Re: I'm sick of this site

September 10, 2003

Hello Satya,

I think if you were to actually read Andy's posts you would see that the

thrust of his posts is to try and present some balance to your EBM

(evidence medicine) bashing. The problem I, as well as Andy, have with

your posts is that you do not just present your story, as claimed, but go

out of your way to bash INF/Riba treatment.

For example you never miss an opportunity to call INF/RIBA poison. This is

not true and does represent a very closed mind towards treatment modalities

and in reality is very misleading for new comers to read. There is not a

thing in this world that is not a poison...remember it is the dose that

makes the poison...and EVERYTHING falls into this category. INF/RIBA are

compounds which have a proven track record in eradicating the Hepatitis C

virus...there is also nothing else, so-called alternative or EBM, which can

lay claim to this success. You do try to vilify these drugs and minimize

their successes at every chance you get...this goes far beyond telling your

story and presenting helpful information on HCV. If you were to keep

things in perspective you would not get so many responses to your posts.

You also seem to be unaware or at least ignoring the fact that 2/3 of

people diagnosed with HCV will have mild disease after many years of

infection. These people, yourself included, will not have their disease

progress to serious liver damage...regardless if they have some protocol or

not. It is quite possible that you would be fine if you did nothing as are

the many others with mild disease but you fail to even acknowledge this

aspect of HCV treatment.

There is a body of evidence building which points to SSKT protocols

having the potential to slow the progression of fibrosis but there is no

documentation of this as of today. REsearch is ongoing to understand why

2/3 (roughly) of the people taking this formula are achieving normal enzyme

levels...the question reamins however, as to how this relates to the

progression of fibrosis.

I have never advocated INF/RIBA tx for everyone. There are many

contraindications which need to be addressed. There are also a small

precentage of people who have long-lasting problems after treatment. While

these type of adverse events are in the minority they are very real and

serious to the patient suffering the ill effects.. Andy and I have never

discounted these facts but we do recognize that people have a myriad of

response to drugs ...of any type. Under that Bell-Shaped curve

representing a population there are the left and right tails of that curve

which in the case of INF/RIBA contain both the very sensitive patients

suffering lasting effects and the ones which feel no effects from the tx

regime whatsoever. Everyone else falls somewhere in between the two.

Another problem Andy and I have with anecdotal evidence is that there is no

denominator to help determine how benificial any " protocol " is likely to be

in a population. Without the denominator a person cannot evaluate the

likelyhood that it would be worthwhile to pursue a specific regime. If a

INF/RIBA tx were touted on only the anecdotal stories of successes it would

present a very misleading picture to the patient. With the failures

included we get a much better picture of what the actual chances of SVR

might be....this is NEVER found with so-called alternative regimes....thus

the problem. I doubt many people would go to the trouble or expense to

pursue a tx protocol that has a 1% chance of success...without a

denominator it is impossible to determine what the actual percentage might

be...do you understand how this works?

Satya despite your claims of innocence you are very guilty, as are others,

of stooping to a very low level when you, and others, resort to simple name

calling. It would be much better if you were to counter the arguments with

something of substance. When people start calling me names and attaching

various labels I consider this as conceeding the argument to me since

nothing of substance or even related to the topic at hand is forthcoming.

If you do not wish to be percieved this way the solution is to develop

better debating skills and stick to the topic rather than the childish name

calling. Draggin out your undergraduate degrees in phys ed or whatever it

might be in an attempt at an argument from authority is sure to draw

fire.....and rightly so in my opinion. There are many here much more

educated than you but they do not resort to such transparent arguments and

style of arguing. Strawmen and ad hominem do not lead to a meaningful

debate. Also remember it is OK to state that you do not understand a topic

in its entirety....this is much preferrable to personal attacks.

Satya while you seem to have great enthusiasm for your protocol you should

try and achieve some balance to your statments and not try to mislead newly

diagnosed patients with blanket statments that INF is poison. It is

nothing more than a drug which does have a very good track record in

eradication of the hepatitis C virus. While it may not be as benign and

efficacious as we wish it is still the ONLY treatment regime which can make

the claim of HCV eradication in little over 50% of the patients treated.

