kimchi

[Guest guest]

Tim wrote:

>

> Many of the recipes i read, had contradicting information, some asked

> you to salt the korean cabbage, and leave it for 6 hours, others tell

> you to put it in the brine and leave it overnight, others for 3-6 days.

> When does the fermentation process actually occur? During the soaking

> in the brine period, refrigerator, kept in an (airtight/non-airtight?)

> container after the soaking?

Basically the whole prep process is:

1. To make sure the cabbage is clean (don't want dirt bacteria or parasites).

2. To draw some of the water out of the leaves to make crispier kimchi.

You can brine it several ways: they all work. Some people just

layer the cabbage with salt and let it sit for a few hours,

then rinse it.

The fermentation process happens after you let it sit in

a weaker brine. How long you let it sit depends on how

sour you want your kimchi, and the room temp. The main

purpose for the brine during fermenting is to prevent

mold: if the cabbage is exposed to the air directly it

grows mold. The Koreans alternatively cover the kimchi

with very salty cabbage leaves (salt inhibits mold) or

a paste of salt and chili.

There is a writup in the files section that goes into

more detail. With pictures and everything!

However, if you want good GUT bacteria I'd recommend

kefir beer. It works better as a probiotic for

many people, including me. Kimchi is great too,

but I think part of what makes kimchi so great is

not necessarily just the bacteria, but the enzymes

and antibiotics those bacteria produce (plus the

highly digestive effect of cayenne, garlic, and

ginger). Kefir beer is in the writups section too.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>I made my first batch about a month ago, and although it tasted good,

>it went soft/mushy within the first couple of days. ...

>... I put in a little kefir-whey as a starter ...

Well, that would be it, then.

Try again, but without the kefir whey. The cabbage should introduce the

required bacteria. Salt, plus exclusion of oxygen (air) should do the

trick of inhibiting the bad guys so that the good guys can get going.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I put in a little kefir-whey as

>a starter just to be sure that it had enough lactobacilli. It got sour

>and fizzy, and also limp and mushy. What went wrong?

>

>

The kefir whey.

--s

[Guest guest]

I put in a little kefir-whey as

>a starter just to be sure that it had enough lactobacilli. It got sour

>and fizzy, and also limp and mushy. What went wrong?

>

>

The kefir whey.

It seems people think it was the kefir whey that made it limp and mushy. Is

it the whey from kefir specifically? I always use whey (from drained

yogurt) in my ferments (including kimchi and saurekraut) and have never had

that problem.

~

[Guest guest]

claire beaumont wrote:

>I put in a little kefir-whey as

>

>

>>a starter just to be sure that it had enough lactobacilli. It got sour

>>and fizzy, and also limp and mushy. What went wrong?

>>

>>

>>

>>

>The kefir whey.

>

>It seems people think it was the kefir whey that made it limp and mushy.

>

Well, when the discussion comes up and several people compare

recipe/procedures, the outstanding difference is usually the kefir

whey. I've made it with and without myself. Kefir whey makes it mush.

I've even had softer vegetables completely dissolve. The stuff I've

made without inoculant is invariably crisper.

>Is

>it the whey from kefir specifically? I always use whey (from drained

>yogurt) in my ferments (including kimchi and saurekraut) and have never had

>that problem.

>

>

>

No one has ever mentioned yogurt whey, so it might be the kefir whey

specifically. Personally, I stopped using inoculant and just let the

stuff do its own stuff.

--s

[Guest guest]

claire beaumont wrote:

>It seems people think it was the kefir whey that made it limp and mushy. Is

>it the whey from kefir specifically? I always use whey (from drained

>yogurt) in my ferments (including kimchi and saurekraut) and have never had

>that problem.

Yes. The " problem " isn't whey itself, but the mix of bacteria in kefir.

Some of them can eat the cellulose itself, which makes the vegetable go

soft and mushy (and icky, IMHO). Yoghurt whey would not have these

bacteria.

Either way, good cabbage shouldn't need an inoculation, because it

carries with it enough bacteria to get a ferment going. Adding an

inoculant in fact may produce a product of lesser flavour than the " real

thing " , because you would be tipping the balance in favour of the

species in the inoculant.

Kimchi and kraut are not just Lactobacillus spp. fermentations; they

generally start out with Leuconostoc spp. which quickly get the acid

levels up (both lactic and acetic acid), then the Lactobacillus spp.,

and others, get in there. Also, there is an interplay between different

species and strains of each bacteria. Dumping in a whole lot of one or

two Lactobacillus spp. might make the ferment miss out on this, and thus

some of the complex flavours might never be created.

