Re: Ginger beer, sauerkraut, etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I used a 5 gal stainless steel pot for my kimchi and sauerkraut for the first

stage of fermenting before bottling it all up after 3-9 days. I used to ferment

in pot for 7-9 days at 68-72F and the past two years I've been fermenting in pot

or food grade plastic bucket for 3 day at 68-72F then bottling and kept at

60-64F for 2 weeks, then putting it into cold storage.

I don't think it is optimal to use ss pots or plastic buckets, but I don't have

a big fancy expensive crock so I use what I have. I've always had great success

with this method.

Happy fermenting,

Tonio

I've been lurking and reading the archives. I've been increasing

the amount of fermented foods in my diet. We just got into some

ginger beer that has been sitting in my cupboard for the last 3

weeks. Boy was it good! And it has a nice head on it too.

I don't have a big crock for making sauerkraut, but would a big

stainless steel pot work ok to get it started and than transfer it

all to wide mouth mason jars?

Thanks,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tonio,

I went ahead and started some sauerkraut in my ss pot a few

days ago. This morning I went to jar it up and all the cabbage was

rotted through out the whole ss pot, black all through it. I don't

know what I did wrong? I ended up throwing it all out. I'll start

again next week when I get to the store to get some more cabbage.

sigh,

Robin

> Hi Robin,

>

> I used a 5 gal stainless steel pot for my kimchi and sauerkraut

for the first stage of fermenting before bottling it all up after 3-

9 days. I used to ferment in pot for 7-9 days at 68-72F and the past

two years I've been fermenting in pot or food grade plastic bucket

for 3 day at 68-72F then bottling and kept at 60-64F for 2 weeks,

then putting it into cold storage.

>

> I don't think it is optimal to use ss pots or plastic buckets, but

I don't have a big fancy expensive crock so I use what I have. I've

always had great success with this method.

>

> Happy fermenting,

> Tonio

>

>

> I've been lurking and reading the archives. I've been

increasing

> the amount of fermented foods in my diet. We just got into some

> ginger beer that has been sitting in my cupboard for the last 3

> weeks. Boy was it good! And it has a nice head on it too.

>

> I don't have a big crock for making sauerkraut, but would a big

> stainless steel pot work ok to get it started and than transfer

it

> all to wide mouth mason jars?

>

> Thanks,

> Robin

>

>

[Guest guest]

That sounds strange. Black all the way through??? Maybe store bought cabbage

isn't providing the needed lactic acid bacteria. You may need some added

culture, like sauerkraut juice, kimchi juice or other source of live l-a

bacteria. Also make sure your ss pot doesn't have any pitting. What are you

using for your recipe? Something went way wrong.

Good luck next time,

Tonio

Thanks Tonio,

I went ahead and started some sauerkraut in my ss pot a few

days ago. This morning I went to jar it up and all the cabbage was

rotted through out the whole ss pot, black all through it. I don't

know what I did wrong? I ended up throwing it all out. I'll start

again next week when I get to the store to get some more cabbage.

sigh,

Robin

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Tonio,

> I went ahead and started some sauerkraut in my ss pot a few

>days ago. This morning I went to jar it up and all the cabbage was

>rotted through out the whole ss pot, black all through it. I don't

>know what I did wrong? I ended up throwing it all out. I'll start

>again next week when I get to the store to get some more cabbage.

>sigh,

>Robin

I've had lousy luck with stainless and fermenting ... it seems to

depend on the QUALITY of the stainless, which isn't immediately

obvious when looking at the pot. It's better to use glass *anything* ...

old kimchi jars are my favorite, with those nice plastic lids that

let the gas out. Mason jars work too, though they are less robust.

