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There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist?by Rich Deem Introduction Atheists often claim that the presence of evil is an argument against the existence of God. The Christian God is supposed to be both loving and all-powerful. Despite these characteristics, God seems to be unable or unwilling to prevent the vast amount of evil and suffering in the world. The atheist concludes that either God is not loving or not all-powerful or that God does not exist, because if He did exist, He could stop all the suffering. The atheistic arguments contain some subtle assumptions that, as I will show, do not apply to the God of the Bible and His created universe. Even the assumption that evil and suffering are bad for us must be

questioned in light of what the Bible says. The atheists' logical argument What I have found is that atheists like to say that their arguments against God's existence specifically exclude the God of the Bible as a God who could exist. However, in reality, atheists produce generic arguments against a generic God whose characteristics and creation do not match those that are described in the Bible. Atheists may not accept what the Bible says, but they cannot say the God of the Bible cannot logically exist and then ignore what the Bible has to say about the characteristics of God. If the atheist states that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, he cannot pick and choose which arguments from the Bible to accept in order to "prove" his point. Let's formalize the atheist's arguments: God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect. A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and

suffering). The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.Therefore, God does not exist. The Bible's Response The Bible does state that God is "all powerful." In the Old Testament, one of God's titles is "El Shadday," which is translated "God Almighty."1 The Bible also states that God is loving.2 In fact, the Bible indicates that God is love.3 The Bible also indicates that God is perfect.4 So, we can agree that the first statement is a correct interpretation of what the Bible says about the characteristics of God. The next

statement indicates that a perfect, loving God must create a universe that is perfect. This is the statement that is false and invalidates the argument. Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"5 and "very good,"6 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."7 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,8 but was designed to be temporary9 and will be replaced with a perfect universe10 that will be permanent.11 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.12 Why two creations instead of one? Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe. One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2). Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment

was to "Love the Lord your God..."13 A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love. For example, I can program my computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds. However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created

the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him). What does God want? God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet: Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his

master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23) Therefore, God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions14 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible. Therefore. the Bible says that God allows temporary, bounded evil15 in order to allow free will beings to have the ability to love and to make choices. I am going to propose something which seems to support that atheists' arguments regarding evil. I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world. In fact, I think that there is too much evil in the world to be explained by naturalistic processes. The fact is that there is too much evil in the world to be explained by chaos theory or the laws of physics. Evolution provides no answers to explain the vast amount of evil done by mankind. None of the other creatures on our planet have the capacity for evil that mankind does. No other mammals kill arbitrarily. They only kill to eat and survive - but not mankind. Just watch the nightly news or

read your newspaper. Look at all the evil perpetuated in this century alone - 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, 40 million Russians killed by Stalin, 2 million Cambodians killed by their own government in the 1970's. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia. In addition to the these atrocities, there have been hundreds of massacres committed in virtually every nation of the world. The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something that animals do not possess. God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or to oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously. Some people blame the evil on

"society." However, society is composed of individuals who make individual choices. Most the evil is committed by people who oppose the will of society. In contrast, there are many examples of societies in the animal kingdom, especially among the primates. None of these societies have the capacity for evil that we do. We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.16 Why pain is necessary The atheist also makes the assumption that all pain, suffering, and death is bad or evil. In fact, physical pain is absolutely vital to our survival. If we felt no pain, we would do things to

ourselves that could be very destructive.17 For example, if we didn't feel pain when we touched a hot object, we would not react until we saw our flesh smoking. This is obviously not a good thing to do. Pain tells us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs. Natural vs. spiritual evil As discussed previously, much of the suffering experienced in the world is a direct result of free will beings making evil choices that impact others. God is not responsible for the free will choices (e.g., murder, rape, etc.) of other spiritual beings. However, some of the suffering experienced in this world are the result of natural disasters, such as earthquakes, volcanoes, storms, etc. Even so, plate tectonics, volcanoes, and storms are absolutely necessary in order for life to exist on this planet. All of these activities were significantly higher earlier in the Earth's history. God waited until the levels of these potentially destructive forces were reduced prior to the introduction of humans onto the planet. Evil as a means of spiritual growth Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.18 These trials also increase our faith - a "refining by fire."19 The Bible tells us that "all things to work together for good to those

who love God."20 Let me give you a couple concrete examples in my own life that illustrate these points. I got very sick in 1985, at which time the tests revealed I had Crohn's disease, a serious, incurable inflammatory disease of the intestines. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. I was bedridden in severe pain for two months, with the medicine doing nothing to improve my condition. I considered that I would probably spend the rest of my life in pain, in and out of hospitals. Not being able to do anything else in my own strength, I cried out to God and promised to try to follow Him and do what He wanted me to do (although I had no idea what that was at the time). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. The trial was awful at the time, but God had to break my will, so that, when I heard the gospel of Jesus

