Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis??

[Guest guest]

Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis, this

is

what my endo just told me today.... I don't believe it.. below is an

address that states the oposite about osteo..

http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

If you can't get here by clicking on the address then try copy &

pasting it.

I would like to hear your comments on this.. I have to have blood

work

tomarrow and call her Friday to get the news.. She wants to lower my

meds. again and I think I need to add some meds.. I lowered them last

time....and have gotten worse with some things like freezing again

then

getting very hot and sweating..

give me your thoughts...

thanks

Bev

[Guest guest]

Bev,

You wrote:

>

>

> Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis, this

> is

> what my endo just told me today.... I don't believe it.. below is an

> address that states the oposite about osteo..

>

> http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

> <http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php> ...

There are more. The association of low TSH with cardiac and osteo

problems is an invalid extrapolation from Grave's disease. Here are two

recent papers that show no osteoporosis on meds.

A year 2000 study of 10,364 Swedish women, age 49-69, of whom 768 were

currently on thyroxine medication, showed absolutely no difference in

bone mass density between those on thyroxine and those not.

http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1d62e2.htm

V. Nuzzo, et al., Gynecol Endocrinol. 1998 Oct;12(5):333-7 studied 40

premenopausal women with non-toxic goiter on L-thyroxine suppressive

therapy; result: absolutely no effect on bone density compared to

standards measured several different ways.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9\

859026 & dopt=Abstract

You might ask her to show you a study that demonstrates that TSH

suppressed by thyroid medication is associated with either of those

problems. I haven't found any.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck, thanks so much for this info. It sounds like I have the same endo as

this person because mine told me the same thing and uses it as a reason to cut

my meds! Anyways, thanks, -

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I didn't see any post about this topic from Chuck, what did he say..

Chuch, what did you say??????

thanks

Bev

>

> Chuck, thanks so much for this info. It sounds like I have the same

endo as this person because mine told me the same thing and uses it as

a reason to cut my meds! Anyways, thanks, -

>

[Guest guest]

I found the post...

thanks Chuck,

I will do just that.. I have to call her in the morning at 9am..

thanks so much for your thoughts , your work on finding these

articals and your support.....

Bev

> >

> >

> > Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis,

this

> > is

> > what my endo just told me today.... I don't believe it.. below

is an

> > address that states the oposite about osteo..

> >

> > http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

> > <http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php> ...

>

> There are more. The association of low TSH with cardiac and osteo

> problems is an invalid extrapolation from Grave's disease. Here

are two

> recent papers that show no osteoporosis on meds.

>

> A year 2000 study of 10,364 Swedish women, age 49-69, of whom 768

were

> currently on thyroxine medication, showed absolutely no difference

in

> bone mass density between those on thyroxine and those not.

> http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1d62e2.htm

>

> V. Nuzzo, et al., Gynecol Endocrinol. 1998 Oct;12(5):333-7 studied

40

> premenopausal women with non-toxic goiter on L-thyroxine

suppressive

> therapy; result: absolutely no effect on bone density compared to

> standards measured several different ways.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9859026 & dopt=Abstract

>

> You might ask her to show you a study that demonstrates that TSH

> suppressed by thyroid medication is associated with either of

those

> problems. I haven't found any.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chuck

I was reading the articals and didn't find any references or

anything about suppressed TSH and heart disease. Do you have

anything or TSH and heart disease.. and I didn't really see my

situation in the articals..

I won't know my new test results until in the morning but 7 weeks

ago they were TSH suppressed to < .01 (0.34-4.82) , FT4 1.61

(0.80-1.80), FT3 5.1 (2.1-4.4)

and I still have hypo symptoms and after these results she had me

reduced my armour from 120 mg. to 90 mgs. an kept my cytomel at

50mcg. after this my temps. have went haywire.. it drops and I

freeze then I start sweating and get hot. it's like I'm freezing,

burning up and sweating all at the same time...I wondering if

menopause has anything to do with it,, but it was after lowering the

armour that it started happening..

thanks

Bev

> >

> >

> > Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis,

this

> > is

> > what my endo just told me today.... I don't believe it.. below

is an

> > address that states the oposite about osteo..

