Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

[Guest guest]

Nourishing Traditions has a recipe for fermented fish sauce using whey. I tried

making it, and then I tried eating it - gave up. Acquired taste?? or just Nasty!

Vicki

kefir_king <kefir_king@...> wrote: Hi

I am curious as to how fish is fermented. I have seen pictures of fish

dug up in the groud.

****************

The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.

-Eleanor Roosevelt

---------------------------------

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

well aparently, if you decide to ferment fish...you will clear the whole

neighbourhood very quick and you will be very unpopular..

I think I will just stick to brinning and pickling...that is much easier....

I think in the meat industry they use tenderising enzymes..maybe the same can

be done with the fish...

Vicki Mayes <vicmayes@...> wrote:

Nourishing Traditions has a recipe for fermented fish sauce using whey. I

tried making it, and then I tried eating it - gave up. Acquired taste?? or just

Nasty!

Vicki

kefir_king <kefir_king@...> wrote: Hi

I am curious as to how fish is fermented. I have seen pictures of fish

dug up in the groud.

****************

The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.

-Eleanor Roosevelt

---------------------------------

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

Fish *sauce* is made by layering salt and (usually) anchovies, this is

fermented for a good while, then the juice is pressed and bottled as fish

sauce..mmm.. Used alot in thai food and korean food, it stinks pretty bad on

it's own, but adds a really good flavor when used in almost " homeopathic "

amounts LOL. The smell goes away during cooking.. a few drops'll do

ya..Lasts a long time.

I would think that an amount of salt bordering on being almost too much for

any fermentation would be used, (the sauce is very salty) to ensure safety

from pathogens and maybe even kill parasites..I also wouldn't be surprised

if the sauce is pastuerised once in the bottle...

Beau

On 3/26/06, kefir king <kefir_king@...> wrote:

>

> well aparently, if you decide to ferment fish...you will clear the whole

> neighbourhood very quick and you will be very unpopular..

> I think I will just stick to brinning and pickling...that is much

> easier....

> I think in the meat industry they use tenderising enzymes..maybe the same

> can be done with the fish...

>

> Vicki Mayes <vicmayes@...> wrote:

> Nourishing Traditions has a recipe for fermented fish sauce using whey. I

> tried making it, and then I tried eating it - gave up. Acquired taste?? or

> just Nasty!

> Vicki

>

> kefir_king <kefir_king@...> wrote: Hi

> I am curious as to how fish is fermented. I have seen pictures of fish

> dug up in the groud.

>

>

> ****************

> The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.

>

> -Eleanor Roosevelt

>

> ---------------------------------

> New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save

> big.

>

>

[Guest guest]

it is dangerous to ferment fish if you don't know it well, you can get botulism

bacteria and die

I do make home made gravlax,though

freeze fish first and never touch soi

tove

Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

well aparently, if you decide to ferment fish...you will clear the whole

neighbourhood very quick and you will be very unpopular..

I think I will just stick to brinning and pickling...that is much easier....

I think in the meat industry they use tenderising enzymes..maybe the same

can be done with the fish...

[Guest guest]

Beau

I used Thai Fish salt..and I have seen pictures of how they make

it...it aparently stinks...and yes very salty...

You can buy salted and sun dried fish..they are quite a delicay..but

you have to wash all the salt out before cooking them...

Hi

> > I am curious as to how fish is fermented. I have seen pictures of

fish

> > dug up in the groud.

> >

> >

> > ****************

> > The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their

dreams.

> >

> > -Eleanor Roosevelt

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC

and save

> > big.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

how do you avoid the nasty stuff when making gravlax?...

>

> it is dangerous to ferment fish if you don't know it well, you can

get botulism bacteria and die

> I do make home made gravlax,though

> freeze fish first and never touch soi

> tove

> Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

>

>

> well aparently, if you decide to ferment fish...you will clear

the whole neighbourhood very quick and you will be very unpopular..

