Re: raw apple cider vinegar in kraut?

[Guest guest]

> Heidi recommends adding a dash of vinegar to veggies to make it more

> acidic. So if I use raw vinegars will that add bugs I don't want or mess

> with the growth of bugs I do? I'm just curious. I keep forgetting to put

> it in in the first place anyway.

>

> Jasmin

I think the bugs in vinegar are not the

usual lactobacilli you want in kimchi: the vinegar

bacteria is acetobacter. But it doesn't seem

to interfere with anything: acetobacter eats

ethanol, which is in low supply in kimchi.

As for having enough lactobacilli ... it's all

over the place, and unless you clean

everything with chlorine bleach and irradiate

the cabbage, it's there! You just need a little

salt or acid to inhibit the slimy stinky competitors.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>I think the bugs in vinegar are not the

>usual lactobacilli you want in kimchi: the vinegar

>bacteria is acetobacter. But it doesn't seem

>to interfere with anything: acetobacter eats

>ethanol, which is in low supply in kimchi.

Also, the extra acid (vinegar is acetic acid) will help kill off the

undesirable bugs. I use a little cider vinegar when making tempeh, for

this purpose.

>As for having enough lactobacilli ... it's all

>over the place, and unless you clean

>everything with chlorine bleach and irradiate

>the cabbage, it's there! You just need a little

>salt or acid to inhibit the slimy stinky competitors.

And in fact, the good bugs are there in quite small numbers, but will

cheerfully multiply really quickly to take over the fermentation - first

the Leuconostoc spp, then the Lactobacilli and others. See the chart

Deanna posted here yesterday:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirkraut.html#microbevolution

And the tables here for 1998 Class Results (microbial counts for

sauerkraut over a month of fermentation) at bottom of page:

http://www.splammo.net/foodapplmicro/applkraut.html

On this last link, you can really get a feel for just how few of the

" good " bacteria there are compared with the " others " - many million

microbes per ml with only a few thousand lactic acid bacteria per ml at

start.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" In wine there is wisdom,

In beer there is strength,

In water there is bacteria. " - German proverb

[Guest guest]

Ross McKay wrote:

> Heidi wrote:

>

> >I think the bugs in vinegar are not the

> >usual lactobacilli you want in kimchi: the vinegar

> >bacteria is acetobacter. But it doesn't seem

> >to interfere with anything: acetobacter eats

> >ethanol, which is in low supply in kimchi.

>

> Also, the extra acid (vinegar is acetic acid) will help kill off the

> undesirable bugs. I use a little cider vinegar when making tempeh, for

> this purpose.

Exactly! That's why I use it. Any acid would do, but vinegar is easy.

Kimchi juice is good too.

>

> >As for having enough lactobacilli ... it's all

> >over the place, and unless you clean

> >everything with chlorine bleach and irradiate

> >the cabbage, it's there! You just need a little

> >salt or acid to inhibit the slimy stinky competitors.

>

> And in fact, the good bugs are there in quite small numbers, but will

> cheerfully multiply really quickly to take over the fermentation - first

> the Leuconostoc spp, then the Lactobacilli and others. See the chart

> Deanna posted here yesterday:

>

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirkraut.html#microbevolution

You see, THAT is why I like these groups! They find out stuff

like that!

I don't know the exact numbers of each bacteria,

but when I was making " homebrew " beer a lot,

the big ENEMY was Lactobacilli. I mean, they

would take over a batch of brew quick! They were

everywhere! You had to do all sorts of cleansing

to get rid of the beggers ... because they would

rob your beer of *alcohol* and also make it *go sour*

faster.

Oh, I'm a turncoat ... now I'm breeding them

on purpose ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Many of the Leuconostoc spp are slime-producers. I suspect that if you ever had

a batch of fermented veggies come out that way, something caused the ferment to

" stick " before the Lactobacilli could take over very well.

And yeah, unless you are interested in lambic-style beers, Lactobacilli are not

your friend for those type of beverages

> And in fact, the good bugs are there in quite small numbers, but will

> cheerfully multiply really quickly to take over the fermentation - first

> the Leuconostoc spp, then the Lactobacilli and others. See the chart

> Deanna posted here yesterday:

>

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirkraut.html#microbevolution

You see, THAT is why I like these groups! They find out stuff

like that!

I don't know the exact numbers of each bacteria,

but when I was making " homebrew " beer a lot,

the big ENEMY was Lactobacilli. I mean, they

would take over a batch of brew quick! They were

everywhere! You had to do all sorts of cleansing

to get rid of the beggers ... because they would

rob your beer of *alcohol* and also make it *go sour*

faster.

Oh, I'm a turncoat ... now I'm breeding them

on purpose ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>...