Please try and keep this in mind when constructing your posts.

kind regards,

BobK

September 15, 2003

Thank you for this post. This is the most intelligent, honest, understandable post I have read in here for a long long time.

D

[ ] I'm sick of this site

Greetings,I've been refraining from posting to this site. Instead, I have just been reading the posts over the past month or so. This place has become little more than a forum to host the pissin' contests between Andy and Satya.OK..so Andy favors the TX and Satya is the champion for alternatives. Great! But do the two of you have to go on and on and on with the lengthy personal attacks that engulf the pages of this site? I don't believe anyone really gives a crap what the two of you think of each other. I for one am very disappointed in the direction that this forum has taken. I think I speak for others who would like to visit this site to learn more about the disease, the long term effects, and what options may be available for people with HCV wihtout the Andy and Satya sideshow. I know that Jeanine London doesn't have a lot of fans here, but I can tell you there was alot more information sharing about HCV when her site was active then what can be found here at this time. There were dozens of posts containing a variety of articles pertaining to liver funtion, the digestive system, the harmful effects on the liver due to environmental pollutants, in addition to alternatives to the TX and countless articles regarding the importance of proper nutrition for the HCV challenged liver. While there have been a number of interesting posts here from both sides, all to often the topic becomes mired in continuous mud slinging between the two parties. It's like watching two political opponents slugging it out, but much less entertaining I might add. I wish the two of you would just bury the hatchet and move on for the sake of others. Many people who have just learned they have HCV are looking for answers and options. Those of us who have been dealing with the disease longer are interested in how others are facing the challenge.Thanks for the info on Jay's stuff and Dr. Zhang. As far as the Mega H goes...I used it for a year and found it of no use. Perhaps others think it's a great product but it did nothing for me. And for the combo TX, I think I'm too old (50) to put my body through that at this point in my life, but I wouldn't rule it out if my circumstances were different, nor should anyone else. We all have to come to terms with the dragon and deal with it as each of us sees fit. It's a personal choice, but it must be a well informed choice. The more we learn about the disease the better informed we can be to make the right choice for ourselves. Unfortunately this forum has lost site of that concept. I know my opinion is just that...my opinion. It has litte if any value, but I wanted to share it. I wish all of you the best of health. good luck, pete P.S.Here's one for you. 60 minutes is running a story about a convicted felon, serving prison time in CA that just received a heart transplant. Paid for by taxpayeres of course. The Supreme Court has given those in prison something that the rest of us are not entitled to...the right to healthcare. Can't afford that liver transplant? Get throw in prison in CA... it just might save your life. Our government has no problem spending billions in Iraq, but refuses to provide healthcare to the citizens of the richest nation on earth.We need healthcare reform in this country now! Remember that in November 2004.

September 15, 2003

TO SATYA & ANDY -

I think it's safe to say that everyone who frequents this site have just about had it with the two of you bickering back and forth.

Why don't you do the members a favor and use this site only to post pertinent messages dealing with meaningful topics?

Then email each other PRIVATELY to argue & bash & put down one another. You will be doing the members & yourselves a great service.

Mike/NYC

September 15, 2003

Hi pete, I hope you don't leave. I'm also sorry you don't see clear to place the blame where it belongs. This is a forum for sharing and presenting info on hep c. Whenever I share my own personal experiences concerning my treatment and progress, Andy always steps up to bash me. I'm sorry but I don't take shit in real life and I'm not going to take it here. Andy is rude to attack my every post. I have a right to post here and I will continue to post here. I always post constructively unless I'm bashed. Too bad there isn't a moderator for this group--Andy would be gone. ......Unfortunately, Andy can't seem to resist bashing me. So your problem is with him, not me. First I'm lumped with Jeannine, now it's Andy. Jesus, what's so special about me that causes Andy to do this? I have no idea, but in my opinion it is simple rudeness and borders on being disturbed. I call 'em like I see' em, but I have never been one to START one of these "matches". As you may notice, Andy posts, ad nauseam, lengthy posts dissing my character, etc,, (when all I have done is state my personal experience, usually very politely) When he does this I come back with a simple one liner or two. I'm not interested in reading what he has to say about me because it's garbage. If you have noticed, I have NEVER attacked Andy first, but have only DEFENDED myself--he has always been the instigator. I'm sorry if you can't see this, but that's just the way it always goes down. I wish he would just leave me alone and ignore my posts, which are always constructive, and relate to hep c. Instead there is an instant bash. Please don't blame me for this---have it out with Andy. I'm sorry if you leave Pete. Blessings, Satya

