Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Chuck I did not " refuse " to " pull out " any citations as you state. AsI wished to save myself unnecessary work, I posted a link direct to the TPA response to the BTA statement on Armour. The citations you posted, and for obvious reasons, are in the references below, together with a few more. I'm not a scientist, just a reasonably well informed patient who got well on natural thyroid extract and scientific jargon goes way over my head. I haven't the faintest idea what can and cannot be accepted as " scientific calibre " and that is not why I am a member of this board, so will leave 'what is science and what is not' to yourself and others to discuss. What I am trying to do is to help other sufferers where I can, and try to explain the little bit of what I have learned (in as least a scientific way as I can) to other members, who, like me, may also not have much of a clue about the 'science' behind the specific hormones that are in Armour, and basically, the role they play. I do not go by manufacturers recommendations like they are written in stone. They are what they are - recommendations only. I work from personal experience and the experience of others who have used Armour and combination T4/T3 therapy in the hope this information may help them, or help those who are not regaining their health on synthetic thyroxine alone. I have read the work of both and Shames with respect and admiration. Are you saying that their work is unsubstantial and should be ignored because it has not been peer reviewed ? As far as and Shames work is concerned, I personally feel an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. Sheila _________________________ The Third Thyroid Hormone: 3, 5-diiodo-l-thyronine (T2) Many endocrinologists believe there is little (or no) information about the other thyroid hormones 3, 5-diiodo-l-thyronine (T2) and monoiodothyronine (T1). This is not the case. The manufacturers of Armour Thyroid to USP (Forest Pharmaceuticals) have done no studies into the specific amount of T2, T1, calcitonin or any other `T' hormones that are naturally occurring in the desiccated thyroid. Nothing has been removed in the processing. There may be advantages to using Armour that are not related to its T3 content. Broda observed some patients treated with syntheticT4/T3 combination continued to experience residual symptoms, particularly dry skin and oedema. Both symptoms resolved in 1-2 months when the treatment was changed to Armour.(1) This observation suggests a third active substance is secreted by the thyroid gland. The most likely candidate is diiodotyrosine(T2). Although little was known about the function of this compound in humans, the widely held assumption that it is metabolically inert may be incorrect. In a study of guinea pigs, oral administration of T2 prevented alterations in thyroid and pituitary function induced by oophorectom.(2) Administration of T2 also accelerated the metamorphosis of tadpoles and enhanced the growth of the protozoan Tetrahymena. (3), (4) Whole thyroid extracts contain T4 and T3, and also T2 and T1, which also have hormonal activity.(5), (6),(7), (8), (9). (10), (11), (12). (13), (14), (15), (16), (17), (18). (19) Notably, as we have seen, T2 is very active in its metabolic effects.(5) T2 has been shown to increase hepatic oxygen consumption by about 30%. The authors of the study discovered that out of T4, T3 and T2, only T2 was active in stimulating rapid hepatic oxygen consumption. They concluded that it acts rapidly and directly through activation of the mitochondria.(6) In another study, T3 and T2 were compared in terms of Resting Metabolism (RM) and on the oxidative capacity of tissues that are metabolically active (liver, muscle tissue, brown adipose tissue or BAT, and heart). What they found was that T2 had a dose-dependent effect, which increased RM and oxidative capacity. They found the greatest response to T2 was in the liver and in BAT. The effects again occurred rapidly and independently of protein synthesis. They stated that their results suggested isomers like T2 could be direct mediators of thyroid hormone regulation on energy metabolism.(7), (8) A further study found increased hepatic oxidative capacity and thought this was due to a direct action upon the mitochondria by T2.(9) Other studies had similar findings.(10), (11) Yet another study showed the same thing: increased oxidative capacity and energy expenditure, causing the authors to suggest that T2 and T3 displayed similar effects.(12) T2 was also shown to have a similar effect to that of T3 on lipid metabolism with T2 actually doing a little better in some tissue.(13) Although there is little research in humans, some does exist. In one study, using human mononuclear blood cells, it was found that T2 increased the rate of respiration significantly.(15) So, the efficacy appears to have been established. Can it significantly inhibit TSH like T3 and T4? The studies are conflicting, but one thing seems to be prevalent amongst them all — TSH inhibition isn't nearly as severe with T2 as it is with T3.(14) One study showed that T2 is 13% less inhibitory on TSH levels, as compared to T3.(15) In yet another study, T3 and T2 suppressed TSH to similar levels; however, it took 15 mcg/100g body weight per day of T3 to accomplish this, while it took 200 mcg/100g body weight per day of T2 to accomplish the same thing. This means it took about 13 times more T2 to exert the same effect on TSH as T3.