Re: I need some guidance; try our FAQ

August 5, 2006

HI Chuck,

I have hashimotos and I take 4 eco thryo a day (dried freezed thyroid tissue)

along with 4 " rev it up " a day (all spaced out). Rev it.. is a slow metabolizer

synthesizer. It's ingredients are:

L-Tyrosine

Fatty acids

choline Bitartrate

Insotil

Pangamic Acid

PABA

Adrenal Extract

Lipoic Acid

Hypothalamus

Anterior Pituitary

Kelp

Boron

And ofcourse a whole bunch of vitamins that I don't need to name.

Like I said....the eco thyro is straight up dried freezed thyroid tissue.

I have always considered this " alternative " treatment, compared to the

synthroid I used to take, would you not consider this an alternative treatment?

Thanks. -jessica

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

FAQ. If you are not new to the list, you might want to delete now.

I was surprised to note the other day that we now have over 2,000 on

this discussion list. Many must be new, judging by the usual flood of

questions. The most common is about alternative medications. There

aren't any. If you have no thyroid function, nothing will replace your

thyroid hormones except hormone replacement medication. That means a

daily medication for the rest of your life.

However, if you still have partial function, you might benefit from

supplements or at least from avoiding goitrogens in foods that attack

the thyroid. These are outlined below in what substitutes for the list's

FAQ message. So, for all the new folks to the list, welcome aboard.

The following is a collection of old posts (some from other lists) that

address many of the questions people seem to ask when first joining the

list. This is not intended to silence your questions; it should just

give them some context while I hope it provides you with preliminary

answers. It includes some links to standard background information. I

would invite those with " alternative " views to post the web sites for

that information as well.

Most of us got here from one of four causes: (1) an autoimmune attack on

the thyroid gland and its hormones, a condition called Hashimoto's

thyroiditis; (2) surgical removal or radioactive destruction of the

thyroid gland for a medical reason such as goiter or cancer; (3) an

idiopathic (don't know what causes it) familial pattern, in which the

thyroid simply stops working; or (4) an endocrine or protein binding

malfunction involving other hormones, that results in some sort of

imbalance or conversion insufficiency.

You can find the basics in the following links. These sites often have

an ax to grind and may not agree on the best courses of action. However,

they tend to have a lot of useful information that is made accessible to

people new to the subject.

Symptoms:

http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/symptoms.asp .

How the thyroid works and what can go wrong:

http://www.btf-thyroid.org/index.htm .

Summary of treatments, although with lots of editorial views:

http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroiddrugstreatments/ .

Good backgrounds and links, although pushing Armour pretty exclusively:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/causes-of-hypo/

http://www.geocities.com/thyroide/

If you have partial thyroid function, you might benefit from iodine

supplementation. I don't personally endorse these products, but others

on the list swear by them.

http://www.optimox.com

We share a common medical condition, eventually affecting up to about

10% of all women, although a lesser percentage of men. If you are in one

of the first three categories, clearly indicated as hypothyroid by

tests, your doctor probably gave you a prescription for a synthetic T4

replacement and told you to come back in 4-8 weeks for more testing.

That process is called titration.

If your doctor is conservative (the 8-week variety), he probably gave

you a low starting dose, in which case you won't notice much relief for

months, when the dosage finally gets close to optimum. In between, you

may have temporary improvement after each dosage increase that will fade

as your system adjusts. Eventually, you are likely to feel normal again,

that is, if you are one of the lucky majority. Many on the list, though,

are here because they weren't one of the lucky ones.

If your doctor is cautious, allowing your levels to stabilize and

checking the side effects before increasing the dose, you might want to

show up a little early. The recommended interval is a minimum of six

weeks. However, if you are young and otherwise healthy, there is no

reason not to push that a bit. The sooner you get to full replacement

and get it stabilized, the sooner you feel normal again. The incremental

increases only help briefly and then seem to fall off until the next

increase.

You will probably be on the medication for the rest of your life. The

few cases of restored thyroid function I have read about sound like mild

partial impairment which stops. Hashimoto's can sometimes do that, as

can endocrine malfunctions. Most of the time, everyone that reaches the

full replacement dose seems to stay there.

Autoimmune conditions can stop and go into either temporary or longer

lasting remission. However, the more usual progression is cyclic

recurrence, once they have been triggered. In the case of the thyroid,

this usually results in permanent loss of function. Other systems are

sometimes more resilient. Nobody knows the cause for the immune system

to attack the body it is supposed to protect, although this is a very

active field of research today.

The big distinction of Hashimoto's from the other causes is that thyroid

function can go up and down again, alternating hyperthyroid with

hypothyroid under the same dosage, until the gland is finally,

permanently destroyed. This means the gland stops functioning entirely,

stops collecting iodine and producing the T4 and T3 from it that you

need. There is also a small reduction in organ size, the only sort of

weight loss associated with hypoT. To me a goiter sounds worse,

because it results in disfigurement.

