Re: website, whey and carbohydrates

[Guest guest]

@@@ Carol:

> , would kindly repost the website you listed for the carbohydrate

> content of whey? I am on digest and am having a heck of a time finding your

> original post.

@@@

The closest thing to that in my posts would've just been the good 'ol

USDA database (usda.shim.net), but the problem with that data is that

we have no idea what kind of whey they are using in terms of how it's

made, etc, and they offer no clarification of what's meant by " acid

whey " vs " sweet whey " . So that data is of limited use. I don't

recall any other good links offhand, but the closest thing of

relevance I have in my files is an old NN post from a whey thread.

I'm pasted it below for you just in case it might be useful, and there

are few links in there, but I don't think they answer the question

unfortunately.

[by the way, a better alternative to email digests is to use an email

program that sorts messages into threads automatically for you. I use

Gmail, and Tom Jeanne recently recommended this one:

<http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/>.]

@@@ Carol:

> I recall the amount was around 12 grams per cup. Is this for uncultured

> whey? The reason I as is that one of the ways that I am still able to

> include raw cow's milk in my diet is in the cultured form. Are the little

> buggers eating lactase in the whey - leaving the kefir leban as primarily

> fat?

@@@

I'm assuming your problem with milk is that you can't digest lactose...

The kefir leban would be primarily fat and casein. The little

buggers are definitely eating lactose (not lactase--that's the enzyme

that helps digest lactose) in the whey!! But not all the lactose of

course.

@@@ Carol:

> Even though fermentation is an art, I am still curious to know how much of

> the carbohydrate content of the original food, whether it be dairy,

> nondairy, or vegetable, might be decreased during fermentation. I recall

> reading somewhere that diabetics can benefit from eating fermented foods,

> and it was not so much due to the decreased carbohydrate count as it was due

> to the precence of the microbes. Any thoughts?

@@@

An important part of this topic is the lactic acid produced by the

bacteria. Lactic acid is actually a carb, but it's metabolized

differently than other carbs. So that's one possible source of the

effects, and sometimes people conflate effects due to microbes and

effects due to lactic acid. The microbes themselves could have an

independent effect via their improvement of digestion, but I don't

know much about that. I certainly hope to learn though--that's the

sort of topic I hope we can sort out on this list!! Idol, the

owner of the Native Nutrition group, has a keen interest in this carb

topic, and below I also pasted a brief post from the same whey thread

I mentioned above where he cites some useful info.

Sorry that I don't have any higher quality info....

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

----------------------------------------------------

/message/36672

From: Idol <Idol@c...>

Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:30 am

Subject: Re: composition of whey/acid vs sweet whey

Mike-

Even so, a guy I know on another health/nutrition list posted calculations

that indicate that for every gram of lactic acid, the body recovers 0.8

grams of glucose for metabolism. I haven't checked them, but I expect

they're solid.

>My whey sits out for a few days and has lots of

>time to ferment, so there just **has** to be a difference in lactose

>content. And we need data for kefir whey for comparison!!

-

--------------------------------------------------------------------

/message/36665

From: " Anton " <bwp@u...>

Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:32 am

Subject: composition of whey/acid vs sweet whey

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> http://www.milch-markt.de/e/molke/wertvoll/s6.html

> http://cahpwww.vet.upenn.edu/mun/milk_protein.html

>

> I don't think there is any cow/goat milk that would have 6 or 7%

protein:

>

> http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci308/milkcomp.html

>

> --

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Hi ,

Thanks for the links. I was completely shocked to see how much

lactose is in " acid whey " , confirming what had said. My guess

would've been that the lactose content in the whey I drink

(presumably " acid whey " ?) is close to zero, so this is intriguing.

My understanding was that sweet whey was the result of an industrial,

mechanical processing of milk, very different than old fashioned

fermenting and draining, and I've been left with the assumption that

the latter is what they're calling " acid whey " . I'm completely

shocked that the lactose content for " sweet whey " and " acid whey " are

almost the same, going by both the first link above and the USDA

data!! I can't see how this is possible if enough lactose is being

converted to lactic acid to make it very sour??? Unfortunately no

definition of " acid whey " is given; if anyone has more info on this

please post it! My whey sits out for a few days and has lots of

time to ferment, so there just **has** to be a difference in lactose

content. And we need data for kefir whey for comparison!!

