Guest guest Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Grettings, I'll take the meaning of your post as that you are leaving the group. Normally I regret seeing people who have contributed to discussion become frustrated and move on. However, after the following statement in your most recent post, > " I really only care about me and how things relate to me. " let me be the first to bid you good-bye... You may also find it odd that most of the regular participants of this group look upon each other as family in many respects, and actually care about others besides just themselves. Just like any family environment, not everyone agrees or gets along all of the time. But we still care about the health and well being of all members. Many here will become severly ill and some may even die as time passes. Like it or not, we're all in this together. Good luck with finding a treatment for your disease. You, just like the rest of us, are going to need it. pete > I find it odd that the way I joined this site was via > objectivemedicine.com which is a site that discusses positive > alternatives for those who can't take the interferon treatment or > those who want to enhance the chances of interferon working or want > to try to feel okay while taking interferon. > > It says on the banner of this site that we can share our discoveries > but I see now that living proof is not what is meant to be posted > here. All the studies are interesting but you know, I really only > care about me and how things relate to me. So thanks everyone for all > your research, I'll keep reading. > > I don't want to prove anything to anyone except my family, myself > and my Dr.s. I don't want the stress of cyber arguing or the work of > having to defend myself or of trying to understand old battles that > make people be angry or rude. > best of luck to all, > alii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Spoken from a person who's very first post to the list was nothing but a false accusation/allegations aimed at another list member......the irony continues to grow! Oh yes thanks for the apology....wait a minute..... that's right you never bothered to apologize!! That was kinda rude! I guess you won't be granting me the courtesy of answering my questions after I extended you that courtesy (after cyber stomping of your feet!).......and you talk of being rude!! Think about your own posts and how and what they have contributed to the list before you start throwing stones about. If you want to learn something ask questions or post articles but be willing to have a open conversation/debate on the merits of the topic at hand. heck you aren't even interested in discussing the natcell products and the problems I pointed out with them.....why is that?? If your embarrassed because you realize that you have been taken in by a shyster or a fraudulent health product don't be...but don't go away over it and please show a willingness to learn why there is a problem with these products!! On the other hand if you feel that these products are worth taking please tell us why you believe they are and what evidence convinced you that they will help you....how else are we to learn but by discussion of the topics. Don't punctuate your arrival on the next list you visit with unsubstantiated accusations : for example don't do what you did here and that is accuse me of being paid by the drug companies to spread fear and negativity simply because I speak openly and freely about products which will do nothing but empty your wallet and do nothing but provide false hope. When you say false things about people it is rude! Does sharing discoveries preclude pointing out that many of these " discoveries " aren't worth the cyberspace they take up? Alii despite what Satya thinks the reason we are here is to learn what will and what won't work for HCV and how to live with this disease. This includes discussing the validity of claims, the evidence supporting claims, and the biochemistry and physiology behind the claims.....but if that isn't your cup of tea..oh well! regards, BobK At 05:01 PM 02/02/2004, you wrote: >I find it odd that the way I joined this site was via >objectivemedicine.com which is a site that discusses positive >alternatives for those who can't take the interferon treatment or >those who want to enhance the chances of interferon working or want >to try to feel okay while taking interferon. > >It says on the banner of this site that we can share our discoveries >but I see now that living proof is not what is meant to be posted >here. All the studies are interesting but you know, I really only >care about me and how things relate to me. So thanks everyone for all >your research, I'll keep reading. > >I don't want to prove anything to anyone except my family, myself >and my Dr.s. I don't want the stress of cyber arguing or the work of >having to defend myself or of trying to understand old battles that >make people be angry or rude. >best of luck to all, >alii > > > >---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 let me be the first to bid you good-bye... wrong.... >>I'll keep reading. I hadn't noticed this.... >>But we still care about the health and well being of all > members. >Good luck with