate all detailed information you'd

be willing to provide....I'm am totally green about this - don't even u/stand

how it works.....the only thing I've been told by the dentist is that he " hates "

them because some part(?) of it rubs/irritates the back side of the gum

tissue.....(yet it seems to me that in the distant past someone I knew in

another state had a lower partial that I don't recall his complaining about ! !

!)....then I wonder if there is more than one type of material available and if

so, what do you suggest, why?.....also, if it appears a partial is the way to go

for teeth 10 and 11, what happens if for some reason the partial breaks,

etc.....that is, would this mean starting from scratch

and getting a new one.....then - now that I u/stand about the weakened state of

my other teeth - if some of the others also break, can a person's mouth

accommodate more than one partial???? by now, you can no doubt see how much I

DON'T know.....the bottom line is that I'm trying to give this issue my best

shot in terms of my long term dental health in general and am especially

concerned since I've been diagnosed with FM, MCS, OI and CFS....of course, if

there are other alternatives I don't know about, I'd very much appreciate your

feedback about them as well....

Hope you have a good day and that someone does something as meaningful for you

as you have for me.....M.C.

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

" healing6002 " <healing6002@...> wrote:

>

> , I am new to this group so may have sent my reply of 01/22nd

to your e-mail address erroneously - that is - perhaps I should have

> posted it on the message board as I am attempting to do below: (by

> the way, I must admit that while grateful, I am confused re other

> dental implant postings because they are addressed to people other

> than myself and refer to infections, etc. - infections/decay are

not issues with me - it's all about the remaining weakened structures

of

> all of my teeth,

Sorry, I did get it, but didn't respond.

I'm kind of torn about the answer because when implants work, they're

wonderful - but when they don't....

Well, people wish they had never had them placed - when a large

chunk of the jawbone has to be removed along with it.

Sometimes they just smoulder for a few years before they explode,

leading people to all it a success.

I don't have any statistics on this, only my personal impression,

which is that those people who vaguely describe the toxicities,

reactivities... all the nagging problems that CFSers complain of,

are poor candidates for implants and often regret it.

We're all groping around for answers - and the only type of person I

could trust with a question like " implants or not " would be a

biological dentist who is CFS literate.

My personal choice is not to have implants.

Amazingly enough, when I was in a mold exposure situation a few

years ago - I had abcesses fire up on a number of teeth and I thought

I was completely doomed. I gave up fighting for a normal life and

resumed " Mold Nomadism " and the abcesses cleared up all except for

one tooth, which was too far gone.

-

---------------------------------

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Penny,

It's always been shown that part of the CFS Immune System is in overdrive and

part is just sitting there. (This is why just " boosting " immune system may not

be for us, but modulating is).

It has not been said or known for sure if it is just stuck in overdrive from

previous or is from active infection.

Dr. De Merlier's work shows part that is " chopped up in little pieces " . I

believe that the phenomenon of not catching colds is actually because part of

the immune response has just stopped, not because it is strong/functioning

properly.

I first had classic virulent flu type onset. THen many years of not catching any

normal colds or flus. Then, some colds and flus. Then, the last 3 years, caught

horrific " something " each winter, including pneumonia last year that lasted for

weeks, and , was resistent to antibiotics.

Katrina

> > If you've truly " conquered " your OM then you're one lucky guy

> because

> > > that's hard to do. And yet you say you still have " classic " CFS

> and

> > > find yourself in need of dental implants. I wonder why that is?

> My

> > > guess is you haven't conquered ALL your bugs yet, but I hope you

> do.

