Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 p.s. - It might make a difference in suggesting a culprit to know that I started feeling better shortly after a relatively solid bowel movement (no blood) and some fresh air. > > The other day after finishing off the last of a large batch > of pinto beans made from dry beans, I became violently ill. > They had been in the fridge for 3-4 days and had become a > little slimy, but I didn't want to waste them. D'oh! What > bacteria do you suppose was responsible for my sudden (5-10 > minutes after consumption) nausea and trip to the bathroom? > [Complete with sweats, dizziness, the works] Has anyone > else experienced this sort of reaction? I think working w/ > fermented foods can sometimes make one remiss in taking the > necessary precautions with regard to standard foods that > have sat for a while. > > > Thanks, > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 The very short incubation time (5-10 min) indicates some sort of toxin rather than a bacterial infection. Even so, the shortest acting bacterial toxins I know (Staphylococcus aureus and Bacillus cereus) usually take 4-24 hours to show effect. Could it have been something you ate a day or 2 earlier that just happened to kick in after you ate the beans? Were you feeling well prior to eating the beans? If you ate them before without bad effect, you might just have to chalk it up to " something " that formed in the beans after cooking and during storage that didn't agree with you. Here's part of a CDC report from the MMWR (Morbidity & Mortality Weekly Report) related to some outbreaks in school children with very short onset times. As you can see, lot's of possibilities...hard to be sure! (Very probably more than you wanted to know!!) " The short incubation periods [5 - 25min] suggest that a preformed toxin or other short-acting agent was the cause of illness. Possible agents include bacterial toxins (e.g., Staphylococcus aureus enterotoxin and Bacillus cereus emetic toxin); mycotoxins (e.g., deoxynivalenol {DON}, acetyl-deoxynivalenol, and other tricothecenes), trace metals, nonmetal ions (e.g., fluorine, bromine, and iodine), plant toxins (e.g., alkaloids such as solanines, opiates, ipecac, and ergot; lectins such as phytohemagglutinin; and glycosides), pesticides (e.g., pyrethrins, organophosphates, and chlorinated hydrocarbons), food additives (e.g., bromate, glutamate, nitrite, salicylate, sorbate, and sulfite), detergents (e.g., anionic detergents and quaternary amines), fat-soluble vitamins, spoilage factors (e.g., biogenic amines, putrefaction, and free fatty acids), or an unknown toxin. Mass sociogenic illness is an unlikely explanation based on the number of different sites where outbreaks have been rep orted over a short interval and the link to only two companies. B. cereus emetic toxin and S. aureus enterotoxin are common causes of food poisoning, but headache is not usually a prominent feature, and most outbreaks traced to these toxins have incubation periods of 2-4 hours, which is longer than observed in these outbreaks (1,2). Food samples from five outbreaks were negative for B. cereus and S. aureus by culture and toxin analysis; testing from these same outbreaks for alkaloids, biogenic amines, and pesticides also did not identify the causative agent. Some metals, such as cadmium, copper, tin, and zinc, can irritate mucosal membranes and cause gastrointestinal illness after short incubation periods; however, only elemental aluminum was mildly elevated in the burrito samples, and there is no evidence that it causes these symptoms (3,4). Several plant toxins, such as phytohemagglutinin, may survive cooking and cause gastrointestinal symptoms; however, previous outbreaks associated with phytohemagglutinin have been linked to red kidney beans and not pinto beans (5). Outbreaks with symptoms and incubation periods similar to those described in this report have occurred in China and India, where illness has been linked to consumption of products made with grains contaminated with fungi. These fungi produce heat-stable tricothecene mycotoxins called vomitoxin (6). In China, 35 outbreaks affecting 7818 persons during 1961-1985 were attributed to consumption of foods made with moldy grain (7). Corn and wheat samples collected during two outbreaks had higher levels of DON than those collected at other times. In India in 1987, 97 persons consumed wheat products following heavy rains (8). DON and other tricothecene mycotoxins were detected in the implicated wheat products, and extracted toxins caused vomiting in laboratory tests on puppies (8). High doses of DON are known to cause vomiting in pigs (9). Laboratory testing from burrito samples from some of the U.S. outbreaks in this report detected DON within the acceptable FDA advisory level of 1 ppm fo r finished wheat products (10). However, the possibility remains that a mycotoxin is the cause. " http://iier.isciii.es/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056731.htm -------------- Original message -------------- From: " " <truepatriot@...> > The other day after finishing off the last of a large batch > of pinto beans made from dry beans, I became violently ill. > They had been in the fridge for 3-4 days and had become a > little slimy, but I didn't want to waste them. D'oh! What > bacteria do you suppose was responsible for my sudden (5-10 > minutes after consumption) nausea and trip to the bathroom? > [Complete with sweats, dizziness, the works] Has anyone > else experienced this sort of reaction? I think working w/ > fermented foods can sometimes make one remiss in taking the > necessary precautions with regard to standard foods that > have sat for a while. > > > Thanks, > - > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I don't think anyone can tell without a bacteria culture and a microscope, but the common culprit is Listeria. But 5-10 minutes is too fast for a bacteria to make you ill. I think what you were experiencing is your body purging you of something it sensed it didn't like. Which could be bacteria protein coats ... or toxins produced by the bacteria. Or lectins that are naturally in the beans. If the beans were undercooked, the cooking process actually