Kimchi is now being sold in clear plastic, and that stuff works ok

too, it is food grade and acid proof. But I sure wouldn't use anything

metallic at this point, or crockery you aren't sure of (pickle crocks and

Harsch crocks are fine, they are made for fermenting).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I found some 1 gallon buckets made of #2 Food grade HDPE at my local

" Dollar Tree " dollar store. It is the same plastic used for 5 gal

pickle buckets and brewing buckets. A small plate will fit inside with

a weight to hold down the contents, then I place a layer or two of

saran wrap across the top held in place by a rubber band, this acts as

an airlock only allowing gas to escape, keeping air out.

I have a whole bunch of them and keep two or three going at a time.

I have a 3 gal pickling crock, but have'nt perfected my Kimchi enough

to make a big batch yet.

It has been staying below 50 outside lately, so I have been

fermenting/storing my crocks and buckets outside, beneath a sleeping

bag, until I dig my root cellar. My Kimchi has kept for over 3 weeks

out there so far. It seems to have a more delicate flavor when

fermented below 60, but I think I actually like the stuff that I kept

at 65-75F for 2-3 days before " putting out " better.

There is a Home/Farm store near here, that sells 1 gal (and larger)

pickling crocks for decent prices (1 gal for $16.00, 2 gal $26.00).

You can then have a sauerkraut board (round disc with a finger hole)

cut from 3/4 " thick Poplar wood to fit your crock.

Have Fun!

Beau

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:28:54 -0800, Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> wrote:

>

>

> >Thanks Tonio,

> > I went ahead and started some sauerkraut in my ss pot a few

> >days ago. This morning I went to jar it up and all the cabbage was

> >rotted through out the whole ss pot, black all through it. I don't

> >know what I did wrong? I ended up throwing it all out. I'll start

> >again next week when I get to the store to get some more cabbage.

> >sigh,

> >Robin

>

> I've had lousy luck with stainless and fermenting ... it seems to

> depend on the QUALITY of the stainless, which isn't immediately

> obvious when looking at the pot. It's better to use glass *anything* ...

> old kimchi jars are my favorite, with those nice plastic lids that

> let the gas out. Mason jars work too, though they are less robust.

> Kimchi is now being sold in clear plastic, and that stuff works ok

> too, it is food grade and acid proof. But I sure wouldn't use anything

> metallic at this point, or crockery you aren't sure of (pickle crocks and

> Harsch crocks are fine, they are made for fermenting).

>

> Heidi Jean

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Beau,

Thanks so much for the technique!!! I'll definately copy it.

One question - with the rubber band around the saran wrap, how is

the gas able to escape?

Ken

> Hi Robin,

> I found some 1 gallon buckets made of #2 Food grade HDPE at my

local

> " Dollar Tree " dollar store. It is the same plastic used for 5 gal

> pickle buckets and brewing buckets. A small plate will fit inside

with

> a weight to hold down the contents, then I place a layer or two of

> saran wrap across the top held in place by a rubber band, this

acts as

> an airlock only allowing gas to escape, keeping air out.

> I have a whole bunch of them and keep two or three going at a time.

> I have a 3 gal pickling crock, but have'nt perfected my Kimchi

enough

> to make a big batch yet.

> It has been staying below 50 outside lately, so I have been

> fermenting/storing my crocks and buckets outside, beneath a

sleeping

> bag, until I dig my root cellar. My Kimchi has kept for over 3

weeks

> out there so far. It seems to have a more delicate flavor when

> fermented below 60, but I think I actually like the stuff that I

kept

> at 65-75F for 2-3 days before " putting out " better.

> There is a Home/Farm store near here, that sells 1 gal (and larger)

> pickling crocks for decent prices (1 gal for $16.00, 2 gal $26.00).

> You can then have a sauerkraut board (round disc with a finger

hole)

> cut from 3/4 " thick Poplar wood to fit your crock.

> Have Fun!

> Beau

>

[Guest guest]

Well Ken..

The gas builds very slowly, by pulling the plastic taught over the

opening there is no loose plastic to " bubble up " and it just bleeds

out past the rubber band. A positive pressure of carbon dioxide is

maintained within the bucket/crock creating the ideal anerobic

environment even on the surface of the liquid. Just like a harsch

crock..but cheaper.