Two other points that caught my attention: the protein content in

whey is really small! For " acid whey " (again, whatever that is), the

protein content is only about 12%, and almost all the rest is

lactose. Less than 2g of protein in 1c of whey! I'm assuming that

whey protein isolates are produced from sweet whey, and I'd be a

little suspicious of the high-power processing needed to do this

without fermentation. I'd also be a little suspicous of the

processing needed to remove the lactose. Not so relevant to me, as

I'd be about the last person in the world to ever consume whey

protein powder...

The other point is that the Ca content in " acid whey " is about twice

that of " sweet whey " according to the USDA data!!?? Something's

going on here! Also, even the amount for " sweet whey " is quite high,

seemingly contradicting the following:

@@@@@@@@@@@ from " milkcomp " page linked above:

They are both mostly associated with the casein micelle structure.

Consequently, whey has relatively little calcium and phosphorous

compared with whole milk.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Using the USDA data, going by mass, and subtracting out water, whole

milk has 9.9mg Ca/g, sweet whey has 6.8, acid whey 15.6, so maybe the

claim applies to whole milk vs sweet whey, but even then " relatively

little " seems inaccurate. Of course, going by mass is nutritionally

meaningless, so looking at the real comparison, we have whole milk at

1.9mg Ca/cal, sweet whey at 1.7, and acid whey at 4.3!!! So whey

looks to be a potentially outstanding source of Ca, but, again,

something significant seems to be going on in acid whey vs sweet

whey. In sum, the lactose, protein, vitamin, and mineral content of

acid and sweet whey are about the same, except the Ca content is

dramatically different, and the the lactose part is really puzzling.

(The other exception is that Zn is more than twice as much in acid

whey). Let's not forget this is all coming from the USDA database,

and it could just be some kind of error. (And their definition

of " whole milk " at 3.25% is certainly not the truly whole milk I

drink!) This goes on my list of future topics to investigate, unless

I'm lucky enough to have someone dump the answers on me (hint

hint).

One final remark is that the third link from has a chart

comparing many different animal's milk, and I didn't even realize

that half of them even made milk! So many opportunities for

culinary experimentation! I can only wonder what whale's milk tastes

like... not to mention wonder what it's like to milk a whale...

Mike

-----------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Very interesting information. I came across a website that explained the

differences between the two being sweet whey is manufactured during making of

rennet type hard cheese like cheddar or Swiss cheese and acid whey (also known

as sour whey) is obtained during making of acid type of cheese such as cottage

cheese. I would guess that kefir whey is more like that produced when making

cottage cheese like you said.

I wonder if the pH changes over time with fermentation? That would be an easy

" at home " experiment. Also, what are we tasting when we taste the " sourness " of

kefir or any fermented product?

It's funny. From what I have read I know that raw cow's milk is superior - a

bigger bonus when made into kefir. I never gave too much thought to what milk

was actually comprised of (outside of the wonderful full fattiness of the raw

milk I get), nor what the transformation yields when made of when made into

kefir, other that the fact that it was a healthier, probiotic product.

The milk compostion sites were interesting. Too bad the food scientests are

missing out on a real project studying raw milk and the kefir made from it.

Thanks for the Gmail suggestion. I normally do not read digest format but I am

on too many groups nowdays ). Perhaps I could sign up with gmail expressly

for groups.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol,

I have several Gmail invites. If you or anyone else on this list is

interested in an account, just send me an email with your name and

email address and I'll send an invite to you so you can sign up. I

only have six invites, so first come first served.

Fern

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 06:38:44 -0800 (PST), Carol Saunders

<carolnpepa@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks for the Gmail suggestion. I normally do not read digest format but I

am on too many groups nowdays ). Perhaps I could sign up with gmail expressly

for groups.

[Guest guest]

that would be great! plz send to starshine@...

thanks in advance

Amber

Re: website, whey and carbohydrates

>

> Hi Carol,

>

> I have several Gmail invites. If you or anyone else on this list is

> interested in an account, just send me an email with your name and

> email address and I'll send an invite to you so you can sign up. I

> only have six invites, so first come first served.

>

> Fern

>

>

> On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 06:38:44 -0800 (PST), Carol Saunders

> <carolnpepa@...> wrote:

> >

> > Thanks for the Gmail suggestion. I normally do not read digest format

but I am on too many groups nowdays ). Perhaps I could sign up with gmail

expressly for groups.

>

>

>

>

>