Once you get your dosage stabilized, you should feel as well as ever,

with a couple of caveats. For example, I've noticed an intolerance to

heavy exercise, which seems to use up the T3 faster than usual. My

system can't keep up for more than about three hours of work, then I

become a vegetable for a short period. Several of us on the list call

this " hitting the wall. " It is much like what a marathoner runs into

when the liver's supply of glucose runs out. Either that or I've just

become lazy with age.

Really, you can still exercise, but you have to pace yourself. Where

before you could " party all night " and pay the piper later, now you tend

to pay up front.

Body temperature is an especially good indicator of metabolism. HypoT

folks feel cold because they are cold. Other symptoms can be important

indicators, and you should memorize the list of both hypo-T and hyper-T

symptoms, just in case. However, if you expect a comment with more

content than " That's too bad, " we would also like to see your blood test

results. These should include the reference ranges for each test as

reported by your lab.

Don't be shy about sharing this information. Most of us have done these

tests over and over for years. They don't indicate your IQ or anything

really personal. They just give clues on what is causing your condition.

Also, these are YOUR test results. You have a right to ask for a copy

from your doctor.

I tend to ask for a test myself at least every six months, but I am

paranoid about my health. A year would work if you had no symptoms for a

long time. My mother went several years before checking her dosage. It

nearly killed her once, when they changed the formulation of Synthroid

and didn't tell the doctors.

A summary of the various tests you may be asked to take:

http://vitamvas.tripod.com/lab.html

For most of us, increasing the available T4 by taking a synthetic

replacement adequately supports the FT3 level. If it doesn't, you could

have poor conversion from T4 to T3. Or, you could have excessive binding

of both T4 and T3, so the free components are too low. Another possible

problem is that antibodies are making your other tests invalid,

indicating within the normal range when they are actually outside.

One possible solution for all of these is to drive TSH lower than the

reference range, or to increase T4 to higher than its reference range.

You can do that with either more T4 or by adding T3 to the mix. Again,

the reference ranges are valid for initial screening and perhaps for

initial titration. After that, interpretations vary depending on the

physician, many of whom do not believe the published lab guidelines. Two

major professional groups have issued recommendations about LOWERING the

reference ranges for people on the medications.

We seem to agree there is a list of foods to avoid, especially if you

have at least some thyroid function left. This includes goitrogen foods:

http://www.ithyroid.com/goitrogens.htm .

I personally eat many of the goitrogens, particularly nuts and raw

broccoli, but I have no thyroid function left, nothing left to lose. I

still avoid soy, because it apparently goes after thyroxine in serum. I

have not noticed any effect from the other goitrogens, since I am on a

full replacement dose of thyroxine.

I also try to minimize consumption of fluoride. This is another bad

actor that is toxic to both an active thyroid gland and thyroid hormones

in the blood. Black tea is particularly rich in fluoride, so the only

tea I have any more is green tea, and that is pretty rare, coffee being

an essential nutrient, at least to me. Herbal teas are not a problem for

fluoride. The amount in city water supplies is a concern. Check with

your public water company.

Although some on the list recommend taking iodine supplements in

addition to the replacement medications, iodine is toxic if you get too

much, and it has especially bad effects for those with Hashimoto's. It

seems to stimulate the antibody attack. Levothyroxine (T4) IS an iodine

supplement with four iodine atoms in each molecule. I personally would

not take iodine (e.g. kelp) unless you have evidence of a deficiency.

That could be the case for someone with untreated symptoms, or someone

not taking hormone replacements, which, in fact, are a concentrated form

of iodine.

As to what TO eat, most of us are fighting weight problems. HypoT also

puts us at risk of high-cholesterol induced cardiac and stroke and type

II diabetes. Diet is probably where the widest range of controversy

lies. Many of us have tried the extremely low carbohydrate diets and

lost some weight. However, I found that after about 10 months, even the

extreme induction form of the diet no longer worked. I think my

metabolism had simply adapted. It just took longer than it takes to

adapt to a low fat diet.

OTOH, hypothyroidism seems to make us particularly susceptible to the

effects of high glycemic index foods. So, I still try to minimize sugars

and simple or refined starches along with saturated and especially trans

fats. We have had a couple of testimonials for coconut oil, but it did

absolutely nothing for me.

Some on the list will give you a long list of supplements they swear by.

I think some of us could stock a health food store with what is in their

medicine cabinets. However, some things seem to be on everyone's list.

The first is selenium, since it helps with T4-T3 conversion. As with

iodine, though, too much selenium is reputed to be toxic. Make sure you

aren't getting it from multiple sources.

Another supplement that is frequently mentioned is vitamin B-12. For me

it helps with energy level if taken or injected intermittently. Too

often, and I get jittery, can't sleep, and feel rather wiped out and

uncomfortable.