If you use a small enough bucket/crock, then you can ferment for as

long as you like, then put the whole thing in the fridge until you're

ready to jar it up, or if you have a lid for the bucket then you could

just store it that way..

I would use at least two layers to avoid punctures, or even a heavier

plastic like a side panel of a large ziplock bag might be good.

BTW I have been filling the buckets about 1/2 full, then there is room

for a glass or stone weight between the plastic and the plate on top

of the veggies.

Have Fun and let me know if you need any recipes!

Beau

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:13:08 -0000, exyogi <k2ben2@...> wrote:

>

>

> Beau,

>

> Thanks so much for the technique!!! I'll definately copy it.

>

> One question - with the rubber band around the saran wrap, how is

> the gas able to escape?

>

> Ken

>

>

> > Hi Robin,

> > I found some 1 gallon buckets made of #2 Food grade HDPE at my

> local

> > " Dollar Tree " dollar store. It is the same plastic used for 5 gal

> > pickle buckets and brewing buckets. A small plate will fit inside

> with

> > a weight to hold down the contents, then I place a layer or two of

> > saran wrap across the top held in place by a rubber band, this

> acts as

> > an airlock only allowing gas to escape, keeping air out.

> > I have a whole bunch of them and keep two or three going at a time.

> > I have a 3 gal pickling crock, but have'nt perfected my Kimchi

> enough

> > to make a big batch yet.

> > It has been staying below 50 outside lately, so I have been

> > fermenting/storing my crocks and buckets outside, beneath a

> sleeping

> > bag, until I dig my root cellar. My Kimchi has kept for over 3

> weeks

> > out there so far. It seems to have a more delicate flavor when

> > fermented below 60, but I think I actually like the stuff that I

> kept

> > at 65-75F for 2-3 days before " putting out " better.

> > There is a Home/Farm store near here, that sells 1 gal (and larger)

> > pickling crocks for decent prices (1 gal for $16.00, 2 gal $26.00).

> > You can then have a sauerkraut board (round disc with a finger

> hole)

> > cut from 3/4 " thick Poplar wood to fit your crock.

> > Have Fun!

> > Beau

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. We shredded cabbage and made layers

of salt to cabbage. My husband punched it all down in the stainless

steel pot...good stress relief, eh?! We put some outside leaves on

top, put a plate on top of those and for weight we used a jug full

of water. A few days later when I opened it all up to check on it,

there was black mold all the way through it. Like I said I pitched

it, it probably did need some culture. Yesterday I bought some more

cabbage and some large food-grade plastic containers and I'll try it

again. I've tried to make sauerkraut many times in an old crock

(from antique shop) and I've only had one batch that I really

liked. It had a blue-green mold growing on it that I had to skim

off, before I put it all into wide-mouth mason jars. I let it sit

for a long time, but when I finally did get into it, it was good

eating. It didn't stink like it did when I first discovered that

blue-green mold growing on it. I almost pitched that batch, but

Sandor-kraut wrote and told me it was ok. I culture other veggies

with no problem, but I've had problems with just about every

sauerkraut recipe that I've tried, except for that one I tried of

Sandor's w/the colorful mold. Needless to say I have pitched a lot

of failed attempts. I'll take your luck, cuz here I go again.

Robin

> That sounds strange. Black all the way through??? Maybe store

bought cabbage isn't providing the needed lactic acid bacteria. You

may need some added culture, like sauerkraut juice, kimchi juice or

other source of live l-a bacteria. Also make sure your ss pot

doesn't have any pitting. What are you using for your recipe?

Something went way wrong.

>

> Good luck next time,

> Tonio

[Guest guest]

>I've had problems with just about every

>sauerkraut recipe that I've tried, except for that one I tried of

>Sandor's w/the colorful mold. Needless to say I have pitched a lot

>of failed attempts. I'll take your luck, cuz here I go again.

>Robin

You know, there must be something basic that isn't right.

