Re: Re: Best sources of Vitamin B12

[Guest guest]

Dominic N. Anfiteatro wrote:

> Heidi, certain strains of yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiea e.g., can

> reproduce sexually, or asexually. The sexual reproduction is not unlike

> the animal queendom [in that it takes two organisms to tango]. Most

> strains of bacteria reproduce through binary fission... they split

> leaving two daughter cells.

That must be what was dangling around in my unconscious!

> Since discussing Vit B-12, I'm trying to locate a citation among text in

> the interest of this thread. It explains the production of biologically

> active Vit B-12 in kefir-whey with the introduction of a specific strain

> Vit B-12 producing bacteria [i can not recall the propionic bacteria

> strain off hand], with high yields of Vit B-12. I recall reading this

> and as mentioned that kefir-whey produced the best results in comparison

> to other media. I'll post it when I locate the abstract.

I'd love to see it! What I DO know is that when

I drink my kefir-beer I get the same symptoms I get

when taking a lot of B vites (flushing, feeling hot,

tons of energy). I drink the yeast with the beer ...

kinda shake it all up and swig it down. But I have

no idea WHICH B vites are in there. It might even

vary depending on the ferment. Kefir-beer made with

apple juice works the best for me.

I don't get those symptoms from plain yeast-beer though,

even eating the yeast. I think kefir produces some

good stuff, way beyond what plain yeast does. It's

worth noting that most beer and cider in the past

was at least partially lacto-fermented by default,

and people regarded it as very healthy. The " apple

a day " saying referred to hard cider, not raw apples!

http://www.sallys-place.com/beverages/beer/hard_cider.htm

When Washington ran for the Virginia House of Burgesses in 1758, his

campaign expenses included eight quarts of " Cider Royal, " and by 1767, the per

capita consumption of cider in Massachusetts was 1.14 barrels! , in

1796, wrote in his diary about the virtues of cider, reporting that drinking a

tankard of cider each morning put his stomach at ease and alleviated gas. Hence,

" An apple a day ... " Jefferson made cider at Monticello and served it at

meals regularly.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>... It's worth noting that most beer and cider in the past

>was at least partially lacto-fermented by default,

>and people regarded it as very healthy. The " apple

>a day " saying referred to hard cider, not raw apples!

http://www.thorogoods.com.au/cider/subpage?p=6#part7

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" In wine there is wisdom,

In beer there is strength,

In water there is bacteria. " - German proverb

[Guest guest]

Dominic N. Anfiteatro wrote:

>...

>Since discussing Vit B-12, I'm trying to locate a citation among text in

>the interest of this thread. It explains the production of biologically

>active Vit B-12 in kefir-whey with the introduction of a specific strain

>Vit B-12 producing bacteria [i can not recall the propionic bacteria

>strain off hand], with high yields of Vit B-12. I recall reading this

>and as mentioned that kefir-whey produced the best results in comparison

>to other media. I'll post it when I locate the abstract.

Here's the nearest thing I could find related to kefir and production

(or not) of B12. It seems to be very dependent on the specific

microorganism mix in kefir grains, and not all kefir grains have the

particular bacteria required. Also, what you are fermenting with kefir

grains seems to have an impact.

From " Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods " , Farnsworth et al:

" ... An early study of the vitamin B12 content of kefir indicated that

both during the fermentation and maturation stages, the vitamin B12

content went down. Alm[1] used commercially available grains to produce

kefir that had increased folic acid content compared to the starting

milk but decreased concentrations of vitamin B6, vitamin B12, and

biotin. ... "

" Kneifel and Mayer[2], using ten different sources of grains collected

from Austrian households, reported increases of ... vitamin B12 (5/10),

and folic acid (7/10) of laboratory-prepared kefir compared to the

starting cows' milk. ... goats' milk had the largest percent loss of

thiamin, riboflavin, vitamin B12... The source of milk may influence the

growth of particular microorganisms which, in turn, determine the final

vitamin content of kefir. "

[1] Alm, l., Effect of fermentation on B-vitamin content of milk in

Sweden, J. Dairy Sci., 65, 353-359, 1980.

