Re: Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

October 18, 2004

Hi Allan,

What a bunch of duds...Is Tokyo even a good place to find Natto rolls?

Wow, natto in WV I live in Ca and have never seen it anywhere.

You can order the natto bacillus and tempeh starter along with lots of other

neat culture starters from www.gemcultures.com. Like Koji for making shoyu,

miso, sake, etc. They don't do online ordering, you need to print one of their

order forms and send them a Check or money order. I got my package within a week

of sending the order. They are in Fort Bragg.

You can call them and talk to a nice lady named Betty.

I ordered some of each of the Koji's, tempeh, and natto, plus a few plastic lids

that fit onto canning jars for about 25.00

It seems that preparing the Koji will prove to be the most challenging.

Hope you give it try.

Beau B.

Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

Hey - where did you get your tempeh starter? Where are you getting your NATTO

starter?

Man, I was at a SUSHI bar in SONOMA last night and asked for natto rolls and

they told me

GO TO TOKYO FOR THAT! I couldn't believe it! I can get Natto in my home town

in WV!!

-Allan

October 20, 2004

Dom,

Your arrival to the group is a most blessed occasion!

I have been refering to your " culture foods of asia " page for my info. It seems

that your instructions are the only ones that explain the natural acidification

of the beans. Other recipes often call for the addition of vinegar, which

sounded a bit less than traditional.

I tried a second batch and had much better results, by simply spacing the bags

better. Although there was a great deal of black/grey sporulation. Is this from

too high of heat - over/undercooked beans or humidity?

I have also heard that this can depend on the spores you use.

When using the perforated bag method does one need to add an additional source

of moisture in the incubator?

Dom thank you for joining this group and giving us a better look at your

exciting kitchen.

BTW Thanks for making that Natto page of yours too. I made a first attempt at

that also, the power went out for awhile during incubation and I believe that it

was less than fully fermented. But it was sticky with minor threads and a mild

odor, so I have since finished that batch on my own (no other natto fans here,

I'm aquiring a taste myself). I will try again using your instructions and see

if I can handle some FULLY fermented natto! Mmm Mm.

Good Fortune is yours as you are Good and Fortunate and aware of it...

Beau B.

Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

Hi Beau, this is your friend in kefir, Dom, of Kefir_making. To put

in my 5 cents worth [the lowest denominator in our currency here in

the land of Oz].

It is important to keep tabs on humidity. Optimal humidity is between

70 to 85 %. Anything higher runs the risk of the mold not taking and

slime forming organisms, which may produce excess ammonia. Anything

lower and the correct mold-type will not proliferate.

I enjoy preparing [acidifying] and dehulling soybeans using the

traditional method. 3 parts of boiling water to 1 part dry soybeans

is soaked for some 16 hours. Foam forms on the surface to indicate

acidification. The beans are strained and placed in a wide bucket,

with a small amount of water. The beans are pounded under the bare

feet to remove the hulls. The bucket is filled with water and the

floating hulls are removed by pouring the water into another bucket,

fitted with a strainer over its mouth. The water is recycled to float

away the hulls in the previous bucket filled with beans.

The beans are cooked with enough fresh water to cover the beans by a

few inches, and simmered for 60 minutes at atmospheric pressure. The

beans a drained, and placed over a large pre-ironed [to sterilize]

towel layered over a clean table top. Moister is removed by blowing

the beans with a fan for a few minutes, until the beans are just warm

to the touch, and dry. Tempeh mold spores [Rhizopus oligosporus] is

mixed in well with clean hands, and the inoculated beans are placed

in a suitable perforated packaging, such as Ziploc plastic bags or

containers, and incubated at 30 deg. C [86 F] for 22 to 24 hours,

depending on how much starter is added, and freshness of the starter.

The tempeh should be harvested when all the beans are covered with a

thick carpet of white mycelium. The beans should be bound together,

to form as a firm cake.

I am currently using " ragi tempe " [tempeh starter] which I received

from a friend in Jakarta, Indonesia. This is a commercial starter,

produced in Java, and it makes a wonderful tempeh. In fact, I have

tempe that was prepareed ealier today, marinating in kefir, red

fermented rice [to provide a delicate red colour, similar to Chinese

red peaking duck], rice malt, sufu [a fermented tofu of China] and

traditional organically produced soy sauce, with loads of garlic and

cilantro and an assortment of other fresh herbs.

This is mostly enjoyed cooked, by boiling the tempe with an amount of

marinade in a heavy iron skillett, until the marinade is reduced. The

cooked tempe melts in the mouth, due to the length it's marinaded

for, in the high proteolytic enzyme rich marinade. The marinade is

recycled to the next batch of fresh tempe [with extra kefir added to

prevent unfavorable organisms in the next batch-bath].

Be-well,

Dom

> Hi,

> Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters

> from Gemcultures.com.

> Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull

> the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.

> I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated

> and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.

> Anyone try making Tempeh?

> I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you

> use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?

> I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-

hull.

> Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.

> I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.

> Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat

> for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.

> Just the group we need!

> Take Care,

> Beau Barrett

> Pioneer, Ca

October 20, 2004

Hi Beau,

your warm greetings really touched my heart's soft spot.... THANKS funky

dude!

I shall try my best to provide you with my understanding to your

questions......

Re: Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any

experts?

> Dom,

> Your arrival to the group is a most blessed occasion!

You too are a true Gem of a friend among friends.

> I have been refering to your " culture foods of asia " page for my info. It

> seems that your instructions are the only ones that explain the natural

> acidification of the beans. Other recipes often call for the addition of

> vinegar, which sounded a bit less than traditional.

