Re: Re: Best sources of Vitamin B12

[Guest guest]

Regarding beer yeast...a very rich source of B vitamins indeed, among other

things..minerals and whatnot.

As an experiment, I recently saved the dregs (sediment) from a batch of

hombrewed beer and slow dried the slurry in the oven, it took a long time

but now I have these chunks of hard, bitter, brown stuff that is mostly

spent yeast with some hops and settled coagulated protien from the barley

grain...

It's too hard and bitter to be just eaten, so I'm going to grind it up in my

coffee grinder and put it into capsules with my capsule filler...then

voila! homemade brewers yeast supplement.. There is alot of it so I should

get a lot of capsules filled, now only if I knew what kind of nutritional

value per gram there is in the stuff so I knew how many to take each

day..Probably alot, but I sure can't eat this stuff.

I get some from the bit of sediment in my beer, but that's minimal, I only

drink a beer or two a day..

Beau

[Guest guest]

Beau.Barrett@... wrote:

>Regarding beer yeast...a very rich source of B vitamins indeed, among other

>things..minerals and whatnot.

>As an experiment, I recently saved the dregs (sediment) from a batch of

>hombrewed beer and slow dried the slurry in the oven, it took a long time

>but now I have these chunks of hard, bitter, brown stuff that is mostly

>spent yeast with some hops and settled coagulated protien from the barley

>grain...

>It's too hard and bitter to be just eaten, so I'm going to grind it up in my

>coffee grinder and put it into capsules with my capsule filler...then

>voila! homemade brewers yeast supplement.. There is alot of it so I should

>get a lot of capsules filled, now only if I knew what kind of nutritional

>value per gram there is in the stuff so I knew how many to take each

>day..Probably alot, but I sure can't eat this stuff.

>I get some from the bit of sediment in my beer, but that's minimal, I only

>drink a beer or two a day..

>Beau

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Beau Barrett wrote:

>Regarding beer yeast...a very rich source of B vitamins indeed, among other

>things..minerals and whatnot.

But not B12 (unless added as a supplement as they do in the health food

shop stuff).

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

Isao Haraguchi wrote:

>Nori sheet 1-3 a day (4g) may supply sufficient B12. (2.4ug)

>And it is OH-B12 ,activated form of B12.

>This is good for strict vegan people as well as for all of us.

Not according to the vegan and vegetarian societies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

>Beer yeast are used for making the supplement.

Yeast do not synthesize B12. You might be confusing this with health

food shop products that are basically brewer's yeast supplemented with

B12 from bacterial fermentations.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

I read that B12 can only be gotten with animal sources, particularly

organ meats like liver. The vegetarian B12's are only analogues and in

some cases block the absorption of B12.

On Mar 22, 2006, at 6:09 PM, Isao Haraguchi wrote:

> Genmai (germ rice ) has B12.

> so does nuka-zuke (rice bran) base.

> Dried bonito flakes (katuobushi)has B12.

> Soy bean miso has B12 in the process of ferment.

>

> So my vegan type meal for B12 charge willbe ;

>

> Genmai germ sprouted rice,

> Miso soup (stocked with katuobushi),

> Nori,

> Nukazuke.

>

> Very authentic meal. Good GABA suppliers,too.

>

> Still B12 defficient? well,you may want to swallow a teaspoon of nuka-

> zuke base that is the pool of B supplement.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On this topic of B12 from plant foods, below is a passage from [

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7c.shtml] that

summarizes the basic facts I've seen in various places. Isao's claim for a

sea vegetable to be a good source of B12 is a classic example of B12

analogues being conflated with the true B12 required by humans.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

----------------------------------------------

*B-12 in spirulina and other plant foods*

*Microbial assays for B-12 are unreliable.* A common misconception in vegan

circles is that fermented foods and spirulina contain B-12. This claim may,

at times, be supported by lab tests for B-12 based on the USP (U.S.

Pharmacopeia) assay methods.

Unfortunately, as explained in Herbert et al. [1984] and Herbert [1988], the

USP assay method for B-12 is unreliable. The assay measures total

corrinoids--that is, true B-12 plus analogues (forms of B-12 that are not

metabolically active in the body)--and the analogues have the potential to

block the absorption of true B-12 by occupying B-12 receptor sites. A

preferred, reliable test that can differentiate between true B-12 and

corrinoids is provided by differential radioassay. The assay problem must be

considered in evaluating " old " studies on B-12.

*Spirulina and tempeh contain mostly analogues of B-12.* Herbert [1988]

reports that tests on tempeh, a fermented soy product, and spirulina

revealed that they contained almost no true B-12, i.e., the " B-12 " they

contained (per USP assay test) was predominantly analogues. Herbert [1988, p.