[ ] I'm sick of this site

Greetings,I've been refraining from posting to this site. Instead, I have just been reading the posts over the past month or so. This place has become little more than a forum to host the pissin' contests between Andy and Satya.OK..so Andy favors the TX and Satya is the champion for alternatives. Great! But do the two of you have to go on and on and on with the lengthy personal attacks that engulf the pages of this site? I don't believe anyone really gives a crap what the two of you think of each other. I for one am very disappointed in the direction that this forum has taken. I think I speak for others who would like to visit this site to learn more about the disease, the long term effects, and what options may be available for people with HCV wihtout the Andy and Satya sideshow. I know that Jeanine London doesn't have a lot of fans here, but I can tell you there was alot more information sharing about HCV when her site was active then what can be found here at this time. There were dozens of posts containing a variety of articles pertaining to liver funtion, the digestive system, the harmful effects on the liver due to environmental pollutants, in addition to alternatives to the TX and countless articles regarding the importance of proper nutrition for the HCV challenged liver. While there have been a number of interesting posts here from both sides, all to often the topic becomes mired in continuous mud slinging between the two parties. It's like watching two political opponents slugging it out, but much less entertaining I might add. I wish the two of you would just bury the hatchet and move on for the sake of others. Many people who have just learned they have HCV are looking for answers and options. Those of us who have been dealing with the disease longer are interested in how others are facing the challenge.Thanks for the info on Jay's stuff and Dr. Zhang. As far as the Mega H goes...I used it for a year and found it of no use. Perhaps others think it's a great product but it did nothing for me. And for the combo TX, I think I'm too old (50) to put my body through that at this point in my life, but I wouldn't rule it out if my circumstances were different, nor should anyone else. We all have to come to terms with the dragon and deal with it as each of us sees fit. It's a personal choice, but it must be a well informed choice. The more we learn about the disease the better informed we can be to make the right choice for ourselves. Unfortunately this forum has lost site of that concept. I know my opinion is just that...my opinion. It has litte if any value, but I wanted to share it. I wish all of you the best of health. good luck, pete P.S.Here's one for you. 60 minutes is running a story about a convicted felon, serving prison time in CA that just received a heart transplant. Paid for by taxpayeres of course. The Supreme Court has given those in prison something that the rest of us are not entitled to...the right to healthcare. Can't afford that liver transplant? Get throw in prison in CA... it just might save your life. Our government has no problem spending billions in Iraq, but refuses to provide healthcare to the citizens of the richest nation on earth.We need healthcare reform in this country now! Remember that in November 2004.

September 15, 2003

I don't want Andy to write to me. I want him to leave me alone. By the way, why don't YOU post something pertinent?

Re: [ ] I'm sick of this site

TO SATYA & ANDY -

I think it's safe to say that everyone who frequents this site have just about had it with the two of you bickering back and forth.

Why don't you do the members a favor and use this site only to post pertinent messages dealing with meaningful topics?

Then email each other PRIVATELY to argue & bash & put down one another. You will be doing the members & yourselves a great service.

Mike/NYC

September 15, 2003

Hi Pete, Your opinion is very valuable. I agree with you re: Jeanine

London...I loved her sharing and info. I miss her. It is horrible what

was done to her. Also, your PS is so important

for people to know....and yes, remember all of that in Nov. 2004.

Blessings to you, Margie.

[ ] I'm sick of this site

> Greetings,

>

> I've been refraining from posting to this site. Instead, I have

> just been reading the posts over the past month or so. This place

> has become little more than a forum to host the pissin' contests

> between Andy and Satya.

