Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Nancie, You wrote: > ... The higher doses > in the allopathic world are considered off label uses which happens ALL the > time with other medications and no one says boo.... Actually, the Code of Federal Regulations says a lot more than boo. For example, it requires that, " If physicians use a product for an indication not in the approved labeling, they have the responsibility to be well informed about the product, to base its use on firm scientific rationale and on sound medical evidence, and to maintain records of the product's use and effects. " Many hospitals and universities require IRB or other institutional oversight for off label uses. Further, if the off label use is part of a clinical study protocol or investigation, 21 CFR 312.2((1) requires submission of an IND (Investigational New Drug Application) and all the accompanying rigmarole, unless a list of requirements are met, one of which is full informed consent of the patient. I think was acting in the spirit of that law, in wanting everyone to be aware that over 3 grains of Armour was an exceptional prescription and not at all usual, as Gracia always claims. I am confident that Forest's statement that most people respond to 1-2 grains is based on real statistical records and not a wild guess or exaggeration to protect themselves, since Federal law requires them to keep and report those records. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it yourself and see how you like it. Gracia I think was acting in the spirit of that law, in wanting everyone to be aware that over 3 grains of Armour was an exceptional prescription and not at all usual, as Gracia always claims. I am confident that Forest's statement that most people respond to 1-2 grains is based on real statistical records and not a wild guess or exaggeration to protect themselves, since Federal law requires them to keep and report those records. Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1604 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 5:50 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Well I guess I am one of those peeps, because I was at my best when I was taking 2 grains. I never felt better and I took it with food. I had plenty of energy and was doing yoga in the morning and a one mile walk daily. I lost 27 lbs in 6 weeks on that amount. Now trying to prove it to my Doc to put me back on the 2 grains. I go for my tests this Saturday. My Doc is finally believing that armour works for me better. Betty Re: Off label uses > > > > > horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it > yourself and see how you like it. > > Gracia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Betty, that is AWESOME ‹ 27 lbs in 6 weeks, way to go Glad you are feeling good on what you take as well ‹ it¹s always great to hear that. sue On 8/11/08 3:45 PM, " Betty " <bjshamrock@...> wrote: > > > > Well I guess I am one of those peeps, because I was at my best when I was > taking 2 grains. I never felt better and I took it with food. I had plenty > of energy and was doing yoga in the morning and a one mile walk daily. I > lost 27 lbs in 6 weeks on that amount. > > Now trying to prove it to my Doc to put me back on the 2 grains. I go for my > tests this Saturday. My Doc is finally believing that armour works for me > better. > > Betty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Chuck, I have found a couple of places [Forest Pharmaceuticals site and {I think} Armourthyroid.com on which dosage with Armour are discussed. On both sites I note that 3 grains [180 mg] is the maximum dosage listed; however the wording does not seem to be specific that 180 mg is the maximum allowed dosage. While I do not understand the reasoning behind taking so much more T3 and T4 than a healthy person makes [after all, it IS suppose to be a replacement program???] I don't see a place that specifically says no one should take more than 3 grains. Do you have such a reference, or are you relying upon the same info that I've found? Thanks, > I think was acting in the spirit of that law, in wanting everyone > to be aware that over 3 grains of Armour was an exceptional prescription > and not at all usual, as Gracia always claims. I am confident that > Forest's statement that most people respond to 1-2 grains is based on > real statistical records and not a wild guess or exaggeration to protect > themselves, since Federal law requires them to keep and report those > records. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Gracia, You wrote: > > horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it > yourself and see how you like it. > Again, the wording in Forest's dosing guidelines suggest that they were looking at the frequency distribution of Armour prescriptions, which evidently run well over 2,000,000 per year. On what size data base did you base your " horse puckey " evaluation? However, there are several old studies that came to the same conclusions. The oldest were summarized in a book by the endocrinologist and researcher, H. Hutton: _Practical Endocrinology_, Springfield, C. , 1966. Hutton was actually an advocate of Armour at a time when Synthroid had taken over the market. He said, " Thyroid is a much maligned agent. Certainly it should be administered only under the supervision of a physician, but the danger likely to result from taking it has been portrayed in such lurid fashion that many medical men seem hesitant about giving it. As a matter of fact, overdosage seldom occurs. Signs of such an event are so easily recognized before any damage is done that any medical man should use it wherever he believes it is indicated. " For dosing, he said, " The tachycardia, tremor, palpitation and increased nervousness [from overdosage] are easily recognized so that one may accurately administer it without resorting to frequent determination of the BMR, etc. The tolerance for it varies over an extremely wide range with different patients. Patients much in need of it may tolerate less than one grain [of desiccated thyroid] per day, others who seem to need it no worse, tolerate up to 60 grains per day without any discernible ill effects. This, of course, could have been due to a difference in absorption of the drug from the gut. " However, Hutton concluded that 120-to-180 mg (approximately 2-to-3 grains) daily was optimal for almost all myxedematous patients, the most severe condition, according to your ancient Merck Manual. Here is a more recent study: Wren, J.C. " Symptomatic atherosclerosis: prevention or modification by treatment with desiccated thyroid. " J Am Geriatr Soc 1971;19:7-22. Wren administered desiccated thyroid for five years to 132 patients with symptomatic atherosclerosis. The initial dose was 15-30 mg daily, which was increased gradually over a six month period, based on clinical judgment and individual tolerance. Wren reported that in the majority of cases, the final daily dose was 120 or 180 mg, again spot on with Forest's guidelines. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Chuck docs do not Rx Armour properly. this system is dysfunctional so we cannot extrapolate a lot from it. tachycardia , nervousness, palpitation are adrenal symptoms. Gracia Gracia, You wrote: > > horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it > yourself and see how you like it. > Again, the wording in Forest's dosing guidelines suggest that they were looking at the frequency distribution of Armour prescriptions, which evidently run well over 2,000,000 per year. On what size data base did you base your " horse puckey " evaluation? However, there are several old studies that came to the same conclusions. The oldest were summarized in a book by the endocrinologist and researcher, H. Hutton: _Practical Endocrinology_, Springfield, C. , 1966. Hutton was actually an advocate of Armour at a time when Synthroid had taken over the market. He said, " Thyroid is a much maligned agent. Certainly it should be administered only under the supervision of a physician, but the danger likely to result from taking it has been portrayed in such lurid fashion that many medical men seem hesitant about giving it. As a matter of fact, overdosage seldom occurs. Signs of such an event are so easily recognized before any damage is done that any medical man should use it wherever he believes it is indicated. " For dosing, he said, " The tachycardia, tremor, palpitation and increased nervousness [from overdosage] are easily recognized so that one may accurately administer it without resorting to frequent determination of the BMR, etc. The tolerance for it varies over an extremely wide range with different patients. Patients much in need of it may tolerate less than one grain [of desiccated thyroid] per day, others who seem to need it no worse, tolerate up to 60 grains per day without any discernible ill effects. This, of course, could have been due to a difference in absorption of the drug from the gut. " However, Hutton concluded that 120-to-180 mg (approximately 2-to-3 grains) daily was optimal for almost all myxedematous patients, the most severe condition, according to your ancient Merck Manual. Here is a more recent study: Wren, J.C. " Symptomatic atherosclerosis: prevention or modification by treatment with desiccated thyroid. " J Am Geriatr Soc 1971;19:7-22. Wren administered desiccated thyroid for five years to 132 patients with symptomatic atherosclerosis. The initial dose was 15-30 mg daily, which was increased gradually over a six month period, based on clinical judgment and individual tolerance. Wren reported that in the majority of cases, the final daily dose was 120 or 180 mg, again spot on with Forest's guidelines. Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1604 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 5:50 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 , You wrote: > ... I don't see a place > that specifically says no one should take more than 3 grains.... Forest leaves the door open by saying that if you need more than 3 grains, it suggests compliance or absorption problems. It could also mean that something else is going on. All the studies I cited earlier included cases that needed more than 3 grains. However, they all concluded that for the vast majority of cases, no more than 3 grains was needed. I also saw a paper by Dr. Lowe criticizing another by the AACE, but it had a breakdown by how many were symptom free when the tests showed them to be euthyroid. The AACE concluded they should just let this <10% or so suffer, because the dangers of hyperT outweighed the hypoT they were suffering. Lowe argued for giving them enough hormone to suppress the symptoms, regardless of the tests. At any rate, there are at least a few percent that seem to need more than 3 grains. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 You can download the recommendations directly from the manufacturer here: http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf Look under " DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION " " ...The usual starting dose is 30 mg Armour Thyroid, with increments of 15 mg every 2 to 3 weeks... ....Most patients require 60 to 120 mg/day... ...Maintenance dosages of 60 to 120 mg/day usually result in normal serum T4 and T3 levels... " End of quote. Your information is at odds to what Forest Pharmaceuticals publishes. Perhaps you [and others] for some unknown reason DO need more T4 and T3 than a healthy body produces [then another question would be: Why?]. However, there is a lot of info on their page discussing negatives from excessive use. I still think that in order to be fair to those whom you advise to ignore the manufacturer's recommendations that you should at least be sure they know that they are exceeding those recommendations. How would you feel if someone took your advice and was seriously harmed or died??? Some of the warnings on the referenced page sound quite serious. > horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it > yourself and see how you like it. > > Gracia > I think was acting in the spirit of that law, in wanting everyone > to be aware that over 3 grains of Armour was an exceptional prescription > and not at all usual, as Gracia always claims. I am confident that > Forest's statement that most people respond to 1-2 grains is based on > real statistical records and not a wild guess or exaggeration to protect > themselves, since Federal law requires them to keep and report those > records. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Typo??? > > it no worse, tolerate up to 60 grains per day without any discernible > ill effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Not according to Forest Pharmaceuticals web site... > > Chuck docs do not Rx Armour properly. this system is dysfunctional so > we cannot extrapolate a lot from it. tachycardia , nervousness, > palpitation are adrenal symptoms. > Gracia > > Gracia, > > You wrote: > > > > horse puckey. very few peeps have success on 1--2 grains. try it > > yourself and see how you like it. > > > > Again, the wording in Forest's dosing guidelines suggest that they were > looking at the frequency distribution of Armour prescriptions, which > evidently run well over 2,000,000 per year. On what size data base did > you base your " horse puckey " evaluation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 It seems that way; but most certainly not EVERYONE. And then I wonder: Why would ANYONE need more than a full replacement dose??? Why do some people get hyper symptoms on 2 or 3 grains and some take 6 grains with no apparent negative symptoms??? > At any rate, there are at least a few percent that seem to need more > than 3 grains. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 it has to do with cell sensitvity, and with how the body uses hormones. not being able to tolerate thyroid meds or being able to tolerate a high dose with not much effect both indicate poor adrenal function. I think iodine has something to do with it too. Gracia p.s. undertreatment is soooo common--my coworker is very undertreated on 2 grains. It seems that way; but most certainly not EVERYONE. And then I wonder: Why would ANYONE need more than a full replacement dose??? Why do some people get hyper symptoms on 2 or 3 grains and some take 6 grains with no apparent negative symptoms??? > At any rate, there are at least a few percent that seem to need more > than 3 grains. > > Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1604 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 5:50 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Chuck- We use off label uses all the time without the need for IRB or instructional oversight. It is called evidence based medicine and the usage of these off label uses is via clinical research. All it takes is a TAR with references of clinical research and evidence based medicine. Only people who are not providers make a bloody deal out of it. -- Off label uses Nancie, You wrote: > ... The higher doses > in the allopathic world are considered off label uses which happens ALL the > time with other medications and no one says