Guest guest Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 this is not true, but this might be what most docs think. I will get clarification on this. Gracia Gracia, You wrote: > > what? prednisone is not recommended.... It was just a way of expressing equivalence for people familiar with prednisone. What was tested was cortisol. Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Gracia, You wrote: > > this is not true, but this might be what most docs think. I will get > clarification on this. About what I wrote: > >> It was just a way of expressing equivalence for people familiar with >> prednisone. What was tested was cortisol. Which part is untrue? It's what the published paper SAID. They looked at long-term low-dose glucocorticoids (cortisol, oral and inhaled), equivalent in dose to 5 mg per day of prednisone. Since prednisone is five times as potent as cortisol, that means they actually used an average of 25 mg of cortisol per day or an equivalent mix of glucocorticoids. I scaled it the wrong way last time, but 25 mg per day is still about what you take. It's still a low dose, a physiologic one. Just read the paper. Here's the citation and abstract again: J. K. Saito, J. W. , R. D. Wasnich, and P. D. Ross, " Users of low-dose glucocorticoids have increased bone loss rates: A longitudinal study, " Calcified Tissue International 57, #2, 1995. Abstract Although high doses of glucocorticoids are believed to cause bone loss, the effects of low glucocorticoid doses are still controversial. Our study examined the effects of low-dose glucocorticoids on the rate of bone loss at three appendicular bone sites. The study population was a cohort of elderly Japanese-Americans, 1094 women and 1378 men. The women were all postmenopausal. At the baseline examination the mean age of the women was 64 years (range 45–81), and the mean age of the men was 68 years (range 61–82). Glucocorticoid users (19 women and 21 men) had used oral systemic or inhaled glucocorticoids on a regular schedule for more than 1 month (mean use was 2.1 years for the women and 1.9 years for the men). [Here's the part about dose] The most common dose was equivalent to 5 mg/day of prednisone; fewer than 15% of users had taken doses equivalent to 10 mg/day or more. [Here is what they measured] Changes in bone mass at the calcaneus, distal radius, and proximal radius were documented using bone densitometry at 1 to 2-year intervals over an 8-year period. The initial bone mass of the glucocorticoid users and controls was similar at the baseline examination. The subsequent loss rates among females during glucocorticoid use, however, were approximately double that of the controls. Among males, bone loss rates during glucocorticoid use were 2–3 times that of controls for the calcaneus and radius sites. The differences between glucocorticoid users and controls persisted after adjusting for confounding variables such as age and use of thiazides and estrogens. We conclude that users of low-dose glucocorticoids have increased rates of bone loss at appendicular sites among both elderly women and men. So, which part is not true, the 1,094 women and 1,378 men, the dosage equivalence to low dose prednisone, the fact that they used cortisol, or the fact that they measured bone loss? Most of the studies I could quickly round up about side effects of low dose corticosteroids, involve inhalers for asthma patients. My son has been on these inhalers as part of his post operative lung treatments. These studies show a number of effects, but particularly bone loss for doses under 1 mg per day. That is probably another prednisone equivalent, although they use a number of different corticoids in those inhalers. Most of these papers are in full text from Medline. Am. J. Respir. Crit. Care Med., Volume 157, Number 3, March 1998, S1-S53, " Efficacy and Safety of Inhaled Corticosteroids: New Developments, " PETER J. BARNES, SØREN PEDERSEN, and WILLIAM W. BUSSE http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/157/3/S1?ijkey=39d2f9654f4ffece7f\ 07c918c434d4f8a0ab3d99 & keytype2=tf_ipsecsha , P. J.. 1995. Inhaled glucocorticoids for asthma. N. Engl. J. Med. 332: 868-875. , P. J., and S. Pedersen. 1993. Efficacy and safety of inhaled steroids in asthma. Am. Rev. Respir. Dis. 148: S1-S26 . Reid, I. R.. 1989. Pathogenesis and treatment of steroid osteoporosis. Clin. Endocrinol. 30: 83-103. , R.. 1990. Corticosteroids and osteoporosis. Thorax 45: 573-575. Greenberger, P. A., R. W. Hendrix, R. , and J. S. Chmiel. 1982. Bone studies in patients on prolonged systemic corticosteroid therapy for asthma. Clin. Allergy 12: 363-368. Adinoff, A. D., and J. R. Hollister. 