panic

[Guest guest]

Mark,

This guy looks like a classic combined type ADHD all grown up. If there is really a history of PTSD here, I'd expect to see high beta, especially in the temporal lobes.

What I see is LOTS of filtering issues (control), which show up in the EEG as high activation and low theta/beta ratios (go back and look at the picture of the EEG that is active everywhere). I also see lots of Processing/Energy issues. And there is a suggestion that he has tried to respond to all of this by becoming fairly rigid (Switching).

I'd start him off in the first 4-5 sessions by trying half a session of C4/A2 SMR with theta and/or alpha inhibits and half a session of the same thing at C4/Fz and see how he feels and responds.

In my second session, I'd try a pure squash protocol, possibly at Fz/Pz or two-channel at F3/P3 and F4/P4 and see how he feels and responds.

In my third session, I'd try half a session of T3/Fp1 beta (if he could handle it that long) and then half a session of T4/Fp1 SMR and see how he feels and responds.

Keep careful notes (see if you can enlist someone significant in his life who might be able to function as a reporter). After these three, you ought to have some indications of which direction to continue.

Panic

Pete:

This guy has been diagnosed with panic disorder. I believe it is closer to PTSD.

Anyway, based on the assessment I am a little confused. This guy has tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with his eyes closed. I am tempted to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

My treatment place would be to go after the whole right side with SMR and possible T3 to Fp1.

Give me your reaction.

Thanks

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

This is the classic indicator for switching/flexibility issues. When beta is significantly higher than theta, you have a brain which is doing all it can to lock out access from subconscious material.

Pete

Panic

Pete:

This guy has been diagnosed with panic disorder. I believe it is closer to PTSD.

Anyway, based on the assessment I am a little confused. This guy has tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with his eyes closed. I am tempted to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

My treatment place would be to go after the whole right side with SMR and possible T3 to Fp1.

Give me your reaction.

Thanks

Mark

[Guest guest]

Perhaps I have not been following the list lately, so would someone fill me

in on which software the squash protocol works with, Animation Pro or BMR?

Can we really squash down 2-38? Give the few things I read, this seems

impossible. Sorry I was in a mode of deleting emails for a while if this was

addressed previously. If anyone has information, please pass along, I will

appreciate it.

Thanks,

JoAnn

[Guest guest]

Pete:

How would you set up a squash protocol?

Would you use the scope or set it up in BM

animation?

Also. In your message, you say 4-5 sessions, then seconds session then

third session.

Can you clarify?

What about a protocol of T3/T4 and C4/A2 two channel?

Mark

Panic

Pete:

This guy has been diagnosed with

panic disorder. I believe it is closer to PTSD.

Anyway, based on the assessment I am

a little confused. This guy has tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with

his eyes closed. I am tempted to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

My treatment place would be to go

after the whole right side with SMR and possible T3 to Fp1.

Give me your reaction.

Thanks

Mark

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[Guest guest]

JoAnn,

One of the reasons we switched to the new group was so people could use their ID's to do several of the promised things in these groups: access files from the group's site and review prior messages or search back through them for specific topics. Just in those rare cases when someone had an attack of the "Deletes" that later passed...

If you go to the site () and click on the Messages link on the left of the page, you can find message 49 (and others) which will answer these questions.

Pete

-----Original Message-----From: biocenterflorida@... [mailto:biocenterflorida@...]Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 11:53 PM Subject: Re: RE: PanicPerhaps I have not been following the list lately, so would someone fill me in on which software the squash protocol works with, Animation Pro or BMR? Can we really squash down 2-38? Give the few things I read, this seems impossible. Sorry I was in a mode of deleting emails for a while if this was addressed previously. If anyone has information, please pass along, I will appreciate it. Thanks, JoAnn

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. If you haven't taken the training that includes the training plan, it wouldn't make any sense.

