Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Why then would they sell Mag/Calcium in one tablet? Venizia -- In hypothyroidism , <kennio@...> wrote: > > Magnesium and calcium compete for absorption. So if you are trying to restore mag levels it would not be a good idea. > > > > ________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 -- Good labs were a TSH typically of .1 (sometimes as low as .03) with the FT4 halfway up the range and the FT3 about a third of the way up the range. I know that many Armour enthusiasts would say that those are horrible labs because my FT3 is not out the top of the chart. Even then my legs (and muscles in general) were weak (not all the time...I have some decent days which is what is so confusing) and I always felt quite agitated with a lot of hyper symptoms but a temp a full degree below normal at best. Is ZMA something that GNC would sell or is it more specialized than that? My son keeps telling me I need to take creatine -- something he takes when he works out -- and I've also read about D-ribose, both of which are supposed to deal with cellular energy and ATP. When you say your muscles felt like mush -- like they wouldn't hold you up, or what? Mine are weak and then get real shaky -- cramp really easily too. I was in a store today for 20 minutes and it was TOO much. By the time I was checking out, my muscles were shaky and I felt pretty bad all over -- was having to hang on to the counter -- the only way I can cope then is to keep moving -- even just keep shifting my weight because if I try to just stand still at this point, it doesn't work. Could that be magnesium???? There's a book out on transdermal uses of magnesium and the guy who wrote it says he can rub mag oil into cramped up muscles and they let go. I've tried doing one leg and not the other and I can never tell a difference -- I don't know what to make of that. What do you think? I really do appreciate your help!!!! Amy ________________________________ From: <kennio@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:52:21 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? First I think we need to know what you and your doctor considered " good labs " . I personally am so horribly hypothyroid at a TSH 2.5 that I can't think straight; constipated, hair loss, the works. Magnesium deficiency made my muscles like mush. I was in the middle of lifting weight over my head when this all started and I just lost all power in my right arm and bonked myself with one of the weights. There is actually is a very popular patented bodybuilding supplement called ZMA. It is nothing but magnesium, zinc and b6... it sells for $30 a bottle. I don't suggest buying it. I think that those that ARE magnesium deficient that take it get seemingly miraculous results and their fanaticism about the product drives the craze for the product in others that maybe won't see the same results. I wouldn't underestimate what magnesium deficiency can do to your body. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ ZMA_(supplement) ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Amy Green <amygreen53 (DOT) com> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:59:23 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses. Or the references to bone density and liver enzymes. I think that may have been someone else. I just couldn't manage Armour -- it made me feel horribly hyper even when my labs were showing hypo and when my labs were good I also felt horribly hyper. The more I was on, the worse I felt and the less I was on, the better I felt. My main problem is really weak, wobbly muscles and a totally agitated body feeling (not emotional feeling). They get worse the more Armour I'm on. So I weaned myself off Armour in the last few months, and felt better and better -- I've been taking only 15mg of Armour. However, my labs tanked, so I can't just not take thyroid meds. (Although I'm really tempted.) The result (possibly) of my lowering my Armour was a swollen thyroid that sometimes makes it hard to swallow and feels bad. So, I started Levothyroxine this week and at least my temps have come up. When I was on ~75mg of Armour, my daily temps were never above 97.7. even though my labs were good. That doesn't make sense!!! After 3 days on Levo. (only 25mcg.) my temps are around 98.2. That's an improvement there and my legs muscles at first seemed better, but now it's back to the same old.. I give up trying to figure this out. My adrenals are ok (checked out by 24 hr saliva test) and my ferritin was in range, but low, so I'm taking iron and it's coming up. (That makes me nervous because I'm post meno and my hemoglobin is 14.7 and I sure don't want to end up with too much iron, but on some forums they say you need ferrritin to be around 90 for your body to be able to manage thyroid meds and mine's only around 40 at the moment -- and I'm desperate enough to believe just about anything.) I have good days (not normal though) and weak creepy days. I've been checked by a rheumatologist and a neurologist and apparently they think those systems check out. I am quite sure I'm low on magnesium, but it's hard to supplement that too heavily unless I want to live in the bathroom : ) And I can't imagine that just mag deficiency could make my muscles so weak and wobbly. So, I'm discouraged and stumped. I'm really really sensitive to thyroid meds (either one) -- I can FEEL it kick in and it's not a nice feeling. I wish this would all just go away! Sigh. Any ideas? I would love any input!!! Amy ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Chuck B <gumboyayacox (DOT) net> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:21:40 AM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, My concern was the imbalance between doses. Is it possible you were doing something with the Armour to reduce absorption, such as food, soy, tea, calcium, or iron supplements? It would make more sense, if you had hyper symptoms with the Armour, since 25 mcg of T4 is essentially nothing. That seemed to be what you were suggesting with bone density and liver enzymes, right? Chuck > > > Chuck -- I tried it every way -- swallowed, sublingualed, all at once, > divided into several doses etc. