Re: OT when doctors lie to you

March 11, 2006

bruce@... wrote:

>Actually it does not work all that well on foul. About a 40% success rate

>was the last published thing I saw. Most certainly I would rather have

>birds get shots than people.

>

>The problem is that wild birds will spread it with migratory patterns and

>even if relatively well contained, it will eventually spread.

>

>Tamaflu only works if used within 48 hours of contact and that is a 60% fix.

>That is latest published statistic from CDC.

>

>Anti-viral from natural substances is a better fix than synthetics. What

>most people discount is that it is more than just one thing in the natural

>product that makes it successful. There is a synergistic effect going on

>that does enhance the primary ingredient which when isolated is no where

>near as effective as when used in conjunction with the other compounds in

>the plant. Same issue all the way through with synthetic drugs versus

>natural cures. The synthetics can be more potent, but that is not

>necessarily the answer.

>

>One was bad batch and the other was allergic reaction. Either case is

>unacceptable. I do not think that most people are better off with a flu

>shot. I am now going on 9 years without one simply because I used to get

>sick from the shot and got tired of being sicker from the cure than what it

>was fighting. I changed the diet and boosted natural supplements and that

>was that. My wife works in a drug store and comes in contact with sick

>people all the time. She gets the " flu " a couple of times a year but at

>first onset she takes a massive dose of vitamin C (60-100 grams for 1st day)

>and by morning it is gone. She used to get a lot sicker for longer with

>shots than now.

>

>I think there is a time and place for everything. I would hate to be

>without a tetanus shot if needed. I would hate to not have antibiotics if

>needed. You just have to know how to build the body up after using them if

>they are necessary. If they can be avoided, the should be. Less is better.

>

>Bruce Guilmette, PhD

>

>Survive Cancer Foundation, Inc.

>

> <http://survivecancer.net> Http://survivecancer.net

>

>Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.

>Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matt 6:34 (NIV)

>

> _____

>

>From: nutrition

>[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of Heidi

>Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:39 PM

>nutrition

>Subject: Re: OT when doctors lie to you

>

>Bruce Guilmette PhD wrote:

>

>>Do you understand the premise of how vaccines work? In general, you need

>>

>to

>

>>have a culture from the exact thing you are trying to prevent before you

>>

>can

>

>>create a vaccine. That is why sometimes even with a flu shot you can

>>

>still

>

>>get the flu. You were not inoculated for the strain that happened by you

>>

>at

>

>>the time.

>>

>

>Right. This year though, they hit the nail in the head

>exactly, and the folks who got the shot did NOT get sick

>(or if they did get the flu, got it very mildly, but

>my dh's doc said he didn't see any cases at all

>in the folks with shots).

>

>>The great tragedy with the bird flu " threat " is that by the time they get

>>

>an

>

>>actual vaccine that works, roughly 8 - 10 months will have passed and the

>>significant damage will have come and gone. So, relying upon the premise

>>that you can get a shot to stop the bird flu is frankly a joke.

>>

>

>Well, not really a joke. The vaccine absolutely works on chickens.

>This last outbreak is attributed to the fact that they

>didn't vaccinate the *small* flocks, and so there

>were some sick birds in the households. The Chinese

>had more or less eradicated it in the big production

>flocks for several years.

>

>Personally I'd rather the chickens get vaccinated

>than the people. That will probably keep it from

>mutating to a point that it makes a lot of people

>ill. It seems like all the flus currently

>crop up in Asia, where they keep ducks and pigs

>together. We *can* stop the flu, if the Asians

>(esp. the Chinese) change some of their farming

>practices.

>

>As for the 8-10 month delay ... I think everyone

>acknowledges that, which is why there is this

>big deal over Tamiflu. They are also looking at

>coming up with better ways of developing vaccines.

>The one that uses gold dust with virus peptides

>embedded in it looks like a good one. The current

>vaccine methodology is VERY old and kludgy and

>in need of revamping. Using methods that keep

>the virus from replicating ... anything

>from saline washes to elderberries to whatever ...

>looks promising too. One thing the AIDS epidemic

>has done is change the way science looks at

>viruses, which is a great thing!

>

>It is a

>

>>placebo to placate those who have been victimized by the created hysteria.