My training planning process involves expecting that I might try several different protocols in the first few sessions and evaluating the effectiveness and response to each. Hence, I was saying that during those first 4-5 sessions I would try one in the first session (split in half to allow trial of two protocols), another in the second, etc. By the end of the first 3-5 sessions I will usually have a pretty good idea what looks like it's working and what doesn't. Then I focus on the appropriate one for a chunk of sessions.

I would usually use the cross-hemispheric bipolar protocols like T3/T4 for clients with Tone/Balance issues or those with dominance issues. You could try them with this guy, though as I said I don't see any real indicators of that in what you shared. If I were going to use a two-channel protocol, I would always test and refine each protocol separately first before putting them together. If you start out with two channels, you don't really know what's working or causing bad responses, because you have too many variables.

Pete

Panic

Pete:

This guy has been diagnosed with panic disorder. I believe it is closer to PTSD.

Anyway, based on the assessment I am a little confused. This guy has tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with his eyes closed. I am tempted to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

My treatment place would be to go after the whole right side with SMR and possible T3 to Fp1.

Give me your reaction.

Thanks

Mark

[Guest guest]

Would there be additional significance if the ratio the beta were

only 'over' theta at the Occipital (01, 02) area, was even with it at

CZ, and below it at F1? (Also, hibeta increases as well as you go

back).

> Mark,

>

> This is the classic indicator for switching/flexibility issues.

When beta

> is significantly higher than theta, you have a brain which is doing

all it

> can to lock out access from subconscious material.

>

> Pete

> Panic

>

> Pete:

>

>

>

> This guy has been diagnosed with panic disorder. I believe it

is closer

> to PTSD.

>

>

>

> Anyway, based on the assessment I am a little confused. This

guy has

> tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with his eyes closed. I am

tempted

> to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

>

>

>

> My treatment place would be to go after the whole right side

with SMR

> and possible T3 to Fp1.

>

>

>

> Give me your reaction.

>

>

>

> Thanks

> Mark

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Pete.

This is becoming clearer and clearer.

I notice that I often let my emotions and

need to see results myself get ahead of a more systematic approach. The other

thing that makes me wonder is that often I get so little feedback from clients.

It is hard to tell if anything is having an impact. Should I be expecting some

feedback after one or two sessions? IIf the feedback

is minimal, I guess I’m using the wrong protocol?

Mark

Panic

Pete:

This guy has been diagnosed with

panic disorder. I believe it is closer to PTSD.

Anyway, based on the assessment I am

a little confused. This guy has tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with

his eyes closed. I am tempted to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.

My treatment place would be to go

after the whole right side with SMR and possible T3 to Fp1.

Give me your reaction.

Thanks

Mark

To

unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

-unsubscribe

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

To

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Your use of

is subject to the

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

The assessment can be done in an hour and a half without much trouble after you get comfortable with the process, so there really is no good excuse for just jumping into a protocol without it.

Getting feedback from clients often involves watching them very closely and asking more and more detailed questions. Like a kid who comes home from school and says "Okay" when asked how school was today, clients will tend to answer you (and themselves) with as little as they can get away with. I ask after each condition, point out anything I noticed, ask specific questions (do you feel more awake? how sleepy do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10? etc.) Folks who have low levels of awareness of the world around them also have equally low awareness of the inner world as well.

Pete

-----Original Message-----From: Mark Waller [mailto:mrwaller@...]Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: RE: RE: Panic

Thanks, Pete.

This is becoming clearer and clearer.

I notice that I often let my emotions and need to see results myself get ahead of a more systematic approach. The other thing that makes me wonder is that often I get so little feedback from clients. It is hard to tell if anything is having an impact. Should I be expecting some feedback after one or two sessions? IIf the feedback is minimal, I guess I’m using the wrong protocol?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Ordinarily alpha will be dominant at the back; beta more likely to be so at the front.

If theta were higher at F1 (?), and not at C3, I would usually suspect eyeblink artifact. No matter how "little" blinking the client appears to do, if you watch the wave form (or the power spectrum), I guarantee you will see BIG excursions for a second or more in the low speeds EVERY time a blink occurs. Even if the client only blinks every ten seconds (try that and see how difficult it is!) that's 6 big theta and delta waves that are added to the averages, and they will have an impact on the numbers.

