Re: Re: back to square one/

[Guest guest]

Thanks -- I appreciate the help!! Amy

________________________________

From: <kennio@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:34:41 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

Absolutely. NO calcium if you are hypo and having panic or anxiety. Get the

mag deficiency under control. NO magnesium oxide either...not absorbable. The

best thing for emergency anxiety I found was the epsom salts (magnesium

sulphate) baths. Magnesium sulphate is used stop a woman from having

contractions during child birth... it will certain calm you down quickly.

____________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Thank u!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: back to square one/

Ok, I checked and this B12 sublingual is cyanocobalamin - a problem? right? IF

I have an absorption issue...not 100% sure but I suspect.

Venizia

-- In hypothyroidism, " venizia1948 " <nelsonck@.. .> wrote:

>

> hmmm, I will check on the B12 and Methylcobalamin. If it is not stated on the

bottle, how will I know? It's amazing how much we learn here and how much the

doctors DO NOT tell us. I am so frustrated.

>

> Thanks

> Venizia

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing. The test is more advanced and tests

40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago. If you believe that you

have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> >

> > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, what bran of mag glycinate has 400 mg per pill?

Pamela

From: <kennio@...>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 2:27 PM

I would take 'Natural Calm' before bed time. It can really make you

tired. I took half a 400mg glycinate pill like 4 times a day or more when the

symptoms were really bad. Getting spikes of mag with epsom salt baths are great

anytime.

It's totally physiological ... nothing psychological about it... although

it feels like it.

You might have to start slow because you may get diarrhea at first; build the

dose. BTW, I only supplement it now when I am under stress, hypo, etc. I can

spot the signs.

________________________________

From: " sunlend@... " <sunlend@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:12:50 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

Oh my god that happened to me too. What is the best time to take mag?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: Re: back to square one/

I take very low dose cytomel only when I feel I need it. When I take it on a

regular basis I look sickly, bloated and pale.

Armour stresses my adrenal system from what I can tell. Everyone says to take

even another hormone called cortef/cortisol to be able to tolerate it. That is

not something I want to do. If my adrenals are in such poor shape at my age I

want to know why... NOT cover it up. I have virtually no stress in my life so I

am baffled.

In the mean time I am looking for reasons for the health issues by testing and

curing nutritional deficiencies. Not as easy as it sounds. It takes months to

cure certain deficiencies. I did also find a parasite in my gut and am working

to rid myself of it. Next week I am going to a doctor who specializes in

epigenetics and we are going to do some DNA testing and try gene silencing to

mute the hashimoto's gene that is causing all of this.

____________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Ooops, 400mg per 2 pills.

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1549

________________________________

From: ARC <southallp@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:25:20 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

, what bran of mag glycinate has 400 mg per pill?

Pamela

From: <kennio (DOT) com>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 2:27 PM

I would take 'Natural Calm' before bed time. It can really make you

tired. I took half a 400mg glycinate pill like 4 times a day or more when the

symptoms were really bad. Getting spikes of mag with epsom salt baths are great

anytime.

It's totally physiological ... nothing psychological about it... although

it feels like it.

You might have to start slow because you may get diarrhea at first; build the

dose. BTW, I only supplement it now when I am under stress, hypo, etc. I can

spot the signs.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: " sunlend (DOT) com " <sunlend (DOT) com>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:12:50 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

Oh my god that happened to me too. What is the best time to take mag?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: Re: back to square one/

I take very low dose cytomel only when I feel I need it. When I take it on a

regular basis I look sickly, bloated and pale.

Armour stresses my adrenal system from what I can tell. Everyone says to take

even another hormone called cortef/cortisol to be able to tolerate it. That is

not something I want to do. If my adrenals are in such poor shape at my age I

want to know why... NOT cover it up. I have virtually no stress in my life so I

am baffled.

In the mean time I am looking for reasons for the health issues by testing and

curing nutritional deficiencies. Not as easy as it sounds. It takes months to

cure certain deficiencies. I did also find a parasite in my gut and am working

to rid myself of it. Next week I am going to a doctor who specializes in

epigenetics and we are going to do some DNA testing and try gene silencing to

mute the hashimoto's gene that is causing all of this.

____________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have had similar experiences for years! I was recently told to take

magnesium and calcium for high blood pressure, and noticed these type of

symptoms got partially better also.

I read that if I am deficient in magnesium, then calcium can't be absorbed

properly either, so that is low, and that also means potassium is low, and

therefore all the electrolytes are out of balance.

With all this, I am trying to figure out what I need to take. According to

that site, I got symptoms of severe mag deficiency, and other sites show low

calcium. How much of each can be taken at a time for best absorption and

less side effects? Are calcium and potassium needed? It seems the more I

take of these, the more off balance I feel and the more I need. Is that a

deficiency using it up, or just creating an imbalance?