increases the lectin content and they can make people very ill. The " lectin poisoning " passes quickly (unlike most bacterial stuff). The way to avoid lectins is to 1) use fresh beans 2) soak them a day before using (and discard the soaking water) 3) cook very, very thoroughly (they should not be at all crunchy). The lectins are quite toxic: they are like the ricin in castor beans, they make your blood cells clump. So even if you don't get sick they can make you feel " not up to par " . But whatever it was, your body acted quickly and it sounds like you recovered fast! I think people who eat a lot of fermented foods don't get food poisoning easily: the gut is protected by a nice healthy colony of bacteria. -- Heidi > The other day after finishing off the last of a large batch of pinto beans made from dry beans, I became violently ill. They had been in the fridge for 3-4 days and had become a little slimy, but I didn't want to waste them. D'oh! What bacteria do you suppose was responsible for my sudden (5-10 minutes after consumption) nausea and trip to the bathroom? [Complete with sweats, dizziness, the works] Has anyone else experienced this sort of reaction? I think working w/ fermented foods can sometimes make one remiss in taking the necessary precautions with regard to standard foods that have sat for a while. Thanks, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Thank you all for helping me solve this mystery! I was focusing on bacteria, but it was probably more likely a toxin, to include possibly the lectin itself. I have done some searching on this, based on everyone's comments, and it seems I may have cooked the beans inadequately. I soaked them overnight, rinsed and supplied fresh water, brought to a boil, and then immediately reduced to a simmer for three hours. This is, apparently, a big no-no. They should be boiled for at least 15 minutes before proceeding: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Emow/chap43.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3588302 Both of these sites discuss the rapid onset and (often) rapid recovery from such poisoning, though it can be quite dangerous. I agree with you, Heidi, that my gut flora did a noble job in helping me get back to normal so quickly. Thanks again, - www.zenpawn.com/vegblog > > > I don't think anyone can tell without a bacteria > culture and a microscope, but the common culprit > is Listeria. But 5-10 minutes is too fast for a > bacteria to make you ill. I think what you were > experiencing is your body purging you of something > it sensed it didn't like. Which could be bacteria protein > coats ... or toxins produced by the bacteria. > > Or lectins that are naturally in the beans. If the beans > were undercooked, the cooking process actually > increases the lectin content and they can make people > very ill. The " lectin poisoning " passes quickly (unlike > most bacterial stuff). > > The way to avoid lectins is to 1) use fresh beans > 2) soak them a day before using (and discard > the soaking water) 3) cook very, > very thoroughly (they should not be at all crunchy). > > The lectins are quite toxic: they are like the ricin > in castor beans, they make your blood cells clump. > So even if you don't get sick they can make you feel > " not up to par " . > > But whatever it was, your body acted quickly and it > sounds like you recovered fast! I think people who > eat a lot of fermented foods don't get food poisoning > easily: the gut is protected by a nice healthy colony > of bacteria. > > -- Heidi > > > > > The other day after finishing off the last of a large batch > of pinto beans made from dry beans, I became violently ill. > They had been in the fridge for 3-4 days and had become a > little slimy, but I didn't want to waste them. D'oh! What > bacteria do you suppose was responsible for my sudden (5-10 > minutes after consumption) nausea and trip to the bathroom? > [Complete with sweats, dizziness, the works] Has anyone > else experienced this sort of reaction? I think working w/ > fermented foods can sometimes make one remiss in taking the > necessary precautions with regard to standard foods that > have sat for a while. > > Thanks, > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I should probably add that I inadvertantly gave lectin poisoning to one of my kids ... it was from Anasazi beans too, which are one of the least toxic! And you are right, " undercooking " is even worse than not cooked at all, the toxin increases somehow. Maybe the bacteria can multiply the toxicity too, somehow. These days I use the pressure cooker on beans. The temp gets up to 250, which isn't really that outrageous, and it does a fine job of breaking everything down. I still soak them etc. too. The pressure cooker cooks them in, like, 6 minutes, and they are far more digestible. -- Heidi > Both of these sites discuss the rapid onset and (often) rapid recovery from such poisoning, though it can be quite dangerous. I agree with you, Heidi, that my gut flora did a noble job in helping me get back to normal so quickly. Thanks again, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 I've started pressure " canning " dried beans... it's been extremely convenient for me to have jars of them sitting on my pantry shelf. I can do a large quantity at one time so it saves me not oly time but also only one clean up. The high temperature used in pressure canning kills most bacteria... I've even started pressure canning some meats such as chicken, the canning temperature is too high for even bird flu to survive. > > The other day after finishing off the last of a large batch > of pinto beans made from dry beans, I became violently ill. > They had been in the fridge for 3-4 days and had become a > little slimy, but I didn't want to waste them. D'oh! What > bacteria do you suppose was responsible for my sudden (5-10 > minutes after consumption) nausea and trip to the bathroom? > [Complete with sweats, dizziness, the works] Has anyone > else experienced this sort of reaction? I think working w/ > fermented foods can sometimes make one remiss in taking the > necessary precautions with regard to standard foods that > have sat for a while. > > > Thanks, > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.