>>I am not saying that there is no threat. Far from it. What I am saying

>>

>is

>

>>that you cannot rely upon the concept that there will be a quick fix if

>>

>and

>

>>when a pandemic might occur. It just will not happen. There is no known

>>technology that will allow the culturing and production of significant

>>amounts of any form of vaccine in less than 15 months as of today. To

>>

>even

>

>>be able to get it down to 8 or 9 months would almost be a miracle in the

>>making.

>>

>

>Well, I agree it takes awhile. But look at it this way:

>every year we make vast amounts of vaccine to new

>flus. Every year. The avian flu is different, and so

>they really need to start work NOW, but the time it

>takes for a flu to get from China to here is still enough

>that every year they can identify the top 3-5 strains and

>make enough vaccine for the US.

>

>>You are much better off with proper nutrition as the mainstay against

>>disease in general. If it is a viral infection, nothing is going to work

>>anyhow. It just has to run its course.

>>

>

>So you think all the new antivirals are just hooey? How about

>elderberry extract and garlic and lauric acid other chemicals that

>have been shown to have antivirual properties?

>

>>I have had a friend's wife and one cousin both die from adverse reactions

>>

>to

>

>>vaccines. Until 2 years ago, I would have gladly stepped up and let them

>>shoot me up. NEVER AGAIN with what I have learned in the past year and a

>>half.

>>

>

>That is very sad. But did anyone investigate exactly what

>caused the 'adverse reaction'? Was it a bad batch?

>An egg allergy? Or do you think anything injected is

>just basically a bad thing?

>

>-- Heidi

>

March 12, 2006

>

> Message: 12

> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:35:56 -0500

> From: " Bruce Guilmette PhD " <bruce@...>

> Subject: RE: OT when doctors lie to you

>

> You are much better off with proper nutrition as the mainstay against

> disease in general. If it is a viral infection, nothing is going to work

> anyhow. It just has to run its course. All you can possibly do with

> antibiotics and other drugs is to minimize the collateral damage. They

> will

> not stop the virus itself. If you use antibiotics, then you also need to

> consider following up with a good dose of probiotic enzymes afterwards to

> rebuild the friendly bacteria in your gut. That will also help reduce or

> eliminate the problems associated with candida overgrowth (yeast

> infections)

> that are prevalent in nearly everyone who has had a course of antibiotics

> lasting more than a week.

>

> I have had a friend's wife and one cousin both die from adverse reactions

> to

> vaccines. Until 2 years ago, I would have gladly stepped up and let them

> shoot me up. NEVER AGAIN with what I have learned in the past year and a

> half.

>

Well on the other side of the coin, in 1947 my mother was a healthy 24 year

old in Iowa living with my father on the family farm. The extended family

grew and put up (canning, fermenting (i.e.sauerkraut), smoking) most their

own food. That year polio hit the area and my mother developed a terrible

case - in an iron lung for over a year and paraplegic afterwards.

The same thing happened to my husband's aunt in Wisconsin in 1951 (IIRC).

In Aunt Jean's case, she was able to walk with leg braces but her diaphragm

was partially paralyzed which compromised her lung function for the rest of

her life.

I know that they would've rather taken their chances with a vaccine than

live with the aftermath of polio.

Chris

March 12, 2006

My brain was on park last night. A couple of other notes here:

The reason it works on fowl is that the strain in the birds has NOT

radically mutated. They have had literally years to make the current

vaccine work. If and when the H15N version mutates within birds, the

current vaccine will not be as effective and they will need to start over.

The problem with people vaccines will be that when it finally mutates so

that people to people contact is confirmed, then that kettle of fish is a

whole new ballgame. That is when the clock starts ticking as to how long it

takes to produce billions of vaccine doses. Then when it mutates again,

which it will do, the clock starts over. That is the real issue. Nothing

we have now appears to help in any significant way. Maybe we will get lucky

and the mutated (spreadable form from person to person) version will change

in such a manner that current things work, but that would be a one in a

billion shot of good luck.

Again, if you want to have whatever vaccine is used, go for it. What you

choose to do for you is fine by me. It does not matter to me as long as no

one tries to force me to have it.

Regards,

Bruce Guilmette, PhD

Survive Cancer Foundation, Inc.

<http://survivecancer.net> Http://survivecancer.net

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.

Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matt 6:34 (NIV)

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of Bruce Guilmette

PhD

Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:57 PM

nutrition

Subject: RE: OT when doctors lie to you

Actually it does not work all that well on foul. About a 40% success rate

was the last published thing I saw. Most certainly I would rather have

birds get shots than people.