Yes I have come across many similar examples suggesting the use of vinegar.

It is just as simple to add some lactic acid starter of sorts, to soaking

legumes, which will acidify the beans while they soak [in warm water is

best]. I've used the addition of kefir and kefir whey to the soaking water

with good results. And although the beans acidify, what I found with using

kefir was that the inoculated cooked beans, do take a little longer for the

mold to take. My conclusion is that the kefir provides a moderate

mold-inhibitor to the Rhizopus oligosporus kind. However, the tempe mold

does eventually take, to produce a good cake of tempe, A cake which you can

have a piece of, and eat it too ;-<0>. I mean, why should only the

microorganisms have all the fun ?

> I tried a second batch and had much better results, by simply spacing the

> bags better. Although there was a great deal of black/grey sporulation. Is

> this from too high of heat - over/undercooked beans or humidity?

Black is the colour of the spores of R. oligosporus. The mold sporulates

when the tempe is cultured under good conditions, but left for too long in

the incubator. What you have produced here, is what's referred to as " over

ripe tempe " of sorts. Keep tabs on the tempeh at 20 hours, and check it

every 2 hours for sporulation. As soon as any area has the slightest amount

of grey form, which always occurs where air is able to get in [like around

the perforated holes], then remove the tempe and refrigerate to cease the

culture-process. Record the amount of hours it took to reach this point

[commenced sporulation], and culture the next batch for app 1 hour less.

> I have also heard that this can depend on the spores you use.

Well this can be so, but I would say that in an about way. The freshness of

the starter may have more to do with this. However, starters may loose

viability [ less likely to sporulate, or do so in a less amount]. Come to

think about it, if the starter is comprised of a large proportion of

mycelium over spores, then certainly, in this case the starter has all to do

with it. Starters with less spore count per mycelium will have less tendency

to sporulate.This is not ideal if you want to prepare your own tempe

starter, as I do.

> When using the perforated bag method does one need to add an additional

> source of moisture in the incubator?

Hmm, this is a good question. I can think of few scenarios I can share and

for you to ponder over. The size of the incubator will need to be

considered. For small scale batches, a small box type incubator may need a

small container of water close to an electric fan, which is left for the

first 16 hours of incubation, and removed at this point. Tempe well begin to

sweat at this point, which increases the moisture content within the

incubator. It may become too humid, which is the main concern for running

into problems. I use a hygrometer to test the humidity, this very same

instrument that our local bureau of meteorology used to use in the late

1960's. It is a wet and dry bulb thermometer type. In any case, I find that

for my personal home use production of tempe [a chicken egg incubator made

here in Australia, which I converted for our needs], I only need to use a

bowel of water for the first16 hours. Larger production of commercial tempeh

that I instigated here in Aust in 1979, a 20' X 20' incubating room had to

have a moisture reducer fitted, in order to reduce excesive moisture at this

larger scale of production level.

> Dom thank you for joining this group and giving us a better look at your

> exciting kitchen.

Thank you, you are more than welcome!

> BTW Thanks for making that Natto page of yours too. I made a first attempt

> at that also, the power went out for awhile during incubation and I

> believe that it was less than fully fermented. But it was sticky with

> minor threads and a mild odor, so I have since finished that batch on my

> own (no other natto fans here, I'm aquiring a taste myself).

It was a pleasure and especially to learn of your appreciation of the page I

put together [intended for you and other members here or thereother]... it

was created shortly post reading your post yesterday:-).

BTW a wonderful natto is preparable with legumes such as fresh sweet peas.

This will produce little to no detectable ammonia, such as what comes with

soynatto. Soon, I am to harvest some mature fresh broad beans from our

garden. Some of which the tender whole beans and tips of the young plants,

went into a batch of kefirkraut I prepared just a few hours ago. Fresh

broadbeans make an interesting mild natto. Sunflower seed makes a great

natto too.

> I will try again using your instructions and see if I can handle some

> FULLY fermented natto! Mmm Mm.

May good fortune always be at your side with you, while you also recall

Japanese horse with radish... LOL [i.e. to say, Washabi and soy sauce, the

living-horse, go well with natto]

> Good Fortune is yours as you are Good and Fortunate and aware of it...

> Beau B.

Yes, we be come empowered when we choose to seek and be with the light,

Dom

October 20, 2004

> Dom,

> Your arrival to the group is a most blessed occasion!

I would add my happy greeting as well Dominic.

Welcome to the group!

Namaste, _/|\_

Bruce

October 20, 2004

Ahh yes Dom, the Self-sufficient-SEE of your person has reminded me of a

question that was crowded to the outskirts of my mind, by more presently

important information...

Regarding preparing your own starter, I have heard that one can crumble some

fresh tempeh onto a spinach leaf and cover with another then wrap it in paper

and leave in a warm place until the spinach leaves are dry. Then it is said that

you will find that the tempeh has thouroughly sporulated and the leaves and all

can be crushed and used as starter...

I peeped that photo of yours with some captive Rhizopus in a testube looking

very much alive. I have since been wondering " how does Dom grow his Rhizopus up

so clean and pure looking? "

You mentioned that you are using a " Ragi Tempe " starter, is this a strain that

you are maintaining via propagation or just a " supply " that you have?

Mostly I am interested in pure R. Oligosporus propagation.

Can Natto be grown as a pure culture too?

Oh boy, your answers to my questions are very much enjoyed and appreciated.

I send my blessings and fermentous energies to you and your recent batch of

soon-to-be wonderful kefirkraut.

We all thank you.

Beau B