>

> OK..so Andy favors the TX and Satya is the champion for

> alternatives. Great! But do the two of you have to go on and on and

> on with the lengthy personal attacks that engulf the pages of this

> site? I don't believe anyone really gives a crap what the two of you

> think of each other.

>

> I for one am very disappointed in the direction that this forum has

> taken. I think I speak for others who would like to visit this site

> to learn more about the disease, the long term effects, and what

> options may be available for people with HCV wihtout the Andy and

> Satya sideshow.

>

> I know that Jeanine London doesn't have a lot of fans here, but I can

> tell you there was alot more information sharing about HCV when her

> site was active then what can be found here at this time. There were

> dozens of posts containing a variety of articles pertaining to liver

> funtion, the digestive system, the harmful effects on the liver due

> to environmental pollutants, in addition to alternatives to the TX

> and countless articles regarding the importance of proper nutrition

> for the HCV challenged liver.

>

> While there have been a number of interesting posts here from both

> sides, all to often the topic becomes mired in continuous mud

> slinging between the two parties. It's like watching two political

> opponents slugging it out, but much less entertaining I might add.

>

> I wish the two of you would just bury the hatchet and move on for the

> sake of others. Many people who have just learned they have HCV are

> looking for answers and options. Those of us who have been dealing

> with the disease longer are interested in how others are facing the

> challenge.

>

> Thanks for the info on Jay's stuff and Dr. Zhang. As far as the Mega

> H goes...I used it for a year and found it of no use. Perhaps others

> think it's a great product but it did nothing for me.

>

> And for the combo TX, I think I'm too old (50) to put my body through

> that at this point in my life, but I wouldn't rule it out if my

> circumstances were different, nor should anyone else. We all have to

> come to terms with the dragon and deal with it as each of us sees

> fit. It's a personal choice, but it must be a well informed choice.

> The more we learn about the disease the better informed we can be to

> make the right choice for ourselves. Unfortunately this forum has

> lost site of that concept.

>

> I know my opinion is just that...my opinion. It has litte if any

> value, but I wanted to share it. I wish all of you the best of

> health.

>

> good luck, pete

>

> P.S.

> Here's one for you. 60 minutes is running a story about a convicted

> felon, serving prison time in CA that just received a heart

> transplant. Paid for by taxpayeres of course. The Supreme Court has

> given those in prison something that the rest of us are not entitled

> to...the right to healthcare. Can't afford that liver transplant?

> Get throw in prison in CA... it just might save your life.

>

> Our government has no problem spending billions in Iraq, but refuses

> to provide healthcare to the citizens of the richest nation on earth.

> We need healthcare reform in this country now! Remember that in

> November 2004.

>

September 15, 2003

please take me off this site I just joined...this is the second e-mail I recieved from angry people I dont even know.. and i'm dying from this horrible disease!