[2] Kneifel, W. and Mayer, h.k., Vitamin profiles of kefirs made from

milks of different species, Int. J. Food Sci. Technol., 26, 423-428,

1991.

Bear in mind that vitamin B12 by itself is useless, we also require

folate (a.k.a. folic acid, vitamin B9, which, incidentally, is likely to

be manufactured in kefir).

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

Cool!

It's interesting how the claims tend to say the same

thing. Also that the things they claim are the ones

that tend to be brought about by good probiotics ...

either the cider has the good bacteria, or it feeds them?

Esp. this bit:

" cider excites the stomach, strengthens digestion and infallibly frees the

kidneys and bladder from breeding the gravel stone "

Now they are thinking these days that kidney stones

come about when a person does not have the bacteria

they need to digest oxalic acid. If that bacteria

happens to exist in cider, then drinking

cider would replenish it?

I've been wondering WHERE humans get that bacteria ...

most people do have it, so it must be pretty common.

I'm guessing it grows in kimchi too, since

greens typically do have some oxalic acid.

-- Heidi

Ross McKay wrote:

> Heidi wrote:

>

> >... It's worth noting that most beer and cider in the past

> >was at least partially lacto-fermented by default,

> >and people regarded it as very healthy. The " apple

> >a day " saying referred to hard cider, not raw apples!

>

> http://www.thorogoods.com.au/cider/subpage?p=6#part7

> --

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>It's interesting how the claims tend to say the same

>thing. Also that the things they claim are the ones

>that tend to be brought about by good probiotics ...

>either the cider has the good bacteria, or it feeds them?

Traditionally fermented cider, beer, wines, milks (e.g. koumiss, kefir)

all had lactic acid bacteria still present and active. As you've pointed

out here before, LAB are *everywhere* and only need the right conditions

to get a fermentation going; in modern beer brewing, you need to

sanitise *everything* to avoid the beer going sour from LAB

fermentation.

In cider, certain Lactobacillus bacteria help in another way - reducing

the harsh malic acid in the cider and converting it to lactic acid.

More good information on cider here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/

>I've been wondering WHERE humans get that bacteria ...

>most people do have it, so it must be pretty common.

>I'm guessing it grows in kimchi too, since

>greens typically do have some oxalic acid.

It seems that humans have been fermenting foods with LAB longer than

we've been cooking (i.e. before we even became Homo sapiens...)

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/380S/F2

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Darwin's rolling over in his coffin,

'cos the fittest are surviving much less often " - NOFX

[Guest guest]

>

> >I've been wondering WHERE humans get that bacteria ...

> >most people do have it, so it must be pretty common.

> >I'm guessing it grows in kimchi too, since

> >greens typically do have some oxalic acid.

>

> It seems that humans have been fermenting foods with LAB longer than

> we've been cooking (i.e. before we even became Homo sapiens...)

>

> http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/380S/F2

Great article!

For that matter, birds eat fermented berries, and

wolves eat partially fermented stuff in cattle

intestines (as did the Native Americans and the

Inuit for seal intestines ... I'd bet the hominids

did too!).

But the oxalic acid reducing bacteria

(Oxalobacter formigens) aren't

lactobacilli, and I think most ferments

have other bacteria besides LAB. I mean, LAB

are great, but some of those other ones have

special niches. The Ox. bacteria seems to

be implicated specifically in kidney stones,

for instance (see below).

Seems some bacteria PRODUCE oxalate too. So

if you eat a high oxalate diet, or have

bacteria that produce oxalate, and no

oxalate-eaters, then you get kidney stones.

If in fact cider prevents kidney stones, maybe

it contains oxalate-eating bacteria? (or some

substance that keeps the oxalate from forming

stones, but the Occam's razor makes lean

toward the bacteria theory).