finding a treatment for your disease. Thanks I have already... Well if I wasn't sick with this disease I sure wouldn't be in here ,I humbly apoligise if my honesty offended you.... > " I really only care about me and how things relate to me. " .... even die as time passes. Some ?? > > I find it odd that the way I joined this site was via > > objectivemedicine.com which is a site that discusses positive > > alternatives for those who can't take the interferon treatment or > > those who want to enhance the chances of interferon working or want > > to try to feel okay while taking interferon. > > > > It says on the banner of this site that we can share our > discoveries > > but I see now that living proof is not what is meant to be posted > > here. All the studies are interesting but you know, I really only > > care about me and how things relate to me. So thanks everyone for > all > > your research, I'll keep reading. > > > > I don't want to prove anything to anyone except my family, myself > > and my Dr.s. I don't want the stress of cyber arguing or the work > of > > having to defend myself or of trying to understand old battles that > > make people be angry or rude. > > best of luck to all, > > alii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 > >I find it odd that the way I joined this site was via > >objectivemedicine.com which is a site that discusses positive > >alternatives for those who can't take the interferon treatment or > >those who want to enhance the chances of interferon working or want > >to try to feel okay while taking interferon. > > > >It says on the banner of this site that we can share our discoveries > >but I see now that living proof is not what is meant to be posted > >here. All the studies are interesting but you know, I really only > >care about me and how things relate to me. So thanks everyone for all > >your research, I'll keep reading. > > > >I don't want to prove anything to anyone except my family, myself > >and my Dr.s. I don't want the stress of cyber arguing or the work of > >having to defend myself or of trying to understand old battles that > >make people be angry or rude. > >best of luck to all, > >alii > > > > > > > >---------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 > > >I take Natcell, my enzymes have gone to normal, if it is expensive >protien and it is helping me then I guess my expensive protien is >helping me at the moment. is this the only supplement you are taking? >I don't want to argue about it. discussions do not have to be arguments. >Thank you, Bob, I must admit I found the atmosphere here aggressive >and when I am faced with aggression I can respond aggressively I think that happens to all of us. >My liver enzymes have been elevated and consistant for almost 20 >years, I was given some natcell by a Dr. (medical and naturopathic >combo). I took it for 2 months,my enzymes went down to normal. I >felt and feel more energy. But I would not call it a magic bullet. >I have no expectation to magically get cured by alternative >treatments. AS above is this the only thing you are taking? >Bob, I agree, but insinuations are also rude, and as I said I don't >want the stress of cyber arguing or the work of having to defend >myself or of trying to understand old battles that make people be >angry or rude. Well you seem to agree that your comments were also rude. Now since we might all be guilty parties let's move on without trying to dissect it further. I cannot take >the treatment that the western medical researchers and community are >offering to most people with hcv. I don't recall the contraindications that preclude you from taking inf based treatments. I am curious is you are taking other supplements. regards, BobK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 No Bob, I also take vitamin C, B complex, mag/calcium, a multi w/o iron and for the last 2 weeks, a vitamin b12/folic acid. I took alpha lipoic acid for a week and then I got a very sore tongue. I have a very trustworthy Dr./naturopath who generally keeps me from usless suppliments, unfortunatly I took the ALA without his first testing me. I found a study on ALA and realized that they were making sure that the hcv-ers that were doing this suppliment needed to be careful of the B's. After making sure it wasn't thrush my other Dr. gave me a B12 shot and suggested I take the extra B12/folic suppliment for a while. It hasn't helped much. Thank you for asking. Bob I have severe allergies and depression. Although I know that people can get through the treatment with anti-D's my Dr.s feel that it is better to " wait for newer therapy. " (Their words) I am bitter, I was given this disease by medical mismanagement and now they say to try to " take care til then " alii > > > > > > >I take Natcell, my enzymes have gone to normal, if it is expensive > >protien and it is helping me then I guess my expensive protien is > >helping me at the moment. > > is this the only supplement you are taking? > > >I don't want to argue about it. > > discussions do not have to be arguments. > > > >Thank you, Bob, I must admit I found the atmosphere here aggressive > >and when I am faced with aggression I can respond aggressively > > > I think that happens to all of us. > > > >My