September 15, 2003

Hi Bob, I have read your post. I will honestly answer it. Point One: Now you are also ridiculing me, saying that I have a phys. ed. degree, which I do NOT, as you know very well, because I have clarified this every time Andy has said this. This is just another of his lies to discredit me. you know very well he is using this as a dig--My B.A. is in Psychology and Elementary Education with a Music minor, that, by the way, I got 24 years ago--not exactly qualifications which have anything to do with hep c, and I am not touting them as so---so what's the deal with the ridicule of my degrees? The qualifications of mine that do have to do with hep c were not gained in an accredited university, but at various well-known training centers worldwide over the past 30+ years and have to do with Holistic Health, as you also know. Then there are my 30 odd years of EXPERIENCE in the field (of Holistic Health). But that has no merit in your eyes. So what? Who died and left you two in charge of what is the Truth? I do have credentials which back my statements, insofar as the limits of my field go, so why diminish them? I have never said I am a physician, or have tried to inflate my credentials. ....Point Two: As far as posting things of substance, I believe I do this consistently--or don't you read everything presented here? I DO read everything--it all comes directly to my mailbox. ...Point Three: Also, I don't believe there are any prerequisites to joining this site, therefore I will decline to take the recommended classes in debate. I'm not interested in debating. I'm interesting in healing of the body/mind/spirit, music, crystals, gardening, animals, etc. I'm not like you, or Andy--and I don't have to BE like you. You just can't accept differences of opinion, or differences in people's "styles". I don't care if you two don't like me. I think you are just closed-minded towards people, and that is just my opinion. You just don't like me as a person, and that's okay with me-=-I just don't see where it justifies ridicule (misrepresenting my degree in this post--you don't think I know this is a dig?) I asked Andy to leave me alone. Now I ask you to leave me alone. Andy is the one who wants a debate. I am just stating my opinions about my personal protocol, and sharing my personal stories. And providing encouragement and prayers to those who are suffering. You just can't take it for what it's worth. My PERSONAL opinion. I don't want to debate. I'm not trying to prove anything to you or anyone. I just want (and have the right) to express my opinion without ridicule...Point Four: Once in awhile I may come across something on the internet interesting enough to post to the group--mostly I am here to learn from others and give prayer and encouragement.--honestly I don't spend much time researching hep c on the internet --I leave that to many of you--so I don't go researching something like a product unless I'm personally going to use it, or am researching it for a client. I usually post an article related to hep c only if it happens to come in some newsletter I'm signed up for. I'm not like Andy who belongs so some big hep c group or whatever--hep c is a small part of my life, as it should be, for possibly and most probably it will be gone and done with soon--I refuse to make my whole life and identity about hep c and health problems...Point Five: I'm sorry you don't like me using the word "poison"--oh well--I call it like I see it--I figure if it's going to kill my healthy cells that I need to sustain my life, well, to me that's poison, in my opinion. I have a First Amendment right to use any word I choose. I am not using profanity, and I'm not attacking anyone's character or personality, just describing a product. Why don't you lighten up? . Point Six: I don't feel I'm required to post proof of every word I utter on this group. .....So Bob, I have tried to answer your points as honestly as possible. Now, I would like to drop it, if you don't mind. I'm not interested in your opinion of me AT ALL. I don't want or need your friendship OR approval, and you're neither my therapist, thank you, NOR my mother, NOR my teacher,...so why don't you quit lecturing me? Let's just agree to disagree on this one......Satya