If theta and beta are even at the C sites (unless you are using fairly unusual frequency definitions), then the ratio between them is quite low, and chances are you are dealing with a client who is blocking access to the subconscious with highly structured "thinking".

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that hibeta increases in this client as you go back. Assuming you are doing the assessment, does the percent of hibeta increase? There is no good reason why hibeta should increase at the back of the head (possible neck tension?) But it may be simply another indicator of a brain which is burning up a lot of energy to no good purpose other than to keep from experiencing some feeling activity.

Pete

Panic> > Pete:> > > > This guy has been diagnosed with panic disorder. I believe it is closer> to PTSD.> > > > Anyway, based on the assessment I am a little confused. This guy has> tons of Beta (not high beta), especially with his eyes closed. I am tempted> to interpret it as a form of hyper vigilance.> > > > My treatment place would be to go after the whole right side with SMR> and possible T3 to Fp1.> > > > Give me your reaction.> > > > Thanks> Mark

[Guest guest]

Pete:

Can you tell me the way you would do a

typical squash protocol? Can it be done using

animation pro?

Mark

[Guest guest]

The only way I've ever done it on the BrainMaster is using the BMScope software, and M is the guy to respond to that. You can theoretically set a band wide enough to do it on APro, but you must have a reward band, so you could do an EEG Spectrum style squash: Down 2-12 and up 12-15 or something like that.

pete

-----Original Message-----From: Mark Waller [mailto:mrwaller@...]Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: RE: RE: Panic

Pete:

Can you tell me the way you would do a typical squash protocol? Can it be done using animation pro?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

First of all, assuming this is a Tone client, which seems reasonable, you

can expect the training to take some time. There's usually a lot to unwind

in these cases.

Second, have you tried doing a single protocol (e.g. T3/T4) instead of the

mixture? What results did you get? It seems very possible, given the short

halo she experiences after a session, that you might be doing too many

things in each session.

Third, if she is worried about her score and beating it, my guess is your

frequency may still be a bit high. Tone training is a " letting go "

training. Most folks experience a release and a deep relaxation and often

describe it as having gotten into a trance or zone.

Pete

panic

Pete et al:

I am currently working with a woman who literally wakes up and has a

panic attack every morning. She then feels anxious and shakes for part

of the rest of the day. She is usually shaky when she comes into the

office. She settles down nicely as the treatment proceeds and usually

leaves fairly calm. She comes in with a lot of high beta, which drops

dramatically as the session proceeds.

I have been doing t3/4 in combination with M2/fp1 for ten sessions, then

c4 smr. I have the freq. tuned down fairly low. I have been getting good

results and making progress, but it has been herky jerky. I am wondering

if anyone has any advice for me. There seems to be a lot of rebound, but

I keep wondering if I should be doing a better placement on the right

side.

We have done about 13 sessions. If we do 3 or more a week, things go

well. If we slip back to 2 or there is a long gap between sessions,

there is a rebound. She is on ativan (sp?) for the anxiety. She is also

on Antidepressants and at one point an antipsychotic.

Interestingly, she is a great client. She loves beating her previous

score and often urges me to make the targets tighter. She is very

motivated and cooperative.

Any advice or am I just getting impatient?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Pete:

Thanks for the response.

My logic in doing the mixed protocal was that there was a lot of

worrying about having a panic attack. I hoped by calming down FP1, there

would be less worry. When that didn't work to my satisfaction after ten

sessions I moved to C4, just trying to get quicker results.

I have not tried a single protocal. The freq I am using is 9.5 to 12.50.

In the most recent session, I started really tighting up high beta. But

after a few 5 minutes sessions it dropped down nicely below 4.4. I had

it resritcted to below 3 at the end of the last session.

Mark

panic

Pete et al:

I am currently working with a woman who literally wakes up and has a

panic attack every morning. She then feels anxious and shakes for part

of the rest of the day. She is usually shaky when she comes into the

office. She settles down nicely as the treatment proceeds and usually

leaves fairly calm. She comes in with a lot of high beta, which drops

dramatically as the session proceeds.