> >

> > http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

> > <http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php> ...

>

> There are more. The association of low TSH with cardiac and osteo

> problems is an invalid extrapolation from Grave's disease. Here

are two

> recent papers that show no osteoporosis on meds.

>

> A year 2000 study of 10,364 Swedish women, age 49-69, of whom 768

were

> currently on thyroxine medication, showed absolutely no difference

in

> bone mass density between those on thyroxine and those not.

> http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1d62e2.htm

>

> V. Nuzzo, et al., Gynecol Endocrinol. 1998 Oct;12(5):333-7 studied

40

> premenopausal women with non-toxic goiter on L-thyroxine

suppressive

> therapy; result: absolutely no effect on bone density compared to

> standards measured several different ways.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9859026 & dopt=Abstract

>

> You might ask her to show you a study that demonstrates that TSH

> suppressed by thyroid medication is associated with either of

those

> problems. I haven't found any.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Bev,

You wrote:

> I was reading the articals and didn't find any references or

> anything about suppressed TSH and heart disease. Do you have

> anything or TSH and heart disease..

There are a bunch of papers linked here:

http://www.mythyroid.com/heartdisease.html

As with the osteoporosis, the links between low TSH and some cardiac

problems have been well documented for thyroid cancer and even

subclinical hyperthyroidism. I didn't read all these papers, so there

may be one about meds causing it, but the ones I have looked at did not

make that connection. The main reason may be that thyroid meds,

especially T3, artificially suppress TSH without the usually associated

adverse health effects.

Please let us know if you find anything to the contrary. It would be

nice to know where the endos get this idea.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

Your wealth of information if much appreciated, however, the

contradictory nature of scientific research is simply baffling.

While following a link that you had given on hypo treatment and

cardiac effect, I clicked on another link on that same page,

published by the same website, and this is what I found:

http://www.mythyroid.com/optimalthyroid.html

" Some patients sensitive to and concerned about this issue who feel

strongly about the need for exogenous T3 are taking thyroid extract,

as available from companies such as Armour Pharmaceuticals, which

contains a combination of both T4 and T3.

Some thyroid extract preparations may not always be as standardized,

compared to simple thyroxine tablets, with respect to the relative

amounts of T4 and T3 in each preparation. Furthermore, taking T3,

ideally in physiologically normal amounts but sometimes

inadvertently in excess is not always without risk. T3 is ~ 10 times

more potent than T4, and can have very significant and rapid effects

on heart rate and blood pressure. Whereas T3 is often well tolerated

in younger patients taking the correct dose, older patients with

known or suspected heart disease should be extremely cautious about

taking significant amounts of T3. A single dose of T3 can

significantly increase oxygen consumption by the heart, which can be

highly problematic and potentially dangerous in patients with

coronary artery disease. Accordingly, patients considering T3 as a

form of thyroid hormone replacement need to discuss the potential

risks and benefits of such therapy in detail with their physician.

For an example of cardiac risk in patients with high levels of T3,

see Excess triiodothyronine as a risk factor of coronary events Arch

Intern Med 2000 Jul 10;160(13):1993-9. "

So, not only is it saying that products like Armour are, just as my

doctor keeps blabbing, 'not standardized' and thus implying 'not

safe' or 'not good', but that taking this T3 that we

might 'inadvertedly' take 'in excess' would cause cardiac problems

such as increased oxygen consumption.

To be honest, I really need to know which research is right. I am

32 years old, and up until last year, I was very active, through my

work and through excercizing and through hobbies like dancing and

hiking. Now, if I run a flight of stairs, one little flight to

catch a train, I can't catch my breath for a good few minutes, I

huff and puff and gasp for air, and my heart races like I'm going to

die. I try to keep active a little bit every day, mostly through

walking and a little Pilates here and there, but if I exert myself

any little bit, I'm done. I get nauseaus and dizzy, and have

problem breathing.

