An Introduction

May 13, 1999

, thank you so much for taking the time to introduce yourself. Your

research and knowledge will be very useful to all of us! We have a 3-month

old who had an adverse reaction to the HEP B (1st dose at 3 weeks of age)

and then made the decision to not continue with vaccinations. Thank you so

much for sharing your experience and again your knowledge!

in Washington

an introduction

Hi, My name is Nagel. I have been a nurse for 9 years and a school

nurse for the last 3 years. I have had much experience with vaccines. I

was in the military for 5 years in which I blindly gave over 3000

immunizations all the while thinking that I was doing what was " best " for

the troops getting the vaccine. I have blindly told parents for the last 3

years " be wise, immunize " thinking that I was doing what was best for my

students. My son is 4 years old and has had all his first 2 year shots

because I blindly immunized him think I was doing best for him. Well about

3 months ago a fellow co-worker (the health coordinator for my school

district) showed me some information that a parent had given her regarding

immunization. That parent had told my co-worker that she didn't want her

to think she was an " uniformed radical religious nut " (or something to the

effect) for choosing to exempt her children from immunizations. She

introduced us to Dr. Leonard Horowitz book " Emerging Viruses : AID's &

Eboli. Accident, Nature, or Intentional " . This was just the tip of the

ice berg. We have done some major research into vaccinations and

reactions. The real turning point for me was correlation between DTP and

SIDs (sudden infant death syndrome). Recent studies show that normal

healthy children with normal healthy breathing patterns developed apnea

(absence of respiration) and dyspnea (difficulty breathing) for up to 2

weeks after receiving their DTP. Findings are that children tend to die

of SIDs at 2 months, 4 months, and 6 months. This is also the time when

the first 3 DTP's are administered. Japan had one of the highest SIDs

rates in the world, they noticed the connection between DTP and SIDs and

stopped giving their infants DTP's until they were 2 years of age and

reduced their SIDs rate by 95%. These results are too dramatic to ignore.

They have also made leaps in discovering a link between Asthma and

Pertussis vaccinations.

I had a nephew who died of SIDs 20 years ago when he was 4 months old,

just several days after receiving his second DTP, at this time it was

written off as just another unexplained death of a healthy 4 month old

baby. I noticed in my own child after his 3rd DTP that he had dyspnea at

night and had one mild seizure while sleeping, when I asked my doctor, he

had told me it was mere coincidence and that my child should be all right.

Luckily, (my son) had nothing more severe happen. My only regret

is that I didn't have this information 4 years ago.

My son has had his first 2 years of immunizations, but I can guarantee

they are his last. This is the only medical procedure performed in which

the parent is informed of possible adverse reactions and not given the

choice as to whether they really want to take these risks. I, for one,

after researching vaccines do not want my child immunized. I feel that in

our day and age we have the technology to be making clean vaccines, but

unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening. Here are a few other

things I have learned. Since 1979 every polio case in the united states

was caused by the polio vaccine. Every year between 12,000 and 14,000

adverse vaccine reactions are filed with the FDA and the FDA estimates

these figures only represent 10 percent of true damage being done. Most

vaccines are cultured in animal organs and contain live viruses, aluminum,

mercury, and formaldehyde (all carcinogens). Between 1990 and 1997, the

U.S. government spent more than $802 million compensating parents for brain

injuries and deaths inflicted on their children by mandated vaccines.

Other countries have called for moratoriums on there vaccines, but the

U.S.A. continues to deny there is even a problem. We are advanced enough

society that we should be able to make vaccines safe, but until that time I

choose to not have my child vaccinated Now that you have heard my long

winded story, I am sure you are sorry you asked for an introduction.

Thanks,

Nagel

<< File: ATT00001.html >>

May 14, 1999

Hi ,

My name is Jacki and I run the vaccineinjuriesonelist group.

I read your e-mail and wondered if you would like to join our list.

My son was injured by a DTP vaccine and many of the members of our list have

children injured by many of the other vaccines including the HEP B. I hope

your child is well and healthy and you certainly made the right decision. If

your interested, sign up!