> > >

> > > penny

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Yes, I've conquered my OM and was able to put in a titanium

> dental

> > implant after the inflammation went down and complete healing from

> > surgery had occurred, which not unexpectedly took a long while. The

> > primary infections cultured out for me with this were strep, e coli

> > and staph a. and the RenewPro I credit for preventing any overt

> return

> > of symptoms and with ongoing suppression of these infections.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***As you hopefully know chronic osteomyelitis in ALL adults cases

> has

> > a lot to do with weakened or suppressed immunity in some way, not

> just

> > the presence of infections, so in this fact resides the key to the

> > weak link in your treatment strategy and tactics, no matter how much

> > or what you've tried to date.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***An interesting thing Dr Garry Gordon points out in his writings

> is

> > strep in particular has been shown to take advantage of conditions

> > like CFS where glutamate excitotoxicity is present. Also, connected

> > to my left side jaw infections I believe there are nerve tracks to

> the

> > corresponding motor cortex of the right side brain where chemical

> > toxins can readily get stuck in many PWCs and give infections

> refuge,

> > particular strep in woman with aluminum retention.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I see nothing in your comments suggesting that you did anything

> to

> > address these specific mechanisms. Also, Payne of Living

> Well

> > Today is a good resource you might want to schedule a phone

> > consutlation with for how to use some of the new RNA products

> showing

> > great promise for dealing with many of these and other problems that

> > arise as result in PWCs, brains and all.

> >

> >

> >

> > http://www.startlivingwelltoday.com/index.php?

> option=com_contact & task=view & contact_id=3 & Itemid=71

> >

> >

> >

> > ***

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" M. C. Curley " <healing6002@...> wrote:

the only thing I've been told by the dentist is that he " hates " them

because some part(?) of it rubs/irritates the back side of the gum

tissue.....(yet it seems to me that in the distant past someone I

knew in another state had a lower partial that I don't recall his

complaining about ! ! !)....then I wonder if there is more than one

type of material available and if so, what do you suggest,

You picked up on the clues that show the dentist probably isn't very

good at what he does.

I'm just crown-and-bridge, and have very little experience with

partials. But I've been around 'em enough to see that there are a

huge number of materials and construction styles.

You might want to do the Clifford Biocompatibilty test to find which

alloys bother you the least.

Some MCSers have to go through a number of attempts before they find

something they can tolerate.

A biological dentist should know all about this stuff - you need to

find one.

If I was in your situation, my choice would be that removable

partial denture. Sure can't just pull out an implant if it " goes

south " .

-

[Guest guest]

" kattemayo " <kattemayo@...> wrote:

> It's always been shown that part of the CFS Immune System is in

overdrive and part is just sitting there. >

> I first had classic virulent flu type onset. THen many years of not

catching any normal colds or flus. Then, some colds and flus. Then,

the last 3 years, caught horrific " something " each winter, including

pneumonia last year that lasted for weeks, and , was resistent to

antibiotics.

>

> Katrina

Yes, Dr Cheney was on this right from the start.

I remember he drew little diagrams of T Cell programming and would

walk around and wave his arms talking about how the immune system is

going crazy trying to find a virus - TH1 not shifting to

TH2 " Cellular vs. Humoral " and being simultaneously upregulated and

downregulated.

But that is really interesting about catching something every winter!

Seen that a lot in people over the years.

Is the timing somewhat centered on about the end of October?

-

[Guest guest]

>

> This is why the cfs community goes nowhere. Because we keep looking

> at our immune system and NEVER look at the bugs and how freakin'

> impossible it is to kill them.

>

Does nobody think it's important to learn about the real

> enemy, the organims? Does nobody realize that organisms kill people?

If pwc really understood these big bad bugs,

> they'd stop wasting their time on straw houses and start using

bricks

> as quickly as possible.

>

***Hi Penny - Have you ever considered looking at any of the research

that Rich V. is working on?? That makes a lot more sense to me than

blaming dental work. Could it be possible that if you fixed your

methylation block/glutathione deficiency, that your body would be able

to finally let go of the infections you appear to have? It's something

for you to consider :-)

Continually beating us over the head with your theories on bacteria

isn't going to have us changing our views and converting to your line

of thinking.

Take care.

Bernie