857] reports:

We suspect that people taking spirulina as a source of vitamin B-12 may get

vitamin B-12 deficiency quicker because the analogues in the product block

human mammalian cell metabolism in culture [i.e., in the lab] and we suspect

that they will also do this in the living human.

The presence of analogues, rather than true B-12, in fermented foods makes

them unreliable sources for B-12.

------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks, everyone, for the discussion around fermentation and B-12.

It seems that I was suffering from the common misconception as well (that

fermented foods

are good sources of absorbable B12).

Back to the original problem - the person that I am speaking of is not a vegan

or

vegetarian, so meat based food is definetely an option.

So my question is - are meat based sources then the best option for getting B12

i.e.

liver, seafood, eggs, etc.

If so, what should be the cooking/preparation method to ensure that B12 is not

destroyed

during cooking.

Thanks again,

Pratick

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Pratick Mukherjee wrote:

> Thanks, everyone, for the discussion around fermentation and B-12.

> It seems that I was suffering from the common misconception as well

> (that fermented foods

> are good sources of absorbable B12).

I'm not sure how MUCH is in beer, but googling around, it

seems beer drinkers have higher levels of B12 than non

beer drinkers. So it does provide some that IS absorbable

(or prevents it's loss, but either way it helps).

Dead yeast ARE a sort of animal, after all!

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/vitaminb12/beer.htm

RESULTS: Beer intake was associated with blood folate and vitamin B12

concentrations positively and with tHcy concentration negatively. By categories

of beer intake, subjects with intake of 1 l daily or more had significantly

lower tHcy and higher folate concentrations than those reporting lower daily

beer intake.

Drinking kefir beer gives me some of the effects

I get from taking B vitamins, but I don't know

for sure which vitamins are in it.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Always love another good reason to have a homebrew..ahh. Thanks Heidi ;~)

In an earlier post to this thread I mentioned how I'm capping up my dried

brewing trub to take as vitamin supps. Since I do 5 gal batches I have

lots.. Sometimes I will use it to start another batch, but I hate to just

dump it when that's not the case..

Beau

>

> I'm not sure how MUCH is in beer, but googling around, it

> seems beer drinkers have higher levels of B12 than non

> beer drinkers. So it does provide some that IS absorbable

> (or prevents it's loss, but either way it helps).

>

> Dead yeast ARE a sort of animal, after all!

>

> http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/vitaminb12/beer.htm

>

> RESULTS: Beer intake was associated with blood folate and vitamin B12

> concentrations positively and with tHcy concentration negatively. By

> categories of beer intake, subjects with intake of 1 l daily or more had

> significantly lower tHcy and higher folate concentrations than those

> reporting lower daily beer intake.

>

> Drinking kefir beer gives me some of the effects

> I get from taking B vitamins, but I don't know

> for sure which vitamins are in it.

>

> -- Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>Dead yeast ARE a sort of animal, after all!

Um, kind of like how mushrooms are a sort of animal... or NOT...

>http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/vitaminb12/beer.htm

>

>RESULTS: Beer intake was associated with blood folate and vitamin B12

>concentrations positively and with tHcy concentration negatively. By

>categories of beer intake, subjects with intake of 1 l daily or more

>had significantly lower tHcy and higher folate concentrations than

>those reporting lower daily beer intake.

Which probably goes to show that beer drinkers can assimilate B12 from

their food sources better than that totally unnatural beast, the

teetotaler...

But it does not indicate that yeast produces B12. In fact, yeast does

not produce B12, so vegans who are beer drinkers will still need B12

supplements.

>Drinking kefir beer gives me some of the effects

>I get from taking B vitamins, but I don't know

>for sure which vitamins are in it.

I certainly feel better for drinking beer. The more beer, the better I

feel!

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" The lawn could stand another mowing; funny, I don't even care "

- Elvis Costello

[Guest guest]

More stuff on beer!

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/leisure/foodanddrink/stayingin/display.var.620036.0\

..the_beer_facts.php

5 good things about beer

1. Beer is rich in silicon believed to have beneficial effects on bone health

and therefore reduce the risk of developing osteoporosis. One pint of beer

contains 11mg of silicon, of which around 55 per cent (6mg) is absorbed.

2. A study of 27,000 men in Finland showed a 330 ml bottle of beer a day was

linked with 40 per cent lower risk of kidney stones. Beer is relatively high in

potassium and low in sodium and calcium and rich in magnesium.