Now, according to my doc, the 180mg of Armour I was taking were way

too much, and even the 165 now is too much. My TSH is suppressed

to .01, and free T3 is SLIGHTLY above the normal range. However,

since I cut down, I began getting daily headaches, again, and chest

pain, and clavicle bone pain. And, more and more, I feel wiped

out. I'm fine, then I just drop and I'm done.

All of this, not to mention that my testosterone situation has not

improved, not on the lower dosage, and not on the lower dosage

either. The doc says that once the 'thyroid will even out',

whatever that means, all, including this, will return to normal.

However, just like with the 'too high' dosage of Armour, he believes

supplementing with even the smallest amount of testosterone will

cause heart problems.

In the meantime, I walk around a mere nothing copy of my former

self, always in pain, always exhausted, always retaining water and

excess weight, never 'in the mood' or in the mood to do anything,

really, often out of breath. I can't keep living like this. It's

been 10 months since treatment, 16 years of suffering and made to

feel like a hypocondriac... And, here I think I will finally get

some answers, somewhere, anywhere, but everything is contradictory,

and no real hope in sight. I'm just told to 'wait'. Not even an

answer for how long to wait, what 'evened out' thyroid really means,

nothing.

So, is it safe to increase my dose back up, despite what the doc

said, since I didn't feel any hyper symptoms? Or is the higher

dosage really contributing to my problems? Or the the 'too little'

dosage?

Please, please help me find some clarification, with certainty.

>

> > I was reading the articals and didn't find any references or

> > anything about suppressed TSH and heart disease. Do you have

> > anything or TSH and heart disease..

>

> There are a bunch of papers linked here:

> http://www.mythyroid.com/heartdisease.html

>

> As with the osteoporosis, the links between low TSH and some

cardiac

> problems have been well documented for thyroid cancer and even

> subclinical hyperthyroidism. I didn't read all these papers, so

there

> may be one about meds causing it, but the ones I have looked at

did not

> make that connection. The main reason may be that thyroid meds,

> especially T3, artificially suppress TSH without the usually

associated

> adverse health effects.

>

> Please let us know if you find anything to the contrary. It would

be

> nice to know where the endos get this idea.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

neuromancer74,

You wrote:

>

> ...the contradictory nature of scientific research is simply baffling....

Let's dissect what you quoted. First, this is not peer reviewed

research. It is an opinion piece, an interpretation. Some opinions I

trust, almost as much as the literature itself, which still does not

give 100% confidence. This one has a bunch of suspect claims. For example:

> http://www.mythyroid.com/optimalthyroid.html

> <http://www.mythyroid.com/optimalthyroid.html>

>

> ... Some thyroid extract preparations may not always be as standardized,

> compared to simple thyroxine tablets, with respect to the relative

> amounts of T4 and T3 in each preparation. ...

First, this mentions Armour in the preceding paragraph, but this

sentence is more generalized. At one time Armour may have been less than

perfectly standardized, but now, it is, making this statement patently

false, or at least VERY out of date, if interpreted as applying to

Armour. Those recent recalls were for instability, failing to maintain

the standardized dose equivalent for 90 days. That is very different

from failing to meeting initial standards.

>...Furthermore, taking T3, ideally in physiologically normal amounts

but sometimes

> inadvertently in excess is not always without risk. ... Accordingly, patients

> considering T3 as a

> form of thyroid hormone replacement need to discuss the potential

> risks and benefits of such therapy in detail with their physician. ...

This part seems reasonable, but it really should apply to any

prescription, not just Armour or T3. Too much at one time could be

dangerous. If there were no risk, a medication would not require a

prescription.