> I think I will just stick to brinning and pickling...that is

much easier....

> I think in the meat industry they use tenderising

enzymes..maybe the same can be done with the fish...

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

KK,

FWIW, and not the answer to your question, but...I once sliced calf's

liver into one quarter inch slices that were several inches long and put them

into a jar of kefir whey. They were cultured for a couple of weeks. I tried

eating them straight from the jar, stir fried and breaded. Too bitter. Will look

for another way. C R

In a message dated 3/26/2006 12:52:04 PM Central Standard Time,

kefir_king@... writes:

> OK here is the question? By brinning the fish for 48 hours..then

> pickling it...what fermentation goes on there...there is very little

> carbohydrates, so i guess no lactic acid fermentation will take

> place...has anyone done any experimentation with maybe putting some

> kefir whey with the fish and see what happens...I notice that Heidi has

> used a similar method to make Jerky...

> thanks

> KK

[Guest guest]

I think you may be thinking of RAKFISH...which is where all the

poisoning cases in your country happen with this home made

Rakfish...Rakfish is a long (few weeks) fermentation process, and it

has to be kept at 5-6 degrees.

Gravlax is I understand 24 hours in the fridge...quite different from

Rakfish...

Have you had Rakfish? What does it taste like?

>

> it is dangerous to ferment fish if you don't know it well, you can

get botulism bacteria and die

> I do make home made gravlax,though

> freeze fish first and never touch soi

> tove

> Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

>

>

> well aparently, if you decide to ferment fish...you will clear

the whole neighbourhood very quick and you will be very unpopular..

> I think I will just stick to brinning and pickling...that is

much easier....

> I think in the meat industry they use tenderising

enzymes..maybe the same can be done with the fish...

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

kefir_king wrote:

> how do you avoid the nasty stuff when making gravlax?...

Gravlax isn't fermented long enough to get

botulism, and most of it is made under refrigeration

these days. But it's layered in salt, and layering

fish in salt is pretty safe. I do it with small

fish to make anchovies. Works good.

However, you DO want to make sure the salmon

was frozen first. Seems wild salmon usually

harbors roundworms. All the samples of sushi

they sampled in Seattle had roundworms, but the

farmed salmon sushi did not. However, the roundworms

were all dead, because here you have to freeze

the salmon before you make sushi.

The danger in fermenting fish is when it's

done NOT according to the " old ways " . Like, if

you use tupperware instead of a seal skin or

whatever. There are a lot of variables.

The Roman recipe, which seems typical, is to

take all the fish GUTS and put them in an

open clay pot OUT IN THE SUN. They get

really frothy and fermented. You take in the

pot every night and stir it a couple of times

during the day. It doesn't say how to keep

the flies out: maybe they had a cloth on top.

The fish guts have some carb in them, I think,

(from whatever the fish was eating? glycogen in the liver?)

which makes for a true ferment, and it's

in the AIR which means botulism isn't likely

to grow. Plus you got the sun beating on

it, so it's pretty warm. And I'd guess they

added a little salt.

The cases that got botulism, in my reading,

were all in sealed ferments (like buried in the

dirt or in tupperware) and had few or no

carbs or salt. The carbs seem to be key, because

they get the right bacteria growing which

crowd out the Clostridium. Clostridium doesn't

seem to want to grow where there is competition,

so it grows a lot in *mostly* sterile items

(like garlic cloves and poorly sterilized

canned green beans). Clostridium also doesn't

like acid, so the lactic acid protects kimchi

and kraut, even though they are anaerobic ferments.

Other cases involved a salt-ferment, but the

salt wasn't stirred in properly.

You can read all about botulinus and

fish ferments on the CDC website.

Anyway, the way I pickle fish is to add

the chunks to kimchi. The other stuff

makes sure the fish pickles correctly. I did

one batch that was JUST salmon, a little kimchi juice,

salt, and onions. It was fantastic, tasted like really

good pickled herring, but it smelled

like an open sewer so I didn't do it again.