Jacki in NJ

an introduction

>

>Hi, My name is Nagel. I have been a nurse for 9 years and a school

>nurse for the last 3 years. I have had much experience with vaccines. I

>was in the military for 5 years in which I blindly gave over 3000

>immunizations all the while thinking that I was doing what was " best " for

>the troops getting the vaccine. I have blindly told parents for the last 3

>years " be wise, immunize " thinking that I was doing what was best for my

>students. My son is 4 years old and has had all his first 2 year shots

>because I blindly immunized him think I was doing best for him. Well about

>3 months ago a fellow co-worker (the health coordinator for my school

>district) showed me some information that a parent had given her regarding

>immunization. That parent had told my co-worker that she didn't want her

>to think she was an " uniformed radical religious nut " (or something to the

>effect) for choosing to exempt her children from immunizations. She

>introduced us to Dr. Leonard Horowitz book " Emerging Viruses : AID's &

>Eboli. Accident, Nature, or Intentional " . This was just the tip of the

>ice berg. We have done some major research into vaccinations and

>reactions. The real turning point for me was correlation between DTP and

>SIDs (sudden infant death syndrome). Recent studies show that normal

>healthy children with normal healthy breathing patterns developed apnea

>(absence of respiration) and dyspnea (difficulty breathing) for up to 2

>weeks after receiving their DTP. Findings are that children tend to die

>of SIDs at 2 months, 4 months, and 6 months. This is also the time when

>the first 3 DTP's are administered. Japan had one of the highest SIDs

>rates in the world, they noticed the connection between DTP and SIDs and

>stopped giving their infants DTP's until they were 2 years of age and

>reduced their SIDs rate by 95%. These results are too dramatic to ignore.

> They have also made leaps in discovering a link between Asthma and

>Pertussis vaccinations.

> I had a nephew who died of SIDs 20 years ago when he was 4 months old,

>just several days after receiving his second DTP, at this time it was

>written off as just another unexplained death of a healthy 4 month old

>baby. I noticed in my own child after his 3rd DTP that he had dyspnea at

>night and had one mild seizure while sleeping, when I asked my doctor, he

>had told me it was mere coincidence and that my child should be all right.

> Luckily, (my son) had nothing more severe happen. My only regret

>is that I didn't have this information 4 years ago.

> My son has had his first 2 years of immunizations, but I can guarantee

>they are his last. This is the only medical procedure performed in which

>the parent is informed of possible adverse reactions and not given the

>choice as to whether they really want to take these risks. I, for one,

>after researching vaccines do not want my child immunized. I feel that in

>our day and age we have the technology to be making clean vaccines, but

>unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening. Here are a few other

>things I have learned. Since 1979 every polio case in the united states

>was caused by the polio vaccine. Every year between 12,000 and 14,000

>adverse vaccine reactions are filed with the FDA and the FDA estimates

>these figures only represent 10 percent of true damage being done. Most

>vaccines are cultured in animal organs and contain live viruses, aluminum,

>mercury, and formaldehyde (all carcinogens). Between 1990 and 1997, the

>U.S. government spent more than $802 million compensating parents for brain

>injuries and deaths inflicted on their children by mandated vaccines.

> Other countries have called for moratoriums on there vaccines, but the

>U.S.A. continues to deny there is even a problem. We are advanced enough

>society that we should be able to make vaccines safe, but until that time I

>choose to not have my child vaccinated Now that you have heard my long

>winded story, I am sure you are sorry you asked for an introduction.

>

>Thanks,

> Nagel

> << File: ATT00001.html >>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Get involved. Share your thoughts!

>

>Join the ONElist Weekly Survey. Go to homepage for details.

May 9, 2002

Kati's mom:

Welcome to the group. Has your psychiatrist considered any other SSRIs besides

Luvox and Paxil? I know that sometimes it takes a while to find the " right " one

for an individual.

My son, Luke, is almost 9. We've known what to call his OCD for about a year

and a half, but I can look back and see the symptoms to as early as 3 years old.

I wanted to ask you (and the group) how you handle Kati's condition with her

close friends, boyfriend, co-cheerleaders, etc. We are very open about Luke's

condition with him and so far with family and close friends. Since the OCD can

cover up Luke's own personality sometimes with a meltdown or fixation, I feel

the need to explain his behavior to his friend or friend's mother. It seems

like it would be better for them to be aware that Luke has this condition, which

is at times obvious and makes him out of control. I get especially concerned

about this if Luke is going to someone else's house instead of playing at our

house, even though he can usually " hold in " or suppress most of his major OCD

worries when in front of other people where he is self conscious.