liver enzymes have been elevated and consistant for almost 20 > >years, I was given some natcell by a Dr. (medical and naturopathic > >combo). I took it for 2 months,my enzymes went down to normal. I > >felt and feel more energy. But I would not call it a magic bullet. > >I have no expectation to magically get cured by alternative > >treatments. > > AS above is this the only thing you are taking? > > > >Bob, I agree, but insinuations are also rude, and as I said I don't > >want the stress of cyber arguing or the work of having to defend > >myself or of trying to understand old battles that make people be > >angry or rude. > > Well you seem to agree that your comments were also rude. Now since we > might all be guilty parties let's move on without trying to dissect it further. > > I cannot take > >the treatment that the western medical researchers and community are > >offering to most people with hcv. > > I don't recall the contraindications that preclude you from taking inf > based treatments. I am curious is you are taking other supplements. > > regards, > BobK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 >alii, >I found a study on ALA and realized that they were making sure that >the hcv-ers that were doing this suppliment needed to be careful of >the B's. Could you post the study you found? > I >was given this disease by medical mismanagement and now they say to >try to " take care til then " What are you referring too when yousay " medical mismanagement " ? regards, BobK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Subject: 4 clinical trials & one petition re: supplements, if you are from USA Here they are. 5 documents are being sent to you. 3 trials re: Blood tests better than biopsy for determining state of liver (new study = Aug. '03) 1 trial re: Anti-oxidant combination for liver 1 for US citizens- petition to stop our government from taking away access to supplements I copied all these documents in full with al the references and from where they were sent to me. Biochemical Markers Accurately Predict Significant Fibrosis Biochemical Markers Accurately Predict Significant Fibrosis By Boyle, MD Liver biopsy remains the gold standard for assessing hepatitis C virus (HCV)-related liver injury, including inflammation and fibrosis. Liver biopsy is an invasive procedure, however, and even in the best hands is associated with a low rate of complications including bleeding and infection. In a study published in AIDS, investigators attempted to determine whether an algorithm could be constructed that estimated the degree of liver injury incurred by the patient using non- invasive markers. The study was a cross-sectional, cohort study in a French tertiary-care hospital that enrolled 130 HIV/HCV-co- infected patients with a liver biopsy and serum available for the laboratories. The investigators found that a non-invasive index of biochemical markers accurately predicted fibrosis in HIV/HCV-co- infected individuals. The use of a five-marker index (including bilirubin, GGT, haptoglobin, apolipoprotein A1, and a2- macroglobulin).was able to distinguish, with a relatively high degree of accuracy, between clinically important outcomes. Using certain statistically-derived cut-offs, the five- marker index had a positive predictive value for septal fibrosis of 86% and a negative predictive value of 93%. If biopsy was restricted to patients with scores in an intermediate range (i.e., those with suboptimal predictive values), the use of the five-marker index could potentially reduce the indication the need for liver biopsy by 55%, with 89% accuracy. The authors conclude, " An index including five biochemical markers accurately predicts significant fibrosis in patients with HIV/HCV co-infection, and may substantially reduce the necessity for liver biopsy. " If these data are confirmed in larger trials, it may be possible to avoid liver biopsy in a number of HIV/HCV co- infected certain patients. 04/02/03 Reference R Myers and others. Serum biochemical markers accurately predict liver fibrosis in HIV and hepatitis C virus co-infected patients. AIDS 2003;17:721-725. © Copyright 2003 by HIV and Hepatitis.com. All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of articles for personal or educational use is encouraged and does not require permission from the publisher. Permission to re-print copyrighted articles is almost always granted, but does require written permission from the publisher (email publisher@...) Return to Top Stories HIV AND AIDS | HEPATITIS B | HEPATITIS C | HIV / HBV CO- INFECTION | HIV / HCV CO-INFECTION | HEALTH AND TECHNO LOGY | TESTS | INTERNET CONFERENCE REPORTS | TELECONFERENCES | LINKS | ABOUT US | CONTACT US Chronic Hepatitis C Noninvasive Prediction of Fibrosis in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C Use of liver biopsy to determine the presence and stage of liver fibrosis is an invasive procedure that adversely affects the quality of life of patients who udergo it. Liver specialists are anxious to have at their disposal a non invasive index of blood tests and other indicators that would allow them to predict and stage fibrosis in their patients. Researchers recently developed an index for identifying patients with minimal