> For an example of cardiac risk in patients with high levels of T3,

> see Excess triiodothyronine as a risk factor of coronary events Arch

> Intern Med 2000 Jul 10;160(13):1993-9. "

>

Perhaps you thought this was what we were talking about. It isn't. We

were discussing TSH being too low. Here is the abstract of the paper cited:

[begin abstract]

Excess triiodothyronine as a risk factor of coronary events.

s A, Ehlers M, Blank B, Exler D, Falk C, Kohlmann T,

Fruehwald-Schultes B, Wellhoener P, Kerner W, Fehm HL.

Medical Clinic 1, Medical University of Lubeck, Ratzeburger Allee 160,

D-23538 Lubeck, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Abnormalities in cardiac function, eg, arrhythmias and

congestive heart failure, often accompany thyrotoxicosis. A relationship

between thyroid hormone excess and the cardiac complications of angina

pectoris and myocardial infarction (MI) remains largely speculative.

METHODS: The results of thyroid function studies on blood samples drawn

from a total of 1049 patients (aged 40 years or older) immediately on

emergency medical admission were related to frequencies of angina

pectoris and myocardial infarction as determined according to current

diagnostic algorithms. After 3 years, those patients who had initially

presented with angina pectoris or acute MI were observed for subsequent

coronary events; of these (n=185), 98% of the subjects (n=181) could be

reevaluated. RESULTS: On hospital admission, the relative rate of angina

pectoris and MI was markedly high (odds ratio, 2.6; 95% confidence

interval, 1.3-5.2; P=.007) in patients with elevated serum free and

total triiodothyronine (T(3)) levels. An initially elevated free T(3)

level was a risk factor for subsequent coronary events during the 3-year

follow-up (adjusted odds ratio, 4.8; 95% confidence interval, 1.3-17.4;

P=.02). CONCLUSIONS: An elevation of serum free T(3) levels at hospital

admission is associated with a 2.6-fold greater likelihood of the

presence of a coronary event. Moreover, an initially elevated T(3) level

is associated with a 3-fold higher risk of developing a subsequent

coronary event during the next 3 years. Excess T(3) seemed to be a

factor associated with the development and progression of acute

myocardial ischemia.

[end abstract]

See the difference? This is talking about elevated Free T3 ONLY. That

means the Free T3 is above the normal range to produce the 2.6 factor of

recurrence. This is not TSH suppressed by medication. It is elevated

FT3, and the cause of elevation is not specified. These are simply walk

in cardiac patients checked for FT3. That means it includes Grave's

disease. How many is not specified in the abstract, and I don't have

access to the full paper. I suppose it could be a majority.

> So, not only is it saying that products like Armour are, just as my

> doctor keeps blabbing, 'not standardized' and thus implying 'not

> safe' or 'not good', but that taking this T3 that we

> might 'inadvertedly' take 'in excess' would cause cardiac problems

> such as increased oxygen consumption.

After years on these lists, I have never seen anyone report FT3 above

the normal range from taking Armour. The issue is always that TSH seems

to be too low. That is the issue.

>

> To be honest, I really need to know which research is right....

So do the doctors.

> ... Now, according to my doc, the 180mg of Armour I was taking were way

> too much, and even the 165 now is too much. My TSH is suppressed

> to .01, and free T3 is SLIGHTLY above the normal range....

I would vote for FT3 sitting right at the top of the range. Slightly

above might be " close enough, " if you are still having symptoms.

> ... However,

> since I cut down, I began getting daily headaches, again, and chest

> pain, and clavicle bone pain. And, more and more, I feel wiped

> out. I'm fine, then I just drop and I'm done.

Your reactions imply that something else is going on, adrenals perhaps.

Was that checked?

The best papers I have been able to find say that there is a risk from

subclinical hyperthyroidism, but that is defined as high FT3 WITHOUT

MEDICATION. Again, I haven't seen any evidence that a TSH just below the

normal range is risky if it is caused by a T3 based medication. So, I

would not push your FT3 any higher until you rule out other problems.