3. A recent study set out to test the notion beer drinkers are on average, more

obese than non drinkers or drinkers of wine or spirits. It concluded it is

unlikely beer intake is associated with body mass index or waist hip ratio. Beer

has no fat or cholesterol.

4. Research in the Czech Republic showed people drinking a beer a day showed a

50 per cent reduction in heart disease compared to non-drinkers. Doctors believe

ethanol in beer thins blood and helps protect the heart. Scientists who have

studied the reduced risk of coronary heart disease in beer drinkers report the

reduction in risk is greater than would be expected from the alcohol alone, and

speculate other factors in beer such as vitamins and antioxidants could also be

protective.

5. Beer is particularly rich in most B type vitamins, for example, niacin,

riboflavin (B2), pyridoxine (B6), folate (B9) and Cobalamin (B12). Recent

research shows B vitamins (B6, B9 and B12) may give beer drinkers additional

protection against cardiovascular disease compared to drinkers of wine or

spirits.

[Guest guest]

Ross McKay wrote:

> Heidi wrote:

>

> >Dead yeast ARE a sort of animal, after all!

>

> Um, kind of like how mushrooms are a sort of animal... or NOT...

Yeah, that referred to a bit from Biology 101 and an

issue of what category yeast really are in. Bacteria

are considered animals, yeast are .... sort of ...

> But it does not indicate that yeast produces B12. In fact, yeast does

> not produce B12, so vegans who are beer drinkers will still need B12

> supplements.

Beer DOES contain B12. Not a lot, but interestingly, they

attribute what B12 there is to " contaminating " bacteria

(which would be LAB most likely). So kefir beer probably

has more.

I'm the last person to argue for a vegan diet

though. Me, I eat meat!

> I certainly feel better for drinking beer. The more beer, the better I

> feel!

Amen!

Kefir beer does me better than the barley beer ever did

though. oops... the glass is empty ... time for a refill ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>More stuff on beer!

>

>http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/leisure/foodanddrink/stayingin/display.var.620036.\

0.the_beer_facts.php

>5 good things about beer

>...

>5. Beer is particularly rich in most B type vitamins, for example, niacin,

>riboflavin (B2), pyridoxine (B6), folate (B9) and Cobalamin (B12). Recent

>research shows B vitamins (B6, B9 and B12) may give beer drinkers

>additional protection against cardiovascular disease compared to drinkers

>of wine or spirits.

Except that beer will only be " rich " in B12 if it has been added as a

supplement. Grain don't have B12, and yeast don't make it.

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

However, folate (B9) is required in addition to B12 for B12 to be

effective.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

Those " dregs " really do make me feel good! I just drink

them with the brew though. I shake the bottle to mix 'em in

while drinking. Which I'm told is what one is supposed

to do with one Aussie brew (tho I can't drink barley

beer any more so I don't drink that brand).

If there aren't a lot of hops, the dregs I would

think could be added to other things. I used to buy

yeast that was dried without the hops, and I put it

on popcorn for flavor. It was sooooo good. Really toasty.

-- Heidi

Beau Barrett wrote:

> Always love another good reason to have a homebrew..ahh. Thanks Heidi ;~)

> In an earlier post to this thread I mentioned how I'm capping up my dried

> brewing trub to take as vitamin supps. Since I do 5 gal batches I have

> lots.. Sometimes I will use it to start another batch, but I hate to just

> dump it when that's not the case..

> Beau

[Guest guest]

> Except that beer will only be " rich " in B12 if it has been added as a

> supplement. Grain don't have B12, and yeast don't make it.

>

> http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

I agree if it is a yeast beer. But bacteria DO produce

B12 ... that's how they make it for those B12 pills.

The B12 in beer is thought to come from the LAB

contamination.

Which, I think, is why some of our ancestors really,

really thought highly of their beer. In low-meat

societies, the beer probably provided a lot of the

B vitamins. THAT beer was generally LAB beer,

because they hadn't invented Chlorox yet.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB12/index.html

Food sources

Only bacteria can synthesize vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 is present in animal

products such as meat, poultry, fish (including shellfish), and to a lesser

extent milk, but it is not generally present in plant products or yeast (1).

Fresh pasteurized milk contains 0.9 mcg per cup and is an important source of

vitamin B12 for some vegetarians (5). Those vegetarians who eat no animal

products need supplemental vitamin B12 to meet their requirements. Also,

individuals over the age of 50 should obtain their vitamin B12 in supplements or

fortified foods like fortified cereal because of the increased likelihood of

food-bound vitamin B12 malabsorption.

OTOH I am NOT arguing for a vegan diet. Esp. since I also

don't eat grains. Eating a grain-free vegan diet ...

it's next to impossible.