boo.... Actually, the Code of Federal Regulations says a lot more than boo. For example, it requires that, " If physicians use a product for an indication not in the approved labeling, they have the responsibility to be well informed about the product, to base its use on firm scientific rationale and on sound medical evidence, and to maintain records of the product's use and effects. " Many hospitals and universities require IRB or other institutional oversight for off label uses. Further, if the off label use is part of a clinical study protocol or investigation, 21 CFR 312.2((1) requires submission of an IND (Investigational New Drug Application) and all the accompanying rigmarole, unless a list of requirements are met, one of which is full informed consent of the patient. I think was acting in the spirit of that law, in wanting everyone to be aware that over 3 grains of Armour was an exceptional prescription and not at all usual, as Gracia always claims. I am confident that Forest's statement that most people respond to 1-2 grains is based on real statistical records and not a wild guess or exaggeration to protect themselves, since Federal law requires them to keep and report those records. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 wrote: > > > Typo??? > No, that was carefully transcribed. However, this was before they knew about calcium, iron, soy, goitrogens, and just plain old food interference. Evidently someone really did try taking 60 mg per day with no ill effects. As the author speculated, though, there may well have been absorption issues. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 , You wrote: > > Not according to Forest Pharmaceuticals web site... Or the Merck Manual. Here are the symptoms of hyperthyroidism, whether due to Grave's or hormone overdose. Note that all of the symptoms that Gracia (and others) call adrenal, are classed as typical of hyperT: " Many common symptoms and signs of hyperthyroidism are similar to those of adrenergic excess, such as nervousness, palpitations, hyperactivity, increased sweating, heat hypersensitivity, fatigue, increased appetite, weight loss, insomnia, weakness, and frequent bowel movements (occasionally diarrhea). Hypomenorrhea may be present. Signs may include warm, moist skin; tremor; tachycardia; widened pulse pressure; atrial fibrillation; and palpitations. Elderly patients, particularly those with toxic nodular goiter, may present atypically (apathetic or masked hyperthyroidism) with symptoms more akin to depression or dementia. Most do not have exophthalmos or tremor. Atrial fibrillation, syncope, altered sensorium, heart failure, and weakness are more likely. Symptoms and signs may involve only a single organ system..... .... Thyroid storm produces abrupt florid symptoms of hyperthyroidism with one or more of the following: fever, marked weakness and muscle wasting, extreme restlessness with wide emotional swings, confusion, psychosis, coma, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and hepatomegaly with mild jaundice. The patient may present with cardiovascular collapse and shock. Thyroid storm is a life-threatening emergency requiring prompt treatment. " Here are the symptoms of hypothyroidism from the Merck. Note that many of these have also been ascribed to adrenal insufficiency. " Symptoms may include cold intolerance, constipation, forgetfulness, and _personality changes_. Modest weight gain is largely the result of fluid retention and decreased metabolism. Paresthesias of the hands and feet are common, often due to carpal-tarsal tunnel syndrome caused by deposition of proteinaceous ground substance in the ligaments around the wrist and ankle. Women with hypothyroidism may develop menorrhagia or secondary amenorrhea. The facial expression is dull; the voice is hoarse and speech is slow; facial puffiness and periorbital swelling occur due to infiltration with the mucopolysaccharides hyaluronic acid and chondroitin sulfate; eyelids droop because of decreased adrenergic drive; hair is sparse, coarse, and dry; and the skin is coarse, dry, scaly, and thick. The relaxation phase of deep tendon reflexes is slowed. Hypothermia is common. Dementia or frank psychosis (myxedema madness) may occur. In the elderly, hypothyroidism may mimic dementia or parkinsonism. Carotenemia is common, particularly notable on the palms and soles, caused by deposition of carotene in the lipid-rich epidermal layers. Deposition of proteinaceous ground substance in the tongue may produce macroglossia. A decrease in both thyroid hormone and adrenergic stimulation causes bradycardia. The heart may be enlarged, partly because of dilation but chiefly because of pericardial effusion. Pleural or abdominal effusions also may be noted. The pericardial and pleural effusions develop slowly and only rarely cause respiratory or hemodynamic distress.... " Chuck > > > > > Chuck docs do not Rx Armour properly. this system is dysfunctional so > > we cannot extrapolate a lot from it. tachycardia , nervousness, > > palpitation are adrenal