I'm pretty mixed on this. I mean, I know how I feel, but I was wondering if

others have tried talking about it and/or not talking about it (by that I mean

informing), and if so, what kinds of reactions you've received from your child's

friends, peers, other parents, etc.

The biggest part of me wants Luke to never feel like he should be ashamed or

have to try to hide his OCD. I want him to accept the condition, but accept

nothing less than the best treatment. I feel like the way we view his condition

now, and the way we handle it will likely be the way he handles and views it as

an adult. Since OCD does not appear to be going away, I want Luke to be

comfortable dealing with it (like diabetes, epilepsy, etc.). He is very

outgoing, confident, expressive verbally. Therefore, at this time he is very

comfortable talking about his OCD/ADD, but I wonder sometimes how comfortable

others are hearing about it.

I look forward to reading your responses.

Warmly,

in Missouri (Luke's mom)

P.S. Those of you with children who write in on the OCD Kids Support Group have

the most awesome, grounded, and thoughtful kids! We really enjoy getting mail

from the group. I'm very thankful for it, and so is Luke. One thing I've

notice about a condition like OCD is that an OCDers personality tends to be so

compassionate for others and so sensitive to another's pain. I've always

admired this quality in my son.

An introduction

I've been lurking for awhile, and thought it was time to introduce

myself and my daughter, Kati. She is 15 and has had OCD probably

since she was 2. At that time, she had numbers obsessions (and was

terrified of the Count on Sesame Street!) and trich. We actually

took her to a psychiatrist at that time, and he diagnosed OCD, but

told us he didn't think he could do much with such a young child. He

advised us to just think of her as a child with a wonderful but

overactive imagination, but that later we might want to look into

therapy and medication. At about age 9 she had an acute " attack " of

OCD that lasted a couple of months. We had just moved, she hurt her

knee doing gymnastics and was on crutches, and then she got a " flu-

like " virus. Soon she had contamination issues, so that it took

hours to change clothes, and she could only wear one or two outfits.

There were certain doors she couldn't walk through, and she had to

turn in circles before she could walk through others or down certain

stairs. This attack eventually went away without treatment, and

there were only minor remnants (a particular door, for example) that

weren't too onerous.

About a year and a half ago, she hurt her hand (broke a small bone)

and couldn't do gymnastics for a couple of months. The OCD came back

with a vengeance. Numbers, doors, touching, scrupulosity....it was a

nightmare. Her doctor put her on Luvox, which helped a little at

first, and then the insurance co. refused to pay for it until she had

a trial with Paxil. The Paxil sent her over the edge--severe panic

and anxiety, greatly increased symptoms, ending up in the ER because

she " wanted to die " she felt so bad. We got her back on Luvox, and

the dr. said to double the dose, from 25 mg to 50 mg after a couple

of weeks. Same thing--panic, sleeplessness....we had to go back to

25 mg and s-l-o-w-l-y increase.

She's now taking 50 mg Luvox, spent a year in CBT/ERP therapy, and is

doing a lot better. Still a few remnants--the numbers 3 & 6 still

cause her trouble sometimes (can't go to church on the third Sunday

of the month, or 3 weeks in a row, or certain dates, for example),

but much better.

The Luvox does seem to make her manic and oppositional, which causes

some problems in school occasionally. For a while, she was hanging

out with some kids that caused me concern, and I had to really watch

her social life, because she seemed to have NO sense! (these were

boys who had driver's licenses and cars....and she's a VERY cute

girl, so you can see my worry!)Things are a bit better now...she has

a very nice boyfriend whose mother is quite protective, and her other

friends seem more appropriate. She's very active in sports

(gymnastics and cheerleading) and theater, so her schedule is very

full. That seems to help the mania, but it's hell on getting

homework done! We're really doing a balancing act there.

