Re: Yeast products with/without oxygen

[Guest guest]

Hi Darrell,

Normally it is an anerobic environment that prompts certain yeasts to

produce alcohol. But I think lactic acid producing bacteria function

anerobically too.

In my own honest opinion based on the nature of most ferments, the

best results come from an anerobic fermentation. Now before you go and

say I'm wrong about Kombucha, this is a tricky beast.. It is aerobic

to an extent but when the scoby is fully formed it changes to a rather

anerobic ferment, the scoby creates a barrier. Co2 flushes the oxygen

from the tea, then the scoby helps to maintain positive pressure,

keeping out the oxygen.

This is my own theory, it is how I explain the formation and purpose

of the scoby. When the scoby is formed then the yeast can produce more

alcohol for the scoby/acid producing bacteria because of the more

anerobic environment..

I still don't understand if the bacteria that forms the scoby is

responsible for anything besides just the formation of the scoby or

what exactly it uses for food?.

Beau

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0600, Darrell <lazlo75501@...> wrote:

>

> There is a discussion on another list about whether yeast make less or

> more alcohol under anaerobic conditions in kefir and kombucha. Which

> condition causes yeast to switch to making organic acids and carbon

> dioxide rather than excess alcohol?

>

> Darrell

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Uh, yeah Heidi's right, I guess yeast does always produce alcohol and

or Co2. Right?

I mean can some yeasts produce anything else?

Beau

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:20:09 -0800, Beau Barrett <beau.barrett@...> wrote:

> Hi Darrell,

> Normally it is an anerobic environment that prompts certain yeasts to

> produce alcohol. But I think lactic acid producing bacteria function

> anerobically too.

> In my own honest opinion based on the nature of most ferments, the

> best results come from an anerobic fermentation. Now before you go and

> say I'm wrong about Kombucha, this is a tricky beast.. It is aerobic

> to an extent but when the scoby is fully formed it changes to a rather

> anerobic ferment, the scoby creates a barrier. Co2 flushes the oxygen

> from the tea, then the scoby helps to maintain positive pressure,

> keeping out the oxygen.

> This is my own theory, it is how I explain the formation and purpose

> of the scoby. When the scoby is formed then the yeast can produce more

> alcohol for the scoby/acid producing bacteria because of the more

> anerobic environment..

> I still don't understand if the bacteria that forms the scoby is

> responsible for anything besides just the formation of the scoby or

> what exactly it uses for food?.

> Beau

>

>

>

> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0600, Darrell <lazlo75501@...> wrote:

> >

> > There is a discussion on another list about whether yeast make less or

> > more alcohol under anaerobic conditions in kefir and kombucha. Which

> > condition causes yeast to switch to making organic acids and carbon

> > dioxide rather than excess alcohol?

> >

> > Darrell

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>There is a discussion on another list about whether yeast make less or

>more alcohol under anaerobic conditions in kefir and kombucha. Which

>condition causes yeast to switch to making organic acids and carbon

>dioxide rather than excess alcohol?

>

>Darrell

AFAIK yeast always produces alcohol and CO2 ... the bacteria are what produce

acids. If you kill off the bacteria (as you do in homebrewing beer) you get

ALL alcohol, usually in an anaerobic environment but they grow fine

with air too (keeping the air out keeps out the bacteria though).

It is generally considered that if you have a 5% sugar solution you get 5%

alcohol.

In kefir and kombucha, if you

want less alcohol, you need to suppress the yeast. I'm not sure what conditions

are more encouraging to yeast than to bacteria ...

Heidi Jean

The trouble with the world is that the

stupid are cocksure and the

intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

[Guest guest]

>>There is a discussion on another list about whether yeast make less or

more alcohol under anaerobic conditions in kefir and kombucha. Which

condition causes yeast to switch to making organic acids and carbon

dioxide rather than excess alcohol?

Darrell<<

~~~I have no answers about that - only more questions. I just bottled 3 quarts

of kombucha and I don't ever remember it being quite this effervescent before.

(I used to brew it several years ago for a couple of years, but this was my

first batch recently.) When I poured it into the jars, it formed a foam 'head'

about an inch deep, just like beer and smells like beer too, only slightly

sweeter. (I haven't tasted it yet - waiting for it to cool in fridge.) The

reason I mention this here/now, is because when I got the scoby in the mail, it

had a lot of 'ooglies' - those brownish stringy/slimey 'streamers' and sediment

in the bottom. I was told that it's yeast. So, due to all the above, I'm

wondering if this kombucha may be more alcoholic than the norm?

Carol

[Guest guest]

>>In kefir and kombucha, if you

want less alcohol, you need to suppress the yeast. I'm not sure what conditions

are more encouraging to yeast than to bacteria ...

Heidi Jean<<

~~~Well, that makes it sound like my kombucha is more alcoholic then, because it

had a lot of yeast in the brew. I think the reason it did, is because it had

been sitting in someone's fridge for quite awhile. Make sense? Does this also

mean that it will always have a higher yeast content in future batches, because

that particular scoby had a high yeast content, or will that eventually

dissipate back to more of a kombucha 'norm'?

Carol

[Guest guest]

>>I still don't understand if the bacteria that forms the scoby is

responsible for anything besides just the formation of the scoby or

what exactly it uses for food?.