1983. Steroid-induced fracture and bone loss in patients with asthma. N. Engl. J. Med. 309: 265-268. Dykman, T. R., O. S. Gluck, W. A. , T. J. Hahn, and B. H. Hahn. 1985. Evaluation of factors associated with glucocorticoid- induced osteopenia in patients with rheumatoid diseases. Arth. Rheum. 28: 361-368. Turpeinen, M., and R. Sorva. 1995. Net production of type I collagen in children with asthma inhaling budesonide (abstract). Am. J. Respir. Crit. Care Med. 151: A149 . Konig, P., L. Hillman, C. Cervantes, C. Levine, C. Maloney, B. s, L. , and S. . 1993. Bone metabolism in children with asthma treated with inhaled beclomethasone dipropionate. J. Pediatr. 122: 219-226. Pedersen, S., and F. Hargreaves, editors. 1989. Safety of Inhaled Corticosteroids. Excerpta Medica, Basel. 40-51. Wolthers, O. D., B. J. Riis, and S. Pedersen. 1993. Bone turnover in asthmatic children treated with oral prednisolone or inhaled budesonide. Pediatr. Pulmonol. 16: 341-346. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I will refrain from cross posting. Thanks. Also thanks for the continued support and the info in this post. Venizia > > ... By the way, can I get in trouble for > > forwarding this from NTH? I not sure of all the protocol. > > Usually, it is only a matter of netiquette to not lift excerpts or > forward entire posts (or identities) to other lists. For some lists I am > on, it is a strict rule, and they will kick you off for doing it. Cross > posting can be even worse, for then the list manager gets bothered with > bounced messages. I don't know what the rules are at NTH, but I would be > surprised if Ira Fine would care. If he had a rule, he probably would > have said something by now. I have seen relatively little cross posting > here, anyway. > > As for the details, I have given you peer reviewed studies that show > that less than physiologic doses, specifically 5 mg per day, DO cause > measurable side effects if taken long term. A month or less is still > probably not a problem. > > I would ask them for the same level of credibility. Ask them to cite > literature that confirms their assertions. All you have quoted from them > seems to be opinion. As far as I am concerned, everyone here is > perfectly entitled to trust the opinion of a non-professional over peer > reviewed research, but I think that could be risky. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Venezia, I found this discussion-pasting part of the bottom of the page-rest is found here http://boards.webmd.com/webx?THDX@@.897c8e79!thdchild=.897c8e79 Ideally, adrenal insufficiency should be corrected before thyroid hormone treatment begins. However, the treatment for adrenal insufficiency is the hormone cortisol (prescription hydrocortisone), a drug with serious and nasty side effects, and few doctors will prescribe adrenal hormones unless the deficiency is advanced; moreover, too much cortisol inhibits T4 to T3 conversion (a process by which the thyroid prohormone T4 is converted into the metabolically active thyroid hormone T3), so it's a catch-22 for hypos with low adrenals. One approach is to have adrenal function tested and if necessary, corrected medically prior to starting thyroid hormone (however, this is rarely done unless the adrenal problem is advanced enough to......... _____ From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ] On Behalf Of venizia1948 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:31 PM hypothyroidism Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck Chuck, I mentioned to him that I had a high cortisol test 2 yrs prior. It was about 15 points above normal range. All he said was I didn't have adrenal problems. I do not understand how he would know that other than the overt symptoms you talk about. I have read that cortisol numbers can go high and then will go low before one has adrenal fatigue. Venizia > > ... So, because I had a hashi attack > > would that cause adrenal fatigue. I take armour and they say to make > > sure you do not have adrenal problems before taking it but my doctor > > never checked when I started it.... > > Your doctors probably looked for OVERT indications of adrenal failure. > What Gracia is talking about is so subtle, the tests won't detect it, > and there are no overt signs. A skeptic would question whether there is > really anything going on. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Dusty, Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I am wondering if the prescription hydrocortisone they are taking about is the same thing that Gracia and other on NTH use. Is cortef or isocort the same as prescription hydrocortisone or are these reduced dosages. People on NTH swear they are not noticing any side effects. The side effects can be scary. Venizia -- In hypothyroidism , " Dusty " <dusty@...