In summary, diet won't help much with the primary symptoms unless the

hormone levels are properly balanced. For most of us, that means getting

the dosage or combination of replacement hormones right. Once that is

fixed, the main concern is choosing a " healthy diet " that controls the

weight gain. However, we have lots of conflicting opinions on what that

means.

Calcium carbonate has been shown in several well reviewed tests to

interfere with T4 absorption when taken up to three hours after the T4.

However, the form of calcium in milk should not do this. It is not

carbonate. Iron is another nutrient with this interference capability.

Calcium carbonate is in a lot of other medications and supplements as a

binder. You should not take any food within an hour after or two hours

before your T4, longer for iron, calcium, or fiber.

Don't take these anywhere near the same time as your T4. Most of us take

the hormone first thing in the morning and other medications after

breakfast or in the evening. Fiber is not nearly as bad as calcium

carbonate or iron. These will affect absorption even after three hours.

I would also suggest waiting for the dosage to settle before starting a

low carb diet. That shuts down the intestines independent of thyroid

status. The two together could be a real problem. One final possibility

is that a lot of the non-dairy creamers have soy in them. Soy will also

interfere long after you take the Synthroid.

It is also possible that iodide added to salt could aggravate autoimmune

thyroiditis, actually making your T3 lower. However, this is usually a

slower, longer term effect. Another caution is that a gross excess of

iodide can burn the thyroid. Again, this is usually a longer term

effect, not something that would affect a selected afternoon and then go

away. It would also take a fairly large slug of iodide, more than is

usually available in table salt.

" Subclinical " means that a set of indicator symptoms are not confirmed

by chemical tests. Before T3 and T4 assays became widely available, the

main or only test used was TSH. Thus, at one time, subclinical meant

symptoms with a high normal, or slightly above normal, TSH. With other

tests and other protocols for each test, the accepted definition has

necessarily changed.

One major issue with a subclinical diagnosis is whether the tests you

had are reliable or relevant. Free T3 is the one that really controls

the symptoms, so a normal Total T4 or Total T3 test may not be

completely meaningful, particularly if conversion to T3 is messed up or

if too large a fraction of T3 is bound by albumin and globulin.

The other big issue is the effect of antibodies, which may or may not

change the other readings. If you had no antibodies detected, this is

less likely, unless you are in a very early stage of thyroid

deterioration. If so, a small supplementation in either or both T4 and

T3 might help with symptoms or their anticipated progression. Just watch

for hyperT symptoms. That would tell you to back off the dosage.

Again, welcome aboard, and I hope these comments help. If you object to

any of the " standard model " information I included, please concatenate

some rebuttal posts and web pages, and I'll formulate a two sided FAQ

message that we can post every so often for new members.

Chuck

jessica stanziale

---------------------------------

Groups are talking. We & acute;re listening. Check out the handy changes to

Groups.

August 6, 2006

,

You wrote:

>

> ...I have hashimotos and I take 4 eco thryo a day (dried freezed thyroid

> tissue) along with 4 " rev it up " a day (all spaced out). Rev it.. is a

> slow metabolizer synthesizer. It's ingredients are:

> L-Tyrosine

> Fatty acids

> choline Bitartrate

> Insotil

> Pangamic Acid

> PABA

> Adrenal Extract

> Lipoic Acid

> Hypothalamus

> Anterior Pituitary

> Kelp

> Boron

> And ofcourse a whole bunch of vitamins that I don't need to name.

> Like I said....the eco thyro is straight up dried freezed thyroid tissue.

> I have always considered this " alternative " treatment, compared to the

> synthroid I used to take, would you not consider this an alternative

> treatment?

Sadly, no. This cocktail (mainly the kelp) might temporarily help you

feel better, if you have SOME thyroid function left, which might be the

case with early Hashi's. However, if your thyroid output is

significantly degraded, the best this can do is speed up the rate at

which your remaining thyroid function burns out.

Until you get some real replacement thyroid hormones, fine tuned to the

right dose, you will still be ill. Unless the freeze dried tissue

requires a prescription, the active thyroxin has been removed. My

understanding is that only Armour is licensed for this use in the U.S.

Chuck

August 6, 2006

,

You wrote:

> ... it concerns me

> the amout of animals being killed for this product. ...

Put your mind at rest. Animals are not killed to produce dessicated

thyroids. The glands are a by-product of the large public demand for

bacon, ham, and pork chops. If we didn't have hypoT customers wanting

the product, the glands would be added to the other organs used to

supplement animal feeds. If there were greater demand by people, the

manufacturers could find a way to add beef and sheep glands to the

product stream without changing the number of animals harvested.

Chuck

August 6, 2006

,

You wrote:

> ... I guess hair clumps coming out in the shower

> doesn't happen to everyone?