Then of course, there is the philisophical issue: are

bacteria animals? If they are, eating fermented foods

is killing a lot of animals, since your digestive juices

do in a lot of them ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

LAB do produce B12 ...

http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1309802/

Project: Vitamin B12 engineering in lactid acid bacteria

Show printer-friendly view Print View switch to nl

mutation

Titel Vitamin B12 engineering in lactid acid bacteria

Abstract [Aim]:

We focus on the characterization of the genes involved in B12-biosynthesis,

their expression and function. We aim (i) to elucidate the B12-biosynthetic

pathway in lactobacilli and perform comparative genomics with other

microorganisms (ii) and to improve B12-production through overexpression of

B12-genes and/or through insight in regulatory mechanisms using transcriptomics

(DNA-arrays) technology. This research will also generate major possibilities

for industrial application, such as development of fermented foods with

increased vitamin B12-levels.

Period 10/2003 - 10/2007

[Guest guest]

That's why I couldn't be vegan! Gotta love those technicalities.

-Lana

> Then of course, there is the philisophical issue: are

> bacteria animals? If they are, eating fermented foods

> is killing a lot of animals, since your digestive juices

> do in a lot of them ...

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> As I remember in my boyhood,we had clam peddler come by in early

> morning,not anymore ,,,. I feel we have lost something important,slow

> life.

I agree totally! The idea that " competition is good "

has led to a totally frenetic life. Life was not,

in my childhood, ALL about competition. Sure, Walmart

sells things cheaper. But does it lead to a better life?

That's a philosophical question right up there with

" are bacteria animals? " .

>

> Anyway,clam soup/juice clears up you overnight hangover from your

> drinking. +-)

Now, HOW would you know that??? :-)

We love clam chowder at our house. We don't have a clam

peddler though, we get canned clams.

I hear acorn flour pancakes are good for that too ...

I bought some acorn flour but haven't tried it yet.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Unhappily, a lot of lactobacilli also USE B12 rather the produce it. It seems

quite species dependant, and the research on this just doesn't seem to be very

profuse. Indeed, the growth of certain lactobacilli is used as an assay of the

presence of B12 in the substrate. So a mixed " wild " ferment might end up as sort

of a wash as to B12 production. It appears the bacteria such as Pseudomonas,

Proprionibacterium, and other non-friendly (to fermentations) bacteria are sort

of the " yeomen " in producing this. Interestingly enough, the biosynthetic

pathways of chlorophyll, heme, and B12 production have been shown to be somewhat

similar but centered around cobalt, iron, or magnesium respectively. Ah, but

that I had only paid more attention in organic chemistry classes! It looks like

some research is being done here:

http://www.wcfs.nl/webdb/AP/Kluyver

Re: Re: Best sources of Vitamin B12

LAB do produce B12 ...

http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1309802/

Project: Vitamin B12 engineering in lactid acid bacteria

Show printer-friendly view Print View switch to nl

mutation

Titel Vitamin B12 engineering in lactid acid bacteria

Abstract [Aim]:

We focus on the characterization of the genes involved in B12-biosynthesis,

their expression and function. We aim (i) to elucidate the B12-biosynthetic

pathway in lactobacilli and perform comparative genomics with other

microorganisms (ii) and to improve B12-production through overexpression of

B12-genes and/or through insight in regulatory mechanisms using transcriptomics

(DNA-arrays) technology. This research will also generate major possibilities

for industrial application, such as development of fermented foods with

increased vitamin B12-levels.

Period 10/2003 - 10/2007

[Guest guest]

Why aren't you out there digging razor clams and geoducks, Heidi?

Canned clams indeed!

Re: Re: Best sources of Vitamin B12

> As I remember in my boyhood,we had clam peddler come by in early

> morning,not anymore ,,,. I feel we have lost something important,slow

> life.

I agree totally! The idea that " competition is good "

has led to a totally frenetic life. Life was not,

in my childhood, ALL about competition. Sure, Walmart

sells things cheaper. But does it lead to a better life?

That's a philosophical question right up there with

" are bacteria animals? " .

>

> Anyway,clam soup/juice clears up you overnight hangover from your

> drinking. +-)

Now, HOW would you know that??? :-)

We love clam chowder at our house. We don't have a clam

peddler though, we get canned clams.

I hear acorn flour pancakes are good for that too ...

I bought some acorn flour but haven't tried it yet.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Sea Orca wrote:

> Why aren't you out there digging razor clams and geoducks, Heidi?

> Canned clams indeed!

Heh heh. Yeah, we have some good ones out there!