(16) When researchers in another study administered 100 ug/kg of T3 and 800-1600 ug/kg of T2 the following occurred: T3 rapidly decreased serum TSH levels to within minimal levels after 24 hours. Seventy-two hours after application, TSH levels were still significantly lower than control levels. As far as the T2, TSH levels were transiently reduced and reached their lowest point at 24 hours and increased afterwards. Basal levels were reached 72 hours after an application. What they found after analysing the data was that there seemed to be a trend for a dose-dependent suppression of TSH by T2, which did not reach statistical significance. Furthermore, it appears as though it took 100 times more T2 than T3 to finally exert the same amount of TSH inhibition. Even using 400 times more T2 than T3, it appears that T3 only allows TSH to be inhibited to just a slight degree less than T2.(17) References: 1) BO. " Is there a third hormone in the thyroid gland? Which preparation should be used for treatment? " J Int Acad Prev Med 1982; November:38-39. 2) Loeser A. " Thyroid and ovary " . Journal of the American Medical Association 1935;104: 870. 3). Morse M. " The effective principle in thyroid accelerating involution in frog larvae " . J Biol Chem 1914;19:421-429 4). Csaba G, Nemeth G. " Enhancement of the sensitivity of Tetrahymena to a second hormonal influence by hormone pre-treatment " . Acta Biol Med Ger 1980;39:1027-1030 5) Shames, RL, Shames, KH, Thyroid Power: 10 Steps to Total Health, Harper Publishers, New York, 2001. 6) Rothfeld, G.S., Romaine, D.S., " Thyroid Balance: Traditional and Alternative Methods for Treating Thyroid Disorders " , Media Corporation, Avon, Massachusetts, USA, 2003. 7) Brownstein, D., Overcoming Thyroid Disorders, Medical Alternatives Press, 2002. 8) Lombardi, A.Lanni, A.Silvestri,E. de Lange, P.Goglia, F.Moreno,M. 3, 5Diiodothyronine: Biological Actions and Therapeutic Perspectives. pp.255-265 (11) 9) Lanni A et.al. " 3,5-diiodo-l-thyroxine (T2) reduces adiposity and body weight gain in rats by increasing fatty acid ocidation " . Abstracts.2004. European thyroid Association Annual Meeting. 10) Goglia et al. FEBS Letters. 452, 115-120 (1999) 11) Lombardi et al. Biochem J. 330, 521-526 (1998). 12) Lombardi et al. Endocrinology. 141, 1729-1734 (2000) 13) Ball et al. J Molec Endocrinology. 19, 137-147 (1997). 14) Assunta Lombardi, Antonia Lanni, Pieter de Lange, Elena Silvestri, Paola Grasso, lba Senese, Goglia and Moreno. " Acute administration of 3,5-diiodo-l-thyronine to hypothyroid rats affects bioenergetic parameters in rat skeletal muscle mitochondria " .FEBS Letters, Volume 581, Issue 30, 22 December 2007, Pages 5911-5916 15) J. Kvetny. Horm. Metab. Res. 24:322-325, 1992. 16. Moreno M, et al. " Effect of 3, 5-Diiodo-L-thyronine on thyroid stimulating hormone and growth hormone serum levels in hypothyroid rats. " Life Sciences, Volume 62, No.26, pp. 2369-2377, 1998. 17. Horst C, et al. " 3, 5-Di-iodo-L-thyronine suppresses TSH in rats in vivo and in rat pituitary fragments in vitro. " J Endocrinol 1995 May;145(2):291-7 > > > > I am not going to pull out the different citations about T2, but I > > will give you a link to the following...and apologies, yes it does > > contain a citation to the Broda 'speculation'.... > > Your refusal to " pull out " any citations, after all the requests that > you back up your statements about T2, suggests that there aren't any > scientific studies that do so, particularly since I have given you > several studies that say quite the opposite. > > The citation that this Patient Advocacy Response references to support > its claim that T2 is active (#26) is the following: > > Shames, RL, Shames, KH, Thyroid Power: 10 Steps to Total Health, Harper > Publishers, New York, 2001. > > That is a popular book, not a research study. It was not reviewed by > anyone other than the publisher. It does not have the status of archival > scientific literature. The fact that your document, a Broda > apologia, cites such a book to support a central claim about the potency > of T2 reflects badly on its scientific caliber. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Sheila, How does it help people to tell them something which is not true? It is clearly your opinion that and Shames are correct in their claims that the T2 and T1 in Armour make a big difference, even to being miraculously curative, and that the authors of the Patient Advocacy Group Response to the BTA agree with that opinion. However, unless there is a test or a study, using reviewed methodology and equipment, to confirm these claims, it is just a chain of opinion. I showed you several recent studies that concluded the opposite, that T2 is only active in two minor areas, and that there is not enough in Armour to make any difference, even if it were active. Although these sources keep claiming that Forest does not measure T2 in its Armour, this does not mean that T2 has never been measured. For example, here is a study from 1981 in which the T2 concentration in human thyroid glands was measured and compared to the other iodothyronines. Ironically, these measurements were made to detect effects of excess iodine exposure: Reinwein D, Durrer HA, Meinhold H. Horm, " Iodine, thyroxine (T4), triiodothyronine (T3), 3,3',5'-triiodothyronine (rT3), 3,3'-diiodothyronine (T2) in normal human thyroids. Effect of excessive iodine exposure, " Metab Res. 1981 Aug;13(8):456-9. Here are the mean levels in thyroid glands at autopsy from normal iodine exposure: T4 93.0 +-23.1 micrograms/g T3 5.25+-0.99 micrograms/g RT3 5.54+-1.05 micrograms/g T2 0.60+-1.19 micrograms/g " T2 represents only 0.73% of T4. " That is consistent with the term " trace. " Chuck You wrote: > > I did not " refuse " to " pull out " any citations as you state. AsI wished > to save myself unnecessary work, I posted a link direct to the TPA > response to the BTA statement on Armour. The citations you posted, and > for obvious reasons, are in the references below, together with a few > more. > > I'm not a scientist, just a reasonably well informed patient who got > well on natural thyroid extract and scientific jargon goes way over my > head. I