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 My muscles would not pump up with exercise. I had untoned looking muscle that appeared flabby. Magnesium deficiency with me hit the small muscle groups the hardest... losing strength in my abdominals, neck, ankles. Spraining my ankles easily and needing chiropractic adjustments often. The larger muscle groups lost endurance and tone. ZMA is licensed to many companies and appears in several products at GNC. You would get the same benefit from magnesium glycinate or a product like 'Natural Calm'. You can always buy the zinc and b6 if you need it. Magnesium is necessary for ATP synthesis. You have thyroid disease... I would start with magnesium. Hypothyroidism causes cellular loss of magnesium and derangement of minerals in general. " The erythrocyte (RBC) zinc and calcium concentrations were found to be increased, whereas magnesium concentration decreased. " http://www.springerlink.com/content/b857332n53140k15/ You can take the guess work out of this and get your erythrocyte RBC magnesium tested. Online or at your doctor... insurance will pay for it. Serum testing is not accurate... Intercellular RBC analysis is arguable the gold standard and is the test you want. http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0 & page_id=893 & query=magnesiu\ m%20rbc & hiword=MAGNESIA%20MAGNESIUMBASED%20MAGNESIUMON%20MAGNESIUMS%20magnesium%\ 20rbc%20 You can get a comprehensive RBC reliable test for ALL minerals from Doctors Data (and other labs). Again, serum testing will give you your status on that DAY. RBC will give you a 4 month average. Red blood cell elements. http://doctorsdata.com/test_info.asp?id=7 From: Amy Green <amygreen53@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:00:03 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? -- Good labs were a TSH typically of .1 (sometimes as low as .03) with the FT4 halfway up the range and the FT3 about a third of the way up the range. I know that many Armour enthusiasts would say that those are horrible labs because my FT3 is not out the top of the chart. Even then my legs (and muscles in general) were weak (not all the time...I have some decent days which is what is so confusing) and I always felt quite agitated with a lot of hyper symptoms but a temp a full degree below normal at best. Is ZMA something that GNC would sell or is it more specialized than that? My son keeps telling me I need to take creatine -- something he takes when he works out -- and I've also read about D-ribose, both of which are supposed to deal with cellular energy and ATP. When you say your muscles felt like mush -- like they wouldn't hold you up, or what? Mine are weak and then get real shaky -- cramp really easily too. I was in a store today for 20 minutes and it was TOO much. By the time I was checking out, my muscles were shaky and I felt pretty bad all over -- was having to hang on to the counter -- the only way I can cope then is to keep moving -- even just keep shifting my weight because if I try to just stand still at this point, it doesn't work. Could that be magnesium??? ? There's a book out on transdermal uses of magnesium and the guy who wrote it says he can rub mag oil into cramped up muscles and they let go. I've tried doing one leg and not the other and I can never tell a difference -- I don't know what to make of that. What do you think? I really do appreciate your help!!!! Amy ____________ _________ _________ __ From: <kennio (DOT) com> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:52:21 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? First I think we need to know what you and your doctor considered " good labs " . I personally am so horribly hypothyroid at a TSH 2.5 that I can't think straight; constipated, hair loss, the works. Magnesium deficiency made my muscles like mush. I was in the middle of lifting weight over my head when this all started and I just lost all power in my right arm and bonked myself with one of the weights. There is actually is a very popular patented bodybuilding supplement called ZMA. It is nothing but magnesium, zinc and b6... it sells for $30 a bottle. I don't suggest buying it. I think that those that ARE magnesium deficient that take it get seemingly miraculous results and their fanaticism about the product drives the craze for the product in others that maybe won't see the same results. I wouldn't underestimate what magnesium deficiency can do to your body. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ ZMA_(supplement) ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Amy Green <amygreen53@ . com> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:59:23 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses. Or the references to bone density and liver enzymes. I think that may have been someone else. I just couldn't manage Armour -- it made me feel horribly hyper even when my labs were showing hypo and when my labs were good I also felt horribly hyper. The more I was on, the worse I felt and the less I was on, the better I felt. My main problem is really weak, wobbly muscles and a totally agitated body feeling (not emotional feeling). They get worse the more Armour I'm on. So I weaned myself off Armour in the last few months, and felt better and better -- I've been taking only 15mg of Armour. However, my labs tanked, so I can't just not take thyroid meds. (Although I'm really tempted.) The result (possibly) of my lowering my Armour was a swollen thyroid that sometimes