Re: [ ] I'm sick of this site

Hello Satya,I think if you were to actually read Andy's posts you would see that thethrust of his posts is to try and present some balance to your EBM(evidence medicine) bashing. The problem I, as well as Andy, have withyour posts is that you do not just present your story, as claimed, but goout of your way to bash INF/Riba treatment.For example you never miss an opportunity to call INF/RIBA poison. This isnot true and does represent a very closed mind towards treatment modalitiesand in reality is very misleading for new comers to read. There is not athing in this world that is not a poison...remember it is the dose thatmakes the poison...and EVERYTHING falls into this category. INF/RIBA arecompounds which have a proven track record in eradicating the Hepatitis Cvirus...there is also nothing else, so-called alternative or EBM, which canlay claim to this success. You do try to vilify these drugs and minimizetheir successes at every chance you get...this goes far beyond telling yourstory and presenting helpful information on HCV. If you were to keepthings in perspective you would not get so many responses to your posts.You also seem to be unaware or at least ignoring the fact that 2/3 ofpeople diagnosed with HCV will have mild disease after many years ofinfection. These people, yourself included, will not have their diseaseprogress to serious liver damage...regardless if they have some protocol ornot. It is quite possible that you would be fine if you did nothing as arethe many others with mild disease but you fail to even acknowledge thisaspect of HCV treatment. There is a body of evidence building which points to SSKT protocolshaving the potential to slow the progression of fibrosis but there is nodocumentation of this as of today. REsearch is ongoing to understand why2/3 (roughly) of the people taking this formula are achieving normal enzymelevels...the question reamins however, as to how this relates to theprogression of fibrosis.I have never advocated INF/RIBA tx for everyone. There are manycontraindications which need to be addressed. There are also a smallprecentage of people who have long-lasting problems after treatment. Whilethese type of adverse events are in the minority they are very real andserious to the patient suffering the ill effects.. Andy and I have neverdiscounted these facts but we do recognize that people have a myriad ofresponse to drugs ...of any type. Under that Bell-Shaped curverepresenting a population there are the left and right tails of that curvewhich in the case of INF/RIBA contain both the very sensitive patientssuffering lasting effects and the ones which feel no effects from the txregime whatsoever. Everyone else falls somewhere in between the two.Another problem Andy and I have with anecdotal evidence is that there is nodenominator to help determine how benificial any "protocol" is likely to bein a population. Without the denominator a person cannot evaluate thelikelyhood that it would be worthwhile to pursue a specific regime. If aINF/RIBA tx were touted on only the anecdotal stories of successes it wouldpresent a very misleading picture to the patient. With the failuresincluded we get a much better picture of what the actual chances of SVRmight be....this is NEVER found with so-called alternative regimes....thusthe problem. I doubt many people would go to the trouble or expense topursue a tx protocol that has a 1% chance of success...without adenominator it is impossible to determine what the actual percentage mightbe...do you understand how this works?Satya despite your claims of innocence you are very guilty, as are others,of stooping to a very low level when you, and others, resort to simple namecalling. It would be much better if you were to counter the arguments withsomething of substance. When people start calling me names and attachingvarious labels I consider this as conceeding the argument to me sincenothing of substance or even related to the topic at hand is forthcoming.If you do not wish to be percieved this way the solution is to developbetter debating skills and stick to the topic rather than the childish namecalling. Draggin out your undergraduate degrees in phys ed or whatever itmight be in an attempt at an argument from authority is sure to drawfire.....and rightly so in my opinion. There are many here much moreeducated than you but they do not resort to such transparent arguments andstyle of arguing. Strawmen and ad hominem do not lead to a meaningfuldebate. Also remember it is OK to state that you do not understand a topicin its entirety....this is much preferrable to personal attacks.Satya while you seem to have great enthusiasm for your protocol you shouldtry and achieve some balance to your statments and not try to mislead newlydiagnosed patients with blanket statments that INF is poison. It isnothing more than a drug which does have a very good track record ineradication of the hepatitis C virus. While it may not be as benign andefficacious as we wish it is still the ONLY treatment regime which can makethe claim of HCV eradication in little over 50% of the patients treated.Please try and keep this in mind when constructing your posts.kind regards,BobK

September 15, 2003

I learned alot from Jeannine also. I didn't always agree with her, and I let her know it. We had mutual respect in this way. My protocol was designed by me alone, but a couple of products she DID introduce to me, and was very knowledgeable about these certain products. She never gave me any inclination to think she was scamming anyone. I did not, however, agree that she should use the word "cure", which really gets alot of people riled, and rightly so. Jeannine comes off as very militant. But anyone dumb enough to jump (half-cocked without researching) after something said on the internet and honestly think and completely expect it will cure them needs to do their homework and get a clue. Or they may be incompetent and need supervision on the internet so they will not hurt themselves, as in the case of children. Just MHO...Blessings, Satya