More on botulism:

==============

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/10430.html

In the United States, roughly 100 people become ill with botulism each year.

More than two-thirds of botulism cases today occur in infants. Babies less than

1 year old, especially those that are breastfeeding, have a different intestinal

system than adults. Spores swallowed by an adult with a mature digestive tract

usually will remain in their hibernating, inactive state. But spores ingested by

a young infant can reproduce and can form toxin that is absorbed into the

bloodstream, causing botulism.

In one out of five cases of botulism in infants, the infant has eaten raw honey.

More rarely, botulism spores are found in corn syrup. Since the majority of

cases of infant botulism can't be traced to a food source, experts suspect that

babies are exposed simply by swallowing small amounts of dust or dirt.

Rarely, botulism is the result of a contaminated wound. Most wound botulism

today occurs in people who inject recreational drugs.

==========

Which means, even though you ingest botulism spores constantly,

very few people people ever get the disease. Most of the ones

that do get it from home-canned foods or foil-wrapped baked

potatoes that stayed too long in the fridge.

One interesting take on this is that Clostridium

seems to be able to grow in the intestine in

some people, which means those people are maybe getting

low levels of the toxin in their blood. Since the

toxin causes stuff like blurred vision, THAT might

be a cause of some weird syndromes. Which might

also account for why some people get such dramatic

results from probiotics.

http://www.vorsoft.com/medical/botulism/descript.htm

The spores of the botulism bacteria are found everywhere. Probably we ingest

these every day of our lives, either on vegetables or from dust in the air. It

might be different though to have a tick, for example, inject them under the

skin. There may also be a new subspecies going around.

Bell's palsy, in which one side of the face droops, is a common Lyme disease

symptom. This is caused by some kind of nerve damage, resulting in temporary

paralysis of the facial muscles.

Cardiac problems, which are often associated with early Lyme disease, are due to

nerve blockage in the nerves that control the beating of the heart.

The Clostridium bacteria produce many toxins besides the neurotoxins. They

produce enzymes that digest tissue, for example: protease which dissolves

proteins, and collagenase which dissolves collagen. This could be related to the

joint damage of people with Lyme disease and to the disappearing fingerprints of

people with CFS.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I dont think I will go down that route, there is really no need for

me..just pickling is fine...and maybe I will experiment with some

tenderizing enzymes all in the FRIDGE...2 Degrees C...Add some Papaya

and Pineapel to the fish in the fridge for 12 hours...that will mash

all the protein up... :-)

> > how do you avoid the nasty stuff when making gravlax?...

>

> Gravlax isn't fermented long enough to get

> botulism, and most of it is made under refrigeration

> these days. But it's layered in salt, and layering

> fish in salt is pretty safe. I do it with small

> fish to make anchovies. Works good.

>

> However, you DO want to make sure the salmon

> was frozen first. Seems wild salmon usually

> harbors roundworms. All the samples of sushi

> they sampled in Seattle had roundworms, but the

> farmed salmon sushi did not. However, the roundworms

> were all dead, because here you have to freeze

> the salmon before you make sushi.

>

> The danger in fermenting fish is when it's

> done NOT according to the " old ways " . Like, if

> you use tupperware instead of a seal skin or

> whatever. There are a lot of variables.

>

> The Roman recipe, which seems typical, is to

> take all the fish GUTS and put them in an

> open clay pot OUT IN THE SUN. They get

> really frothy and fermented. You take in the

> pot every night and stir it a couple of times

> during the day. It doesn't say how to keep

> the flies out: maybe they had a cloth on top.

>

> The fish guts have some carb in them, I think,

> (from whatever the fish was eating? glycogen in the liver?)

> which makes for a true ferment, and it's

> in the AIR which means botulism isn't likely

> to grow. Plus you got the sun beating on

> it, so it's pretty warm. And I'd guess they

> added a little salt.