OTOH, was your test taken right after your meds?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

docs don't know how to use Armour. usual dose of Armour is 180-300mg, not

dosed to TSH test. Most hypos are undertreated, untreated, and/or on the wrong

med.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

Gracia

Chuck,

Your wealth of information if much appreciated, however, the

contradictory nature of scientific research is simply baffling.

While following a link that you had given on hypo treatment and

cardiac effect, I clicked on another link on that same page,

published by the same website, and this is what I found:

http://www.mythyroid.com/optimalthyroid.html

" Some patients sensitive to and concerned about this issue who feel

strongly about the need for exogenous T3 are taking thyroid extract,

as available from companies such as Armour Pharmaceuticals, which

contains a combination of both T4 and T3.

Some thyroid extract preparations may not always be as standardized,

compared to simple thyroxine tablets, with respect to the relative

amounts of T4 and T3 in each preparation. Furthermore, taking T3,

ideally in physiologically normal amounts but sometimes

inadvertently in excess is not always without risk. T3 is ~ 10 times

more potent than T4, and can have very significant and rapid effects

on heart rate and blood pressure. Whereas T3 is often well tolerated

in younger patients taking the correct dose, older patients with

known or suspected heart disease should be extremely cautious about

taking significant amounts of T3. A single dose of T3 can

significantly increase oxygen consumption by the heart, which can be

highly problematic and potentially dangerous in patients with

coronary artery disease. Accordingly, patients considering T3 as a

form of thyroid hormone replacement need to discuss the potential

risks and benefits of such therapy in detail with their physician.

For an example of cardiac risk in patients with high levels of T3,

see Excess triiodothyronine as a risk factor of coronary events Arch

Intern Med 2000 Jul 10;160(13):1993-9. "

So, not only is it saying that products like Armour are, just as my

doctor keeps blabbing, 'not standardized' and thus implying 'not

safe' or 'not good', but that taking this T3 that we

might 'inadvertedly' take 'in excess' would cause cardiac problems

such as increased oxygen consumption.

To be honest, I really need to know which research is right. I am

32 years old, and up until last year, I was very active, through my

work and through excercizing and through hobbies like dancing and

hiking. Now, if I run a flight of stairs, one little flight to

catch a train, I can't catch my breath for a good few minutes, I

huff and puff and gasp for air, and my heart races like I'm going to

die. I try to keep active a little bit every day, mostly through

walking and a little Pilates here and there, but if I exert myself

any little bit, I'm done. I get nauseaus and dizzy, and have

problem breathing.

Now, according to my doc, the 180mg of Armour I was taking were way

too much, and even the 165 now is too much. My TSH is suppressed

to .01, and free T3 is SLIGHTLY above the normal range. However,

since I cut down, I began getting daily headaches, again, and chest

pain, and clavicle bone pain. And, more and more, I feel wiped

out. I'm fine, then I just drop and I'm done.

All of this, not to mention that my testosterone situation has not

improved, not on the lower dosage, and not on the lower dosage

either. The doc says that once the 'thyroid will even out',

whatever that means, all, including this, will return to normal.

However, just like with the 'too high' dosage of Armour, he believes

supplementing with even the smallest amount of testosterone will

cause heart problems.

In the meantime, I walk around a mere nothing copy of my former

self, always in pain, always exhausted, always retaining water and

excess weight, never 'in the mood' or in the mood to do anything,

really, often out of breath. I can't keep living like this. It's

been 10 months since treatment, 16 years of suffering and made to

feel like a hypocondriac... And, here I think I will finally get

some answers, somewhere, anywhere, but everything is contradictory,

and no real hope in sight. I'm just told to 'wait'. Not even an

answer for how long to wait, what 'evened out' thyroid really means,

nothing.

So, is it safe to increase my dose back up, despite what the doc

said, since I didn't feel any hyper symptoms? Or is the higher

dosage really contributing to my problems? Or the the 'too little'

dosage?

Please, please help me find some clarification, with certainty.

>

> > I was reading the articals and didn't find any references or

> > anything about suppressed TSH and heart disease. Do you have

> > anything or TSH and heart disease..