or no fibrosis (Forns et. al). Another research group (Myers et. al.) also has developed and evaluated a different fibrosis index that has high predictive values. In a Letter to the Editor of Hepatology (May 2003), a group of gastroenterologists at the Groupe Hospitalier Pitié- Salpêtrière in Paris, who developed the latter index, review its advantages over the more recently described index by X. Forns and colleagues. Following are selected excerpts from their letter published in the current issue of Hepatology: " In a cohort of 476 untreated patients with chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV), Forns and others (1) recently developed an index that accurately identified patients with minimal hepatic fibrosis (METAVIR stage < F2). This index, including age, platelets, -glutamyl-transpeptidase, and cholesterol had good discriminative power, as shown by an area under the receiver operating characteristic (ROC) curve of .81 in the validation cohort (n = 125)…. " " As discussed by the authors, our group also has derived and validated a fibrosis index (Fibrotest; Biopredictive, Houilles, France) that includes 5 biochemical markers (apolipoprotein A1, haptoglobin, 2-macroglobulin, -glutamyl transpeptidase, and total bilirubin) and shows high predictive values…. " " We sought to compare these indices by using data collected retrospectively in 249 patients from our original population with complete biochemical data. In this group, the prevalence of F2-F4 fibrosis was 38%, and HCV genotypes (n = 136 with available data) were 1 (63%), 2 (13%), 3 (19%), 4 (4%), and 5 (2%). The areas under the ROC curves (±SE) for the identification of F2-F4 fibrosis were 0.78 ± 0.03 for the Forns index versus 0.84 ± 0.02 for the Fibrotest (P = .02), suggesting that the latter has greater discriminative power…. " " There was a continuous, almost linear, relationship between Fibrotest and the fibrosis stage, with significant differences between stages that were not observed for the Forns et al. index…. " " In addition to superior diagnostic power, the Fibrotest has several advantages over the index of Forns et. al. First, the Fibrotest is not genotype dependent, whereas the Forns and others index includes serum cholesterol, which varies with HCV genotype…. " " Second, the Forns et. al. index includes the platelet count, which is poorly standardized between laboratories. We did not include platelets in the Fibrotest so as to avoid this limitation…. " " Third, the Fibrotest has been validated in several cohorts, including patients with human immunodeficiency virus/HCV- coinfection (Myers et. al.) who often have human immunodeficiency virus- or medication-related thrombocytopenia. Moreover, the Fibrotest is responsive to changes in fibrosis attributable to interferon-based therapy…. " " In conclusion, this retrospective comparison suggests that the Fibrotest provides a more accurate estimate of HCV- related fibrosis than the index of Forns et. al. Prospective comparisons in additional centers are warranted to confirm this finding. " 04/30/03 References D Thabut and others (Departments of Hepato- Gastroenterology, Biochemistry, and Virology, Groupe Hospitalier Pitié- Salpêtrière, Paris, France). Noninvasive Prediction of Fibrosis in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C. Hepatology 37(5): 1220. May 2003. X Forns and others. Identification of chronic hepatitis C patients without hepatic fibrosis by a simple predictive model. Hepatology 2002; 36:986-992. RP Myers and others. Serum biochemical markers accurately predict liver fibrosis in HIV and hepatitis C virus-coinfected patients. AIDS 2003 (in press). Return to Top Stories ] Biochemical Markers of Liver Fibrosis and Activity Can Be Used as Surrogate Markers for Liver Biopsy in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C Date: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:42 AM Biochemical Markers of Liver Fibrosis and Activity Can Be Used as Surrogate Markers for Liver Biopsy in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C In patients infected with hepatitis C virus (HCV), recent studies have demonstrated the predictive value of combinations of simple serum biochemical markers. Abbreviations HCV hepatitis C virus FT Fibrotest AT Actitest ALT alanine aminotransferase SVR sustained virologic response GGT -glutamyl transpeptidase ROC receiver operating characteristic AUROC area under the ROC curves These markers include Fibrotest (FT) for the diagnosis of significant fibrosis (ranging from few septa to cirrhosis) and Actitestfor the assessment of necroinflammatory activity fibrosis and activity. Such results were not obtained by other diagnostic tests. The usual indication for liver biopsy in patients with chronic hepatitis C is to aid in the discussion of treatment options with the patient and for the long-term follow-up of patients to determine whether their disease is stable or whether it has progressed. Prior data suggest that FT-AT, if accurate, could act as a surrogate and lead to a significant reduction in the number of liver biopsies performed.The aim of this study was to validate the usefulness of FT- AT as surrogate markers of histologic features using the data generated from a recent