>

> The cases that got botulism, in my reading,

> were all in sealed ferments (like buried in the

> dirt or in tupperware) and had few or no

> carbs or salt. The carbs seem to be key, because

> they get the right bacteria growing which

> crowd out the Clostridium. Clostridium doesn't

> seem to want to grow where there is competition,

> so it grows a lot in *mostly* sterile items

> (like garlic cloves and poorly sterilized

> canned green beans). Clostridium also doesn't

> like acid, so the lactic acid protects kimchi

> and kraut, even though they are anaerobic ferments.

>

> Other cases involved a salt-ferment, but the

> salt wasn't stirred in properly.

>

> You can read all about botulinus and

> fish ferments on the CDC website.

>

> Anyway, the way I pickle fish is to add

> the chunks to kimchi. The other stuff

> makes sure the fish pickles correctly. I did

> one batch that was JUST salmon, a little kimchi juice,

> salt, and onions. It was fantastic, tasted like really

> good pickled herring, but it smelled

> like an open sewer so I didn't do it again.

>

> More on botulism:

> ==============

> http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/10430.html

>

> In the United States, roughly 100 people become ill with botulism

each year. More than two-thirds of botulism cases today occur in

infants. Babies less than 1 year old, especially those that are

breastfeeding, have a different intestinal system than adults. Spores

swallowed by an adult with a mature digestive tract usually will

remain in their hibernating, inactive state. But spores ingested by a

young infant can reproduce and can form toxin that is absorbed into

the bloodstream, causing botulism.

>

> In one out of five cases of botulism in infants, the infant has

eaten raw honey. More rarely, botulism spores are found in corn

syrup. Since the majority of cases of infant botulism can't be traced

to a food source, experts suspect that babies are exposed simply by

swallowing small amounts of dust or dirt.

>

> Rarely, botulism is the result of a contaminated wound. Most wound

botulism today occurs in people who inject recreational drugs.

> ==========

>

> Which means, even though you ingest botulism spores constantly,

> very few people people ever get the disease. Most of the ones

> that do get it from home-canned foods or foil-wrapped baked

> potatoes that stayed too long in the fridge.

>

> One interesting take on this is that Clostridium

> seems to be able to grow in the intestine in

> some people, which means those people are maybe getting

> low levels of the toxin in their blood. Since the

> toxin causes stuff like blurred vision, THAT might

> be a cause of some weird syndromes. Which might

> also account for why some people get such dramatic

> results from probiotics.

>

> http://www.vorsoft.com/medical/botulism/descript.htm

>

> The spores of the botulism bacteria are found everywhere. Probably

we ingest these every day of our lives, either on vegetables or from

dust in the air. It might be different though to have a tick, for

example, inject them under the skin. There may also be a new

subspecies going around.

>

> Bell's palsy, in which one side of the face droops, is a common

Lyme disease symptom. This is caused by some kind of nerve damage,

resulting in temporary paralysis of the facial muscles.

>

> Cardiac problems, which are often associated with early Lyme

disease, are due to nerve blockage in the nerves that control the

beating of the heart.

>

> The Clostridium bacteria produce many toxins besides the

neurotoxins. They produce enzymes that digest tissue, for example:

protease which dissolves proteins, and collagenase which dissolves

collagen. This could be related to the joint damage of people with

Lyme disease and to the disappearing fingerprints of people with CFS.

>

>

> -- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

I should also add to my previous note ...

it seems most fish DO have the spores in their

guts, which is why fermented whole fish seem

to be the cause of some botulism outbreaks.

But fermented fish guts are what they

use to make fish sauce, and fish sauce generally

seems to be ok. My guess is that it's the

long ferment. If they ferment for a long time

and then go acidic, then that breaks down the

toxin and kills the clostridium. Kind of like,

LONG fermented cheese is safer than short fermented

cheese.