Our biggest concern right now is her math class. She's consistently

done 1-2 hours of homework in Algebra I a night--more than all her

other subjects combined--and she's failing. She seems to understand

the work at home, but often doesn't finish tests or makes foolish

errors. It looks like she'll have an F for the year. I've been in

touch with the teacher and with her case manager (she has a 504 plan)

on many occasions, and NOTHING has been done to help her. We're

having a meeting Monday morning about the situation. I think the

tests are not a fair indicator of her understanding, but doubt I can

convince the teacher to evaluate her any other way. I'm planning to

insist the F is removed from her transcript and see if she can obtain

the credit in some alternate way (if I can figure out what that would

be!) Any ideas? Kati feels she has been treated unfairly, that she

already understands the math, and she's pretty unwilling to accept

tutoring, a testing facilitator, taking the tests in a different

environment, or " any of that SPED stuff " . SPED has a bad reputation

at her school, and she is actually gifted in ability (even in math!)

so I understand her feelings, although I think some of those

accomodations could make a difference for her.

May 11, 2002

Katismom,

Welcome!

My middle daughter was offered a 50% pass in math last year. The

teacher realized that she knew her material, but was having

difficulties completing the excersises. He monitored her work for

content, not answers, and felt that she deserved the 50%.

Perhaps this is an option to add to the 504??

Advocacy is the key here, I think!

take care, wendy, in canada

-------------------------------------------------------------

We're having a meeting Monday morning about the situation. I think

the tests are not a fair indicator of her understanding, but doubt I

can convince the teacher to evaluate her any other way. I'm planning

to insist the F is removed from her transcript and see if she can

obtain the credit in some alternate way (if I can figure out what

that would be!)Any ideas? Kati feels she has been treated unfairly,

that she already understands the math, and she's pretty unwilling to

accept tutoring, a testing facilitator, taking the tests in a

different environment, or any of that SPED stuff.

______________________________________________________________________

Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

May 11, 2002

Hi Kati's mom, welcome!

I'm a single mom with 3 sons and , 13 y/o, had OCD. Glad

Kati's coping so well now overall. Do you think all the activities

she's involved in help reduce the OCD compulsions since they seems to

come back more during inactive periods like when she hurt her hand?

Out of my 3 sons, is the least likely to be " involved " in any

activities - sports or otherwise - he's what I might

call....intellectual?? He'll get out an play but he's not athtletic,

not real outgoing but at the same time not so introverted he won't

speak up in class, etc.

I just posted before this a question on " school work " as we also have

a 504 plan in place due to problems relating to it. Does Kati say

WHY she can't finish the tests? 's idea sounded great if you

can get that in place for her. How are the " classwork " grades? My

17 y/o non-OCD son had a similar problem in chemistry. The teacher

said you could tell he knew the work from the everyday classes, but

he just could not do well on the tests but he did manage to pass. I

know chemistry and algebra are totally different though. I was

wondering that if Katy completes at least half the test or more,

could they not " count " that as the complete test and grade on correct

& incorrect answers from the total number completed? Sorta late in

the year for that unless they can go back and re-grade.

Well, welcome to this great group (it's been my best support!) and

let us know how things go with school and Kati and all!

> I've been lurking for awhile, and thought it was time to introduce

> myself and my daughter, Kati. She is 15 and has had OCD probably

> since she was 2. At that time, she had numbers obsessions (and was

> terrified of the Count on Sesame Street!) and trich. We actually

> took her to a psychiatrist at that time, and he diagnosed OCD, but

> told us he didn't think he could do much with such a young child.

He

> advised us to just think of her as a child with a wonderful but

> overactive imagination, but that later we might want to look into

> therapy and medication. At about age 9 she had an acute " attack "

of

> OCD that lasted a couple of months. We had just moved, she hurt

her

> knee doing gymnastics and was on crutches, and then she got a " flu-

> like " virus. Soon she had contamination issues, so that it took

> hours to change clothes, and she could only wear one or two

outfits.

> There were certain doors she couldn't walk through, and she had to

> turn in circles before she could walk through others or down

certain

> stairs. This attack eventually went away without treatment, and

> there were only minor remnants (a particular door, for example)

that

> weren't too onerous.