Christ three years later, I accepted it and turned my life over to Jesus, which has been the greatest joy of my life. In addition, I am much more thankful for my good health since that time of trial, and have been more sympathetic and helpful to others who are undergoing similar trials. In 1996 my wife Carole and I learned that she had an inoperable brain tumor, and was expected to live four to seven years. We had been married only seven years and had three sons, aged 5, 3 and 1 years old at the time. The time since then has been difficult, but it has produced some remarkable changes in Carole. Her interest in jewelry, clothes, and other unimportant things has been replaced by a heightened commitment to family, and raising our boys. She also is more committed to helping others and regularly offers help as she is able. In addition, during this time God has been faithful to answer our

prayers and comfort us through the many people who have loved us. What has been abundantly clear is that those people who have gone through the most severe trials are the ones who have ministered most to us. The trials these people have experienced have made them sensitive to the needs of others in similar situations, in ways that only they can understand. I know through this trial God will make me a better ambassador of Jesus Christ, and bring me opportunities for ministry which I would have ignored, had I not gone through this experience. If you talk to other Christians, you will find that it is through trials that they grow in their character and their faith. During the "easy" times, we become complacent. For the non-Christian, he sees the trials as mere annoyance or pointless suffering, often resulting in bitterness. Conclusion God did not design this universe to be perfect, but as a

temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity (in the new creation, which will be perfect). The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character. All people will suffer at least somewhat because of bad choices that others make. In addition, because of the temporary nature of the universe, some bad things will happen to us due to "bad luck" or chance. However, these things will teach us to be more sensitive to the needs of others, and will prepare us to show God's love to others when they suffer through similar things. God want us to learn from this life, not just have a party.

<< back Related Pages Did God Create Evil - Does the Bible Say So? Southeast Asia Earthquake and Tsunami- Where was God? Where was God During the World Trade Center Attack? The Incredible Design of the Earth and Our Solar System Accurate Biblical Descriptions of Scientific Principles References Now when Abram was

ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. (Genesis 17:1) But I trust in Your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in Your salvation. (Psalms 13:5)"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." ( 3:16) And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. (1 4:16) "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. (Deuteronomy 32:4)"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ( 5:48) And God called the dry land earth,

and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:10)See also Genesis 1:4, 12, 18, 21, 25. And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31) The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (Genesis 2:18) When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. (Hebrews 9:11)that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. (Romans 8:21-22) Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Revelation 21:1) "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17)He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Revelation 21:4) "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. (Isaiah 66:22) The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly shows that the universe was designed to be temporary. According to the most recent evidence, there is not enough matter in the universe to cause to contract.

Therefore, the universe will continue to expand indefinitely and all the stars will eventually burn out and life would not be possible for the entire rest of the history of the universe. Even if there were enough matter to cause the eventual collapse of the universe, such a collapse would result in the "Big Crunch" - the state in which all the mass would be concentrated in one giant blob for the entire rest of the history of the universe (again life would be impossible). Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' ( 22:37) See also Deuteronomy 6:5. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. (Revelation 7:9) God, in His wisdom and sovereignty created us with significantly less power and ability than He has, probably because He knew the evil we would have been capable of, had we been created with His abilities and power. Therefore we were created with complete free-will within our limited framework of 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. God, in contrast, exists is at least 10 dimensions of space and at least 2 dimensions of time. See Humans Really Are Different! Rare disease makes girl unable to feel pain from MSNBC. Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. ( 1:2-4) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1 1:6-7) "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28) http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html Last updated January 1, 2005 Home Apologetics Answers for Atheists Design vs. Evolution Biblical Creation Bible Authenticity Slideshows Christian Theology Aberrant Theology Christian Tribulation Christian Life Issues Discovery Course God's Love Abortion Discussion Forum Links Book Reviews Ministry Info About us Contact us Privacy Policy RSS Feed Link to Us Newsletter General Site Help Send an e-Card Webmaster Resources Personal Pages Humor Search Advanced Search Site Map Site Helps Print Page Translate En Español Email Page Help I can't see! Bookmark Us Report page errors Features Answers Rational atheism beliefs? Reason & Christianity Bible is false? Evil and suffering Bible is racist? Bible is sexist? Evidence of supernatural New Pages Book Review: Why We Believe What We Believe Wal-Mart Bible Letter-Rebuttal Christianity as myth? Pascal's Wager? Modern Eugenics Review:

Earth Turns Heaven Review: The Language of God Christians and Premarital Sex Does God Approve of Slavery? Battle Hymn of the Republic Deceptive Global Warming Article in L.A Times Captives of a Concept Review 3rd Century Christian Church 10th Century B.C. Written Hebrew Is Confession Necessary for Forgiveness? Was Adam Created as an Immortal Being? Millions of Years of Death and Suffering Gospel of Judas Fetal Pain During Abortions? Internet Filtering Software Is Global Warming Real? Trouble in Paradise Why Deism Fails as a Philosophical Paradigm Invisible Pink Unicorns, Santa Claus and God Thou Shall Not Kill- What About God? Forgiveness of Sin for All People? Are We Condemned by Original Sin? Doesn't Genesis One Contradict Genesis Two? One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Is Living Together a Good Idea? Okay for Christians to Use Marijuana? Home | Answers | Design | Creation | Bible | SlidesRandy Danforth <cjd9460@...> wrote: -What a huge load of B.S.!!!!! I'm atheist and I'm offended by that. Religion does not equal morals. Not believing in religion does not make you evil or wicked. How very christian of you to say that though.-- In , Hillbilly Tim <knoxweb1@...> wrote:>> SHOULD CHRISTIAN MORALS INFLUENCE PUBLIC LIFE? > Many Americans have believed the lie that we should not allow those who practice Christian religious morals to impose those good principles on the public. What is wrong

with influencing the public with good? True Biblical standards will always create an environment for the good of all, while wicked standards will allow evil to overcome good. If Christian and Biblical moral practices are not incorporated into our national life, evil men will impose upon us their wicked interpretation of "freedom" i.e., the right to do evil in the name of freedom.> > > lia godfrey <liagodfrey@...> wrote: Exactly Tim, I am with Ron on this discussion, I happen to be a Christian, but would never expouse my beliefs, towards others, as it is an extremely personal issue, faith and belief in God. How would you feel if Ron said 'I am saddened that Tim does not believe in allah'? Maybe it would be better to admit that your personal faith, is what drives you, and leave it at that, you cannot claim to have found the best belief, and expect everybody else, to share your beliefs, there

may be a christian site where you can discuss healing, including your beliefs, but otherwise, it is not inclusive to bring a particular religion and belief into a site that may include varying faiths, and also atheism. It is very patronising to be sad for Ron if he doesn't share your faith, and also very domineering. Neither of which traits would be condoned within in the Christian faith?- Despite sharing your 'faith', this is not really the site to> share it. Yours respectfully, Bontinini. > On 9/23/06, Gavriela de Boer <gavrieladeboer@...> wrote: Dear Tim,> > I agree with Ron that you are doing great work for> yourself and that your contributions to this forum are> wonderful. > > However, like Ron, I too feel very uncomfortable when> you express sadness for Ron and others who "didn't > know Jesus." When someone expresses ideas like this,> it feels to me

like proselytizing, an activity which I> find offensive in general and in this forum in> particular. > > I believe that you, Tim, are sensitive to others' > feelings and would never knowingly or intentionally> say anything offensive. And I'm glad that you have> found something to believe in that gives you strength.> Because I'm happy for you and respect you, I usually > just stop reading the minute I see the proselytizing > and move on to other posts.> > To be clear: I support everyone's right to believe in> anything they want. But religious beliefs are very> personal, and while I think it's perfectly appropriate > for you or anyone to express gratitude to Jesus,> Buddah, Mohammed, Allah, Yahweh...whomever...it is> totally inappropriate to express sadness or any kind> of feeling--positive or negative--about someone who> doesn't share a

particular belief system.> > Respectfully and with all best wishes to everyone,> Gavriela > > --- ronekarp <Rekarp@...> wrote:> > > I wonder how anyone on this list can think that it > > is ok to be > > talking about my personal beliefs in this public> > forum on HepC. Tim - > > I think you're doing great work for yourself and> > sharing with this > > forum, but I find it extremely offensive that you > > would post that you > > are saddened that I don't know jesus. My spiritual> > and healing paths > > are mine and have nothing to do with this list and I> > do not > > appreciate them being brought out into this public > > forum. It is > > disrespectful.> > > > I think what you're saying below is that Jesus is a> > cure for HepC. If > >

this group wants to embrace that as one of the cures> > then you're > > welcome to do that. Just please put it in the> > guidelines so others > > will know.> > > > Ron> > > > >> > > very well said barb.and thanks.i have thought alot> > about this and > > prayed.rons a great person as we know by his> > posts.but it does > > saddened me to think that ron does not know> > jesus.and there are > > others that dont as well.but if i did cure my hep c > > and the test was > > right everyone would drop what there doing and get> > it as the word > > spread about the herbs and how they cured hep c> > millions of people > > would flock to the stores true?ok well jesus saved > > me from death he > > pulled me from satans crasps and took away a 17

year> > drug addiction > > and allowed me to be a father again,and still have a> > brain left to > > think.so if i dont tell all what a great and mighty > > jesus i have how > > can you get cured!!!!> > > > > > Tim Parsons > > > > > > knoxville,tn 37931 > > > > > > 865-588-2465 x107 work> > > > > > > > > www.knoxville1.com> > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. > > Check it out.> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gavriela de Boer> de Boer Design> 505 897 3214> 410 446 6333> >

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