randomized trial of peginterferon alfa-2b and ribavirin. Three hundred fifty-two patients who had had 2 interpretable liver biopsies and stored serum sample before and after treatment were selected. Two hundred eight patients received peginterferon alfa-2b 1.5 mcg per kg and ribavirin and 144 patients interferon alfa-2b 3 MU three times a week and ribavirin for 48 weeks. A fibrosis and an activity index combining 5 and 6 biochemical markers were assessed at baseline and at end of follow-up (24 weeks after treatment). The biochemical markers have significant predictive values both for the diagnosis of fibrosis and for activity. For the diagnosis of bridging fibrosis and/or moderate necroinflammatory activity, the area under the receiver operating characteristics curve of the activity index was 0.76 ± 0.03 at baseline and 0.82 ± 0.02 at end of follow-up. A cutoff of activity index at 0.30 (range, 0.00-1.00) had 90% sensitivity and 88% positive predictive value for the diagnosis of bridging fibrosis or moderate necroinflammatory activity. Sensitivity analyses with biopsy specimens of size greater than 15 mm suggest that a part of discordances between biochemical markers and histology were due to biopsy specimen sampling error. In conclusion, these biochemical markers of fibrosis and activity could be used as surrogate markers for liver biopsy in patients with chronic hepatitis C, both for the initial evaluation and for follow- up. This study is the seventh demonstrating that a combination of 5 (FT) or 6 biochemical markerscan have high positive or negative predictive values for diagnosing significant fibrosis and significant activity in patients with chronic hepatitis C. Although retrospective, the analyses of this study were made with an independent assessment of FT-AT, of fibrosis stages, and of activity grades. These scores are derived from tests that are not yet routine in many countries. However, all the 6 components are available in most countries. When compared with routine laboratory tests found to be predictive of activity or fibrosis, the researchers found better diagnostic values for their scores. In addition to superior diagnostic power, FT is not genotype dependent, whereas the Forns et al. index includes serum cholesterol, which varies with HCV genotype. The results show that FT-AT can also be used as surrogate markers of the histologic impact of treatment. Both indexes were associated with the virologic responses and with the histologic variations. In chronic hepatitis C, the impact of treatment on fibrosis progression and activity is related to the virologic response and, for virologic nonresponders, to the baseline stage of fibrosis and to the duration of treatment. Therefore, FT-AT could be used as surrogate markers in trials evaluating the risk-benefit of maintenance therapy, without increasing the risk and the cost because of repeated liver biopsies. Recommendation of Future Management of Chronic Hepatitis C Without Liver Biopsies From the previous results and those presented here, a simplification of the management of chronic hepatitis C is possible, particularly using a cutoff of 0.30 for AT. Because this analysis is retrospective, a randomized trial of 2 strategies comparing a strategy without and with biopsy is certainly the best scientific comparison of the respective utilities. However, this type of trial would require a very large number of patients to estimate the severe adverse events. The authors conclude, " Because of the improvement of biochemical markers and the limits and the risk of biopsy, liver biopsy should not be mandatory anymore. It is perhaps time to leave the decision regarding liver biopsy to the physician and to the patient. There is, worldwide, a lack of screening and an under prescription of treatment despite its efficacy. A simplification of liver damage assessment should accelerate the management of chronic hepatitis C. " 08/18/03 Reference T Poynard and others. Biochemical surrogate markers of liver fibrosis and activity in a randomized trial of peginterferon alfa-2b and ribavirin. Hepatology 38: 481-492. August 2003. http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hep_c/news/081803a.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 07/19/2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Subject: 4 clinical trials & one petition re: supplements, if you are from USA I think we should all be very skeptical of the results reported in the Berksons study. It has been nearly 10 years since this study was conducted and to date there are no other reported instances of remarkable healing of ESLD patients or healthier HCV patients. There are thousands of folsk taking these supplements in various combinations and to date there appears to be no influence on the progression of HCV in patients. Ask yourself why have there been no other reports of successes outside the three patients in this study? regards, BobK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 why don't bob andy and sayta exchange e-mail addresses and do your arguing and bickering privatly. or better yet get a life. Take it easy... but take it.. Pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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