[ ] I'm sick of this site> Greetings,>> I've been refraining from posting to this site. Instead, I have> just been reading the posts over the past month or so. This place> has become little more than a forum to host the pissin' contests> between Andy and Satya.>> OK..so Andy favors the TX and Satya is the champion for> alternatives. Great! But do the two of you have to go on and on and> on with the lengthy personal attacks that engulf the pages of this> site? I don't believe anyone really gives a crap what the two of you> think of each other.>> I for one am very disappointed in the direction that this forum has> taken. I think I speak for others who would like to visit this site> to learn more about the disease, the long term effects, and what> options may be available for people with HCV wihtout the Andy and> Satya sideshow.>> I know that Jeanine London doesn't have a lot of fans here, but I can> tell you there was alot more information sharing about HCV when her> site was active then what can be found here at this time. There were> dozens of posts containing a variety of articles pertaining to liver> funtion, the digestive system, the harmful effects on the liver due> to environmental pollutants, in addition to alternatives to the TX> and countless articles regarding the importance of proper nutrition> for the HCV challenged liver.>> While there have been a number of interesting posts here from both> sides, all to often the topic becomes mired in continuous mud> slinging between the two parties. It's like watching two political> opponents slugging it out, but much less entertaining I might add.>> I wish the two of you would just bury the hatchet and move on for the> sake of others. Many people who have just learned they have HCV are> looking for answers and options. Those of us who have been dealing> with the disease longer are interested in how others are facing the> challenge.>> Thanks for the info on Jay's stuff and Dr. Zhang. As far as the Mega> H goes...I used it for a year and found it of no use. Perhaps others> think it's a great product but it did nothing for me.>> And for the combo TX, I think I'm too old (50) to put my body through> that at this point in my life, but I wouldn't rule it out if my> circumstances were different, nor should anyone else. We all have to> come to terms with the dragon and deal with it as each of us sees> fit. It's a personal choice, but it must be a well informed choice.> The more we learn about the disease the better informed we can be to> make the right choice for ourselves. Unfortunately this forum has> lost site of that concept.>> I know my opinion is just that...my opinion. It has litte if any> value, but I wanted to share it. I wish all of you the best of> health.>> good luck, pete>> P.S.> Here's one for you. 60 minutes is running a story about a convicted> felon, serving prison time in CA that just received a heart> transplant. Paid for by taxpayeres of course. The Supreme Court has> given those in prison something that the rest of us are not entitled> to...the right to healthcare. Can't afford that liver transplant?> Get throw in prison in CA... it just might save your life.>> Our government has no problem spending billions in Iraq, but refuses> to provide healthcare to the citizens of the richest nation on earth.> We need healthcare reform in this country now! Remember that in> November 2004.>>>>>>>>>>

September 15, 2003

Hi Satya,

>Now you are also ridiculing me, saying that I have a phys. ed. degree, which I do NOT, as >you know very well, because I have clarified this every time Andy has said this.

Satya you obviously miss the point here. No one, especially me , is ridiculing your degrees. You have in the past mentioned your degrees and I did take this as an attempt to make an argument from authority....why else would you, or anyone, post their credentials? My intent was that the argument should stand on its own merits PERIOD without trying to increase credibility by inclusions of degrees or experience. That is it plain and simple no ridicule at all just my opinion that degrees and accolades contribute nothing to the basic tenent of the argument.

>My B.A. is in Psychology and Elementary Education with a Music minor, that, by the >way, I got 24 years ago--not exactly qualifications which have anything to do with hep c, >and I am not touting them as so---so what's the deal with the ridicule of my degrees?

See my comments above!

>But that has no merit in your eyes. So what? Who died and left you two in charge of what i>s the Truth?

Sigh!! here you go again with your mistaken beliefs land interpretations leading to a very defensive position. I don't think anyone, myself included, has been trying to claim they know the "truth"...I and others have pointed out inconsistencies and problems with the use of anecdotes and other unreliable or lets say less rigorous evidence pertaining to certain claims. If you are refusing to address these inconsistencies or potential problems in interpretation then I would say your mind is very closed and you should be more receptive to the information presented in the opposing arguments.

> It does not matter one I do have credentials which back my statements, insofar as the limits of my field go, so why diminish them?

Satya, Credentials do not back statements evidence does...can you see the difference?

>I DO read everything--it all comes directly to my mailbox. ...

Your replies indicate otherwise....my opinion and interpretation of your responses!

>Point Three: Also, I don't believe there are any prerequisites to joining this site, therefore I >will decline to take the recommended classes in debate. I'm not interested in debating.

You are correct that there are no prerequisites to join...the process of debate has some very good rules which keeps the dialog on topic and discourages ad hominem attacks which quite frankly you are far too free in using against others. The reference to the word "substance" is a case in point. I mentioned that you should The idea is to counter, in your argument, the information presented by the opposing viewpoint with facts and evidence to support your position not ad hominem.

> I'm interesting in healing of the body/mind/spirit, music, crystals, gardening, animals, etc. >I'm not like you, or Andy--and I don't have to BE like you.