The problem is that wild birds will spread it with migratory patterns and

even if relatively well contained, it will eventually spread.

Tamaflu only works if used within 48 hours of contact and that is a 60% fix.

That is latest published statistic from CDC.

Anti-viral from natural substances is a better fix than synthetics. What

most people discount is that it is more than just one thing in the natural

product that makes it successful. There is a synergistic effect going on

that does enhance the primary ingredient which when isolated is no where

near as effective as when used in conjunction with the other compounds in

the plant. Same issue all the way through with synthetic drugs versus

natural cures. The synthetics can be more potent, but that is not

necessarily the answer.

One was bad batch and the other was allergic reaction. Either case is

unacceptable. I do not think that most people are better off with a flu

shot. I am now going on 9 years without one simply because I used to get

sick from the shot and got tired of being sicker from the cure than what it

was fighting. I changed the diet and boosted natural supplements and that

was that. My wife works in a drug store and comes in contact with sick

people all the time. She gets the " flu " a couple of times a year but at

first onset she takes a massive dose of vitamin C (60-100 grams for 1st day)

and by morning it is gone. She used to get a lot sicker for longer with

shots than now.

I think there is a time and place for everything. I would hate to be

without a tetanus shot if needed. I would hate to not have antibiotics if

needed. You just have to know how to build the body up after using them if

they are necessary. If they can be avoided, the should be. Less is better.

Bruce Guilmette, PhD

Survive Cancer Foundation, Inc.

<http://survivecancer.net> Http://survivecancer.net

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.

Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matt 6:34 (NIV)

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of Heidi

Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:39 PM

nutrition

Subject: Re: OT when doctors lie to you

Bruce Guilmette PhD wrote:

> Do you understand the premise of how vaccines work? In general, you need

to

> have a culture from the exact thing you are trying to prevent before you

can

> create a vaccine. That is why sometimes even with a flu shot you can

still

> get the flu. You were not inoculated for the strain that happened by you

at

> the time.

Right. This year though, they hit the nail in the head

exactly, and the folks who got the shot did NOT get sick

(or if they did get the flu, got it very mildly, but

my dh's doc said he didn't see any cases at all

in the folks with shots).

> The great tragedy with the bird flu " threat " is that by the time they get

an

> actual vaccine that works, roughly 8 - 10 months will have passed and the

> significant damage will have come and gone. So, relying upon the premise

> that you can get a shot to stop the bird flu is frankly a joke.

Well, not really a joke. The vaccine absolutely works on chickens.

This last outbreak is attributed to the fact that they

didn't vaccinate the *small* flocks, and so there

were some sick birds in the households. The Chinese

had more or less eradicated it in the big production

flocks for several years.

Personally I'd rather the chickens get vaccinated

than the people. That will probably keep it from

mutating to a point that it makes a lot of people

ill. It seems like all the flus currently

crop up in Asia, where they keep ducks and pigs

together. We *can* stop the flu, if the Asians

(esp. the Chinese) change some of their farming

practices.

As for the 8-10 month delay ... I think everyone

acknowledges that, which is why there is this

big deal over Tamiflu. They are also looking at

coming up with better ways of developing vaccines.

The one that uses gold dust with virus peptides

embedded in it looks like a good one. The current

vaccine methodology is VERY old and kludgy and

in need of revamping. Using methods that keep

the virus from replicating ... anything

from saline washes to elderberries to whatever ...

looks promising too. One thing the AIDS epidemic

has done is change the way science looks at

viruses, which is a great thing!

It is a

> placebo to placate those who have been victimized by the created hysteria.

> I am not saying that there is no threat. Far from it. What I am saying

is

> that you cannot rely upon the concept that there will be a quick fix if

and

> when a pandemic might occur. It just will not happen. There is no known

> technology that will allow the culturing and production of significant

> amounts of any form of vaccine in less than 15 months as of today. To

even

> be able to get it down to 8 or 9 months would almost be a miracle in the

> making.

Well, I agree it takes awhile. But look at it this way:

every year we make vast amounts of vaccine to new

flus. Every year. The avian flu is different, and so

they really need to start work NOW, but the time it

takes for a flu to get from China to here is still enough

that every year they can identify the top 3-5 strains and

make enough vaccine for the US.