It does when we are hypoT. When we get the right dose, it stops.

Chuck

August 6, 2006

I was diagnosed with Hashimotos when I was 17, put on synthroid until 25 and

then on the eco thyro from 25 - now. I am 33 and feel absolutely amazing taking

the thyroid tissue (eco) and the rev it up. I will hope that this continues,

thanks for your response.

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote: ,

You wrote:

>

> ...I have hashimotos and I take 4 eco thryo a day (dried freezed thyroid

> tissue) along with 4 " rev it up " a day (all spaced out). Rev it.. is a

> slow metabolizer synthesizer. It's ingredients are:

> L-Tyrosine

> Fatty acids

> choline Bitartrate

> Insotil

> Pangamic Acid

> PABA

> Adrenal Extract

> Lipoic Acid

> Hypothalamus

> Anterior Pituitary

> Kelp

> Boron

> And ofcourse a whole bunch of vitamins that I don't need to name.

> Like I said....the eco thyro is straight up dried freezed thyroid tissue.

> I have always considered this " alternative " treatment, compared to the

> synthroid I used to take, would you not consider this an alternative

> treatment?

Sadly, no. This cocktail (mainly the kelp) might temporarily help you

feel better, if you have SOME thyroid function left, which might be the

case with early Hashi's. However, if your thyroid output is

significantly degraded, the best this can do is speed up the rate at

which your remaining thyroid function burns out.

Until you get some real replacement thyroid hormones, fine tuned to the

right dose, you will still be ill. Unless the freeze dried tissue

requires a prescription, the active thyroxin has been removed. My

understanding is that only Armour is licensed for this use in the U.S.

Chuck

jessica stanziale

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

August 6, 2006

,

You wrote:

>

> I was diagnosed with Hashimotos when I was 17, put on synthroid until 25

> and then on the eco thyro from 25 - now. ...

How were you diagnosed?

Chuck

August 6, 2006

Gracia,

You wrote:

>

> ... Chuck believes that the RDA of 150mcg iodine is sufficient, ...

Different issue. The problem with Hashimoto's is that extra iodine can

trigger or exacerbate the immune response. This intensifies the attack

on the thyroid gland, beats down the T4 and T3 concentrations in the

blood, aggravates hypoT symptoms, speeds up the otherwise gradual demise

of the gland, and can even bring on unusual side effects, such as

encephalopathy, that might otherwise have been avoided. Daily use of

Betadine shampoo, for example, is often cited as a trigger of the condition.

http://www.tsh.org/askthedoctor/extraiodine.html

http://www.thyroidmanager.org/chapter8/8__iodide_metabolism.htm

Shomon; see misinformation #4:

http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidbasicsthyroid101/a/5lies.htm

http://www.ecureme.com/emyhealth/data/Hashimoto's_Thyroiditis.asp

http://www.raysahelian.com/hashimotosthyroiditis.html

Chuck

August 6, 2006

,

You wrote:

>

> I went to 4 different endocrinoloists (when I was a teen) and each one

> said my blood work came back showing I had hashimotos. Everytime I

> change insurances or move I go to a different one (just for check ups

> not for meds) and they always come back with the same results....tested

> positive for hashi.

Which _test_?

The older method for diagnosing Hashi's is just with TSH in combination

with the obvious symptoms, which is indeed determined from " blood work. "

That method is still popular with endos. They simply equate high TSH

with Hashimoto's. Unfortunately, that is not really definitive, even

though Hashi's is the most common etiology of chronic hypoT. You really

need to detect antibodies to be sure. These come in several different

flavors and can't always be detected, even when you have the condition.

The best antibody test, based on the 1956 original, is one called the

" electro-precipitin " or anti-Tg (anti-thyroglobulin) test, although many

still use a Hyland TA (thyroglobulin antibody), which has problems with

both false positives and insensitivity. A related test is for antibodies

to thyroid peroxidase (anti-TPO). Both anti-Tg and anti-TPO seem to

occur with Hashi's, but they can also be found (together or separately)

with rheumatoid arthritis, pernicious anemia, Type I diabetes, and

thyroid cancer.

So, it is still possible that you never had Hashi's in the first place,

or that it went into remission after several excursions in TSH. Either

way, I hope you stay well. I just don't think your RevItUp has much to

do with maintaining your current status, although it probably doesn't do

any harm either. Just keep an eye out for hypoT symptoms down the road

and be prepared to get real medication when that happens.

Chuck

August 6, 2006

no no no.

I understand the present belief system about hashis and iodine but the

alternative view by Brownstein et al believes hashis as well as other autoimmune

illnesses like Graves IS iodine deficiency. I think that's what Brownstein's

book on iodine is all about, but more info on http://www.iodine4health.com

Dose is all important, kinda like taking enough iron for some months to treat

iron deficiency.

Gracia