Have you seen my kimchi writup? It has pictures. Black mold

" all the way through " just doesn't sound even possible unless

maybe you don't have enough liquid in the batch? Mold only

grows where there is oxygen.

I'd suggest:

1. Make sure there is enough liquid to COVER the top cabbage leaves.

Then make sure your weight keeps the cabbage under the liquid.

2. Sprinkle some salt on the top cabbage leaves.

3. Use at least 2T salt per 5lbs cabbage.

4. Add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to the cabbage

when you are mixing it.

Another possibility might be your water, esp. if you are on

a well. Ours has some really " interesting " bacteria in it:

they aren't toxic but they grow weird colonies (long strings

of reddish stuff that looks like seaweed). The old recipes

all say to boil the water and add salt and vinegar to it: I

suspect that is to keep " the slimies " away.

And, you might want to keep some kind of cover

on your container. This keeps the moisture in, and

keeps the CO2 in. Mold doesn't like CO2. It doesn't

have to be an airtight lid (in fact, you don't want it

really airtight, so gas can escape!). But setting a lid

from one of your cooking pans over the bucket might

help, or put the bucket lid back on (but not snapped)

with a weight on it.

Also, if you use iodized salt, I've heard it can turn black.

Actually salt with a lot of minerals in it I suppose could

do something like that too. Some vegies that have a lot

of iron in them will turn black when exposed to air

(some potatoes do this, looks awful but it's harmless).

If all else fails, try a batch using napa cabbage. It was

bred to ferment, I think! I've had it start turning into

kimchi when I've just salted it and left it on the counter

too long.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Just a thought, if you were using tap water that contained chlorine, it would

kill the microflora and that might be why there was mold throughout, nothing

to eat up the mold.

Miriam

[Guest guest]

I second everything Heidi says ... and I am a very new fermenter. I

have had nothing in my four or so gallons of kimchi, kraut, etc. spoil.

I am on well water, but we have a whole house and under sink filter. I

only wanted to add that perhaps smaller batches in glass jars may be the

way to go. I mean, the process of grating cabbage is time and labor

intensive and to have to throw away food, time and money is sad.

Better success next time!

~ Deanna

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

>

>

> You know, there must be something basic that isn't right.

> Have you seen my kimchi writup? It has pictures. Black mold

> " all the way through " just doesn't sound even possible unless

> maybe you don't have enough liquid in the batch? Mold only

> grows where there is oxygen.

>

> I'd suggest:

>

> 1. Make sure there is enough liquid to COVER the top cabbage leaves.

> Then make sure your weight keeps the cabbage under the liquid.

> 2. Sprinkle some salt on the top cabbage leaves.

> 3. Use at least 2T salt per 5lbs cabbage.

> 4. Add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to the cabbage

> when you are mixing it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> You know, there must be something basic that isn't right.

> Have you seen my kimchi writup? It has pictures.

*I don't know if I have or not. I've looked at kimchi info. before,

but I don't recall if it was yours or not.

Black mold

> " all the way through " just doesn't sound even possible unless

> maybe you don't have enough liquid in the batch? Mold only

> grows where there is oxygen.

*I think your right on this one. We noticed with this new batch we

just did up that the cabbage was moist, whereas, the black mold

batch the cabbage was drier. Probably old cabbage and no juices

left in them to come out. For insurance proposes this time I added

salt water right off the bat, instead of trusting it to produce its

own juices.

>

> I'd suggest:

>

> 1. Make sure there is enough liquid to COVER the top cabbage

leaves.

> Then make sure your weight keeps the cabbage under the liquid.

> 2. Sprinkle some salt on the top cabbage leaves.

> 3. Use at least 2T salt per 5lbs cabbage.

> 4. Add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to the cabbage

> when you are mixing it.

*I did all of the above with this new batch, except the vinegar. My

husband was smashing it with his fists and mixing it and he hates

vinegar.