makes it hard to swallow and feels bad. So, I started Levothyroxine this week and at least my temps have come up. When I was on ~75mg of Armour, my daily temps were never above 97.7. even though my labs were good. That doesn't make sense!!! After 3 days on Levo. (only 25mcg.) my temps are around 98.2. That's an improvement there and my legs muscles at first seemed better, but now it's back to the same old.. I give up trying to figure this out. My adrenals are ok (checked out by 24 hr saliva test) and my ferritin was in range, but low, so I'm taking iron and it's coming up. (That makes me nervous because I'm post meno and my hemoglobin is 14.7 and I sure don't want to end up with too much iron, but on some forums they say you need ferrritin to be around 90 for your body to be able to manage thyroid meds and mine's only around 40 at the moment -- and I'm desperate enough to believe just about anything.) I have good days (not normal though) and weak creepy days. I've been checked by a rheumatologist and a neurologist and apparently they think those systems check out. I am quite sure I'm low on magnesium, but it's hard to supplement that too heavily unless I want to live in the bathroom : ) And I can't imagine that just mag deficiency could make my muscles so weak and wobbly. So, I'm discouraged and stumped. I'm really really sensitive to thyroid meds (either one) -- I can FEEL it kick in and it's not a nice feeling. I wish this would all just go away! Sigh. Any ideas? I would love any input!!! Amy ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Chuck B <gumboyayacox (DOT) net> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:21:40 AM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, My concern was the imbalance between doses. Is it possible you were doing something with the Armour to reduce absorption, such as food, soy, tea, calcium, or iron supplements? It would make more sense, if you had hyper symptoms with the Armour, since 25 mcg of T4 is essentially nothing. That seemed to be what you were suggesting with bone density and liver enzymes, right? Chuck > > > Chuck -- I tried it every way -- swallowed, sublingualed, all at once, > divided into several doses etc. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 There's one person on this list who has posted more than once that he/she has never met a person who takes $inthroid who is do well on it. I'm 68 and that's all I take. I have been giving some thought to trying Armour to see if it would negate my need for Lipitor. I'm a little hesitant to make changes when everything is going well. Luck, Cross posted to HypothyroidManagement .. .. > > Posted by: " Amy Green " amygreen53@... > <mailto:amygreen53@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > amygreen53 <amygreen53> > > > Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:53 am (PDT) > > You're so right Venezia. Believe me, this is the only forum where I > feel comfortable posting that I actually seem to be having some > success with something other than Armour. Hopefully, I'll keep feeling > better and better on this. It's funny -- my brother has been on > synthroid for years -- is 58 -- has no other health problems, climbs > mountains and bikes all over the country -- while I was home, feeling > horrible, struggling to manage with Armour and yet telling him that > Armour was the only way to go. . : ) Amy > > ____________ > ____________________ > From: venizia1948 <nelsonck@... > <mailto:nelsonck%40sbcglobal.net>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 7:38:23 AM > Subject: Re: progress maybe? > > Amy, > > This just proves that we are all individuals who have to do what is > right for us. We can all state what works for us but should not TELL > someone this is what they SHOULD do. This is a great forum to help > each other but there is a fine line here. > > So glad this is working for you but as said make sure you get > your labs done about every 6 weeks or you may find you are falling > back down to where you were. > > Good luck to you, > Venizia > > > > > > I just started taking generic synthroid 3 days ago after a year of > trying to tolerate Armour. Even at 90mg of Armour, with decent looking > labs, I felt awful and my daily temps never could climb above 97.7 at > best. Already, at a only 25mcg of synthroid, my temps are about 98.1. > I'm also not having the horrible crawling muscle feelings that I've > put up with for so long. What do you guys make of that??? > > > > Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I'm not and I'm not sure, but I'd guess around 1/2 grain. Typically not nearly enough. Best, Cross posted to HypothyroidManagement .. .. > > Posted by: " Amy Green " amygreen53@... > <mailto:amygreen53@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > amygreen53 <amygreen53> > > > Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:17 am (PDT) > > -- so if I'm taking 25 mcg of synthroid (levothyroxine actually) > what would that be equivalent to in Armour? Thanks! Amy > > ____________ > ____________________ > From: <kennio@... <mailto:kennio%40>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 1:32:46 AM > Subject: Re: progress maybe? > > Well 1 1/2 grain of armour converts on the notoriously inaccurate > conversion chart to about 75 mcg of synthroid. I wouldn't stay at too > low of a dose for too long of synthroid. You have your T4 and T3 up... > no reason to let it fall...unless you were at a crazy low TSH and > crazy high T3 AND weren't feeling well. > > I jumped off 3 grains of armour and went directly to 150mcg levoxyl > without a dip or going hypo. My T3 fell but not out of range. My TSH > stayed below 1. Glad you're feeling better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 You'll be excommunicated for sure! [ggg] Cross posted to HypothyroidManagement .. .. > > Posted by: " sunlend@... " sunlend@... > <mailto:sunlend@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > sunlend <sunlend> > > > Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:18 am (PDT) > > Wow sounds like what happened to me. Three weeks on levothyroxine and > I almost feel like new!!! > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > Re: Re: progress maybe? > > > You're so right Venezia. Believe me, this is the only forum where I > feel comfortable posting that I actually seem to be having some > success with something other than Armour. Hopefully, I'll keep feeling > better and better on this. It's funny -- my brother has been on > synthroid for years -- is 58 -- has no other health problems, climbs > mountains and bikes all over the country -- while I was home, feeling > horrible, struggling to manage with Armour and yet telling him that > Armour was the only way to go. . : ) Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 IOW while there are no doubt a number of decent, honest and intelligent people there willing to help there are also some number of crackpot " true believers " who will not tolerate any opinion contrary to their own; and will not look at any evidence of same. You'll find similar on a lot of " health " sites on the internet. I had a somewhat similar experience with a group in the UK. Someone asked about a supplement that is made from dessicated thyroid glands but which contains no more than a possible trace of thyroid hormones. I replied that basically it was very expensive hamburger; which happens to be factual. I was unaware that an exalted figure to some of the members of that list extensively recommends the " expensive hamburger " . Needless to say that as a blasphemer against the holy writ of said saint things went downhill from there and I was soon toast. One person commented to me off list that " ...a number of sacred cows were contentedly sleeping... " there before I came along! [ggg] Regards, Cross posted to HypothyroidManagement .. .. > > Posted by: " " kennio@... > <mailto:kennio@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > Kennio <Kennio> > > > Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:18 am (PDT) > > I went onto the forum associated with " StopTheThyroidMadn > ess.com " when I was taking Armour looking for help because of feeling > ill and then the high liver enzymes starting. Here's how it went. > > me: Anyone else having high liver enzymes after starting Armour. I'm > on 3 grains. > > her: How dare you fear monger here and repeat the terrible rumors that > doctors are telling you to believe. ARMOUR saved my life and I would > will defend such a wonderful company as forest pharmaceuticals with > all my might. They are ethical and fight for us!! (or something like that) > > me: Ummm, forest pharmaceuticals also makes Lexapro. Google " lawsuit > lexapro " . > > The whole thread disappeared in less than 10 minutes and I was kicked > off the board without comment... I kid you not! Never got around to > mentioning that I was pissing out my whole skeleton as my calcium was > leached from my bones (hadn't found out yet). > > I am NOT suggesting that Armour caused all these problems. I now know > that any hyperthyroid state can cause these problems regardless of > what hormone replacement is used AND that hyperthyroidism can be a > subtle condition with real consequences. The real problem with the > Armour websites are the pushing to take more and more without a care > to hidden dangers like elevated liver enzymes and calcium leaching. > > ________________________________ > From: Amy Green <amygreen53@... <mailto:amygreen53%40>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 8:53:43 AM > Subject: Re: Re: progress maybe? > > You're so right Venezia. Believe me, this is the only forum where I > feel comfortable posting that I actually seem to be having some > success with something other than Armour. Hopefully, I'll keep feeling > better and better on this. It's funny -- my brother has been on > synthroid for years -- is 58 -- has no other health problems, climbs > mountains and bikes all over the country -- while I was home, feeling > horrible, struggling to manage with Armour and yet telling him that > Armour was the only way to go. . : ) Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I take 75 mcg Synthroid alone for hypothyroidism. I notice that those who take Armour seemingly need to also take a ton of other stuff to feel as well as I do. Iodine several hundred percent of the max RDA, adrenal treatment, sex hormones and a dozen or so vitamins and minerals plus other supplements... You name it. At the same time they will blame any other ailments I have exclusively upon the lack of Armour or the others myriad items they ingest; all with no credible support whatsoever. You read the evidence and make up your own mind. I don't recommend what I take to anyone, as I am not licensed to prescribe and I do not have the requisite education. The number of doses sold of Armour are fewer than 5% of the number of doses of Synthroid and its equivalents that are sold. While a number of people report vastly improved quality of life in going from Synthroid to Armour some report the opposite. In any credible controlled studies the improvement of going from Synthroid to Armour falls to placebo or chance. If it works for you, great. On many sites if it doesn't work for you and you mention the fact you will be booted off the list. Here you will find all kinds of opinions; and objections are seldom raised except for blatant rip-offs. .. .. > > Posted by: " Lethal Lee " pricklefoot3@... > <mailto:pricklefoot3@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > pricklefoot3 <pricklefoot3> > > > Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:51 am (PDT) > > Hi Roni, > > " 1 grain (60 mg) of Armour equals approximately 74 mcg of T4 > (Synthroid) " http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000016.htm > <http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000016.htm> > > They arrive at that calc this way.... > > 1 grain Armour contains 38mcg T4 + 9mcg T3 > " conventional " wisdom is that 1mcg T3 is 4 times as potent as T4. > > So 1 grain is supposedly equivalent to..... > > 38mcg T4 + (9mcg T3 x 4) > 38mcg + 36mcg = 74mcg T4 > > I dont think there IS any " equivalency " between Armour & T4 only meds. > > Most on T4 meds do badly or never completely feel well. > So IF you want to continue to feel poorly by all means take an > " equivalent " amount or Armour. > > On the other hand IF you want to feel well then take enough Armour to > eliminate your symptoms. That seems to be an average of between 3-5 > grains. > > Of course nothing will make you well if you havent addressed other > contributing factors like Adrenals, mineral & vitamin deficiencies/ > suboptimal levels, Sex Hormones, possible RT3 issues etc. > > Lethal Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 You can take magnesium with calcium. In fact calcium supplements are bundled with magnesium because calcium causes constipation and magnesium relieves constipation. -- Re: progress maybe? I think u said not to take mag with calcium? Is that right? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Then why is calcium bundled with magnesium? -- Re: progress maybe? Amy, My concern was the imbalance between doses. Is it possible you were doing something with the Armour to reduce absorption, such as food, soy, tea, calcium, or iron supplements? It would make more sense, if you had hyper symptoms with the Armour, since 25 mcg of T4 is essentially nothing. That seemed to be what you were suggesting with bone density and liver enzymes, right? Chuck > > > Chuck -- I tried it every way -- swallowed, sublingualed, all at once, > divided into several doses etc. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Amy, you might have something totally not related to thyroid meds or magnesium. I would get checked out with a rheumatologist and an orthopedist to see if there is something else involved. Just a suggestion. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Amy Green <amygreen53@...> Subject: Re: progress maybe? hypothyroidism Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 4:00 PM -- Good labs were a TSH typically of .1 (sometimes as low as .03) with the FT4 halfway up the range and the FT3 about a third of the way up the range. I know that many Armour enthusiasts would say that those are horrible labs because my FT3 is not out the top of the chart. Even then my legs (and muscles in general) were weak (not all the time...I have some decent days which is what is so confusing) and I always felt quite agitated with a lot of hyper symptoms but a temp a full degree below normal at best. Is ZMA something that GNC would sell or is it more specialized than that? My son keeps telling me I need to take creatine -- something he takes when he works out -- and I've also read about D-ribose, both of which are supposed to deal with cellular energy and ATP. When you say your muscles felt like mush -- like they wouldn't hold you up, or what? Mine are weak and then get real shaky -- cramp really easily too. I was in a store today for 20 minutes and it was TOO much. By the time I was checking out, my muscles were shaky and I felt pretty bad all over -- was having to hang on to the counter -- the only way I can cope then is to keep moving -- even just keep shifting my weight because if I try to just stand still at this point, it doesn't work. Could that be magnesium???? There's a book out on transdermal uses of magnesium and the guy who wrote it says he can rub mag oil into cramped up muscles and they let go. I've tried doing one leg and not the other and I can never tell a difference -- I don't know what to make of that. What do you think? I really do appreciate your help!!!! Amy ________________________________ From: <kennio@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:52:21 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? First I think we need to know what you and your doctor considered " good labs " . I personally am so horribly hypothyroid at a TSH 2.5 that I can't think straight; constipated, hair loss, the works. Magnesium deficiency made my muscles like mush. I was in the middle of lifting weight over my head when this all started and I just lost all power in my right arm and bonked myself with one of the weights. There is actually is a very popular patented bodybuilding supplement called ZMA. It is nothing but magnesium, zinc and b6... it sells for $30 a bottle. I don't suggest buying it. I think that those that ARE magnesium deficient that take it get seemingly miraculous results and their fanaticism about the product drives the craze for the product in others that maybe won't see the same results. I wouldn't underestimate what magnesium deficiency can do to your body. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ ZMA_(supplement) ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Amy Green <amygreen53 (DOT) com> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:59:23 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses. Or the references to bone density and liver enzymes. I think that may have been someone else. I just couldn't manage Armour -- it made me feel horribly hyper even when my labs were showing hypo and when my labs were good I also felt horribly hyper. The more I was on, the worse I felt and the less I was on, the better I felt. My main problem is really weak, wobbly muscles and a totally agitated body feeling (not emotional feeling). They get worse the more Armour I'm on. So I weaned myself off Armour in the last few months, and felt better and better -- I've been taking only 15mg of Armour. However, my labs tanked, so I can't just not take thyroid meds. (Although I'm really tempted.)   