>I don't know the exact numbers of each bacteria,

>but when I was making " homebrew " beer a lot,

>the big ENEMY was Lactobacilli. I mean, they

>would take over a batch of brew quick! They were

>everywhere! You had to do all sorts of cleansing

>to get rid of the beggers ... because they would

>rob your beer of *alcohol* and also make it *go sour*

>faster.

I took that approach across to cider too - sterilise everything, wash /

scrub / pasteurise the juice, pitch a wine yeast. But I've learnt now to

just have everything clean, and let what's on / in the apples guide the

fermentation. There's so much simple sugars in apple juice that the

yeast just chomp it up before the LAB get much of a chance. And then,

the LAB come along afterwards and convert the harsh malic acid to lactic

acid for you too!

>Oh, I'm a turncoat ... now I'm breeding them

>on purpose ...

In company...

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" It's not the right time to be sober,

Now that the idiots have taken over " - NOFX

[Guest guest]

Sea Orca wrote:

> Many of the Leuconostoc spp are slime-producers. I suspect that if you

> ever had a batch of fermented veggies come out that way, something

> caused the ferment to " stick " before the Lactobacilli could take over

> very well.

>

> And yeah, unless you are interested in lambic-style beers, Lactobacilli

> are not your friend for those type of beverages

>

>

My kefir-beers are all lambic, obviously! What amazes me

is I used to pay rather high prices for " lambic beer " and

now I get them for the price of an extra kefir grain.

But what also amazes me is ... why did I spend all

that time sterilizing bottles ?????

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Sea Orca / wrote:

>Many of the Leuconostoc spp are slime-producers. I suspect that

>if you ever had a batch of fermented veggies come out that way,

>something caused the ferment to " stick " before the Lactobacilli

>could take over very well.

Aha! Interesting. And it would also be not very acidic (low tolerance

for the acid that they themselves produce).

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

Fermentd Vegtables are made with Brine solution ( that is salt based

solution). A lot of the comercial pickling products are made with

vinegar. Vinegar affects both good and bad bacteria to some degree. So

I am not really sure about adding vinegar at all.

Once the fermentation ends, I like to keep my fermented vegies in brine

solution in the fridge (sterlised jars) and not in Vinegar..because I

believe the vinegar will degrade the probiotic content of the ferment.

Shop bought Vinegar based pickles have Zero probiotic content.

>

> Heidi recommends adding a dash of vinegar to veggies to make it more

acidic. So if I use raw vinegars will that add bugs I don't want or

mess with the growth of bugs I do? I'm just curious. I keep forgetting

to put it in in the first place anyway.

>

> Jasmin

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria and their

favorite temperature etc

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting them?

Maybe use a starter instead?

And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will only keep

away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the vinegar-bacteria will

themselves die quickly as there is virtually no sugar in greens?

And about myself:

Hello, I am Tove from Norway, woman, 41, made myself healthy by eating virtually

nothing but fermented cabbage and meat + taking vitamins. Nice to find this

list!

[Guest guest]

Tove Stenersen wrote:

> This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> and their favorite temperature etc

>

> http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

>

> I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> them? Maybe use a starter instead?

I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

other things!

In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

all that kale-juice.

> And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> sugar in greens?

Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi

I use about the same amount of salt as your grandma, I use 2.5% brine

solution, and yours is 3% approx.

But I dont use vinegar, and I dont crush the vegtables. I use whole vegtables

like peppers, aubergines, onions, carrots ( chopped), whole garlic etc.

I think adding vinegar makes it taste nicer, but will kill off some of the

good and bad bacteria...in any case, the whole process of lactic acid

fermentation produces alot of acids in the ferment, so why add the vinegar?

Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

Tove Stenersen wrote:

> This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> and their favorite temperature etc

>

> http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

>

> I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> them? Maybe use a starter instead?

I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

other things!

In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

all that kale-juice.

> And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> sugar in greens?

Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

kefir king wrote:

> Heidi

> I use about the same amount of salt as your grandma, I use 2.5% brine

> solution, and yours is 3% approx.

Except it also depends on the kind of salt! Kosher salt is like

twice as " fluffy " as table salt. I have no idea what kind of

salt she used. It was my great-grandma, so it would be the late 1800's.

> But I dont use vinegar, and I dont crush the vegtables. I use whole

> vegtables like peppers, aubergines, onions, carrots ( chopped), whole

> garlic etc.

I don't crush those kinds of vegies. Just the greens mix.

> I think adding vinegar makes it taste nicer, but will kill off some of

> the good and bad bacteria...in any case, the whole process of lactic

> acid fermentation produces alot of acids in the ferment, so why add the

> vinegar?