>

> About a year and a half ago, she hurt her hand (broke a small bone)

> and couldn't do gymnastics for a couple of months. The OCD came

back

> with a vengeance. Numbers, doors, touching, scrupulosity....it was

a

> nightmare. Her doctor put her on Luvox, which helped a little at

> first, and then the insurance co. refused to pay for it until she

had

> a trial with Paxil. The Paxil sent her over the edge--severe panic

> and anxiety, greatly increased symptoms, ending up in the ER

because

> she " wanted to die " she felt so bad. We got her back on Luvox, and

> the dr. said to double the dose, from 25 mg to 50 mg after a couple

> of weeks. Same thing--panic, sleeplessness....we had to go back to

> 25 mg and s-l-o-w-l-y increase.

>

> She's now taking 50 mg Luvox, spent a year in CBT/ERP therapy, and

is

> doing a lot better. Still a few remnants--the numbers 3 & 6 still

> cause her trouble sometimes (can't go to church on the third Sunday

> of the month, or 3 weeks in a row, or certain dates, for example),

> but much better.

>

> The Luvox does seem to make her manic and oppositional, which

causes

> some problems in school occasionally. For a while, she was hanging

> out with some kids that caused me concern, and I had to really

watch

> her social life, because she seemed to have NO sense! (these were

> boys who had driver's licenses and cars....and she's a VERY cute

> girl, so you can see my worry!)Things are a bit better now...she

has

> a very nice boyfriend whose mother is quite protective, and her

other

> friends seem more appropriate. She's very active in sports

> (gymnastics and cheerleading) and theater, so her schedule is very

> full. That seems to help the mania, but it's hell on getting

> homework done! We're really doing a balancing act there.

>

> Our biggest concern right now is her math class. She's

consistently

> done 1-2 hours of homework in Algebra I a night--more than all her

> other subjects combined--and she's failing. She seems to

understand

> the work at home, but often doesn't finish tests or makes foolish

> errors. It looks like she'll have an F for the year. I've been in

> touch with the teacher and with her case manager (she has a 504

plan)

> on many occasions, and NOTHING has been done to help her. We're

> having a meeting Monday morning about the situation. I think the

> tests are not a fair indicator of her understanding, but doubt I

can

> convince the teacher to evaluate her any other way. I'm planning

to

> insist the F is removed from her transcript and see if she can

obtain

> the credit in some alternate way (if I can figure out what that

would

> be!) Any ideas? Kati feels she has been treated unfairly, that

she

> already understands the math, and she's pretty unwilling to accept

> tutoring, a testing facilitator, taking the tests in a different

> environment, or " any of that SPED stuff " . SPED has a bad

reputation

> at her school, and she is actually gifted in ability (even in

math!)

> so I understand her feelings, although I think some of those

> accomodations could make a difference for her.

May 11, 2002

Hi, and welcome!

I just thought I'd mention that we had exactly the same response

with Luvox. It made my nine year old daughter manic and impulsive -

dangerously so!! She started walking up to strange houses and knocking on the

doors to " meet " the people, and started to get F's in everything in school.

We switched her to Celexa which has been a real blessing - it helps the OCD a

lot and causes no behavioral side effects. She has ADHD too, and can't

tolerate stimulants (the ones we 've tried anyway) so the homework scene is a

nightmare, but at least I don't have to worry about her 24/7. On Luvox I felt

as if I had to supervise her every single minute - it was awful!!

You might want to consider trying a different SSRI if the behavioral

problems are that bad - although I know trying a new medication is a

nightmare in itself! (We used Paxil first too - it was actually the best for

us, but quit working after a year).

Anyway, that's my two cents worth!

in Nevada (mom to Annie, 9 1/2 with OCD and ADHD)

May 12, 2002

> Kati's mom:

>

> Welcome to the group. Has your psychiatrist considered any other

SSRIs besides Luvox and Paxil? I know that sometimes it takes a

while to find the " right " one for an individual.

Actually, we're kind of scared to try something new, because of the

issues she had with Paxil! Even getting an appropriate dose of Luvox

was a struggle. And, she's had good results from Luvox regarding OCD

symptoms.

>

> I wanted to ask you (and the group) how you handle Kati's condition

with her close friends, boyfriend, co-cheerleaders, etc. We are very

open about Luke's condition with him and so far with family and close

friends. Since the OCD can cover up Luke's own personality sometimes

with a meltdown or fixation, I feel the need to explain his behavior

to his friend or friend's mother.