Beau<<

~~~I'm not well versed in this stuff at all, but I thought the sugar in the brew

was the food.....?

Carol

[Guest guest]

Yes sugar is the food, but it gets converted along the way by the

yeast, so what do the " scoby producing " bacteria feed on? Glucose

from the broken down sucrose?

Does this question make sense?

Beau

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:39:35 -0800, Carol <cah@...> wrote:

>

> >>I still don't understand if the bacteria that forms the scoby is

> responsible for anything besides just the formation of the scoby or

> what exactly it uses for food?.

> Beau<<

>

> ~~~I'm not well versed in this stuff at all, but I thought the sugar in the

brew was the food.....?

> Carol

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carol,

Kombucha does not really get " alcoholic " enough that even the most

sensitive individual could notice... but it might get heady and yeasty

tasting.

Your culture will achieve balance after another batch or two..

Beau

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:36:08 -0800, Carol <cah@...> wrote:

>

> >>In kefir and kombucha, if you

> want less alcohol, you need to suppress the yeast. I'm not sure what

conditions

> are more encouraging to yeast than to bacteria ...

> Heidi Jean<<

>

> ~~~Well, that makes it sound like my kombucha is more alcoholic then, because

it had a lot of yeast in the brew. I think the reason it did, is because it had

been sitting in someone's fridge for quite awhile. Make sense? Does this also

mean that it will always have a higher yeast content in future batches, because

that particular scoby had a high yeast content, or will that eventually

dissipate back to more of a kombucha 'norm'?

>

>

> Carol

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>Yes sugar is the food, but it gets converted along the way by the

yeast, so what do the " scoby producing " bacteria feed on? Glucose

from the broken down sucrose?

Does this question make sense?

Beau<<

~~~Well, maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but don't the bacteria just

keep feeding on the sugar through the whole process? I mean, I think the sugar

is used slowly, and is not converted all at once. I know there is still sugar

in the brew after a week or two, according to the charts I've seen of the

breakdown of elements in the tea. On the other hand, I would imagine the

bacteria could use whatever form the sugar takes.

Maybe this is completely different, but I've read that it's a bad idea to eat

sugar if you have a bacteria overgrowth problem in your body, because bacteria

feed on it and multiply that way.

I hope I'm making sense, because I really don't understand how these organisms

work in any in depth way.

Carol

[Guest guest]

>>Carol,

Kombucha does not really get " alcoholic " enough that even the most

sensitive individual could notice... but it might get heady and yeasty

tasting.

Your culture will achieve balance after another batch or two..

Beau<<

~~~Do you think it would be better not to drink this yeasty batch? (Just wait

for the next one? Having had candida overgrowth in the past - and possibly now

- I am a little nervous about anything overly yeasty. But, it smells really

good.)

Carol

[Guest guest]

The traditional Ginger Beer Plant symbiote (not the yeast substitute) produced

lots of carbonation and very little alcohol.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

>>The traditional Ginger Beer Plant symbiote (not the yeast substitute) produced

lots of carbonation and very little alcohol.

Darrell<<

~~~Of course - you are correct. I remember, I used to make root beer years ago

and it was very foamy, with no alcohol. One bottle exploded under the sink and

made a big mess while I was at work! :-)

Carol

[Guest guest]

Heidi Jean

The trouble with the world is that the

stupid are cocksure and the

intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

GREAT QUOTE!!!

[Guest guest]

>~~~Well, that makes it sound like my kombucha is more alcoholic then, because

it had a lot of yeast in the brew. I think the reason it did, is because it had

been sitting in someone's fridge for quite awhile. Make sense? Does this also

mean that it will always have a higher yeast content in future batches, because

that particular scoby had a high yeast content, or will that eventually

dissipate back to more of a kombucha 'norm'?

>Carol

I save the " dregs " in my kefir beer (yellow stuff at the bottom) which has

higher yeast content, and it makes a more fizzy, alcoholic brew. Sally Fallon

says to use whey starter to make a less a less alcoholic brew ... very little

yeast. Probaby if you wash the scoby, or change the solution more often, you'll

get more bacterial content. The scobies don't seem to " hold " as much yeast as

the dregs do.

Heidi Jean

The trouble with the world is that the

stupid are cocksure and the

intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

[Guest guest]

>Heidi Jean

>

>The trouble with the world is that the

>stupid are cocksure and the

>intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand

>

>GREAT QUOTE!!!

-- Thanks!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Yes sugar is the food, but it gets converted along the way by the

>yeast, so what do the " scoby producing " bacteria feed on? Glucose

>from the broken down sucrose?

>Does this question make sense?

>Beau

The bacteria feed on the sugar too. They are competing for the same

food. Or, some bacteria feed on the the output of the yeasts (alcohol).

And some yeasts might feed on output of some bacteria. And some

bacteria feed on the output of other bacteria. They are all one big

happy symbiotic family ... one ferment can produce literally hundreds

of substances, we usually just talk about the major products. In

the industry studies, they talk about the other stuff ... they have isolated

several previously unknown antibiotics from kimchi and kefir ferments,

for instance.

Heidi [HJ] [HTG]

" Cheer up....Things could get worse "

So I cheered up.....and sure enough, things got worse