Re: should I worry about botulism or not?

[Guest guest]

I think there is some info on this at the CDC, and the Ball canning

company has ideas too. When I looked it up some time ago, botulism

events are rather rare and seem to be mostly in canned green beans,

garlic in oil, and fish. Pickles and kraut are acidic enough that

traditionally they were just kept at room temp. Jam, when it goes bad,

generally gets moldy (most sugary things either get moldy or they turn

to wine). Mostly these days though I don't heat-can: I do have an

outside fridge for kraut and kimchi and pickles, and I freeze

everything else.

The clostridium bacteria is pretty wimpy and doesn't compete well with

other bacteria. The problem with canning is that it kills off the

competition so only the clostridium spores survive. If the spores DID

sprout though, you'd be getting some gas. The botulism toxin is

destroyed by heat though, so if you cook the tomatoes or kraut you'd

be ok at any rate. You can always cook your first few jars til you get

more comfortable with the process. I took TEENY little bites of my

first few ferments, since I was really paranoid about eating bacteria

....

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:59 AM, emu742 <emu742@...> wrote:

> If I'm making things like canned tomato's, pickles and sauerkraut, is there

any real need to worry over botulism - or are these acidic enough that its very

difficult to get it?

>

> I hate to feel so paranoid to eat my own canned food but since I am only

learning from the internet (no one in my family or any friends can), I am having

a hard time getting the guts to do this and eat my stuff. I made some pickles

and processed the jars in boiling water for 10 minutes - they properly sealed

(button down in the lid), and its coming on 8 weeks now when they say the flavor

is best and I can open the jar and try them ... they look fine but I'm a little

scared haha. What about jams - or is it just non -acidic canned goods that you

have to worry about? Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice on this

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

So botulism can't really happen in things like pickles or lacto-fermented

sauerkraut because of the salt and acidity? I don't think I'd want to risk

canning things like fish or beans. I will most likely be doing pickles,

tomatoes, fruit and saurkraut. If there is botulism, the lid will pop up because

of the gas produced by it?

Is there a canning book that anyone recommends? I feel like there is way too

much info on the web for me to sort through what I should be doing - I tried

doing it for the pickles but the temps, amount of salt, how far full to fill the

jar, how long to process, etc etc were all over the place so left me feeling a

little less confident about it all.

--- In nutrition ,

[Guest guest]

I would just get the Ball canning book ... it's well researched and been

used forever. They sell it at our hardware store, with the jars (since

they make the jars too). It's probably online at their website too.

And yeah, I'd agree with . Generally if it goes bad, you

know it! If you read the stories of people who DO get botulism,

it's usually " Well, I opened up the jar and it smelled weird,

so I tasted it .... " . Moral of the story: if it smells weird, *don't*

taste it.

I can't really speak to what " can't " happen ... I don't think anyone

wants to be that dogmatic. I can say that people aren't dying

like flies from botulism. It's way more common in water birds

and horses, statistically. There was only one death from

botulism according to this:

http://www.botulismblog.com/2009/06/articles/botulism-information/mmwr-says-botu\

lism-was-responsible-for-one-of-11-outbreak-deaths-in-2006/

And that was from commercial carrot juice that had been pasteurized

and not refrigerated correctly.

There average about 150 cases a year of botulism, but most

are in babies (who can be poisoned by raw honey!) and from wounds.

Basically our usual canning/refrigeration techniques in this

country *work* ... they've been tweaked over the last few

hundred years, so doing what the Ball people say is

a good bet.

Clostridium lives in many people's guts, by the way, so you do

have some immunity to it. When it overgrows in the gut, it is

problematic, which is a good argument for eating live

bacteria and foods like konjac, that feed it's enemies.

And of course I always keep bentonite, konjac, and pepto bismol

on hand. When someone in the family comes down with

food-poisoning symptoms, we dose with all 3 ... so far the

symptoms have gone away quickly every time.

There is a very exact writup of all this at Google books. There

doesn't appear to have been any cases of botulism in kraut.