Now where in the world did that come from! My post is merely an attempt to get you to see that ad hominem attacks do nothing to contribute to the topic at hand and have noting to do with my wanting you to be like anything. You also don't knwo me so how do you know that we aren't alike?

>You just can't accept differences of opinion, or differences in people's "styles".

That is certainly not true in any sense. What I can't accept is ad hominem attacks in place of presentation of supporting facts and evidence in the process of argument or discussion. Opinions are varied and accepted as such. Opinions are also not the same as evidence and should not be mistaken as being the same. For instance you can say that in your opinion you believe Reiki works but that is far different from any documentation that your opinion is actually true...can you see that difference?

>I don't care if you two don't like me. I think you are just closed-minded towards people, >and that is just my opinion.

Your sounding paranoid now in my opinion. This is not a popularity contest but rather a means for the transfer of information. In that process of information transfer questions may be raised as to the validity of the information and the evidence either supporting that information or negating it. The discussion is on the topic not the person. This simple fact seems to escape many people and when concepts or information is questioned it is the concept (the topic) being questioned not the person. You will have to learn to differentiate between the two.

>You just don't like me as a person, and that's okay with me-=-I just don't see where it >justifies ridicule (misrepresenting my degree in this post--you don't think I know this is a >dig?)

More paranoia here Satya. You have no idea what I think of you or anyone else as a person so I don't see how you can reach this conclusion.

> I asked Andy to leave me alone. Now I ask you to leave me alone. Andy is the one who >wants a debate. I am just stating my opinions about my personal protocol, and sharing >my personal stories.

As I pointed out before you go far beyond just relating your protocol and stories. When you make comments about INF which are unsubstantiated then those comments are open to criticism. If you state that it is just your opinion then someone will probably present data that shows that it is not poison but rather a drug which is being used to eradicate the hepatitis C virus...and quite successfully I might add, even if it doesn' have the greatest side-effect profile. Which cell(s) needed to survive do you think INF kills?

>And providing encouragement and prayers to those who are suffering. You just can't take >it for what it's worth. My PERSONAL opinion. I don't want to debate. I'm not trying to prove >anything to you or anyone. I just want (and have the right) to express my opinion without >ridicule...

Once again you need to be able to seperate criticism of the person as an individual and the topic being discussed be it reiki or INF.

Point Five: I'm sorry you don't like me using the word "poison"--oh well--I call it like I see it--I figure if it's going to kill my healthy cells that I need to sustain my life, well, to me that's poison, in my opinion.

As mentioned before how do you think the thousands of people who have eradicated this virus with INF view this drug. That is all that INF is a tool to reach a end. There are side-effects associated with the drug but that is true of everything. Int he case of many alternative the side effect amy be that it simply does nothing for the persons health and amounts to a waste of money and a delay in effective treatmetnt

>I have a First Amendment right to use any word I choose. I am not using profanity, and I>'m not attacking anyone's character or personality, just describing a product. Why don't you lighten up? .

Then you should have no problems with other people describing the products you present here with disparaging dialog...isn't that fair and merely representative of other peoples first amendment rights as you are claiming.

>Point Six: I don't feel I'm required to post proof of every word I utter on this group.

If you wish to make effective arguments as to the merits of the topics you are posting about then you should consider providing more evidence to support those positions. The refusal to post supporting information often conveys the appearence that there is nothing but conjecture to support your arguments postion. many of us are not willing to base our health on conjecture.

kind regards,

BobK

September 15, 2003

Sherry,

I can see why you're confused. Instead of finding a site where you can find useful information and support, you have stumbled on to a site where 2 people email each other back and forth all day long spewing nasty remarks.

I am unsubscribing from this site myself today, and will be looking for a new site that will try to help, not hurt each other. If anyone knows of such a site, please let me know.

Thanks, and good luck to all,

Mike/NYC

PS for all that crap about healing, and white light, and blessings, it seems that the karma returning to the instigators of these silly bickering must be pretty black. GROW UP

September 16, 2003

just more blah blah--I'm done reading your bullshit---I've got better things to do...