>

> There are a bunch of papers linked here:

> http://www.mythyroid.com/heartdisease.html

>

> As with the osteoporosis, the links between low TSH and some

cardiac

> problems have been well documented for thyroid cancer and even

> subclinical hyperthyroidism. I didn't read all these papers, so

there

> may be one about meds causing it, but the ones I have looked at

did not

> make that connection. The main reason may be that thyroid meds,

> especially T3, artificially suppress TSH without the usually

associated

> adverse health effects.

>

> Please let us know if you find anything to the contrary. It would

be

> nice to know where the endos get this idea.

>

> Chuck

>

----------

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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[Guest guest]

My doctor made me stay in the cardiac division of the hospital for one day. He

said that the medication I am taking for my thyroid can affect the heart. I am

taking .75MCG Levothyroxine.

Bev <bdowns45681@...> wrote:

I found the post...

thanks Chuck,

I will do just that.. I have to call her in the morning at 9am..

thanks so much for your thoughts , your work on finding these

articals and your support.....

Bev

> >

> >

> > Suppressed TSH is associated with heart disease & osteoporosis,

this

> > is

> > what my endo just told me today.... I don't believe it.. below

is an

> > address that states the oposite about osteo..

> >

> > http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

> > <http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php> ...

>

> There are more. The association of low TSH with cardiac and osteo

> problems is an invalid extrapolation from Grave's disease. Here

are two

> recent papers that show no osteoporosis on meds.

>

> A year 2000 study of 10,364 Swedish women, age 49-69, of whom 768

were

> currently on thyroxine medication, showed absolutely no difference

in

> bone mass density between those on thyroxine and those not.

> http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1d62e2.htm

>

> V. Nuzzo, et al., Gynecol Endocrinol. 1998 Oct;12(5):333-7 studied

40

> premenopausal women with non-toxic goiter on L-thyroxine

suppressive

> therapy; result: absolutely no effect on bone density compared to

> standards measured several different ways.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9859026 & dopt=Abstract

>

> You might ask her to show you a study that demonstrates that TSH

> suppressed by thyroid medication is associated with either of

those

> problems. I haven't found any.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your thoughts P.

I thought I would email back as what I decided to do about meds.

when

she said to lower them.

My FT3 came back 5.3 (2.1-4.4), my FT4, FT4 was in lower range and

TSH

is <0.01 so since I have been freezing, very hot and sweating at the

same time some times, I've decided to lower my Cytomel by 12.5 mcg.

I'm

now taking 37.5 mcg. of Cytomel.. She wanted me to lower the Cytomel

by

1/2 but I'm not doing that, just 1/4 this time anyway.. I can always

go

back up if need be. I go to get test in 5 weeks again..

Bev

> My doctor made me stay in the cardiac division of the hospital for

one day. He said that the medication I am taking for my thyroid can

affect the heart. I am taking .75MCG Levothyroxine.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

PATRICK,

You wrote:

>

> My doctor made me stay in the cardiac division of the hospital for one

> day. He said that the medication I am taking for my thyroid can affect

> the heart. I am taking .75MCG Levothyroxine.

Yes, sudden changes in T4 dose (but especially T3 dosage) can cause an

oscillation in FT3. The oscillation can paradoxically swing to the high

side, causing a momentary but extreme hyperT condition, which, in turn,

can cause cardiac problems. However, that is not the question.

We have been asking for peer reviewed research studies, not one

practitioner's opinion or belief, that chronic suppressed TSH is

associated with heart disease and osteoporosis. Clearly, Grave's disease

has been documented to have those effects, but TSH suppressed by

medication is not the same thing, even though many doctors assume it is

equivalent. I'm asking for proof, double blind, peer reviewed,

unmistakable, proof.

BTW, 75 mcg is probably too little (also a cardiac risk) unless you are

both male (assumed) and elderly. Or, if you still have partial thyroid

function, which makes the oscillation scenario more likely.

Chuck