Having said that, I tend to use a little juice from a kraut or kimchi

ferment to start a salsa or mashed sweet potato ferment, just in case

there isn't enough there already. But then, my last salsa started really

strongly within a day, with no added culture.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much for all the detailed information Ross. You are a wealth of

knowledge. I love to know the science behind it all. I am sufficiently

inspired to get my next kraut going without whey, even though I have never

had a problem with it before. I am a fan of letting things happen

naturally. The ingredients ready to go for my next kimchi are going to be

bok choy and turnips primarily, no cabbage. I'll just try your idea of

using juice from the last batch, but my " juice " does have the added whey.

Thanks again.

~

Ross McKay wrote:

Kimchi and kraut are not just Lactobacillus spp. fermentations; they

generally start out with Leuconostoc spp. which quickly get the acid

levels up (both lactic and acetic acid), then the Lactobacillus spp.,

and others, get in there. Also, there is an interplay between different

species and strains of each bacteria. Dumping in a whole lot of one or

two Lactobacillus spp. might make the ferment miss out on this, and thus

some of the complex flavours might never be created.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the replies. I will omit the kefir-whey next time... I was

worried that the store-bought produce would not ferment fast enough

(had botulism fears drilled into me by well-meaning family) and did

that to " be sure. " I think I am brave enough to let it go without

inoculant, especially if it means crisper veggies. Yes, I am a slave

to my palate, hehe. Interesting about the kefir organisms eating the

cellulose, I wonder which ones?

>

> Yes. The " problem " isn't whey itself, but the mix of bacteria in kefir.

> Some of them can eat the cellulose itself, .....

[Guest guest]

claire beaumont wrote:

>Thanks so much for all the detailed information Ross. You are a wealth of

>knowledge.

It's easy to make it look that way with an Internet connection and a

couple of books but the reality is quite different :/

>I love to know the science behind it all.

Google is your friend. There is a lot of very good information out there

on the science of it, and some of it in quite plain speak that the likes

of you and I can understand. Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.splammo.net/foodapplmicro/applkraut.html

http://www.bottlebiology.org/investigations/kimchee_main.html

>I am sufficiently

>inspired to get my next kraut going without whey, even though I have never

>had a problem with it before. I am a fan of letting things happen

>naturally. The ingredients ready to go for my next kimchi are going to be

>bok choy and turnips primarily, no cabbage. I'll just try your idea of

>using juice from the last batch, but my " juice " does have the added whey.

If you do that, you will probably carry over the bacteria that make it

mushy. However, it will at least leave you assured of a ferment

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

....about the kefir-whey..

I agree with everyone as far as the mush factor being caused by the kefir

whey.

I would like to add that if you're ever going for a much quicker version of

sauerkraut that would actually be more

appropriately called Kefirkraut, then the addition of some kefir whey will

speed up the process considerably and allow for the use of less salt. It

ferments for a couple days at room temp to get started, then finishes in the

fridge for another few days. It's very good as long as it goes into the

fridge soon after it gets going.

(Hi Ross, brew any tasty beverages lately?)

Take Care,

Beau

On 2/4/06, Ross McKay <rosko@...> wrote:

> claire beaumont wrote:

>

> >Thanks so much for all the detailed information Ross. You are a wealth

> of

> >knowledge.

>

> It's easy to make it look that way with an Internet connection and a

> couple of books but the reality is quite different :/

>

> >I love to know the science behind it all.

>

> Google is your friend. There is a lot of very good information out there

> on the science of it, and some of it in quite plain speak that the likes

> of you and I can understand. Here's a couple of examples:

>

> http://www.splammo.net/foodapplmicro/applkraut.html

> http://www.bottlebiology.org/investigations/kimchee_main.html

>

> >I am sufficiently

> >inspired to get my next kraut going without whey, even though I have

> never

> >had a problem with it before. I am a fan of letting things happen

> >naturally. The ingredients ready to go for my next kimchi are going to

> be

> >bok choy and turnips primarily, no cabbage. I'll just try your idea of

> >using juice from the last batch, but my " juice " does have the added whey.

>

> If you do that, you will probably carry over the bacteria that make it

> mushy. However, it will at least leave you assured of a ferment

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> " Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

> - The Wee Book of Calvin

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mashed sweet potatoe ferment sounds wonderful. Can

you give a recipe?