haven't the faintest idea what can and cannot be accepted as > " scientific calibre " and that is not why I am a member of this board, so > will leave 'what is science and what is not' to yourself and others to > discuss. What I am trying to do is to help other sufferers where I can, > and try to explain the little bit of what I have learned (in as least a > scientific way as I can) to other members, who, like me, may also not > have much of a clue about the 'science' behind the specific hormones > that are in Armour, and basically, the role they play. I do not go by > manufacturers recommendations like they are written in stone. They are > what they are - recommendations only. I work from personal experience > and the experience of others who have used Armour and combination T4/T3 > therapy in the hope this information may help them, or help those who > are not regaining their health on synthetic thyroxine alone. > > I have read the work of both and Shames with respect and > admiration. Are you saying that their work is unsubstantial and should > be ignored because it has not been peer reviewed ? > > As far as and Shames work is concerned, I personally feel an > ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. > > Sheila > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 You shouldn't have any trouble finding any number of quacks with a ton of practice and not an ounce of theory to back any of it up. And they all will probably have a ton of testimonials; the hallmark of the con artist. > As far as and Shames work is concerned, I personally feel an > ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. > > Sheila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Chuck, dontchya think that if something is there then it must serve some purpose, even if we don't know what it is? Gracia Sheila, How does it help people to tell them something which is not true? It is clearly your opinion that and Shames are correct in their claims that the T2 and T1 in Armour make a big difference, even to being miraculously curative, and that the authors of the Patient Advocacy Group Response to the BTA agree with that opinion. However, unless there is a test or a study, using reviewed methodology and equipment, to confirm these claims, it is just a chain of opinion. I showed you several recent studies that concluded the opposite, that T2 is only active in two minor areas, and that there is not enough in Armour to make any difference, even if it were active. Recent Activity a.. 11New Members Visit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. Health Asthma Triggers How you can identify them. McEnroe on Join him for the 10 Day Challenge. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Gracia, You wrote: > > Chuck, dontchya think that if something is there then it must serve some > purpose, even if we don't know what it is? Not if it is deiodization by product. We make plenty of T2 already from the T3 we use. If there was some great need to be met, then our systems would find a way to slow down the deiodization and elimination processes. It's waste! This is like saying we need to consume lots of urea and creatinine, because our kidneys contain them. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 it's just waste? T1, T0, T7 too? I just think of all the instances when docs are wrong, like saying women without a uterus don't need progesterone. or we need very little iodine and it's only used in minute amounts by the thyroid gland. Gracia Gracia, You wrote: > > Chuck, dontchya think that if something is there then it must serve some > purpose, even if we don't know what it is? Not if it is deiodization by product. We make plenty of T2 already from the T3 we use. If there was some great need to be met, then our systems would find a way to slow down the deiodization and elimination processes. It's waste! This is like saying we need to consume lots of urea and creatinine, because our kidneys contain them. Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Some things are there as the result of necessary activities and the best thing we can do is eliminate them. > > Re: T2 > <hypothyroidism/message/39053;_ylc=X3oDMTJxY2o1Mmh\ qBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMzkwNTMEc2V\ jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjk1NTI4Nw--> > > > > Posted by: " Gracia " circe@... > <mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20T2> graciabee > <graciabee> > > > Sun Jun 8, 2008 10:18 am (PDT) > > > Chuck, dontchya think that if something is there then it must serve > some purpose, even if we don't know what it is? > Gracia > > Sheila, > > How does it help people to tell them something which is not true? > > It is clearly your opinion that and Shames are correct in their > claims that the T2 and T1 in Armour make a big difference, even to being > miraculously curative, and that the authors of the Patient Advocacy > Group Response to the BTA agree with that opinion. However, unless there > is a test or a study, using reviewed methodology and equipment, to > confirm these claims, it is just a chain of opinion. > > I showed you several recent studies that concluded the opposite, that T2 > is only active in two minor areas, and that there is not enough in > Armour to make any difference, even if it were active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 I believe Armour contains at least trace amounts of T1 and T2. But they serve no known useful purpose AFAIK. > > Posted by: " AthleticItaliano@... " > <athleticitaliano> > > > Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:01 am (PDT) > > Are there are any T2 products on the market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 As I understand it T2 helps with metabolism. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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