Re: Cooked Vegetables - Can They Also Be Used?

[Guest guest]

I haven't tried using cooked vegies, but I can't think of a reason why it

wouldn't work. Certainly other ferments we make DO use cooked stuff (like

cooking milk to make some cheeses, or boiling wort to make beer). I have

seen the recommendation to blanch green beans before fermenting them too.

There are two things I might add though:

1. Cooking vegies kills any bacteria they might have. This can be a recipe

for botulism if the jars are also sterile. So my inclination would be: let

the vegies cool, then add something like blended fresh cabbage, or fresh

cabbage juice. Or kimchi juice, or some starter culture. If you have salt

and maybe some acid, you should be safe though: botulism is mainly an issue

in low-salt low-acid environments.

2. Cooking vegies turns starches to sugar. Which means your ferment might be

more apt to grow yeast than lactobacilli. Again, having salt/acid/starter

culture might help here.

3. You are talking about a mix of fresh and cooked vegies, so I think

neither of the two above comments really applies. My experience with cabbage

is: you can add most anything to a cabbage ferment and it works fine.

Cabbage is designed for fermenting, I think!

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:11 AM, seagrape1954 <seagrape1954@...> wrote:

> Hello, everyone.

>

> I've been an inactive member for a long time and am posting here as a last

> resort since I cannot find the answer anywhere to the question of using

> cooked vegetables along with fresh when doing a vegetable ferment. I hope

> someone will be able give me some guidance.

>

> I am getting ready to start fermenting a cabbage mixture--all raw--and want

> to know if I could add cooked spaghetti squash to the mixture. Spaghetti

> squash, when cooked, can be " shredded " with a fork into separate " strands "

> that resemble spaghetti and I have quite a few spaghetti squashes in my

> garden. Raw, it doesn't " shred " into the individual fiber-like spaghetti

> strands and I would like to cook it first and add this to to the crock.

> Will it ferment along with the rest of the vegetables? Or is using cooked

> foods a no-no when it comes to fermenting?

>

> Thanks for any info and suggestions.

>

> Mitsy

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought botulism required anaerobic environments ie sealed so the air

can't get at them? Like canning. Open topped jars wouldn't be like this

Sally

[Guest guest]

Do you make your ferments in open topped jars? A lot of us don't ... using a

loosely capped jar (like the Koreans do for kimchi) means that CO2 builds up

on top of the ferment, lessening the chance for mold. I think it's close

enough to anaerobic for botulism to grow. It doesn't though, mainly I think

because of the competition from lactobacilli. Clostridium really doesn't

compete all that well. Also it doesn't like salt or acid, both of which are

in most ferments.

However, if one were to put, say, boiled non-salted green beans into a jar

with a loose lid, I think you COULD get botulism. It would probably smell

really awful though: the non-acidic ferments smell mostly like a garbage

pail.

I'm curious though what setup you are using for vegie ferments that is open

to the air? I tried that a couple of times in the past but the flies got to

it ... not a happy time ... I've heard descriptions of people using plates

and weights in crocks, but where I live, that means flies.

What I use is a plastic lid, put on fairly loosely for the first day or two

so gasses can escape but flies can't get in. The Koreans used a clay jar,

with a loose clay lid set on top. Which also works in terms of flies and gas

I think. CO2 is heavier than air, so the resulting ferment is basically

anaerobic.

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:

> I thought botulism required anaerobic environments ie sealed so the air

> can't get at them? Like canning. Open topped jars wouldn't be like this

>

> Sally

>

[Guest guest]

sorry for being misleading, I meant loosely closed, keeps out flies but

not air.

I thought botulism needed canning but this (although only Wikipaedia)

suggests I am wrong and all ferments are open to it

> Foodborne botulism results from contaminated foodstuffs in which C.

> botulinum spores have been allowed to germinate in anaerobic

> conditions. This typically occurs in home-canned food substances and

> fermented uncooked dishes. Given that multiple people often consume

> food from the same source, it is common for more than a single person

> to be affected simultaneously. It takes 3–5 days for the symptoms to

> become apparent.[1]

Sally

[Guest guest]

Thanks, everyone, for all your ideas and input.

I use large, gallon-size pickle jars to ferment the fresh veggies from my garden

and, along with the required salt, I add a tablespoon of milk kefir whey to

inoculate the mixture. Once it is pounded into submission :-) and the juices

have come out, I put a water-filled plastic bag inside the jar to get everything

below the water level. Once fermented, the water bag comes out and I put the

lid on and then put it in the fridge where it keeps for several months.

Since the cooked spaghetti squash comes from the inside of the plant, it is

" sterile " when it gets scraped from the inside of the cooked squash.

Since the consensus seems to be that it won't hurt, and will probably be just

fine, I will try adding the cooked spaghetti squash to the mix, as I think it

will give a nice texture to it.

Mitsy

[Guest guest]

You could use a plastic bag with salt water using a resealable one. If it

leaks, salt water would go into the ferment. It seals in a crock pretty well.

GB

--- In nutrition ,

[Guest guest]

Yeah, botulism is rare in anything except canned foods, and that is mainly

because it just doesn't compete well with other bacteria. Canned food has

most of the other bacteria killed, so it's good ground for clostridium. But

it will grow in any mostly airless environment that is lacking salt, acid,

and competition.

It's a fairly common intestinal infection too, when people are on

antibiotics. Having a sterile gut, the clostridium can take over easily.

That is a different issue though, than botulism toxin.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Sally Eva <bobsallyeva@...> wrote:

> sorry for being misleading, I meant loosely closed, keeps out flies but

> not air.

>

> I thought botulism needed canning but this (although only Wikipaedia)

> suggests I am wrong and all ferments are open to it

>

> > Foodborne botulism results from contaminated foodstuffs in which C.

> > botulinum spores have been allowed to germinate in anaerobic

> > conditions. This typically occurs in home-canned food substances and

> > fermented uncooked dishes. Given that multiple people often consume

> > food from the same source, it is common for more than a single person

> > to be affected simultaneously. It takes 3–5 days for the symptoms to

> > become apparent.[1]

>

> Sally

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>However, if one were to put, say, boiled non-salted green beans into a jar

with a loose lid, I think you COULD get botulism.

Just to clarify, my recipe for a ferment using parboiled green beans, does call

for cabbage also. It's not just green beans. that makes sense, , thanks.

Millie