symptoms. > > Gracia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Nancie, You wrote: > > We use off label uses all the time without the need for IRB or instructional > oversight. That's because those are for institutions, not private practices. I happen to serve on a committee that reviews research proposals involving human subjects with very similar restrictions. It depends on the institution and whether they hope to land federal research grants. > ...It is called evidence based medicine and the usage of these off > label uses is via clinical research. All it takes is a TAR with references > of clinical research and evidence based medicine. Only people who are not > providers make a bloody deal out of it. Yes, it is different for pay as you go private practices than for institutional ones. The TAR is to get the off-label use covered by medical insurance. Many providers will not pay for certain off label uses, especially the controversial ones. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Again it depends. My rheum at UCLA is Chief of rheumatology and she uses meds off label all the time in the treatment of sle. That is OK with UCLA. As far as insurx goes- as long as you document the hell out of the TAR [ I have written over 100 Tar's]- the insurx covers it . I have a 95% success rate. Granted it is a lot of work- but I do charge for the extra time and the patients pay that willingly. -- Re: Off label uses Nancie, You wrote: > > We use off label uses all the time without the need for IRB or instructional > oversight. That's because those are for institutions, not private practices. I happen to serve on a committee that reviews research proposals involving human subjects with very similar restrictions. It depends on the institution and whether they hope to land federal research grants. > ...It is called evidence based medicine and the usage of these off > label uses is via clinical research. All it takes is a TAR with references > of clinical research and evidence based medicine. Only people who are not > providers make a bloody deal out of it. Yes, it is different for pay as you go private practices than for institutional ones. The TAR is to get the off-label use covered by medical insurance. Many providers will not pay for certain off label uses, especially the controversial ones. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 It still seems strange to me to suggest that someone needs to take a replacement dose of anything that is twice that produced by a healthy body. About the only thing I can see is that possibly some people are only 50% efficient in utilizing T3 and/or T4. I know that T4/T3 conversion problems have been discussed; as well as binding problems [i think with T3?]. But could these or any other known condition cause T3 usage to only be 50% or so efficient? Is there a specific known illness with this effect? What other condition could make someone need twice the T3 produced by a healthy body? I guess one possibility [maybe remote] is that the possible damage of an undetermined nature from long term lack of hypothyroid treatment that Chuck and others have speculated on may cause such a condition. But I know of no credible support for such an idea. > it has to do with cell sensitvity, and with how the body uses > hormones. not being able to tolerate thyroid meds or being able to > tolerate a high dose with not much effect both indicate poor adrenal > function. I think iodine has something to do with it too. > Gracia > p.s. undertreatment is soooo common--my coworker is very undertreated > on 2 grains. > > It seems that way; but most certainly not EVERYONE. > > And then I wonder: Why would ANYONE need more than a full replacement > dose??? Why do some people get hyper symptoms on 2 or 3 grains and some > take 6 grains with no apparent negative symptoms??? > > > > > At any rate, there are at least a few percent that seem to need more > > than 3 grains. > > > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Perhaps it is not as strange when you consider when Forest wrote the word " malabsorption " in their PDF. Imagine a world where hypothyroid people do not digest as well, people that have had colon cancer and had their bowels resectioned, people that have had gastric bypass operations, people with weird stomach acid problems, people that have had stomach cancer.....the list is endless. That is why Forest wisely never uses the word....maximum. Maximum... " The greatest possible quantity or degree. " Thyroid replacement medication enters the body in a different fashion then the way our own thyroids contribute, so you cannot compare apples to oranges. Neil wrote: > > It still seems strange to me to suggest that someone needs to take a > replacement dose of anything that is twice that produced by a healthy > body. About the only thing I can see is that possibly some people are > only 50% efficient in utilizing T3 and/or T4. > > I know that T4/T3 conversion problems have been discussed; as well as > binding problems [i think with T3?]