Re: Fiber for dogs

[Guest guest]

it's really an interesting topic. could you tell us whether the type

of fibers given would also matter (insoluble vs soluble fibers)?

thanks.

hermin

[Guest guest]

" it's really an interesting topic. could you tell us

whether the type

of fibers given would also matter (insoluble vs

soluble fibers)?

thanks.

hermin "

Dear Hermin;

The more soluble a fiber the greater the

degradability. The fibers I listed are very soluble.

Pectins are also highly soluble.

Lark

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Lark wrote:

>First, I meant to ask if you fed vegetables or not. I

know there are feeding strategies that span the gamut

of raw foods, so I'd like to know what you do and do

not feed.

I don't go out of my way to feed veggies. Since the raw diet is loosely

modeled on what a wolf would eat in the wild, there is constant discussion on

whether or not a wolf eats stomach contents, and the concensus is that they do

not. The fact that our dogs help themselves to fruit and berries apparently

doesn't count, as they also eat paper goods, soft toys, etc. etc. {LOL}

My dogs get " occasional " veggies from me, in the form of raw brocolli stems,

carrots, and caulifower and the odd cooked leftovers. They frequently get a

meal of raw green tripe (phew!) They are lucky to have frequent off-leash

walks, and help themselves to grasses and wild bamboo. They also indulge in

rabbit and deer droppings, which no doubt add a little je ne c'est quois to

their diet! I believe that veggies are of no use unless they are pulverized,

cooked or frozen (to break down the lignin) and that is another reason why

people do not believe that veggies play much of a role in the diet of the wolf,

since wolves tend not to use freezers, grinders or stoves to process their

veggies {G}

>You may or not know that fiber is only degraded by

bacterial enzymes, not mammalian. The prime sites for

microbial fermentation in mammals are the stomach and

the colon, transit through the small intestine is too

rapid for much microbial action. Because dogs have a

short colon, which is the primary site of fiber

fermentation, easily degraded fibers would be best.

These include flax seed, beet pulp, FOS or inulin.

These fiber sources have other benefits as well: small

amounts may be considered prebiotic, they select for

beneficial organisms. Whole flax seed is also rich in

oil and is good for the skin and hair coat.

The problem with flax seed is that many dogs tend to be allergic to it. Worse

than that, I have read that it is much more difficult for dogs to process (for

its Omega 3's) than fish oil. Surely, whole flax seeds would exit in much the

same way that they went in? I know that is the case in humans!

Beet pulp has a bad rap because it is said that it's use in kibble is mainly to

produce firm stools. I recently did a search to try to find out if it's really

bad, and didn't turn up anything negative though so I'm open to suggestion :-)

FOS and inulin. We just discussed this. Was it here or at Native Nutrition?

and I'm not so sure that it's good for us. I think I read that it doesn't

discriminate as to which bacteria (good or bad) it feeds, and I've decided to

leave it out of my diet....... Do you think that if we and our dogs have a

regular intake of probiotics it's all that necessary to worry about feeding

them?

and the K9's

[Guest guest]

Dear ;

I’m sorry, I should have said ‘freshly-ground whole

flaxseed’. It needs to be fresh because the fat

oxidizes and lowers the nutritional value (not to

mention palatability). The flax seed is a supplement

to the regular diet, if you are concerned that the

omega-3 in flax seed are not enough or whatever, make

sure you feed something else with fat as well.

The fat is the real difference between beet pulp and

flax seed, both are excellent sources of soluble

fiber. Flax seed is very good for humans, I highly

recommend it for everyone in your household.

As for the wolves as models and the whole raw feeding

discussion, I will have to agree to disagree. I am

afraid that neither of us will be able to convince the

other, please let it lie.

Lark

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[Guest guest]

> Surely, whole flax seeds would exit in much the same way that they

went in? I know that is the case in humans!

It would, but whole flax seed would still provide the soluble fibre,

which is in the seed coat.

> FOS and inulin. We just discussed this.

> Was it here or at Native Nutrition?

I believe one of the eminent members at NN has a " specific " bias against

any fermentation in the gut occurring at all, if I recall correctly, and

inulin is " illegal " don't you know.....

> I think I read that it doesn't discriminate as to which bacteria (good

or bad) it feeds

Inulin does discriminate preferentially in favor of beneficial bacteria,

to a high degree. Much more so than most soluble fibres. All soluble

fibre feeds bacteria in the gut but inulin is one of the best for

promoting the growth of beneficial species.

Inulin - A Comprehensive Scientific Review

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

> and I've decided to leave it out of my diet.......

Unless you stop eating all vegetable material you will be getting inulin

in your diet. Inulin is one of the main polysaccharides used by plants

to store energy. Onions and garlic are particularly rich in inulin.

> Do you think that if we and our dogs have a regular intake of

> probiotics it's all that necessary to worry about feeding them?

The only way the beneficial bacteria will grow and compete with the

undesirable organisms in the gut and on the wall of the gut, which is

more important, is if the beneficial bacteria have a food source, i.e. a

source of fermentable soluble fibre.