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/chelate/oxalate.html

Only a few plants contain sufficient amounts of sodium and potassium oxalate to

be considered toxic. Moreover, ruminants that consume these plants develop

increasing amounts of tolerance to oxalate. An oxalate degrading anaerobe

microorganism has been isolated from pure culture of rumen bacteria. This

organism, Oxalobacter formigens, uses oxalate as a sole energy source and

produces carbon dioxide and formate as end products. This ability is extremely

rare among anaerobic bacteria and therefore this organism occupies an unique

niche in the rumen's microflora. The ability of the ruminant to adapt and

tolerate high oxalate diets directly depends on the selection of oxalate-

degrading microorganisms.

http://www.napa.ufl.edu/oldnews/kidney.htm

GAINESVILLE--A newly developed laboratory test accurately detects an intestinal

bacteria believed to help prevent the most common type of kidney stone,

University of Florida researchers report today.

UF researchers are now applying the test in clinical studies to confirm a

strongly suspected link between the absence of the intestinal bacteria

Oxalobacter and so-called calcium oxalate kidney stones.

Dr. Ammon Peck, an immunologist with UF's College of Medicine whose genetic

discoveries paved the way for developing the diagnostic test, is optimistic that

if this link is verified, then calcium oxalate kidney stones may be prevented by

replenishing a patient's supply of the " good bacteria. "

Biochemist Harmeet Sidhu of Chandigarh, India, who developed the test under

Peck's direction, described the test today at the 8th International Symposium on

Urolithiasis, in Dallas. Sidhu is a visiting scientist at UF.

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>For that matter, birds eat fermented berries, ...

Yes, a flock of drunken rainbow lorikeets (from drinking fermented

nectar) is quite a site (sound!) to behold! I hear that elephants that

have been eating fermenting fruit can be quite a handful too...

>But the oxalic acid reducing bacteria

>(Oxalobacter formigens) aren't

>lactobacilli, and I think most ferments

>have other bacteria besides LAB. I mean, LAB

>are great, but some of those other ones have

>special niches.

In a sauerkraut ferment, the Lactobacillus are in fact late in the

fermentation, which is typically lead by Leuconostoc spp. Sometimes,

Lactobacillus doesn't get much of a look-in due to others, like

Pediococcus spp.

>The Ox. bacteria seems to

>be implicated specifically in kidney stones,

>for instance (see below).

Interesting stuff! Given that Oxalobacters consume oxalate for energy,

one could surmise that they'd hang around on plants that have oxalate in

them... and when you collect and press the leaves for a ferment, the

Oxalobacter would be part of that ferment. Perhaps?

This page says that O. formigenes occurs in the large bowel, and in

rumens in animals, but says nothing about plants:

http://141.150.157.117:8080/prokPUB/chaphtm/379/02_02.htm

>Seems some bacteria PRODUCE oxalate too. So

>if you eat a high oxalate diet, or have

>bacteria that produce oxalate, and no

>oxalate-eaters, then you get kidney stones.

Potentially, this could be the basis of symbiotic relationships between

Oxalobacter and the source spp. Kefir grains have this sort of

relationship; for example, the bacteria Lactobacillus kefir consumes

citric acid produced by the yeast Candida kefir.

>If in fact cider prevents kidney stones, maybe

>it contains oxalate-eating bacteria? (or some

>substance that keeps the oxalate from forming

>stones, but the Occam's razor makes lean

>toward the bacteria theory).

Potentially, but I wouldn't write-off the " some substance " bit either.

There's lots of good in apples, and fermented apples with still-alive

bacteria and yeast must be better. Also, your earlier point about

something in cider possibly feeding the Oxalobacters could be it (maybe

they need boron or some other element that apples give you).

More likely, however, is that it is other bacteria eating the oxalate.

This page lists quite a few, some of which I've seen mentioned in

connection with cider (e.g. Pseudomonas):

http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/index.html

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" There is more to life than simply increasing its speed. " - Mahatma Gandhi