I have been doing t3/4 in combination with M2/fp1 for ten sessions,

then

c4 smr. I have the freq. tuned down fairly low. I have been getting

good

results and making progress, but it has been herky jerky. I am

wondering

if anyone has any advice for me. There seems to be a lot of rebound,

but

I keep wondering if I should be doing a better placement on the right

side.

We have done about 13 sessions. If we do 3 or more a week, things go

well. If we slip back to 2 or there is a long gap between sessions,

there is a rebound. She is on ativan (sp?) for the anxiety. She is

also

on Antidepressants and at one point an antipsychotic.

Interestingly, she is a great client. She loves beating her previous

score and often urges me to make the targets tighter. She is very

motivated and cooperative.

Any advice or am I just getting impatient?

Mark

[Guest guest]

With anxiety/panic clients, I find it necessary to add behavioral training

as well- deep breathing twice a day plus handwarming. It seems important

for these clients to learn self management tools in addition to doing NFB

Lisette Markham, MA, CADC, BCIAC-EEG Fellow

>From: " mwaller " <mwaller@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: panic

>Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:26:04 -0800

>

>Pete et al:

>

>I am currently working with a woman who literally wakes up and has a

>panic attack every morning. She then feels anxious and shakes for part

>of the rest of the day. She is usually shaky when she comes into the

>office. She settles down nicely as the treatment proceeds and usually

>leaves fairly calm. She comes in with a lot of high beta, which drops

>dramatically as the session proceeds.

>

>I have been doing t3/4 in combination with M2/fp1 for ten sessions, then

>c4 smr. I have the freq. tuned down fairly low. I have been getting good

>results and making progress, but it has been herky jerky. I am wondering

>if anyone has any advice for me. There seems to be a lot of rebound, but

>I keep wondering if I should be doing a better placement on the right

>side.

>

>We have done about 13 sessions. If we do 3 or more a week, things go

>well. If we slip back to 2 or there is a long gap between sessions,

>there is a rebound. She is on ativan (sp?) for the anxiety. She is also

>on Antidepressants and at one point an antipsychotic.

>

>Interestingly, she is a great client. She loves beating her previous

>score and often urges me to make the targets tighter. She is very

>motivated and cooperative.

>

>Any advice or am I just getting impatient?

>

>Mark

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've been to the ER three times with what were probably panic attacks. I figure

it's better to be safe than sorry. This happens to lots of people.

<eclansingmi@...> wrote: Hello,

It's ok you went to er for the panic.

P. McKinney, CPA

434-753-3928

703-919-9856 (cell)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Panic attacks are very familiar to me. Have had a few in the past few years,

didn't go to the ER though. What I thought was a panic attack about 7 years ago

and did go to the ER was a mix of Atrial Febrillation and Ventricular

tachycardia at the same time. Hazel insisted I go to the ER, I said no need,

probably a panic attack. She kept insisting, so I went in.

I have had panic attacks and usually they happened around sermons. Nothing like

getting up in the pulpit reaching into my inside pocket and the sermon notes

were not there. That folks is a major panic attack.

+Dave

who preached his first sermon Sunday since my throat problems started in July

and survived.

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,I haven't been online much at all, sorry not to be participating. I catch up whenever I can and I'm always thankful for this group. I had surgery with Dr. Bridwell at the end of January 2009, he took out all of my old rods and re-fused from T3 to L5. In August when everything seemed to be fine, I came to Argentina for 6 months with my husband and 3 kids (my husband has a fellowship to teach here). I was doing well, no drugs, some aches but no real pain, until this past week, when I suddenly had unbearable pains in my back. At first it seemed to be one spot, which is so sore I will scream if anyone touches it lightly -- but now I have searing sharp pain going up and down the left side of my back, from my shoulder to my lower back. It's