Thanks in advance,

DeAnn

--- Ross McKay <rosko@...> wrote:

> claire beaumont wrote:

>

> >It seems people think it was the kefir whey that

> made it limp and mushy. Is

> >it the whey from kefir specifically? I always use

> whey (from drained

> >yogurt) in my ferments (including kimchi and

> saurekraut) and have never had

> >that problem.

>

> Yes. The " problem " isn't whey itself, but the mix of

> bacteria in kefir.

> Some of them can eat the cellulose itself, which

> makes the vegetable go

> soft and mushy (and icky, IMHO). Yoghurt whey would

> not have these

> bacteria.

>

> Either way, good cabbage shouldn't need an

> inoculation, because it

> carries with it enough bacteria to get a ferment

> going. Adding an

> inoculant in fact may produce a product of lesser

> flavour than the " real

> thing " , because you would be tipping the balance in

> favour of the

> species in the inoculant.

>

> Kimchi and kraut are not just Lactobacillus spp.

> fermentations; they

> generally start out with Leuconostoc spp. which

> quickly get the acid

> levels up (both lactic and acetic acid), then the

> Lactobacillus spp.,

> and others, get in there. Also, there is an

> interplay between different

> species and strains of each bacteria. Dumping in a

> whole lot of one or

> two Lactobacillus spp. might make the ferment miss

> out on this, and thus

> some of the complex flavours might never be created.

>

> Having said that, I tend to use a little juice from

> a kraut or kimchi

> ferment to start a salsa or mashed sweet potato

> ferment, just in case

> there isn't enough there already. But then, my last

> salsa started really

> strongly within a day, with no added culture.

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> " Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn "

> - The Wee Book of Calvin

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Beau Barrett wrote:

>...

>(Hi Ross, brew any tasty beverages lately?)

No mate, not much on the go lately on that front. Unless you count the

ginger beer, and continuous lots of kefir

How are you going with your lot?

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" There is more to life than simply increasing its speed. " - Mahatma Gandhi

[Guest guest]

Same here, just the Kefir and some tasty Kefired Grape Juice... Though I'm

planning to try a small lot of honeywine/mead fermented with some converted

milk Kefir grains in the next week or so..

What kind of ginger beer recipe are you using?

Beau

On 2/5/06, Ross McKay <rosko@...> wrote:

>

> Beau Barrett wrote:

>

> >...

> >(Hi Ross, brew any tasty beverages lately?)

>

> No mate, not much on the go lately on that front. Unless you count the

> ginger beer, and continuous lots of kefir

>

> How are you going with your lot?

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> " There is more to life than simply increasing its speed. " - Mahatma Gandhi

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Thanks for the replies. I will omit the kefir-whey next time... I was

> worried that the store-bought produce would not ferment fast enough

> (had botulism fears drilled into me by well-meaning family)

Me too! I did some reading on botulism though, and

it mainly happens in a few specific conditions:

1. The food has no carbohydrate (meat/fat only) or

2. The food has been mostly sterilized (cooked,

but not pressure-cooked, or something like garlic cloves,

which don't carry many bacteria).

If those two conditions are not met, the botulism gets

wiped out by hardier bacteria, like lactobacilli, which

create an acidic environment they can't survive.

A bit of salt and acid really pushes the ferment that

direction too.

It's also helpful to remember that even the CDC is

convinced that the nasty bacteria do not survive

in acidic environments. (there is ONE e-coli that

can, but even it doesn't survive kimchi).

And lactobacilli are really, really ubiquitous.

You can't NOT get them in your batch, unless you

use a lot of bleach (which is what beer-makers

do, because lactobacilli are considered bad

in beer unless you are making Lambic Ale). Beer

is made with ingredients that have been BOILED

but they still get LAB in them, from the bottles

or from the air.

But to get *good tasting* LAB, a bit from your

last great batch of kimchi works great. Otherwise

" trust the cabbage " ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Beau Barrett wrote:

> Same here, just the Kefir and some tasty Kefired Grape Juice... Though I'm

>planning to try a small lot of honeywine/mead fermented with some converted

>milk Kefir grains in the next week or so..

Sounds fun. Amazing just how handy those kefir grains are. They can be

turned to so many uses, like fermenting non-milk drinks, making

quick-and-dirty sourdough starters, turning cabbage into a sour mushy

mess...

> What kind of ginger beer recipe are you using?

I have a really simple recipe; makes 10 litres.

