Re: Reverse T3/dark day/Chuck

April 8, 2009

Hmmm, That's what I am afraid of. Chuck do you go along with this?

Venizia

> >

> > It is my understanding that cell walls are basically invisible to T3.

> > If that's true and your cells aren't getting enough then it's because

> > it's not in your blood. If that's not correct I hope someone will

> > advise me.

> >

> > .

> >

> > >

> > > Posted by: " venizia1948 " nelsonck@

> > > <mailto:nelsonck@?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Reverse%20T3%2Fdark%20day>

> > > venizia1948 <venizia1948>

> > >

> > > Sun Apr 5, 2009 7:20 pm (PDT)

> > >

> > > Hi Roni,

> > >

> > > I think I am losing more hair because I still have a Reverse T3

> > > problem. Because of this the thyroid meds are not getting to my cells.

> >

>

April 8, 2009

So it neutralizes Ft3 but the Ft3 does not pool in the blood. So if it is

neutralized, it is still not available for use. So this is the reason for

getting rid of too much Rt3. Am I NOW understanding this correctly. Gosh, this

is too much for my foggy brain.

Venizia

> >

> > Hmmm, That's what I am afraid of. Chuck do you go along with this?

>

> Partly. T3 and RT3 are measured by separate immunoassays. Total T3

> therefore does not involve a measure of RT3, although RT3 does block the

> receptors and effectively neutralizes FT3.

>

> Chuck

>

> > >

> > > ReverseT3(rT3) has the ability to attach to the same receptor cells

> > as freeT3 (the active component of total T3--rT3 + freeT3 = total T3).

> > If there is an excessive amount of rT3 being produced, it will interfere

> > with the body's ability for freeT3 to attach, so effectively it can

> > cause any of the same symptoms as an inadequate amount of thyroid

> > hormones to begin with...

>

April 8, 2009

venizia1948 wrote:

>

> So it neutralizes Ft3 but the Ft3 does not pool in the blood. So if it

> is neutralized, it is still not available for use. So this is the reason

> for getting rid of too much Rt3. Am I NOW understanding this correctly.

> Gosh, this is too much for my foggy brain.

RT3 is definitely real. Some of the claims about it may not be. I do not

understand what " pool in the blood means. " RT3 fills receptors for T3,

so the metabolic stimulation that FT3 would produce is stopped. If the

ratio is wrong, excess RT3 can cause hypoT symptoms, even with FT3 is in

the normal range.

The part that has been discredited, is 's claim that RT3 acts to

maintain the imbalance. Something else must be doing that.

Chuck

April 8, 2009

Do you agree with the idea of finding out the ratio of Rt3 and Ft3 and if needed

one should get rid of the extra Rt3 with T3 only? Even if the Rt3 is in the

range like mine was at 315 with the top range being 350? Thanks for your

patience.

Venizia

> >

> > So it neutralizes Ft3 but the Ft3 does not pool in the blood. So if it

> > is neutralized, it is still not available for use. So this is the reason

> > for getting rid of too much Rt3. Am I NOW understanding this correctly.

> > Gosh, this is too much for my foggy brain.

>

> RT3 is definitely real. Some of the claims about it may not be. I do not

> understand what " pool in the blood means. " RT3 fills receptors for T3,

> so the metabolic stimulation that FT3 would produce is stopped. If the

> ratio is wrong, excess RT3 can cause hypoT symptoms, even with FT3 is in

> the normal range.

>

> The part that has been discredited, is 's claim that RT3 acts to

> maintain the imbalance. Something else must be doing that.

>

> Chuck

>

April 9, 2009

venizia1948 wrote:

>

> Do you agree with the idea of finding out the ratio of Rt3 and Ft3 and

> if needed one should get rid of the extra Rt3 with T3 only? Even if the

> Rt3 is in the range like mine was at 315 with the top range being 350?

> Thanks for your patience.

Yes, since stronger RT3 not only takes away from the conversion to T3

but actively blocks additional T3, the ratio is critical.

