Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 ----- Original Message ----- From: " katja " > ok, now that we're casein free, i have some kefir questions... > > i know that some people can tolerate kefir, but i'm not going to try that > for a while. however, what about the whey? i think michael said that whey > is casein free - do we know that for sure? does the whey have any calcium > in it? (i bet i could google for that...) Dunno about the calcium, but my guys cannot tolerate cow or goat's milk <sob> but seem to tolerate whey. > and why couldn't i just toss some kefir grains into coconut milk and get > coconut kefir? That's what we do. --s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 @@@ Katja: > ok, now that we're casein free, i have some kefir questions... @@@ Ouch! But, yeah, as much as I'm addicted to milk/kefir, I could totally go dairy-free tomorrow without blinking (okay, yeah, it would be drag) because there are just so many foods in the world... There's nothing in milk you can't easily get from other common foods. @@@ Katja: > i know that some people can tolerate kefir, but i'm not going to try that > for a while. however, what about the whey? i think michael said that whey > is casein free - do we know that for sure? does the whey have any calcium > in it? (i bet i could google for that...) @@@ I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the casein is pre-digested in kefir, but probably not enough for casein-intolerant people. Whey is casein-free by definition, but I suppose you'd want to be extra-thorough in straining, because some milk solids typically make it past the cheesecloth. I guess if the whey is a homogeneous color without cloudy white parts you're in good shape. Whey retains a lot of the calcium in milk, at least according to USDA data (usda.shim.net). Whey still ranks as a very concentrated source of calcium. If it's relevant, note that whey is a very high-carb food, so low-carbers probably wouldn't want to drink it by the quart. @@@ Katja: > and why couldn't i just toss some kefir grains into coconut milk and get > coconut kefir? @@@ Lots of people do that. And there are tons of other water kefirs you can make. All you need is a sugar source, and coconut has enough. Besides coconut milk water kefir, you can use coconut water to make coconut water water kefir. You can use seed drinks like almond water, legume water, etc. Often people use refined sugar or honey mixed with some fruit to get various flavors. There will definitely be plenty of probiotic benefits to any of these water kefirs, even if they don't have exactly the same benefits of fermented milk. Here are some links to Dom's material on water kefir: http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/vegmilk.html#SNM-kefir http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Kefir-d-acqua So you can definitely put your grains to use while you're testing the casein thing. Just reserve a portion of kefir grains for possible future milk kefir use because grains don't revert back to milk kefir very well after being used for water kefir. You can also use your kefir grains to make kefir whey. Mike SE Pennsylvania The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 At 11:49 AM 10/25/2004, you wrote: >@@@ Katja: > > ok, now that we're casein free, i have some kefir questions... >@@@ > >Ouch! But, yeah, as much as I'm addicted to milk/kefir, I could >totally go dairy-free tomorrow without blinking (okay, yeah, it would >be drag) because there are just so many foods in the world... There's >nothing in milk you can't easily get from other common foods. you're right. of course, my brain is mostly out the window right now, so anything you want to list would be supportive the funny thing is, when i read the lab results yesterday, i was OVERCOME with a desire for fish. (shrimp and haddock, specifically). i mean, not just " hm, fish would be nice " , but OVERCOME. so i bought 5 lbs of coldwater shrimp and some haddock (even though it's overharvested. i figured this was an emergency.) >@@@ Katja: > > i know that some people can tolerate kefir, but i'm not going to try that > > for a while. however, what about the whey? i think michael said that whey > > is casein free - do we know that for sure? does the whey have any calcium > > in it? (i bet i could google for that...) >@@@ > >I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the casein is pre-digested in >kefir, but probably not enough for casein-intolerant people. Whey is >casein-free by definition, but I suppose >you'd want to be extra-thorough in straining, because some milk solids >typically make it past the cheesecloth. I guess if the whey is a >homogeneous color without cloudy white parts you're in good shape. yeah, ok. i was thinking that too. i can just double strain it - no problem. >Whey retains a lot of the calcium in milk, at least according to USDA >data (usda.shim.net). Whey still ranks as a very concentrated source >of calcium. good! this makes me happy! >If it's relevant, note that whey is a very high-carb food, so >low-carbers probably wouldn't want to drink it by the quart. indeed. of course, i don't think i COULD drink it by the quart. but a few ounces every day i can do. >@@@ Katja: > > and why couldn't i just toss some kefir grains into coconut milk and get > > coconut kefir? >@@@ > >Lots of people do that. And there are tons of other water kefirs you >can make. All you need is a sugar source, and coconut has