>

> Another possibility might be your water, esp. if you are on

> a well. Ours has some really " interesting " bacteria in it:

> they aren't toxic but they grow weird colonies (long strings

> of reddish stuff that looks like seaweed). The old recipes

> all say to boil the water and add salt and vinegar to it: I

> suspect that is to keep " the slimies " away.

Yuck! We live in a village that pumps water from a well in the town

to the village. We just got a new water tower/system too. I

usually have a filter on my sink anyways, but we recently moved and

didn't get it hooked back up yet. I've talked to the village

manager and they assured me that they don't add anything to the

water. They only did for a short time while they set-up the new

system. I could definitely tell the difference in the water for

that time period. Other than that we have great water here. I

can't drink water from other towns and cities it taste gross to me.

>

> And, you might want to keep some kind of cover

> on your container. This keeps the moisture in, and

> keeps the CO2 in. Mold doesn't like CO2. It doesn't

> have to be an airtight lid (in fact, you don't want it

> really airtight, so gas can escape!). But setting a lid

> from one of your cooking pans over the bucket might

> help, or put the bucket lid back on (but not snapped)

> with a weight on it.

*This could be the problem. I usually just cover the shredded,

salted cabbage with extra leaves, put a plate on top that fits the

container and a jug filled with water for weight. No other cover.

With this new batch I used the plastic wrap over the top held on by

a rubber band that was suggested in another post.

>

> Also, if you use iodized salt, I've heard it can turn black.

> Actually salt with a lot of minerals in it I suppose could

> do something like that too. Some vegies that have a lot

> of iron in them will turn black when exposed to air

> (some potatoes do this, looks awful but it's harmless).

*Normally, I use Real Salt. This last time I used sea salt. I

don't buy iodized salt.

>

> If all else fails, try a batch using napa cabbage. It was

> bred to ferment, I think! I've had it start turning into

> kimchi when I've just salted it and left it on the counter

> too long.

>

*Hummm, I guess I'll have to try it. I did use it once when I made

kimchi and it turned out fine. Kimchi is to spicey for me though, I

don't care for it as much as sauerkraut, but that could be the

German in me.

Thanks,

Robin

> Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>> You know, there must be something basic that isn't right.

>> Have you seen my kimchi writup? It has pictures.

>

>*I don't know if I have or not. I've looked at kimchi info. before,

>but I don't recall if it was yours or not.

Try:

http://f3.grp.fs.com/v1/QCDWQRcjiV1wrFXvw01HcWWbE3oiIhLLuhKvOm1dnf6lMSRIggm\

wuoSJgktdX5jqLAXIgIH_9BEVSd4yl90/Recipes-Condiments/kimchi.pdf

(if you can't download it, write me privately and I'll send it).

>Black mold

>> " all the way through " just doesn't sound even possible unless

>> maybe you don't have enough liquid in the batch? Mold only

>> grows where there is oxygen.

>

>*I think your right on this one. We noticed with this new batch we

>just did up that the cabbage was moist, whereas, the black mold

>batch the cabbage was drier. Probably old cabbage and no juices

>left in them to come out. For insurance proposes this time I added

>salt water right off the bat, instead of trusting it to produce its

>own juices.

The cabbage should be IMMERSED, as in, sitting in JUICE. There should

be no air bubbles. Mainly because mold likes air! You can add water,

or better, boiled salt water:

1 qt water

2 TBL salt

2 TBL vinegar

You can basically pour this mx over any vegie and it will ferment,

esp. if you add a little kimchi juice too. Sometimes it is hard

to " pound " the cabbage enough to get enough juice to really

immerse it.

>>

>> I'd suggest:

>>

>> 1. Make sure there is enough liquid to COVER the top cabbage

>leaves.

>> Then make sure your weight keeps the cabbage under the liquid.

>> 2. Sprinkle some salt on the top cabbage leaves.

>> 3. Use at least 2T salt per 5lbs cabbage.

>> 4. Add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to the cabbage

>> when you are mixing it.

>

>*I did all of the above with this new batch, except the vinegar. My

>husband was smashing it with his fists and mixing it and he hates

>vinegar.