Chuck

April 9, 2009

I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>

> Do you agree with the idea of finding out the ratio of Rt3 and Ft3 and

> if needed one should get rid of the extra Rt3 with T3 only? Even if the

> Rt3 is in the range like mine was at 315 with the top range being 350?

> Thanks for your patience.

Yes, since stronger RT3 not only takes away from the conversion to T3

but actively blocks additional T3, the ratio is critical.

Chuck

------------------------------------

April 9, 2009

Roni Molin wrote:

>

> I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

reference range and still leave you hypoT.

Chuck

April 9, 2009

I have a feeling that this might be what's going on. I'll see if

I can get this test done.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>

> I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

reference range and still leave you hypoT.

Chuck

------------------------------------

April 9, 2009

I do not understand the origin of all the Internet wisdom about rT3 and FT3.

Could you provide some reference about this ratio?

Val

> I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

reference range and still leave you hypoT.

Chuck

April 9, 2009

Hi Val!

I don't remember where I first learned about the importance of rT3 and freeT3,

but I do remember the recommended ratio is about = or > 20. Because they are

measured in different units, one has to be converted so the ratio can be

calculated using the same units. I don't remember the units, therefore, I can't

tell you the formula for the conversion either.

hope this helps some anyway...

>

> I do not understand the origin of all the Internet wisdom about rT3 and FT3.

> Could you provide some reference about this ratio?

>

> Val

>

> > I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> > that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

>

> Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

> reference range and still leave you hypoT.

>

> Chuck

>

April 9, 2009

So how do we get the conversion numbers or ratio numbers?

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: cindy.seeley <cindy.seeley@...>

Subject: Re: Reverse T3/dark day/Chuck

hypothyroidism

Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 8:57 PM

Hi Val!

I don't remember where I first learned about the importance of rT3 and freeT3,

but I do remember the recommended ratio is about = or > 20. Because they are

measured in different units, one has to be converted so the ratio can be

calculated using the same units. I don't remember the units, therefore, I can't

tell you the formula for the conversion either.

hope this helps some anyway...

>

> I do not understand the origin of all the Internet wisdom about rT3 and FT3.

> Could you provide some reference about this ratio?

>

> Val

>

> > I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> > that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

>

> Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

> reference range and still leave you hypoT.

>

> Chuck

>

April 9, 2009

By having both rT3 and freeT3 testing done from the same blood draw (doesn't

always get processed by the same lab though--some labs outsource the rT3 test to

places like Mayo). Then we convert one of the units of measurement from one of

these 2 tests to the a common unit (same unit as the other lab is measured in),

then calculate the ratio.

For example if I had 3/4 cup of water and 1/2 cup of sugar, I would convert 1/2

cup of sugar to 2/4 cup of sugar. Then I would have a ratio of 3/4 cup of water

to 1/2 cup of sugar, which would be a ratio of 3:2...that converted to a

decimal (which is what would usually be the case with the ratio of freeT3 to

rT3) would be a ratio of 1.5.

Am I understanding correctly what you are asking?

> >

> > I do not understand the origin of all the Internet wisdom about rT3 and FT3.

> > Could you provide some reference about this ratio?

> >

> > Val

> >

> > > I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> > > that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

> >

> > Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

> > reference range and still leave you hypoT.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

April 9, 2009

I understand the calculation, but wouldn't the lab people be able to give a

ratio on the lab report? They give a risk ratio for cholesterol after taking all

the numbers into consideration. I would think they'd do the same with this. I

think I'll call a lab and see what they say.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: cindy.seeley <cindy.seeley@...>

Subject: Re: Reverse T3/dark day/Chuck

hypothyroidism

Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 9:29 PM

By having both rT3 and freeT3 testing done from the same blood draw (doesn't

always get processed by the same lab though--some labs outsource the rT3 test to

places like Mayo). Then we convert one of the units of measurement from one of

these 2 tests to the a common unit (same unit as the other lab is measured in),

then calculate the ratio.