Re: Re: back to square one/

My racing thoughts and anxiety were due to magnesium deficiency. Magnesium

is needed to buffer adrenaline.. . without that buffer you have no natural

way to calm down. I would almost have a heart attack when I would be doing

something as simple as waiting last minute to bid on an item on EBAY. It

was crazy.

http://george- eby-research. com/html/ depression- anxiety.html

[Guest guest]

That's the one I take.  I buy mine from vitacost.com to avoid the tax that

Vitamin Shoppe chages me (I live in CA).

From: <kennio@...>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 3:36 PM

Ooops, 400mg per 2 pills.

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1549

[Guest guest]

He said that form is the one you should have, so you're all right.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

>

> hmmm,  I will check on the B12 and Methylcobalamin. If it is not stated on the

bottle, how will I know?  It's amazing how much we learn here and how much the

doctors DO NOT tell us.  I am so frustrated.

>

> Thanks

> Venizia

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Yes, sciona...it's mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and tests

40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that you

have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> >

> > http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/aug98-report1.html

> >

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Oops! Sorry, I read it wrong. That's why I hate taking pain pills. I'm only

taking 1/2 of a Soma for really intolerable fibromyalgia pain and it's already

making me make mistakes. I

just started this a couple of days ago. I can't wait till it gets a bit warmer,

and the pain

subsides. Then I can stop these darn pills.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@...>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:34 PM

But isn't cyanocobalamin different from methylcobalamin?

Venizia

> > >

> > > Yes, sciona...it's mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > >

> > > http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/aug98-report1.html

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes it is. I said you have the WRONG type of B12 if you have a problem

absorbing B12. METHYLcobalamin is what you need.

________________________________

From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:34:00 PM

Subject: Re: back to square one/

But isn't cyanocobalamin different from methylcobalamin?

Venizia

> > >

> > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing. The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago. If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > >

> > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wish there was some kind of vitamin or mineral that would stop this pain. Then

I would never have to take the pain pills again. Actually most of the time I

don't, but for some reason this last couple of months has been the worst since I

was dx'd which was in

1998. I belong to an internet group with this and most of them are saying the

same thing.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@...>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni.  My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain.  She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it's mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/aug98-report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Some of this information might be useful to you, Roni.

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/magnesium.html

________________________________

From: Roni Molin <matchermaam@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:06:48 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

I wish there was some kind of vitamin or mineral that would stop this pain. Then

I would never have to take the pain pills again. Actually most of the time I

don't, but for some reason this last couple of months has been the worst since I

was dx'd which was in

1998. I belong to an internet group with this and most of them are saying the

same thing.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsoncksbcglobal (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni. My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain. She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing. The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago. If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How much magnesium do you take, ?

From: <kennio@...>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 5:16 PM

Some of this information might be useful to you, Roni.

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/magnesium.html

[Guest guest]

Depends on how much stress I'm under now. I had elective surgery recently and

found I needed to get 800-1200 mgs a day to get through it and recover. I can

spot low mag easily in myself now. I'll take 'Natural calm' which is 650mg of

magnesium citrate a couple times a week before bed time and take 400 mg of

glycinate a few times a week now. Occasional epsom salt baths. At least 2 or 3

time a year I get an IV of 2500mg of magnesium sulphate. The good news is that

I don't need chiropractor adjustments anymore after years of getting them.

Ironically it was my chiropractor who first handed me a bottle of magnesium

glycinate a few years ago and said " Sounds like you may magnesium deficient " !

I was in Paris last year and magnesium is just as popular there as vitamin C is

here. Everyone takes it. You should see the variety of mag there... fizzy

tabs, powders, pills, capsules... big displays. I asked the 20 something year

old cashier at the health store why he took it and he said " Stress, of course "

I said " In America... no one knows anything about magnesium... let alone that

it's good for stress " and he said " But of course... it's the US! " . Not sure

what he meant by that but it's true magnesium is just totally overlooked here in

the US. Reliance on drugs?? I don't know.

________________________________

From: ARC <southallp@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:51:51 PM

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

How much magnesium do you take, ?

From: <kennio (DOT) com>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 5:16 PM

Some of this information might be useful to you, Roni.

http://web.mit. edu/london/ www/magnesium. html

[Guest guest]

Thank

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsoncksbcglobal (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni.  My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain.  She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsoncksbcglobal (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni.  My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain.  She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you for

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsoncksbcglobal (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni.  My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain.  She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the information. I've saved it. I have been supplementing with

magnesium for almost two years now, and it has helped stop my afib. Not

so with the fibromyalgia though. This has been a particularly bad winter for

fibros all over the country for some reason. I personally think it has something

to do with pollution.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsoncksbcglobal (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni.  My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain.  She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it' s mail order testing.  The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago.  If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef. org/magazine/ mag98/aug98- report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

http://www.firbromyalgiarecovery.com

Not a problem Roni. My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain. She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

---

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09

20:42:00

[Guest guest]

What is the special mattress that she sleeps on?