. But could these or any other known > condition cause T3 usage to only be 50% or so efficient? Is there a > specific known illness with this effect? What other condition could > make someone need twice the T3 produced by a healthy body? > > I guess one possibility [maybe remote] is that the possible damage of an > undetermined nature from long term lack of hypothyroid treatment that > Chuck and others have speculated on may cause such a condition. But I > know of no credible support for such an idea. > > > > > it has to do with cell sensitvity, and with how the body uses > > hormones. not being able to tolerate thyroid meds or being able to > > tolerate a high dose with not much effect both indicate poor adrenal > > function. I think iodine has something to do with it too. > > Gracia > > p.s. undertreatment is soooo common--my coworker is very undertreated > > on 2 grains. > > > > It seems that way; but most certainly not EVERYONE. > > > > And then I wonder: Why would ANYONE need more than a full replacement > > dose??? Why do some people get hyper symptoms on 2 or 3 grains and some > > take 6 grains with no apparent negative symptoms??? > > > > > > > > > At any rate, there are at least a few percent that seem to need more > > > than 3 grains. > > > > > > Chuck > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1607 - Release Date: 8/12/2008 7:19 AM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Chuck, the original said: " ... it no worse, tolerate up to 60 grains per day without any discernible ill effects. " I don't get the correlation of 60 GRAINS to 60 mg??? Thanks, > wrote: > > > > > > Typo??? > > > > No, that was carefully transcribed. However, this was before they knew > about calcium, iron, soy, goitrogens, and just plain old food > interference. Evidently someone really did try taking 60 mg per day with > no ill effects. As the author speculated, though, there may well have > been absorption issues. > > Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 , Sorry, the 60 mg is the typo. Someone did take 60 grains with no ill effects. Since each grain is supposed to be equivalent to 100 mcg of T4, that would effectively be 6,000 mcg of levothyroxine. Chuck You wrote: > > > Chuck, the original said: " ... it no worse, tolerate up to 60 grains per > day without any discernible ill effects. " > > I don't get the correlation of 60 GRAINS to 60 mg??? > > Thanks, > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Typo??? > > > > > > > No, that was carefully transcribed. However, this was before they knew > > about calcium, iron, soy, goitrogens, and just plain old food > > interference. Evidently someone really did try taking 60 mg per day with > > no ill effects. As the author speculated, though, there may well have > > been absorption issues. > > > > Chuck > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1608 - Release Date: 8/12/2008 4:59 PM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 60 mg or 1 grain is 38 of T4 + 9 of T3 (x4) 36 = 74 mcg of levo equivalent roughly For some reason Armour¹s site rounds it up to a 100 mcg levo tab Œsted of the .88. sue On 8/13/08 4:18 PM, " Chuck B " <gumboyaya@...> wrote: > > > > , > > Sorry, the 60 mg is the typo. Someone did take 60 grains with no ill > effects. Since each grain is supposed to be equivalent to 100 mcg of T4, > that would effectively be 6,000 mcg of levothyroxine. > > Chuck > > You wrote: >> > >> > >> > > > on > > > find out more. > > > > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Sue, You wrote: > > > 60 mg or 1 grain is 38 of T4 + 9 of T3 (x4) 36 = 74 mcg of levo equivalent > roughly > For some reason Armour¹s site rounds it up to a 100 mcg levo tab Œsted of > the .88. Armour also contains T2, T1, and some of the bound fractions. The 100 mcg equivalence is based on a test of how much TSH changes in response to controlled doses. In addition to being equivalent to 4 times the T4, T3 tends to spike in concentration which temporarily drives TSH below the equilibrium (4 times) level. That combined with the other active forms makes it appear to be much more potent than 74 mcg. And, they probably rounded up. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 True it does contain T1 and T2 so that could be it. sue On 8/13/08 5:27 PM, " Chuck B " <gumboyaya@...> wrote: > Sue, > > You wrote: >> >> >> 60 mg or 1 grain is 38 of T4 + 9 of T3 (x4) 36 = 74 mcg of levo equivalent >> roughly >> For some reason Armour¹s site rounds it up to a 100 mcg levo tab Œsted of >> the .88. > > Armour also contains T2, T1, and some of the bound fractions. The 100 > mcg equivalence is based on a test of how much TSH changes in response > to controlled doses. In addition to being equivalent to 4 times the T4, > T3 tends to spike in concentration which temporarily drives TSH below > the equilibrium (4 times) level. That combined with the other active > forms makes it appear to be much more potent than 74 mcg. > > And, they probably rounded up. > > Chuck > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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