It does happen sometimes in canned foods with vinegar, but not

where there is vinegar and salt.

http://books.google.com/books?id=r4g-cfeMwBgC & pg=PA199 & lpg=PA199 & dq=botulism+cas\

es+sourkraut & source=bl & ots=CV-YN1Fm9l & sig=98ocFHKqGV0gRhjDVPBCs6GFgAo & hl=en & ei=f\

HvsSpa9H4rasQOjzcz1Aw & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=1 & ved=0CA0Q6AEwAA#v=o\

nepage & q= & f=false

(very long link: but if you go to Google books and search on

" botulism cases sauerkraut "

Here is an interesting writeup by a university though. Those people

also research their stuff well. It says you can store fully fermented

dill pickles in the jar for up to 6 months ... I've heard of people

doing that with kraut too. No hot water bath at all. THAT strikes me

as safer, and the food would taste better too. The kraut or pickles

will eventually break down via enzymes and get " mushy " , but 6 months

is a goodly amount of time and will get you through the winter.

http://msuextension.org/publications/HomeHealthandFamily/MT200902HR.pdf

My great-grandma kept her kraut in a barrel on her porch, my mom says.

The kids just opened the barrel and took handfuls. So it must have

kept very well. And people on these lists have said the same thing:

they just keep the jars on the shelf in their garage. If the

fermentation has mostly stopped, the risk of breakage is low, but the

lids won't be " sealed " ... and with a " live " ferment you don't want it

sealed really (leave the metal ring on loosely, or use plastic lids).

With the ferment live there won't be a vacuum either. Just nice live

kraut and pickles!

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 6:35 AM, emu742 <emu742@...> wrote:

> So botulism can't really happen in things like pickles or lacto-fermented

sauerkraut because of the salt and acidity? I don't think I'd want to risk

canning things like fish or beans. I will most likely be doing pickles,

tomatoes, fruit and saurkraut. If there is botulism, the lid will pop up because

of the gas produced by it?

>

> Is there a canning book that anyone recommends? I feel like there is way too

much info on the web for me to sort through what I should be doing - I tried

doing it for the pickles but the temps, amount of salt, how far full to fill the

jar, how long to process, etc etc were all over the place so left me feeling a

little less confident about it all.

>

> --- In nutrition ,

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for all the info and suggestions, I think I'm a little more

confident about it all now, and will look into that book as well, thanks again!

--- In nutrition ,

[Guest guest]

--- In nutrition ,

[Guest guest]

Which is better the Ball Blue Book or the Ball Complete Book of Home Preserving?

I usually try to get these at my library but doesn't look like it carries either

unfortunately, so which is best to spend the $ on?

[Guest guest]

The Blue Book is the one I have. I don't know about the other.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:21 AM, emu742 <emu742@...> wrote:

> Which is better the Ball Blue Book or the Ball Complete Book of Home

Preserving? I usually try to get these at my library but doesn't look like it

carries either unfortunately, so which is best to spend the $ on?

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

You can also get an interlibrary loan. but it may take awhile for it to get to

you.

GB

>

> Which is better the Ball Blue Book or the Ball Complete Book of Home

Preserving? I usually try to get these at my library but doesn't look like it

carries either unfortunately, so which is best to spend the $ on?

>

[Guest guest]

This is a custom dependent on the location of where you live. An example:

You go to your library to check out the book BALL COMPLETE BOOK OF HOME

PRESERVING so that you can research it and decide if such is a book you wish to

purchase and use, but your library does not own that book. Many libraries (but

not all) are in a system that allows the library which does not own a specific

title to borrow it from a sister library, it arrives for you at the library you

are a member of, and you are able to use it.

This act of one library assisting another library so that their patron may

borrow a book outside district is called an interlibrary loan.

Hope this helps. Cheerio.

* * * * * * * * *

>

> I dont understand the connection between botulism and the interlibrary loan?

Could anyone clarify?

>

>

> Regards,

>

> mdw.