Anyway, they say it doesn't grow in anything acidic

(under 4.5 ph) so I'd go with the kimchi method.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Have you tried putting fish filletts in Kefir (not

grains)...aparently it is a great tenderizer...

>

>

> I should also add to my previous note ...

> it seems most fish DO have the spores in their

> guts, which is why fermented whole fish seem

> to be the cause of some botulism outbreaks.

> But fermented fish guts are what they

> use to make fish sauce, and fish sauce generally

> seems to be ok. My guess is that it's the

> long ferment. If they ferment for a long time

> and then go acidic, then that breaks down the

> toxin and kills the clostridium. Kind of like,

> LONG fermented cheese is safer than short fermented

> cheese.

>

> Anyway, they say it doesn't grow in anything acidic

> (under 4.5 ph) so I'd go with the kimchi method.

>

> -- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

It is interesting what you say about the need for carbohydrates when

fermenting fish...The pickling recipes that I have for brine pickling

of fish all require that you add 1 Cup of Sugar...I guess that is

what its for ...Carbs..

>

>

> I should also add to my previous note ...

> it seems most fish DO have the spores in their

> guts, which is why fermented whole fish seem

> to be the cause of some botulism outbreaks.

> But fermented fish guts are what they

> use to make fish sauce, and fish sauce generally

> seems to be ok. My guess is that it's the

> long ferment. If they ferment for a long time

> and then go acidic, then that breaks down the

> toxin and kills the clostridium. Kind of like,

> LONG fermented cheese is safer than short fermented

> cheese.

>

> Anyway, they say it doesn't grow in anything acidic

> (under 4.5 ph) so I'd go with the kimchi method.

>

> -- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

kefir_king wrote:

> Have you tried putting fish filletts in Kefir (not

> grains)...aparently it is a great tenderizer...

Yes, I have. The problem is, it is SUCH

a good tenderizer that if you aren't careful

you end up with fish-mush!

Kefir is great for tenderizing meat though.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

kefir_king wrote:

> It is interesting what you say about the need for carbohydrates when

> fermenting fish...The pickling recipes that I have for brine pickling

> of fish all require that you add 1 Cup of Sugar...I guess that is

> what its for ...Carbs..

Right. The low-carb ferments are the dangerous

ones. If there is carb, the yeast and LAB eat it

and lower the PH (and produce alcohol, in the case

of yeast).

Most " pickled fish " though isn't fermented,

it's just soaked in vinegar. So probably the

sugar there is to offset the sourness of

the vinegar.

Vinegar IS a ferment,

so I don't think it's a bad thing to do,

but I prefer the taste of kimchi-juice. If you

soak fish in kimchi juice, you get a nice

pickled fish.

However, it has the same problem as kefir-soaked

fish ... fish ferments and falls apart. Soaking

the fish in vinegar doesn't have that problem.

Fish pickled in vinegar isn't dangerous either,

I think (though from what I've read, you should

remove the fish guts first: using fish fillets

would likely be the way to go).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Kefir is great for tenderizing some of the cheaper/tougher cuts of beef..

On 3/26/06, Heidi <heidis@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> kefir_king wrote:

> > It is interesting what you say about the need for carbohydrates when

> > fermenting fish...The pickling recipes that I have for brine pickling

> > of fish all require that you add 1 Cup of Sugar...I guess that is

> > what its for ...Carbs..

>

> Right. The low-carb ferments are the dangerous

> ones. If there is carb, the yeast and LAB eat it

> and lower the PH (and produce alcohol, in the case

> of yeast).

>

> Most " pickled fish " though isn't fermented,

> it's just soaked in vinegar. So probably the

> sugar there is to offset the sourness of

> the vinegar.

>

> Vinegar IS a ferment,

> so I don't think it's a bad thing to do,

> but I prefer the taste of kimchi-juice. If you

> soak fish in kimchi juice, you get a nice

> pickled fish.