The result (possibly) of my lowering my Armour was a swollen thyroid that sometimes makes it hard to swallow and feels bad. So, I started Levothyroxine this week and at least my temps have come up. When I was on ~75mg of Armour, my daily temps were never above 97.7. even though my labs were good. That doesn't make sense!!!   After 3 days on Levo. (only 25mcg.) my temps are around 98.2. That's an improvement there and my legs muscles at first seemed better, but now it's back to the same old.. I give up trying to figure this out. My adrenals are ok (checked out by 24 hr saliva test) and my ferritin was in range, but low, so I'm taking iron and it's coming up. (That makes me nervous because I'm post meno and my hemoglobin is 14.7 and I sure don't want to end up with too much iron, but on some forums they say you need ferrritin to be around 90 for your body to be able to manage thyroid meds and mine's only around 40 at the moment -- and I'm desperate enough to believe just about anything.) I have good days (not normal though) and weak creepy days. I've been checked by a rheumatologist and a neurologist and apparently they think those systems check out. I am quite sure I'm low on magnesium, but it's hard to supplement that too heavily unless I want to live in the bathroom : ) And I can't imagine that just mag deficiency could make my muscles so weak and wobbly. So, I'm discouraged and stumped. I'm really really sensitive to thyroid meds (either one) -- I can FEEL it kick in and it's not a nice feeling. I wish this would all just go away! Sigh.   Any ideas? I would love any input!!!   Amy ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Chuck B <gumboyayacox (DOT) net> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:21:40 AM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, My concern was the imbalance between doses. Is it possible you were doing something with the Armour to reduce absorption, such as food, soy, tea, calcium, or iron supplements? It would make more sense, if you had hyper symptoms with the Armour, since 25 mcg of T4 is essentially nothing. That seemed to be what you were suggesting with bone density and liver enzymes, right? Chuck > > > Chuck -- I tried it every way -- swallowed, sublingualed, all at once, > divided into several doses etc. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks Roni -- I have been -- rheumatologist, neurologist, gynecologist, endo etc. I still wonder if they've missed something. : ( Amy ________________________________ From: Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 10:40:25 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, you might have something totally not related to thyroid meds or magnesium. I would get checked out with a rheumatologist and an orthopedist to see if there is something else involved. Just a suggestion. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 If you feel that way, I back you up and think you need to see more doctors. We instinctively know our own bodies better than anyone else. Keep going until you find a doctor that can accurately diagnose your problems. You might want to try one of the big hospitals, like Cleveland Clinic or New York Presbyterian or Cedars Sinai in CA. When I came down with fibromyalgia and then took a course about it, I met people who hadn't been diaganosed for 5 to 10 years, depending on the person and the doctors they saw. I was lucky, and got diagnosed pretty quickly. Good luck to you. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Amy Green <amygreen53@...> Subject: Re: progress maybe? hypothyroidism Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 9:44 PM Thanks Roni -- I have been -- rheumatologist, neurologist, gynecologist, endo etc. I still wonder if they've missed something. : ( Amy ________________________________ From: Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 10:40:25 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, you might have something totally not related to thyroid meds or magnesium. I would get checked out with a rheumatologist and an orthopedist to see if there is something else involved. Just a suggestion. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> ...       Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Not really discussing WHY calcium and magnesium are put in the same pill considering they compete for absorption. Apparently you absorb some of each during the absorption process despite the competition. We were really talking about curing a magnesium deficiency. Why would you take competing minerals when the problem you know is magnesium? Simple. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=calcium+magnesium+%22compete+for+absorption ________________________________ From: Nancie Barnett <deifspirit@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:14:03 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Then why is calcium bundled with magnesium? -- Re: progress maybe? Amy, My concern was the imbalance between doses. Is it possible you were doing something with the Armour to reduce absorption, such as food, soy, tea, calcium, or iron supplements? It would make more sense, if you had hyper symptoms with the Armour, since 25 mcg of T4 is essentially nothing. That seemed to be what you were suggesting with bone density and liver enzymes, right? Chuck > > > Chuck -- I tried it every way -- swallowed, sublingualed, all at once, > divided into several doses etc. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Amy, You wrote: > > Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses.... You had a pretty full dosage of Armour but improved by switching to only 25 mcg of T4, which is very close to no dose at all. That is what I mean by an imbalance. Would you mind sharing your actual test results with reference ranges, instead of just telling us that your labs said you were hypoT on all that Armour? Thanks, Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Amy Green wrote: > > > -- Good labs were a TSH typically of .1 (sometimes as low as .03) > with the FT4 halfway up the range and the FT3 about a third of the way > up the range.... That looks like a binding problem. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 why are you lucky to get a Dx if you don't get proper treatment? http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com Gracia If you feel that way, I back you up and think you need to see more doctors. We instinctively know our own bodies better than anyone else. Keep going until you find a doctor that can accurately diagnose your problems. You might want to try one of the big hospitals, like Cleveland Clinic or New York Presbyterian or Cedars Sinai in CA. When I came down with fibromyalgia and then took a course about it, I met people who hadn't been diaganosed for 5 to 10 years, depending on the person and the doctors they saw. I was lucky, and got diagnosed pretty quickly. Good luck to you. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 what was the " full dosage " of Armour? last thing I saw was 75mg, which is just toooo low. you cannot use TSH to dose Armour! sounds crazy but it's true. 75mg Armour made me very ill and I think it woud make you ill too. Gracia Amy, You wrote: > > Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses.... You had a pretty full dosage of Armour but improved by switching to only 25 mcg of T4, which is very close to no dose at all. That is what I mean by an imbalance. Would you mind sharing your actual test results with reference ranges, instead of just telling us that your labs said you were hypoT on all that Armour? Thanks, Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Are you referring to me and the other 599,000,000 million people with fibro in the U.S.? If there was a cure, don't you think we would all have taken it already? Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Gracia <circe@...> Subject: Re: progress maybe? hypothyroidism Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 1:02 PM  why are you lucky to get a Dx if you don't get proper treatment?  http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com  Gracia  If you feel that way, I back you up and think you need to see more doctors. We instinctively know our own bodies better than anyone else. Keep going until you find a doctor that can accurately diagnose your problems. You might want to try one of the big hospitals, like Cleveland Clinic or New York Presbyterian or Cedars Sinai in CA. When I came down with fibromyalgia and then took a course about it, I met people who hadn't been diaganosed for  5 to 10 years, depending on the person and the doctors they saw. I was lucky, and got  diagnosed pretty quickly. Good luck to you.  Roni  <>Just because something  isn't seen doesn't mean it's  not there<>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------  No virus found in this incoming message.  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com  Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 This is the very bottom of the website you recommended about fibromyalgia.  This website is currently under construction!  Please be patient while we are updating our website with the newest information and research about fibromyalgia treatments.  Estimated date of completion: 4/15/2008.  Please notice that it says treatments, not cure. This is since 4/15/08. Perhaps they'll have a cure by 4/15/09. That would be wonderful. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Gracia <circe@...> Subject: Re: progress maybe? hypothyroidism Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 1:02 PM  why are you lucky to get a Dx if you don't get proper treatment?  http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com  Gracia  If you feel that way, I back you up and think you need to see more doctors. We instinctively know our own bodies better than anyone else. Keep going until you find a doctor that can accurately diagnose your problems. You might want to try one of the big hospitals, like Cleveland Clinic or New York Presbyterian or Cedars Sinai in CA. When I came down with fibromyalgia and then took a course about it, I met people who hadn't been diaganosed for  5 to 10 years, depending on the person and the doctors they saw. I was lucky, and got  diagnosed pretty quickly. Good luck to you.  Roni  <>Just because something  isn't seen doesn't mean it's  not there<>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------  No virus found in this incoming message.  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com  Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 the woman who owns the website is out of the country--I think she is a missionary in Israel, she used to be bedridden. I think right now she doesn't have a lot of time for her website. Gracia This is the very bottom of the website you recommended about fibromyalgia. This website is currently under construction! Please be patient while we are updating our website with the newest information and research about fibromyalgia treatments. Estimated date of completion: 4/15/2008. Please notice that it says treatments, not cure. This is since 4/15/08. Perhaps they'll have a cure by 4/15/09. That would be wonderful. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 No, I don't have any other hypo symptoms; as a matter of fact the only " symptom " I ever had was a slightly elevated TSH. A re-test a couple of months later showed another increase, so I started Synthroid. My TSH dropped to within range and I've never had any symptoms and continue to take Synthroid. However, if you listen to some on hypo lists you'll find just about everything from hang nails to cancer blamed on hypothyroidism. I came here to find out about the disease, and I stay for that reason and also to try to help others. I generally present a viewpoint MOL in line with allopathic medicine and science to the extent that I understand them, although I have no formal training in either. I try to state that from time to time so others may take the bias of my position into consideration. .. .. > Posted by: " " kennio@... > <mailto:kennio@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > Kennio <Kennio> > > > Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:09 pm (PDT) > > You must be have other hypo symptoms if you're here on a hypo forum, > no? Tried Red yeast rice to lower cholesterol? > > ____________ > ____________________ > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>; > HypothyroidManagement > <mailto:HypothyroidManagement%40> > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 5:02:01 PM > Subject: Re: progress maybe? > > There's one person on this list who has posted more than once that > he/she has never met a person who takes $inthroid who is do well on it. > I'm 68 and that's all I take. I have been giving some thought to trying > Armour to see if it would negate my need for Lipitor. I'm a little > hesitant to make changes when everything is going well. > > Luck, > > > Cross posted to HypothyroidManageme ntgroups (DOT) com > . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 How little we appreciate our freedoms. In some countries you could be beheaded for a statement like that... PS: Yum, yum... > > Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@... > <mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > dudescholar <dudescholar> > > > Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:54 pm (PDT) > > > > wrote: > > One person commented to > > me off list that " ...a number of sacred cows were contentedly > > sleeping... " there before I came along! [ggg] > > They say, Sacred Cows taste the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 , if you saw my diet you'd probably have a stroke in sympathy! [ggg] I had a _lot_ of anxiety 25 years or so ago just before my first marriage fell apart. I suspect that my subconscious realized something was drastically wrong before I consciously realized it. [68] .. .. > > Posted by: " " kennio@... > <mailto:kennio@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progress%20maybe%3F> > Kennio <Kennio> > > > Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:51 am (PDT) > > I know what you mean BUT on the other hand I have been on numerous > forums where everyone is convinced that they have SOMETHING ELSE and > that can be a huge waste of time in my opinion. Fuzzy hypo thinking > gets people crazy. > > The forums for mercury poisoning, adrenal fatigue, morgellons > parasites, candida, fungus, you name it..... those forums are loaded > with people with thyroid disease and they are often under medicated > with TSH's in the high range of normal. TSH is just not a reliable > gauge of hypothyroidism. > > I personally think NOTHING ELSE should be considered as a cause of ill > health until hypothyroidism and the vitamin and mineral deficiencies > that it causes, are corrected. > > 1)Get the TSH under 1. > > 2)Get a Red blood cell analysis and cure the vitamin/mineral > deficiencies including ferritin and Vitamin D > > I've off or resisted all medications that doctors foisted on me to > treat my hypothyroidism symptoms and the resulting nutritional > deficiencies. I've instead cured the deficiencies one by one and now I > don't lay awake hearing my pounding, beat-skipping heart and worry it > will stop in my sleep, worry I'm going nuts with anxiety or have > constant fuzzy vision.... ALL symptoms of nutritional deficiency. > > Biggest results for me were from Magnesium... then Iron and Zinc close > behind. > > ____________ > ____________________ > From: Roni Molin <matchermaam@... <mailto:matchermaam%40>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:44:27 PM > Subject: Re: Re: progress maybe? > > When someone has a particular condition, it's common that they blame > other symptoms > on that condition too, without really checking out other things that > could be causing the new symptoms. Several conditons can exist at the > same time, and one is not necessarily the cause for any of the others. > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Chuck - I was on a pretty full dose of Armour and felt awful so I reduced the dose over time to only 15mg of Armour and felt much better for awhile. So switching to Levothyroxine dosage of 25mg was pretty much the same thing. On the full dose of Armour, my TSH was usually around .1 or less, my FT4 was halfway up the range and FT3 was a third of the way up the range. But I felt hugely hyper. On the lowered dose of Armour (15 mg) my TSH was 5.88 and both my FT4 and FT3 were below range, although just barely. I would post the exact ranges, but I' m on vacation and don't have them with me. So, I'm trying Levo and someone said they got the best results on a combo of Armour and Levo. I obviously need some thyroid hormone, I just don't seem to be able to manage straight Armour. Amy ________________________________ From: Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:08:31 PM Subject: Re: progress maybe? Amy, You wrote: > > Chuck -- I'm not sure what you mean by the imbalance between doses.... You had a pretty full dosage of Armour but improved by switching to only 25 mcg of T4, which is very close to no dose at all. That is what I mean by an imbalance. Would you mind sharing your actual test results with reference ranges, instead of just telling us that your labs said you were hypoT on all that Armour? Thanks, Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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