I don't live near the water, but we've done

it on occasion. Love them gooey ducks.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

, marmite and vegimite are close cousins. They are similar in some

respect. We have both products here in Australia, even though vegimite

was once an Aussie invention and owned company, it was sold to Heinz

some years back. Since then, a famous rich Aussie dude, Dick who

began his fortune business in the electronic component industry [Dick

s Electronics] so I believe, felt ashamed how us Aussies let such

an important landmark/air loom like vegimite, fall to a foreign legion,

Heinz. So Dick decided to bring out his own version of vegimite

just a few year ago. His product is sold under the lable of " Dicky Mite "

[i type truthfully, no lie]. However, I don't think it's half as good as

vegimite, flavour wise. All these three products are yeast extract

concentrate based [filled with scrapmite be it that mite scrapings may

have more benefit nutrition wise with less artificial chemical

intolerance for humans than any of these such products].

Oops.... I best run now, before a heated debate begins with my

cheekiness left on the lurk as the target of Oz. Gotta love those jars

of marmite, vegimite, bon-ox and Dicky Mite, don't yah?! ...

....Be-well,

Dom

Pugh wrote:

> Reading Beau's comment about his brewers yeast reminded me of a spread called

Marmite which is very popular in England and comes in a little black glass jar

with a yellow lid. It's one of those things that you either like or hate, and

is available in Ontario (for Pratick who asked the question). According to

the label on my jar, half a teaspoon gives 10% Daily Value of B12. Better than

nothing for those who like it I guess.

>

> HTH,

> and the K9's

>

>

[Guest guest]

Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Bacteria? SPCB?

lana.m.gibbons@... wrote:

>That's why I couldn't be vegan! Gotta love those technicalities.

>

>-Lana

>

>

>

>> Then of course, there is the philisophical issue: are

>> bacteria animals? If they are, eating fermented foods

>> is killing a lot of animals, since your digestive juices

>> do in a lot of them ...

>>

>> -- Heidi

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yes, please if you get a chance, do a taste comparison of the two mites.

AL though I was born as an Aussie, I mostly consider myself as Italian,

due to heritage. An with this I would like to add to the discussion,

while trying to keep on topic. While in my youth going to school in my

pre teens mostly. my mother often prepared sandwiches from her wood oven

home made bread, and spread ove bread was what you may call, blood

pudding, or blood worst. To the more orthodox Australian [for use of a

better termanology], it appearaed that my sandwiches on those occasions

at least, were prepared with vegimite....but they certainly weren't!

At least blood worst, or more precisely, Southern Italian Pig's blood

pudding [prepared with large intestine of Pig filled with Pig's blood

[or course], fresh bread crumbed, pine nuts, raisins, cocoa powder,

sugar, lemon zest, spices such as nutmeg vanillar extract and clove] was

rich in Vit B-12, I'd say.

If members feel squeemish reading this, just imagine how a few

true-blue Ozzie victims felt, when they took a bite from my sandwich but

believing that they were simply chocloate filled sandwiches! [that

taught many foes a good lesson, i.e. not to tease those kids that bring

food for lunch to school, that those cultures eat traditionaly and

enjoy]. Let me put it this way, I never got teased again, about all the

strange and wondferul colour-textured filled sanwhiches I took to school

for lunch.

Be-well,

Dom

Pugh wrote:

> Hi Dom,

>

> I wondered how long it would take the Aussies on the list to chime in about

Vegemite! I hear it's different from Marmite, and would love to do a taste test

of the two. Oh too funny about Dicky Mite! Not that I blame him from wanting

to keep such an heirloom in the country {LOL}.

>

> I don't think there's going to be much of a discussion of these -mites because

not too many Americans or Canadians are familiar with the stuff. They just

don't know what they are missing out on ;-)

>

> and the K9's

>

> --------

[Guest guest]

Heidi, certain strains of yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiea e.g., can

reproduce sexually, or asexually. The sexual reproduction is not unlike

the animal queendom [in that it takes two organisms to tango]. Most

strains of bacteria reproduce through binary fission... they split

leaving two daughter cells.

Since discussing Vit B-12, I'm trying to locate a citation among text in

the interest of this thread. It explains the production of biologically

active Vit B-12 in kefir-whey with the introduction of a specific strain

Vit B-12 producing bacteria [i can not recall the propionic bacteria

strain off hand], with high yields of Vit B-12. I recall reading this

and as mentioned that kefir-whey produced the best results in comparison

to other media. I'll post it when I locate the abstract.

Be-well,

Dom

Heidi wrote:

> Yeah, that referred to a bit from Biology 101 and an issue of what category

yeast really are in. Bacteria

are considered animals, yeast are .... sort of ...