>

> However, it has the same problem as kefir-soaked

> fish ... fish ferments and falls apart. Soaking

> the fish in vinegar doesn't have that problem.

> Fish pickled in vinegar isn't dangerous either,

> I think (though from what I've read, you should

> remove the fish guts first: using fish fillets

> would likely be the way to go).

>

> -- Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>...

>The Roman recipe, which seems typical, is to

>take all the fish GUTS and put them in an

>open clay pot OUT IN THE SUN. They get

>really frothy and fermented. You take in the

>pot every night and stir it a couple of times

>during the day. It doesn't say how to keep

>the flies out: maybe they had a cloth on top.

I think they had a weight to press the fish *and* fish guts down (NB:

not just guts, but also whole fish). I think they also used sealed

containers. Unfortunately, I have lent out my book on Salt: A World

History, which talked about garum, liquamen and other Roman salt / fish

delicacies, so I can't look it up.

>The fish guts have some carb in them, I think,

>(from whatever the fish was eating? glycogen in the liver?)

>which makes for a true ferment, and it's

>in the AIR which means botulism isn't likely

>to grow. Plus you got the sun beating on

>it, so it's pretty warm. And I'd guess they

>added a little salt.

Not in the air; pressed into vessels, so quite anoxic. As for salt,

probably as much as there was fish! This is part of the reason that salt

was as good as currency in Roman days, and why the soldiers got a salt

ration (salary). No Roman soldier " worth his salt " would go anywhere

without garum

Actually, thinking about it, what you're talking about is probably not

garum, but one of the other Roman fish ferments. They did like their

fermented fish...

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Nobody ever rioted for austerity " - Monbiot

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

>I should also add to my previous note ...

>it seems most fish DO have the spores in their

>guts, which is why fermented whole fish seem

>to be the cause of some botulism outbreaks.

>But fermented fish guts are what they

>use to make fish sauce, and fish sauce generally

>seems to be ok. My guess is that it's the

>long ferment. If they ferment for a long time

>and then go acidic, then that breaks down the

>toxin and kills the clostridium.

It's the lactic acid ferment. Just like sauerkraut and kimchi, the salt

and lack of oxygen inhibit most of the bad guys, and the rising lactic

acid levels (plus other organic acids) inhibit the rest.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" There is more to life than simply increasing its speed. " - Mahatma Gandhi

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure what it was: the recipe was in

an old cookbook and was a direct quote

from the Romans. The recipe was a lot

like the fermented tomatoes in Keeping Food

Fresh ... you set a pot out in the sun

full of fish guts.

I'm sure they had lots of other recipes though!

Hm. There is a similar one in my Korean

cookbook, tho they don't ferment it as long.

I'll have to look it up and post it.

-- Heidi

> Actually, thinking about it, what you're talking about is probably not

> garum, but one of the other Roman fish ferments. They did like their

> fermented fish...

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> " Nobody ever rioted for austerity " - Monbiot

[Guest guest]

rakfisk is an aqcuired taste....

Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

I think you may be thinking of RAKFISH...which is where all the

poisoning cases in your country happen with this home made

Rakfish...Rakfish is a long (few weeks) fermentation process, and it

has to be kept at 5-6 degrees.

Gravlax is I understand 24 hours in the fridge...quite different from

Rakfish...

Have you had Rakfish? What does it taste like?

[Guest guest]

can you describe the taste?

Tove Stenersen <tove.stenersen@...> wrote: rakfisk is an aqcuired

taste....

Re: Brined-fermented pickled fish

I think you may be thinking of RAKFISH...which is where all the

poisoning cases in your country happen with this home made

Rakfish...Rakfish is a long (few weeks) fermentation process, and it

has to be kept at 5-6 degrees.

Gravlax is I understand 24 hours in the fridge...quite different from

Rakfish...

Have you had Rakfish? What does it taste like?