For example if I had 3/4 cup of water and 1/2 cup of sugar, I would convert 1/2

cup of sugar to 2/4 cup of sugar. Then I would have a ratio of 3/4 cup of water

to 1/2 cup of sugar, which would be a ratio of 3:2...that converted to a

decimal (which is what would usually be the case with the ratio of freeT3 to

rT3) would be a ratio of 1.5.

Am I understanding correctly what you are asking?

> >

> > I do not understand the origin of all the Internet wisdom about rT3 and FT3.

> > Could you provide some reference about this ratio?

> >

> > Val

> >

> > > I'm not sure I understand. How exactly is this done. I do understand

> > > that I need an RT3 test as well as an FT3 test. Is that right?

> >

> > Yes, but the critical indicator is the ratio. Both can be within the

> > reference range and still leave you hypoT.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

April 9, 2009

I'm on the rT3/FT3 list and have been on these thyroid lists for over 10

years.

Right now, I'm trying to understand this whole concept. Where did it come

from? Who says? I know about the ratio and about taking pure T3, but who

says?

I'm mostly quit reading these lists because so much of the information is

wrong or just plain dangerous. The little discussion between the bleeding

hearts and the libertarians caught my eye and I've enjoyed it. It is

amusing to see how people argue given their political leanings.

Val

<hypothyroidism/message/46836;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWd

lbm1nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDNDY

4MzYEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIzOTMzNjA0Mg-->

Posted by: " cindy.seeley "

Hi Val!

I don't remember where I first learned about the importance of rT3 and

freeT3, but I do remember the recommended ratio is about = or > 20. Because

they are measured in different units, one has to be converted so the ratio

can be calculated using the same units. I don't remember the units,

therefore, I can't tell you the formula for the conversion either.

hope this helps some anyway...

April 10, 2009

Then do you feel that the cause of the bad ratio is adrenal or ferritin levels

being off OR can this be that I am just taking too much Armour which is making

my Ft4 too high which in turn is creating the Rt3 ratio at 11 when it should be

20 or higher?

Venizia

> >

> > Do you agree with the idea of finding out the ratio of Rt3 and Ft3 and

> > if needed one should get rid of the extra Rt3 with T3 only? Even if the

> > Rt3 is in the range like mine was at 315 with the top range being 350?

> > Thanks for your patience.

>

> Yes, since stronger RT3 not only takes away from the conversion to T3

> but actively blocks additional T3, the ratio is critical.

>

> Chuck

>

April 10, 2009

Hi Venizia!

Is your freeT4 at the high end of the range or actually over range? What is

your freeT3? I get the impression that it is lower in range? I have been

looking for information, or other experiences of this sort. My freeT4 was below

range with my freeT3 just barely at the bottom of the range and my ferritin was

extremely low...my rT3 wasn't tested (I asked for it and the doctor agreed, so

I'm not sure if the lab just doesn't do it or if she forgot to order it--there

were tons of tests ordered at the time.) She increased my Armour...also

prescribed folic acid and told me to get back on B12 (1000 mcg each--I have

pernicious anemia) and get back on my iron (ferrous gluconate). I also have

antibodies, apparently greater than the labs capability to count as the results

gave me a > 500 with no range.

I have seen significant improvement in my symptoms and am finally able to wean

off some of my pain meds and no longer need one of my inhalers (all of this also

under my doctor's supervision). Currently, I'm working on getting my ferritin

level up to the range of 70-90. Taking 27 mg and sometimes 54 mg of ferrous

gluconate daily, I have been able to increase my ferritin level from 19 to 45 in

about 10 weeks. Because of this improvement, I decided to increase my ferrous

gluconate to 54 mg daily in the hope that I can get my ferritin level up more

rapidly. Without the information of the freeT3:rT3 ratio, I have no idea what

is happening there...I plan to ask for the rT3 with the freeT3 (as well as

ferritin again) at my next appointment, but that isn't until September.