I'm not a big vinegar fan either ... try lemon juice or kimchi juice?

Anything to bring the PH down.

>

>Yuck! We live in a village that pumps water from a well in the town

>to the village. We just got a new water tower/system too. I

>usually have a filter on my sink anyways, but we recently moved and

>didn't get it hooked back up yet. I've talked to the village

>manager and they assured me that they don't add anything to the

>water. They only did for a short time while they set-up the new

>system. I could definitely tell the difference in the water for

>that time period. Other than that we have great water here. I

>can't drink water from other towns and cities it taste gross to me.

You can always boil it ... or use spring water. Lately we found

out that our well water is high in arsenic, so we use

bottled Artesian well water that my DH gets at a free

well. Makes a huge difference! Alternatively,

run some cabbage thru the food processor and use

cabbage juice.

>

>*This could be the problem. I usually just cover the shredded,

>salted cabbage with extra leaves, put a plate on top that fits the

>container and a jug filled with water for weight. No other cover.

>With this new batch I used the plastic wrap over the top held on by

>a rubber band that was suggested in another post.

According to my Mom, her Grannie's kraut wasn't really covered,

but it also got mold on top. They just took the mold

off and ate it anyway.

>

>*Normally, I use Real Salt. This last time I used sea salt. I

>don't buy iodized salt.

Great!

> >

>*Hummm, I guess I'll have to try it. I did use it once when I made

>kimchi and it turned out fine. Kimchi is to spicey for me though, I

>don't care for it as much as sauerkraut, but that could be the

>German in me.

" Napa " isn't spicy at all. Kimchi is spicy because they add a lot

of red pepper to it, but that is optional. I make napa-based

kimchi for my DH a lot, with salt and dill and garlic. Tastes

like Dill Pickles. However, I suspect your problem is lack

of H2O, whcih Napa won't help. " Just Add Water " I say ...

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

http://f3.grp.fs.com/v1/QCDWQRcjiV1wrFXvw01HcWWbE3oiIhLLuhKvOm1dnf6lMSRIggm\

wuoSJgktdX5jqLAXIgIH_9BEVSd4yl90/Recipes-Condiments/kimchi.pdf

>

It's hard to link to files in archives Heidi. I believe the link

hash is generated a new each time the file is accessed and is only valid for a

limited time. This has been my experience trying to use a download manager to

download files from the files section of web sites.

I tried just now and I get a file not found error, I believe the link you so

thoughtfully provided has expired.

Oh, and you have to be signed into and be a member of the particular group

as well.

regards, Bruce

P.S. I still have a copy of your kimchi pdf on my web space:

http://www3.telus.net/public/stordock/kimchi.pdf )

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bruce, your link worked for me. Heidi, this is the first

time I've seen this, so thanks and thanks for all your help.

Robin

> >

>

http://f3.grp.fs.com/v1/QCDWQRcjiV1wrFXvw01HcWWbE3oiIhLLuhKvOm1d

nf6lMSRIggmwuoSJgktdX5jqLAXIgIH_9BEVSd4yl90/Recipes-

Condiments/kimchi.pdf

> >

>

> It's hard to link to files in archives Heidi. I

believe the link

> hash is generated a new each time the file is accessed and is only

valid for a

> limited time. This has been my experience trying to use a download

manager to

> download files from the files section of web sites.

>

> I tried just now and I get a file not found error, I believe the

link you so

> thoughtfully provided has expired.

>

> Oh, and you have to be signed into and be a member of the

particular group

> as well.

>

>

> regards, Bruce

>

> P.S. I still have a copy of your kimchi pdf on my web space:

> http://www3.telus.net/public/stordock/kimchi.pdf )

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Bruce, your link worked for me. Heidi, this is the first

>time I've seen this, so thanks and thanks for all your help.

>Robin

Good luck! I have no idea how the " long link " happened, but

it's in the Files section for this group too.

Heidi Jean