I've been up-front with her teachers, and she has a 504 plan. I also

told our priest (since she was having a lot of trouble attending Mass

on certain days, and she was an altar server). Turns out, he

suffered with scrupulosity for years, as a boy in a Catholic

orphanage and later, in seminary. Finally, his confessor recognized

the problem and helped him. So he was very supportive and helpful to

Kati, and has met with her several times at her request to talk about

this. He also let her call him at any hour if she was worried about

something relating to church.

Kati didn't want her friends to know anything. For a long time, I

wouldn't let her do overnights because she wouldn't sleep, and then

the symptoms would come out with a vengeance. So I just made excuses

for her ( " She's just getting over a cold. " " We have to get up early

tomorrow to go out of town. " ) Finally, she mustered up the courage

to tell a friend (a big, tough, " bad boy " type--she was pretty manic

at the time). He said, " I have OCD too. It's no big deal. "

Unbelievably, she has told a total of 3 friends, and all three have

OCD themselves! One of the three was having acute symptoms, the

others were sort of " in remission " .

She hasn't told her boyfriend, but he knows she takes a pill every

night. She told him it was for an " anxiety " problem, and that last

year she had a lot of panic attacks and the medication helps with

that. She's worried he'll think she's " a freak " if she really

explains the whole thing to him.

I haven't made a big deal about telling anyone recently--but I did

insist on informing the school when she was in the middle of acute

symptoms. She was really against that, but it was helpful! Now she

realizes it gets her needed accomodations, so she's more OK with it,

but she hasn't attended a meeting yet. She will be going to the

meeting on Monday (she wants to tell off her math teacher, who seems

to base the ENTIRE GRADE on tests, so homework counts for nothing).

>

May 12, 2002

> . Do you think all the activities

> she's involved in help reduce the OCD compulsions since they seems

to

> come back more during inactive periods like when she hurt her

hand?

Yes, definitely, she needs to be busy (actually, frantically so!)

Her day is school, play practice, change and quick dinner, gymnastics

or gym workout, homework....Weekends are Girl Scouts, social, and

church. Not much down time, but the OCD is mostly under control.

Her psych says the exercise actually changes the brain chemistry--

sort of like " self-medication " . The other stuff distracts her, I

think, so she doesn't have time to obsess, and she won't show

compulsions around other people.

>

.. Does Kati say

> WHY she can't finish the tests? 's idea sounded great if you

> can get that in place for her. How are the " classwork " grades?

She can't say why it takes so long to complete tests. When I watch

her do math, she spends a lot of time making it look perfect. But on

a test, she knows she has a time limit. She says she rushes through,

so she can get done....The biggest problem is that there seems to be

no " classwork grade " . Her test grades are mostly in the 60's (70 is

passing). When I speak to the teacher, she's pretty rigid. She just

told Kati she was taking points off on her last test bacause she did

it in ink. Kati offered to redo it in pencil, and the teacher said

no. It seems as if she doesn't want to help her to pass....

My

> 17 y/o non-OCD son had a similar problem in chemistry. The teacher

> said you could tell he knew the work from the everyday classes, but

> he just could not do well on the tests but he did manage to pass.

As a high school chemistry teacher, I'm glad to hear the teacher at

least had a clue!

I was

> wondering that if Katy completes at least half the test or more,

> could they not " count " that as the complete test and grade on

correct

> & incorrect answers from the total number completed?

I really like this idea. It's hard for her to use up all her study

halls finishing tests (especially if she's still failing).

Sorta late in

> the year for that unless they can go back and re-grade.

That's the real problem now, of course. I'm really in " damage

control " mode here. But it might help next year.

>

May 12, 2002

:

I totally agree with you about being open to people about our kid's illness. If

we hide it, it makes it look as though we are ashamed -- we wouldn't hide it if

they had diabetes, asthma, cerebral palsy, etc. Why make our kids feel bad

about their illness and verify their feelings of shame, etc.

Everyone's different and they should do what they are comfortable with, but I

agree with you about being open about it.

Tamra (Nebraska)

ocdmom2001