Imo, prebiotics are more effective at increasing the populations of

desirable bacteria in the gut than are probiotics. Also naturally

fermented foods for the most part contain only species that are

transient and do not implant on the colon wall or have permanent

residence in the gut.

regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

Dear Lark and Bruce,

I'll try the ground flax seed for my dogs although I cannot understand how a

hard seed coat can be soluble fibre, if it has to be ground to get the oil out

and it passes through the digestive tract unharmed (or does it?) I'm not trying

to be argumentative - honest! Can you please explain?

Where would one get beet pulp?

How about apple as a source of soluble fibre for dogs? I CAN understand how an

apple can be soluble fibre {LOL}

I only brought up the wolf diet to explain *my* reason for not feeding much in

the way of veggies to my dogs. I know it can lead to a huge debate which is

not something we need to do here, and it's only really of interest to those who

feed a raw diet.

Cheers,

and the K9's

[Guest guest]

Hi

I don't have any technical knowledge of flax seed, but if you have some around

just put a little in a bowl, add a little water, and let it sit a bit. Pretty

soon the seeds (and water if you only added a little) will feel slippery and

slimey. That is the soluble fiber! Flax also has insoluble fiber, but it needs

to be ground to access that (and the benificial oils).

-------------- Original message --------------

Dear Lark and Bruce,

I'll try the ground flax seed for my dogs although I cannot understand how a

hard seed coat can be soluble fibre, if it has to be ground to get the oil out

and it passes through the digestive tract unharmed (or does it?) I'm not trying

to be argumentative - honest! Can you please explain?

[Guest guest]

Bruce wrote:

>I believe one of the eminent members at NN has a " specific " bias against

any fermentation in the gut occurring at all, if I recall correctly, and

inulin is " illegal " don't you know.....

Ha ha! I know who you mean, and it's a battle he won't let you win!

>Inulin - A Comprehensive Scientific Review

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

Thanks. Very interesting reading!

>> and I've decided to leave it out of my diet.......

Unless you stop eating all vegetable material you will be getting inulin

in your diet. Inulin is one of the main polysaccharides used by plants

to store energy. Onions and garlic are particularly rich in inulin.

You're right. I should have said that I won't buy the commercially-prepared

insulin/FOS, and *thought* it was only obtainable in such things as chicory and

artichokes (which I don't eat).

Chek out : http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/conspiracy/conspiracy.html

3. Inulin/FOS feeds only good bacteria, right?

Wrong. Manufacturers claim that Inulin/FOS specifically feeds only good

bacteria. The reality of the situation is much different. If you examine the

scientific literature about Inulin/FOS, you will find that this is untrue. The

best example is concerning Klebsiella. Recent studies have shown that Inulin/FOS

encourages the growth of Klebsiella, a bacterium implicated in Ankylosing

Spondylitis and increased intestinal permeability. Inulin/FOS may indeed promote

the growth of lactobacillus bacteria, but what other potentially harmful

bacteria are we feeding as well? Furthermore, we have not even addressed the

issue of yeast. Many different species of yeast are able to utilize Inulin/FOS

for energy.

5. Is Inulin/FOS found naturally anywhere?

Yes. It is found naturally in asparagus, garlic, Jerusalem Artichokes, chicory

root, and others.

6. Since Inulin/FOS is found in natural foods it must be okay, right?

Wrong. Sucrose (table sugar) is naturally found in beets, sugar cane, oranges,

and other plants. Humans have perverted this naturally occurring substance into

a refined chemical. Sucrose is arguably one of the most unhealthy food additives

in human history. We should learn from our experiences with sucrose and apply

them to Inulin/FOS. Instead of adding refined, super concentrated Inulin/FOS to

your food, eat the foods that naturally contain Inulin/FOS.

The body is genetically adapted to certain foods and if we continue to mess with

our food chain then our health will suffer the consequences. Of the nutritional

fibers, cellulose was the most likely to be included in a traditional

hunter-gatherer diet. Cellulose is an insoluble fiber that is slowly fermented

by the microbial population in the human colon. Inulin/FOS is a soluble fiber

that is quickly and easily fermented. The difference between cellulose (a food

we are adapted to) and Inulin/FOS (a food we are not adapted to) is like the

difference between a slow burning ember and a raging fire. Who likes playing

with fire?

>The only way the beneficial bacteria will grow and compete with the

undesirable organisms in the gut and on the wall of the gut, which is

more important, is if the beneficial bacteria have a food source, i.e. a

source of fermentable soluble fibre.

>Imo, prebiotics are more effective at increasing the populations of

desirable bacteria in the gut than are probiotics. Also naturally

fermented foods for the most part contain only species that are

transient and do not implant on the colon wall or have permanent

residence in the gut.

Thanks. I'm really wanted to try my " problem " dog on small amounts of beets and

flax seed to see if it helps her digestion, but since she has yeast problems I

don't think I can risk giving her prebiotics that will feed the yeast :-(

and the K9's

[Guest guest]

Bruce wrote:

http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/conspiracy/conspiracy.html

>The biggest problem I have with this article is that it is full of emotionally

charged unbased opinion and falsehood in place of scientific facts.

But it's nice and easy to read, and they do cite the scientific jounals at the

bottom of the page. Unfortunately, it's not easy to find these references

online :-(

and the K9's