I find that for some foods, it's " safer " . Cukes especially. If

the ferment doesn't go right, you get these soft mushy pickles.

Also, for those that don't want to use so much salt, vinegar

is a good alternative. But if you don't like the

idea of a " foreign " acid, you can use kimchi or kraut

juice from the last batch ... that has the right bacteria

AND the acid.

My vinegar tastes VERY good though. It's homemade garlic wine

vinegar. I don't think vinegar will kill off lactobacilli

at all, and it helps them compete and get going faster (LAB

do well in acid, that's why they make it ...).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi

Maybe you could try umeboshi vinegar in your pickles. This vinegar is made

from Japanese ume plum and salt. Great taste.

June Ka

Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

Tove Stenersen wrote:

> This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> and their favorite temperature etc

>

> http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

>

> I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> them? Maybe use a starter instead?

I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

other things!

In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

all that kale-juice.

> And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> sugar in greens?

Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Huh. I just bought some of those plums ... I have not

got up the courage to try them yet though!

I do like plums though.

-- Heidi

Ka Lim wrote:

> Heidi

> Maybe you could try umeboshi vinegar in your pickles. This vinegar is

> made from Japanese ume plum and salt. Great taste.

> June Ka

>

> Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

>

> Tove Stenersen wrote:

> > This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> > and their favorite temperature etc

> >

> > http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

> >

> > I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> > them? Maybe use a starter instead?

>

> I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

> over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

> Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

> other things!

>

> In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

> which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

> all that kale-juice.

>

> > And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> > only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> > vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> > sugar in greens?

>

> Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

> as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

> My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

> per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

>

> -- Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you like very salty and sour, you;ll like them! I discovered them when I was

doing macrobiotics, so I always associate them with rice balls, but I'm sure

there's lots of other creative uses.

-------------- Original message --------------

From: Heidi <heidis@...>

Huh. I just bought some of those plums ... I have not

got up the courage to try them yet though!

I do like plums though.

-- Heidi

Ka Lim wrote:

> Heidi

> Maybe you could try umeboshi vinegar in your pickles. This vinegar is

> made from Japanese ume plum and salt. Great taste.

> June Ka

>

> Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

>

> Tove Stenersen wrote:

> > This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> > and their favorite temperature etc

> >

> > http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

> >

> > I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> > them? Maybe use a starter instead?

>

> I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

> over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

> Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

> other things!

>

> In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

> which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

> all that kale-juice.

>

> > And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> > only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> > vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> > sugar in greens?

>

> Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

> as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

> My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

> per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

>

> -- Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can I try the umeboshi plum in my kefir water grains? or Kombucha?

Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

Huh. I just bought some of those plums ... I have not

got up the courage to try them yet though!

I do like plums though.

-- Heidi

Ka Lim wrote:

> Heidi

> Maybe you could try vinegar in your pickles. This vinegar is

> made from Japanese ume plum and salt. Great taste.

> June Ka

>

> Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

>

> Tove Stenersen wrote:

> > This is easy to read and gives a good overview of the various bacteria

> > and their favorite temperature etc

> >

> > http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

> >

> > I wonder if it really is necessary to crush the greens before fermenting

> > them? Maybe use a starter instead?

>

> I crush them so they fit in the jar tightly. You CAN just pour brine

> over them, but then you get a lot of water and not many greens.

> Which is good when you want lots of kimchi juice for

> other things!

>

> In some cultures they leave the greens out to wilt,

> which does the same thing. But I like the taste of

> all that kale-juice.

>

> > And from the above, i would guess that the vinegar to start with will

> > only keep away some of the slime-producing bacteria, while the

> > vinegar-bacteria will themselves die quickly as there is virtually no

> > sugar in greens?

>

> Right, or at least that's my experience. It is NOT the same

> as your average commercial pickle, which is ALL vinegar.

> My great-grandma's recipe for pickles was 2T salt and 2T vinegar

> per qt of boiled/cooled water, poured over cukes in the jar.

>

> -- Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 3/17/06, Mrs.Audrey J. Chinn <Onexpresso@...> wrote:

>

> Can I try the umeboshi plum in my kefir water grains? or Kombucha?

>

[Mike] I wouldn't recommend this because its acids may interfere with those

ferments! But as long as you keep a backup reserve culture of your scobies

when doing experiments like this, you have nothing to lose!

[Guest guest]

Yes, I figured this actualy, but wanted to ask and be sure. Thanks

e: On 3/17/06, Mrs.Audrey J. Chinn <Onexpresso@...> wrote:

>

> Can I try the umeboshi plum in my kefir water grains? or Kombucha?

>

[Mike] I wouldn't recommend this because its acids may interfere with those

ferments! But as long as you keep a backup reserve culture of your scobies

when doing experiments like this, you have nothing to lose!