Maybe we can stay in touch with each other with what our findings are regarding

this situation...this particular combination doesn't appear to be very common as

I've been watching for it on several boards for nearly 2 months now. Oh, I

forgot to mention, my labs showed high cortisol (that seems to be improving

since the Armour increase, which makes sense since info I've read indicates that

cortisol is used in getting the T3 into the cells--I'm reasonably sure I am

getting T3 into my cells because of the improvement in my symptoms.) Currently,

I'm operating under the hope that as my ferritin increases, I will have better

conversion from T4 to T3 since some of the information I've read regarding this

indicates ferritin is used in the conversion process.

Best wishes!

>

> Then do you feel that the cause of the bad ratio is adrenal or ferritin levels

being off OR can this be that I am just taking too much Armour which is making

my Ft4 too high which in turn is creating the Rt3 ratio at 11 when it should be

20 or higher?

>

> Venizia

April 10, 2009

I'm sure they could, but I've never heard or read of any that do. Maybe if

people start asking (as you suggested) labs will start doing this. However,

this isn't going to work for those of us whose labs don't run the rT3 test so it

is outsourced to places like Mayo (this is what our labs do too). If nothing

else, the lab may make a notation on your labs to do this, or you could ask your

doctor to provide you with the ratio (he/she shouldn't have any problem with

this)...good luck!

>

> I understand the calculation, but wouldn't the lab people be able to give a

ratio on the lab report? They give a risk ratio for cholesterol after taking all

the numbers into consideration. I would think they'd do the same with this. I

think I'll call a lab and see what they say.

>

> Roni

April 10, 2009

I agree some of the information is wrong, which is why I always research the

stuff I read on these lists. I've also benefited from many resources (studies,

etc.) that would have been very time consuming for me to find independently. My

downside is that many of those resources are bookmarked or saved on my desktop,

which I rarely use now that my husband and kids gave me a laptop for Christmas.

I'm slowly establishing a collection of references on this laptop, but many of

them are new ones that I hadn't already seen.

Regarding the political discussions, I've found them extremely

stimulating...they actually made me think and even helped me understand, to some

extent, where the opposing view is coming from although from my own experience,

I find much of what they believe to be sadly misinformed (I've seen the

'bleeding hearts' of the majority of the 'needy' from behind the scenes when the

'social providers' weren't around to hear what most of them REALLY think--many

of them can really put on a great act!)... For me though, the best part of this

discussion was that yesterday, I realized that I'm finally getting my brain back

(my description for the effects of inadequate thyroid treatment was that I'd

'lost my brain')...This was such a wonderful discovery for me that I can't even

begin to tell you how much it meant!!!

>

> I'm on the rT3/FT3 list and have been on these thyroid lists for over 10

> years.

>

> Right now, I'm trying to understand this whole concept. Where did it come

> from? Who says? I know about the ratio and about taking pure T3, but who

> says?

>

> I'm mostly quit reading these lists because so much of the information is

> wrong or just plain dangerous. The little discussion between the bleeding

> hearts and the libertarians caught my eye and I've enjoyed it. It is

> amusing to see how people argue given their political leanings.

>

> Val

>

> <hypothyroidism/message/46836;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWd

> lbm1nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDNDY

> 4MzYEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIzOTMzNjA0Mg-->

>

> Posted by: " cindy.seeley "

>

> Hi Val!

> I don't remember where I first learned about the importance of rT3 and

> freeT3, but I do remember the recommended ratio is about = or > 20. Because

> they are measured in different units, one has to be converted so the ratio

> can be calculated using the same units. I don't remember the units,

> therefore, I can't tell you the formula for the conversion either.

> hope this helps some anyway...

>

April 10, 2009

You don't have to explain. I have had that too. One of the things that made a

difference was when I stopped taking zyrteck and anyn other antihistamine,

including nasal sprays. The difference was apparent in a day or two.

I have fibromyalgia too, and I have lots of pain, but I can't take most

medications because of allergy or sensititvity, so I mostly have to just suffer

through. This winter has been horrendous, but I'm a bit better now. I dread what

will happen next winter as this one was

so bad.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: cindy.seeley <cindy.seeley@...>

Subject: Re: Reverse T3/dark day/Chuck

hypothyroidism

Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 10:38 AM