> You are much better off with proper nutrition as the mainstay against

> disease in general. If it is a viral infection, nothing is going to work

> anyhow. It just has to run its course.

So you think all the new antivirals are just hooey? How about

elderberry extract and garlic and lauric acid other chemicals that

have been shown to have antivirual properties?

> I have had a friend's wife and one cousin both die from adverse reactions

to

> vaccines. Until 2 years ago, I would have gladly stepped up and let them

> shoot me up. NEVER AGAIN with what I have learned in the past year and a

> half.

That is very sad. But did anyone investigate exactly what

caused the 'adverse reaction'? Was it a bad batch?

An egg allergy? Or do you think anything injected is

just basically a bad thing?

-- Heidi

March 12, 2006

As one of those who views my pets as an integral part of the family, I agree

with you that animal vaccines (as well as other animal products) do not have the

level or testing and purity that they ought to have.

I just recently started feeding my dog, Hitch, home prepared food. It's too soon

to judge how it will effect his health, but he has LOTS more energy and

certainly eats every speck of his food (he was never very fond of kibble or

stuff like that, and I fed him the " good " stuff). Once he gets more accustomed

to this, I'll try him on some fermented foods too.

Re: OT when doctors lie to you

Deanna wrote:

> We have never gotten flu shots. I haven't had a flu since 1994 <knock

> on wood>. Both boys got a bad flu 2 years ago with high temps that I

> think I reduced with Tylenol. It is just one of those things that I am

> very ambivalent about in general, but hope that I have done my best in

> each year that goes by. I may yet take the jab, who knows (but I hope

> not). Since we homeschool and eat so well now, I feel the risk is less

> than for city dwellers with bad diets and compromised immunity. I guess

> I might get emotional if I lost someone to the flu, or they were hurt by

> vaccination (which actually could be with the MMR and my asd ds, but I

> can't be sure about it, nor can I do anything about it, so why get in a

> tizzy?).

Right. For most people, the risk of dying from the flu

is minimal, so the issue of getting the shot gets really

iffy. I rarely get even colds anymore myself. I DID get

a very bad flu one year which scared the daylights

out of me, and since I have a kid who is " borderline "

in many ways, that in " flu " ences my thoughts a lot.

I did lose a kitten once to a vaccine: it got the shot

and died an hour later. Bad batch? Anaphalactic shock?

So the next cat I didn't vaccinate: and it died of a cat virus.

I don't think animal vaccines are well tested though,

and I've never had another animal get sick from

a vaccine (or any human I've known personally, other

than minor symptoms of the virus in question in

some cases ... didn't the smallpox shot make a little

scab way back when?).

> Polio, meningitis, streptococcus and now avian flu are real threats,

> especially with the human population skyrocketing to very unsustainable

> levels and unsound factory farming practices. Polio has been found in

> the Amish community in MN recently btw, so it is a risk to go without

> vaccination (a risk most Americans are not familiar with because of its

> former eradication). And I do have a few chickens here and think about

> avian flu and options. I may vaccinate them, I don't know. If I don't

> and the bird flu hits my neck of the woods, I may slaughter them. Heck,

> with the feds and states trying to force this animal tracking business,

> it may be too much hassle to keep them anyway. And that is sad, as they

> are such a vital part of my budding homestead ecology.

I've been debating that with my chooks. I have chickens AND ducks,

and the ducks can carry avian flu and not get sick. It

doesn't seem to exist around here at this point, but

I'm not sure what I'll do if it gets here. It seems

to have migrated to the wild bird community, which

means wiping it out will be very difficult if not

impossible. I kinda expect that most chicks will

end up being vaccinated before they are sold, and

it will end up being one of those " background dangers "

of life, like malaria and AIDS.

-- Heidi

March 12, 2006

Flu vaccines are generally a crap shoot, but they're the best that technology

has to offer at the moment. It's a lot of guesswork as far as what important

antigens to include for what is suspected to be the important strain that year.

I generally don't bother with them, I think I was the only person at my place of

employment NOT to take one this season when it was offered. As you note,

antibiotics are useless except against secondary infections. Antivirals may

provide some protection, but you have to be quick at using them at onset. Best

to try to keep natural immunity up, probably one reason most of us are here on

this group. At least if you do get sick from influenza, you might avoid some of

the other side-infections that can make things worse.