100-300g ginger root, peeled and chopped finely (I use a food processor)

zest of a lemon

juice of said lemon

2 tsp cream of tartar

500g sugar

water to 10L

I simmer the ginger, lemon zest and sugar in about 1.5L water for 10

minutes or so, then add it, the lemon juice, cream of tartar and water

to the fermenter. (I use an old PET water bottle, but a food-grade

bucket will do, or a large stainless-steel pot; don't use copper or

aluminium)

Then I either pop in a few kefir grains, or add some rehydrated bread

yeast or beer yeast. With yeast, it should be fermenting well in a few

hours, with kefir grains it takes somewhat longer. Let it start bubbling

well (lots of little bubbles rising in the fermenter).

Siphon into PET bottles and screw the lids on. When the bottles are hard

(not just firm), whack them into the fridge and drink when cool. With a

yeast ferment, this generally only takes 8 hours; with a kefir grain

ferment, it can take a couple of days before the bottles are properly

carbonated.

You might want to use more sugar for a sweeter drink. I don't like it

too sweet.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" In wine there is wisdom,

In beer there is strength,

In water there is bacteria. " - German proverb

[Guest guest]

What is your recipe for quick-and-dirty sourdough starters?

robbie22@...

Re: Re: Kimchi

Beau Barrett wrote:

> Same here, just the Kefir and some tasty Kefired Grape Juice... Though I'm

>planning to try a small lot of honeywine/mead fermented with some converted

>milk Kefir grains in the next week or so..

Sounds fun. Amazing just how handy those kefir grains are. They can be

turned to so many uses, like fermenting non-milk drinks, making

quick-and-dirty sourdough starters, turning cabbage into a sour mushy

mess...

> What kind of ginger beer recipe are you using?

I have a really simple recipe; makes 10 litres.

100-300g ginger root, peeled and chopped finely (I use a food processor)

zest of a lemon

juice of said lemon

2 tsp cream of tartar

500g sugar

water to 10L

I simmer the ginger, lemon zest and sugar in about 1.5L water for 10

minutes or so, then add it, the lemon juice, cream of tartar and water

to the fermenter. (I use an old PET water bottle, but a food-grade

bucket will do, or a large stainless-steel pot; don't use copper or

aluminium)

Then I either pop in a few kefir grains, or add some rehydrated bread

yeast or beer yeast. With yeast, it should be fermenting well in a few

hours, with kefir grains it takes somewhat longer. Let it start bubbling

well (lots of little bubbles rising in the fermenter).

Siphon into PET bottles and screw the lids on. When the bottles are hard

(not just firm), whack them into the fridge and drink when cool. With a

yeast ferment, this generally only takes 8 hours; with a kefir grain

ferment, it can take a couple of days before the bottles are properly

carbonated.

You might want to use more sugar for a sweeter drink. I don't like it

too sweet.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" In wine there is wisdom,

In beer there is strength,

In water there is bacteria. " - German proverb

[Guest guest]

Next time,it maybe better with the vegetable dried halfday or so under

the sun. And the salt should be about 3% of its weight.

You may want to start with the main vegetables and salt only.

After relishing 2,3 days you can add the rest.

Cold and slower fermentation may make the stuff taste better as well as

nutrition.

Cheers,

Isao

[Guest guest]

Hi,.

Next time you may want to dry thoued vegetables under the sun for

half day or so.

You can add 1/2 teaspoon of sugar for the controler.

Make sure salt is 2.5% up of weight of contents.

You may want to add 1/2 grated apple.

Kelp helps a lot not for only taste but also nutritious supply.

Sea salt or Rock salt is prefferable.

You may add 1 chop of wood charcoal/wood piece to stabilize the

fermentation.

and next time on you can use it for the carrier/nest of microbe.

You wo'nt need starter.

Isao

[Guest guest]

Check out Heidi's recipe in the 'files' section. It's

illustrated nicely, and is a great place to start.

I've made it a couple of times, with my own choices

for veggies.

I'd bought some commercial kimchi and didn't like it.

So I made a batch of my own, adding the commercial

stuff (which wasn't preserved) chopped up, with it's

juice. The whole thing turned out great, and I think

the established bacteria in the commercial stuff got

it off to a good start, Now I save the juice from my

previous batch to add to the next one, though it's

probably not really necessary if you use some form of

cabbage.

DeAnn

--- kefir_king <kefir_king@...> wrote:

> I would appreciate if there is a definiative recipe

> for Kimchi perhaps

> one of you experts can post..

> many thanks

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

While you're at it, I'd like the perfect milkshake, the one true shepherd's pie

and the keys to the kingdom too please.

Just joking. There's a dandy recipe by Heidi in the files section.