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: Gracia <circe@...>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 7:30 AM

  http://www.firbromyalgiarecovery.com

  Not a problem Roni. My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain. She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

  Venizia

  ---

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

  Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09

20:42:00

[Guest guest]

I will find out for you.  Will post tomorrow ( Fri.)

Venizia

From: Gracia <circefairpoint (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 7:30 AM

  http://www.firbromy algiarecovery. com

  Not a problem Roni. My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain. She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

  Venizia

  ---

 

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  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

  Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09

20:42:00

[Guest guest]

that's not how it works. in order to take enough Armour you will need lots

of adrenal support.

iodine/Armour/cortef are the ones that work.

Gracia

Venezia -- I was taking Dr. 's adrenal rebuilder. Took it for about 8

months and although it made me feel really ramped up (in an unpleasant way) it

apparently helped. I also took a lot of pantothenic acid, Ester C, zinc,

selenium, Bcomplex, and got a LOT of rest. Somehow, it all seemed to work

because my adrenals seem ok now according to the labs. I wish that translated

into me feeling good -- it doesn't -- but at least the adrenals don't seem to be

the problem anymore. Amy

________________________________

From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:17:23 PM

Subject: Re: back to square one/

Amy,

I may have asked you this in the past but what supplements are you taking for

your adrenals?

Venizia

[Guest guest]

cortef 5mg 4X a day gave me my life back. then I could take enough Armour

(240mg), but I also take high doses of sex hormones.

Gracia

you and I are on the same page. I did the 24 hr saliva test and I was on

HC for about 7 weeks. Felt awful the whole time I was on it. I also do not feel

I am under stress so I would also like to take a different route to find out

what it going on. I am currently seeing a naturopath and I have to say she has

helped me more than the 7 other doctors I have seen in the past. I wish you

continued success on your road to better health.

Venizia

> >

> > I can feel cytomel in minutes. It dissipates in hours. Theoretically

Armour could be felt in under 20 minutes because of the T3. Armour however makes

me feel like hell.

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > -- In what way does it make you feel like hell? It does that to me

too -- at any dose -- but I figured it was the T3 that was making me feel bad. I

guess that's not it if you feel ok on cytomel. Amy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

your adrenals need support just like your thyroid gland does. 5mg 4X a day is

no big deal, except for becoming healthy again. OMG good luck with the genetics

doc. I don't think he will know that iodine affects genetic expression.

Gracia

I take very low dose cytomel only when I feel I need it. When I take it on a

regular basis I look sickly, bloated and pale.

Armour stresses my adrenal system from what I can tell. Everyone says to take

even another hormone called cortef/cortisol to be able to tolerate it. That is

not something I want to do. If my adrenals are in such poor shape at my age I

want to know why... NOT cover it up. I have virtually no stress in my life so I

am baffled.

In the mean time I am looking for reasons for the health issues by testing and

curing nutritional deficiencies. Not as easy as it sounds. It takes months to

cure certain deficiencies. I did also find a parasite in my gut and am working

to rid myself of it. Next week I am going to a doctor who specializes in

epigenetics and we are going to do some DNA testing and try gene silencing to

mute the hashimoto's gene that is causing all of this.

________________________________

From: amygreen53 <amygreen53@...>

hypothyroidism

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:58:10 AM

Subject: Re: back to square one/

>

> I can feel cytomel in minutes. It dissipates in hours. Theoretically Armour

could be felt in under 20 minutes because of the T3. Armour however makes me

feel like hell.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> -- In what way does it make you feel like hell? It does that to me too

-- at any dose -- but I figured it was the T3 that was making me feel bad. I

guess that's not it if you feel ok on cytomel. Amy

[Guest guest]

you need a med with T3 in it--maybe your doc doesn't know aobut those?

Gracia

Hi Amy and . I am two weeks into Levothyroxine after crashing completely

and ending up at the er with 38 tsh levels high creatine and high iodine. My

body feels almost back to normal - no cramping - no pain. However, mentally I'm

still feeling not myself very weird with racing thoughts etc. Does anyone else

get this?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09

20:42:00

[Guest guest]

enough Armoru (not one grain), enough Iodine, cortef.

gracia

http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com

I wish there was some kind of vitamin or mineral that would stop this pain.

Then I would never have to take the pain pills again. Actually most of the time

I don't, but for some reason this last couple of months has been the worst since

I was dx'd which was in

1998. I belong to an internet group with this and most of them are saying the

same thing.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@...>

Subject: Re: back to square one/

hypothyroidism

Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 4:47 PM

Not a problem Roni. My sister has fibromyalgia so I somewhat understand your

pain. I have been with her when she starts crying she is in so much pain. She

sleeps on a special mattress to help with it at night which she says really

helps.

Venizia

> > > >

> > > > Yes, sciona...it's mail order testing. The test is more advanced and

tests 40 SNP's now then when I took it several years ago. If you believe that

you have a genetic B12 problem then you have to make sure your sublingual is the

methylcobalamin version or you'll not absorb it under your tongue either.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/aug98-report1.html

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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> >

> >