enough. well see, i've been doing that with all kinds of liquids. i just thought maybe there were some weird things with coconut. >Besides coconut milk water kefir, you can use coconut water to make >coconut water water kefir. You can use seed drinks like almond >water, legume water, etc. Often people use refined sugar or honey >mixed with some fruit to get various flavors. There will definitely >be plenty of probiotic benefits to any of these water kefirs, even if >they don't have exactly the same benefits of fermented milk. Here >are some links to Dom's material on water kefir: >http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir >http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/vegmilk.html#SNM-kefir >http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Kefir-d-acqua > >So you can definitely put your grains to use while you're testing the >casein thing. Just reserve a portion of kefir grains for possible >future milk kefir use because grains don't revert back to milk kefir >very well after being used for water kefir. You can also use your >kefir grains to make kefir whey. well, we're not testing. amber's enterolab results were a whopping 247!!!! so there's no test involved, we're casein free and that's that. i'll still make kefir anyway for the whey, and feed the rest to the chickens...plus i need to continue producing colonies for my clients thanks! katja >Mike >SE Pennsylvania > >The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 >>I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the casein is pre-digested in >>kefir, but probably not enough for casein-intolerant people. Whey is >>casein-free by definition, but I suppose >>you'd want to be extra-thorough in straining, because some milk solids >>typically make it past the cheesecloth. I guess if the whey is a >>homogeneous color without cloudy white parts you're in good shape. I personally react to butter (which is pretty low casein) but not generally to kefir. I never thought I reacted to casein, but once I was off it for awhile I noticed that when I get some I get intensely COLD in an hour or two (rather, the room temp drops by 10 degrees, I swear! It's the " poltergeist effect " !). That said, there's no proven way to " know " if a person is reacting or not, except for watching the IgA levels and see if they go up or down. There is some good research that indicates that if you FULLY ferment wheat, there is no gut-level reaction to it. Since milk ferments more completely than wheat does, I'd guess that kefir *might* be ok. And if it's just the whey part .... The reaction to casein doesn't seem to be as deadly as the gluten one ... I mean, there are loads of kids who wind up in the emergency rooms on IV's from gluten and it's been a known problem for hundreds of years, but there's no such parallel for casein. So I'm a lot less careful about casein, personally. I think the fact milk is *liquid* means it is more digestible to begin with. My main problem is cheddar cheese, and I think it reaches the gut semi-digested. >> the funny thing is, when i read the lab results yesterday, i was OVERCOME with a desire for fish. (shrimp and haddock, specifically). i mean, not just " hm, fish would be nice " , but OVERCOME. so i bought 5 lbs of coldwater shrimp and some haddock (even though it's overharvested. i figured this was an emergency.) Now this is funny! I've been on an anchovy kick for the last year or more, but I never put it together with my lack of dairy! I bought some " pickled " anchovies at the Korean store, they are chopped a bit and in salty sauce kinda like kimchi, but they are basically raw and full of bones. And I crave them! Also I made a new batch of kimchi that is LOADED with dried anchovies and shrimp (pulverized, with shells and bones) and I'm craving that too. I started really craving the store kimchi, but not my own, so I'm using a more Korean-like recipe which is more full of fish sauce. The article from the other list, about VitD (internally produced) causing weight gain, mentioned that calcium might be a " marker " for food intake, because Paleo food was soooo loaded with calcium (mainly from whole bugs, fish eaten with the bones, whole baby birds). Korean food is loaded with calcium ... they eat no dairy ... >well see, i've been doing that with all kinds of liquids. i just thought >maybe there were some weird things with coconut. I haven't tried coconut milk kefir, mainly because I just like plain coconut milk so much! But I should. My " kefir porter " has become a hit around here ... using molasses and some good hops, it's a real decent porter by any standard, and the probiotic effects are the same, for me, as kefir. >well, we're not testing. amber's enterolab results were a whopping 247!!!! >so there's no test involved, we're casein free and that's that. i'll still >make kefir anyway for the whey, and feed the rest to the chickens...plus i >need to continue producing colonies for my clients There are gluten test kids that test for TINY amounts of gluten in foods ... some folks have tested supermarket " gluten free " foods with them. I wonder if there is such a test for casein? Likely there is ... THAT would end the guessing ... Also, if she is eating no casein except the whey and her IgA numbers go down (they should, within a year or so, maybe quicker) then you can assume the whey isn't a problem. > Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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