> wrote: > > Venezia, I found this discussion-pasting part of the bottom of the page-rest > is found here > http://boards.webmd.com/webx?THDX@@.897c8e79!thdchild=.897c8e79 > > Ideally, adrenal insufficiency should be corrected before thyroid hormone > treatment begins. However, the treatment for adrenal insufficiency is the > hormone cortisol (prescription hydrocortisone), a drug with serious and > nasty side effects, and few doctors will prescribe adrenal hormones unless > the deficiency is advanced; moreover, too much cortisol inhibits T4 to T3 > conversion (a process by which the thyroid prohormone T4 is converted into > the metabolically active thyroid hormone T3), so it's a catch-22 for hypos > with low adrenals. > > One approach is to have adrenal function tested and if necessary, corrected > medically prior to starting thyroid hormone (however, this is rarely done > unless the adrenal problem is advanced enough to......... > > > > _____ > > From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ] > On Behalf Of venizia1948 > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:31 PM > hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck > > > > Chuck, > > I mentioned to him that I had a high cortisol test 2 yrs prior. It > was about 15 points above normal range. All he said was I didn't have > adrenal problems. I do not understand how he would know that other > than the overt symptoms you talk about. I have read that cortisol > numbers can go high and then will go low before one has adrenal fatigue. > > Venizia > > > > > ... So, because I had a hashi attack > > > would that cause adrenal fatigue. I take armour and they say to make > > > sure you do not have adrenal problems before taking it but my doctor > > > never checked when I started it.... > > > > Your doctors probably looked for OVERT indications of adrenal failure. > > What Gracia is talking about is so subtle, the tests won't detect it, > > and there are no overt signs. A skeptic would question whether there is > > really anything going on. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 welcome to the wacky world of which medical system are we dealing with. ppl who take cortef love it, but ppl who use allopathic medicine say it is scary. that is why Jefferies MD wrote his book Safe Uses of Cortisol. this is why there will be huge lawsuits one day. gracia Dusty, Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I am wondering if the prescription hydrocortisone they are taking about is the same thing that Gracia and other on NTH use. Is cortef or isocort the same as prescription hydrocortisone or are these reduced dosages. People on NTH swear they are not noticing any side effects. The side effects can be scary. Venizia -- Recent Activity a.. 14New Members Visit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Group to share and learn. Health Early Detection Know the symptoms of breast cancer. Best of Y! Groups Check it out and nominate your group to be featured. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Gracia, I think I am going to pick up that book so I know what I am talking about with my doctor when after I have that saliva test on the 19th. I am not disagreeing with you, I am trying to find out what is correct. Thanks, Venizia > > > welcome to the wacky world of which medical system are we dealing with. ppl who take cortef love it, but ppl who use allopathic medicine say it is scary. that is why Jefferies MD wrote his book Safe Uses of Cortisol. this is why there will be huge lawsuits one day. > gracia > > Dusty, > > Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I am wondering if the > prescription hydrocortisone they are taking about is the same thing > that Gracia and other on NTH use. Is cortef or isocort the same as > prescription hydrocortisone or are these reduced dosages. People on > NTH swear they are not noticing any side effects. The side effects > can be scary. > > Venizia > > -- > Recent Activity > a.. 14New Members > Visit Your Group > Meditation and > Lovingkindness > > A Group > > to share and learn. > > Health > Early Detection > > Know the symptoms > > of breast cancer. > > Best of Y! Groups > Check it out > > and nominate your > > group to be featured. > . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 why don't you ask janie if she minds if you cross post? From: venizia1948 Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:49 AM hypothyroidism Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck I will refrain from cross posting. Thanks. Also thanks for the continued support and the info in this post. Venizia > > ... By the way, can I get in trouble for > > forwarding this from NTH? I not sure of all the protocol. > > Usually, it is only a matter of netiquette to not lift excerpts or > forward entire posts (or identities) to other lists. For some lists I am > on, it is a strict rule, and they will kick you off for doing it. Cross > posting can be even worse, for then the list manager gets bothered with > bounced messages. I don't know what the rules are at NTH, but I would be > surprised if Ira Fine would care. If he had a rule, he probably would > have said something by now. I have seen relatively little cross posting > here, anyway. > > As for the details, I have given you peer reviewed studies that show > that less than physiologic doses, specifically 5 mg per day, DO cause > measurable side effects if taken long term. A month or less is still > probably not a problem. > > I would ask them for the same level of credibility. Ask them to cite > literature that confirms their assertions. All you have quoted from them > seems to be opinion. As far as I am concerned, everyone here is > perfectly entitled to trust the opinion of a non-professional over peer > reviewed research, but I think that could be risky. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 I did ask her. She never responded. Venizia -- In hypothyroidism , " nancie barnett " <deifspirit@...> wrote: > > why don't you ask janie if she minds if you cross post? > > > From: venizia1948 > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:49 AM > hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck > > > I will refrain from cross posting. Thanks. Also thanks for the > continued support and the info in this post. > > Venizia > > > > > ... By the way, can I get in trouble for > > > forwarding this from NTH? I not sure of all the protocol. > > > > Usually, it is only a matter of netiquette to not lift excerpts or > > forward entire posts (or identities) to other lists. For some lists > I am > > on, it is a strict rule, and they will kick you off for doing it. Cross > > posting can be even worse, for then the list manager gets bothered with > > bounced messages. I don't know what the rules are at NTH, but I > would be > > surprised if Ira Fine would care. If he had a rule, he probably would > > have said something by now. I have seen relatively little cross posting > > here, anyway. > > > > As for the details, I have given you peer reviewed studies that show > > that less than physiologic doses, specifically 5 mg per day, DO cause > > measurable side effects if taken long term. A month or less is still > > probably not a problem. > > > > I would ask them for the same level of credibility. Ask them to cite > > literature that confirms their assertions. All you have quoted from > them > > seems to be opinion. As far as I am concerned, everyone here is > > perfectly entitled to trust the opinion of a non-professional over peer > > reviewed research, but I think that could be risky. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 maybe she did not get it- I would ask her again- I have found that sometimes I have post twice [ or more] to get a response... nancie From: venizia1948 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:49 PM hypothyroidism Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck I did ask her. She never responded. Venizia -- In hypothyroidism , " nancie barnett " <deifspirit@...> wrote: > > why don't you ask janie if she minds if you cross post? > > > From: venizia1948 > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:49 AM > hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Cortisol/chuck > > > I will refrain from cross posting. Thanks. Also thanks for the > continued support and the info in this post. > > Venizia > > > > > ... By the way, can I get in trouble for > > > forwarding this from NTH? I not sure of all the protocol. > > > > Usually, it is only a matter of netiquette to not lift excerpts or > > forward entire posts (or identities) to other lists. For some lists > I am > > on, it is a strict rule, and they will kick you off for doing it. Cross > > posting can be even worse, for then the list manager gets bothered with > > bounced messages. I don't know what the rules are at NTH, but I > would be > > surprised if Ira Fine would care. If he had a rule, he probably would > > have said something by now. I have seen relatively little cross posting > > here, anyway. > > > > As for the details, I have given you peer reviewed studies that show > > that less than physiologic doses, specifically 5 mg per day, DO cause > > measurable side effects if taken long term. A month or less is still > > probably not a problem. > > > > I would ask them for the same level of credibility. Ask them to cite > > literature that confirms their assertions. All you have quoted from > them > > seems to be opinion. As far as I am concerned, everyone here is > > perfectly entitled to trust the opinion of a non-professional over peer > > reviewed research, but I think that could be risky. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.