-------------- Original message --------------

From: " kefir_king " <kefir_king@...>

I would appreciate if there is a definiative recipe for Kimchi perhaps

one of you experts can post..

many thanks

[Guest guest]

On 2/21/06, kefir_king <kefir_king@...> wrote:

> I would appreciate if there is a definiative recipe for Kimchi perhaps

> one of you experts can post..

> many thanks

Probably the greatest beauty of kimchi is that there is nothing at all

like a definitive recipe!

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

I have done my own saurkraut...one thing I have to admit, I am not

particularly keen on the use of salt...that is why I shy away from miso

products (10% salt)..and I see the Kimchi recipe (Heidie's) has about

the same level of salt.

My understanding is that the salt inhibits bad bacteria from growing

and allows the good bacteria to get going...giving them a break, so to

speak..

I have seen receipes using seaweed , and there are also suggestions of

using Kefir Whey to start the fermentation process...has anyone

attempted to use Kefir whey to make Saurkraut or Kimchi?

Many thanks

> > I would appreciate if there is a definiative recipe for Kimchi

perhaps

> > one of you experts can post..

> > many thanks

>

> Probably the greatest beauty of kimchi is that there is nothing at all

> like a definitive recipe!

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

[Guest guest]

kefir_king wrote:

> My understanding is that the salt inhibits bad bacteria from growing

> and allows the good bacteria to get going...giving them a break, so to

> speak..

> I have seen receipes using seaweed , and there are also suggestions of

> using Kefir Whey to start the fermentation process...has anyone

> attempted to use Kefir whey to make Saurkraut or Kimchi?

Many people have used whey. But, it tends to make

for mushy kraut or kimchi, so it's probably not

the best. Kefir whey does have some

good probiotic benefits, even in kimchi,

but I prefer to get my kefir benefits in kefir beer.

Kimchi juice is a better innoculant for kimchi, I think.

Usually there is plenty of LAB in the cabbage though,

so that's not the defining issue.

What does help is to add something ACIDIC to get

the PH down quickly. LAB tolerate acid, which is why

they produce it probably: they can withstand

acid but their competitors can't. Vinegar works,

or, add more sour kimchi/kraut juice! Vinegar

keeps down mold too.

I think with the right amount of acid you

wouldn't need much salt. I do like salt though.

I add enough so the mix " tastes good " .

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

are you the famous Heidi (aka kimchi recipe)?

Just curious...does kimchi end up with all this salt (10%) sounds

like alot..I tried to do saurkraut with 2.5% salt solution...it

worked...ok it was not really saurkraut..it was more like fermented

red cabbage ( i didnt do all the pounding etc..just added the salt

solution to the shredded cabage and left it for few weeks..it did

ferment at 2.5% salt solution...so why does kimchi need 10%

salt...thanks

>

> > My understanding is that the salt inhibits bad bacteria from

growing

> > and allows the good bacteria to get going...giving them a break,

so to

> > speak..

> > I have seen receipes using seaweed , and there are also

suggestions of

> > using Kefir Whey to start the fermentation process...has anyone

> > attempted to use Kefir whey to make Saurkraut or Kimchi?

>

> Many people have used whey. But, it tends to make

> for mushy kraut or kimchi, so it's probably not

> the best. Kefir whey does have some

> good probiotic benefits, even in kimchi,

> but I prefer to get my kefir benefits in kefir beer.

> Kimchi juice is a better innoculant for kimchi, I think.

> Usually there is plenty of LAB in the cabbage though,

> so that's not the defining issue.

>

> What does help is to add something ACIDIC to get

> the PH down quickly. LAB tolerate acid, which is why

> they produce it probably: they can withstand

> acid but their competitors can't. Vinegar works,

> or, add more sour kimchi/kraut juice! Vinegar

> keeps down mold too.

>

> I think with the right amount of acid you

> wouldn't need much salt. I do like salt though.

> I add enough so the mix " tastes good " .

>

> -- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>While you're at it, I'd like the perfect milkshake, the one true shepherd's pie

and the keys to the kingdom too please.

>Just joking. There's a dandy recipe by Heidi in the files section.

Ha ha! but just in case you're looking for a really good recipe for the perfect

milkshake. I make them all the time :-)

Fruit Smoothies

-------------------

2 parts finished kefir (home-made of course)

1 part fruit*

Blend in the blender and enjoy

*Fruit suggestions (that I have tried) include: fresh banana, mango, peaches,

strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, or canned mandarines or cranberries.

and the K9's