swollen there too. I've been flat on my back for 3 days but it's not any better. I'm trying not to panic about what is going on. It seems like it could be:1. muscle soreness. the most obvious except that I haven't done anything at all strenuous or unusual lately, and I don't know why this would happen all of a sudden, and why I would feel it all up and down my back.2. infection. is this possible? what does it feel like? would I be sicker? 3. broken or moved hardware. I'm very nervous about this because my last fusion didn't work, the hardware broke, and Dr. Bridwell was concerned that it might happen again and he might have to do an anterior surgery. I've been very careful, wearing a brace whenever I go out -- but in my sleep I always twist around a lot and I don't know if I could have dislodged a screw or

something.Dr. Bridwell wants me to come to St. Louis so he can do xrays and see what is going on. But it's a $2,000 ticket and 18 hours to fly from here, and I can't leave my kids for a week just to go get xrays. I've left a message for Bernie to see what else to do, and I'm waiting to hear back from her. I can go to a hospital here in Argentina but Bernie says they won't have xrays nearly good enough for Dr. Bridwell to see what is going on. Anyway, I know you're not doctors, but just wondered if anyone had any experience with this type of sudden pain, 9 months post-revision -- or any other suggestions.Thanks, as always. I hope everyone has an easy and comfortable week --Eve

[Guest guest]

Eve,

I am so sorry you are going through this so far from home. I haven't any

experience in what you describe. The only time I have ever really suddenly felt

" bad " in my back is when I was coming down with a virus...but that was much more

of an achey in the bones kind of feeling....it seems to start ahead of any real

fever.

I hope Bernie comes up with some ideas. I cant believe that Buenas Aires doenst

have state of the art imaging. Its not a 3rd world county!

Did you happen to go on the SRS site and see about the members listed

(www.srs.org)? I see 3 names in the directory (all in Buenas Aires) that

specialize in adult defomrity....so perhaps DrBridwell could speak with one of

them.

Please let us know how things go. We will be thinking about you.

Take Care, Cam

[Guest guest]

Cam, thank you for the support! I never heard back from Bernie (Monday is clinic day there). I agree with you, there are lovely hospitals here, but Bridwell wouldn't even accept my x-rays from NE Baptist! Picky is an understatement. He won't accept digital images, only old-fashioned full-sized full-spine xrays. Anyway I hope to talk with Bernie tomorrow and then see one of the docs listed by SRS. Thanks again - I'll keep you posted. Eve Sent from my iPodOn Oct 19, 2009, at 6:00 PM, "cammaltby" <cammaltby@...> wrote:

Eve,

I am so sorry you are going through this so far from home. I haven't any experience in what you describe. The only time I have ever really suddenly felt "bad" in my back is when I was coming down with a virus...but that was much more of an achey in the bones kind of feeling....it seems to start ahead of any real fever.

I hope Bernie comes up with some ideas. I cant believe that Buenas Aires doenst have state of the art imaging. Its not a 3rd world county!

Did you happen to go on the SRS site and see about the members listed (www.srs.org)? I see 3 names in the directory (all in Buenas Aires) that specialize in adult defomrity....so perhaps DrBridwell could speak with one of them.

Please let us know how things go. We will be thinking about you.

Take Care, Cam

[Guest guest]

Hi Eve,

I know how scary it can be to suddenly have pain that you can't relate to

anything. It's even worse when you are thousands of miles away from your Dr.

I think I would make an appointment with one of the SRS Dr.s there. That way

you can at least get an idea from the x-ray they take what is happening (or not)

with your hardware. The x-rays may not be good enough for Dr. B, but I'm sure

the Dr.s there will be able to gather some information from them. It will at

least give you something to go on. Hopefully, the hardware/screws are not the

problem. I don't know if an infection would cause the the problems you are

having. I evidently had an infection for years and had no symptoms.

If I'm understanding right you have about 3 months left in Argentina? Hopefully

whatever is happening will resolve itself before you come home, and if not

hopefully there will be something that can be done to alleviate your pain and

hold you over until you can get back home.

Keep us updated.