Guest guest Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. You would need cortisol and iodine for that, and then you wouldn't need cytomel. Gracia My depression has increased a lot lately for about a month now..I'm still with my doc. am trying to get the right doses of Armour & Cytomel. So, I looked it up and what I found was the the depression from being hypo is from an inbalance in FT4 & FT3. Now, I would say that means that one doesn't have the right balance of FT4 & FT3, right? If so, how does one know what the right balance is, other than trail and error...? Can anyone help me on this one? thanks Bev ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/750 - Release Date: 4/6/2007 9:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 Bev, You wrote: > > > My depression has increased a lot lately for about a month now..I'm > still with my doc. am trying to get the right doses of Armour & > Cytomel. So, I looked it up and what I found was the the depression > from being hypo is from an inbalance in FT4 & FT3. ... Depression can result from a lack of both, also. There was a very recent study that showed that mood was most dependent on Total T4 levels. This is certainly not what most expected, since FT3 is the active agent. In spite of this report, I would still suggest that you need to get both Total T4 and FT3 at the high end of the normal range to feel well. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 Gracia, You wrote: > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. ... As we have discussed before, this phrasing " getting into cells " is a holdover from a time when it was difficult to assay FT3. FT3 is water soluble and easily diffuses into and out of cells, without the aid of enzymes to cross the membrane. For all intents and purposes, serum FT3 is a measure of cell penetration. The phrasing really means that something is blocking the formation of FT3, perhaps T4/T3 conversion problems or globulin blocking. However, if FT3 is high, it is getting into the cells, guaranteed. As I recall, you were going to find some citations that contradicted this. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 oh yeah and OMG NO. I have personally experienced not being able to utilize thyroid hormone until I got cortef--it makes all the difference. Sometimes adding cortef allows a person to lower thyroid hormone, or else raise it when one couldn't b4. Enough iodine sensitizes cell receptors and can eliminate/lower dose of thyroid meds. Typically peeps who are on Armour and cytomel, can eliminate the cytomel with cortef. I think of cortef as an escort service. Seems like what is in the blood and what is in the cells can be be two very different things---totally ignored by docs. Ok I will look for some info on this. I am not feeling particularly brilliant today, b/c I am experimenting with my hormones, b/c iodine is changing my need for them. I think. Gracia Gracia Gracia, You wrote: > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. ... As we have discussed before, this phrasing " getting into cells " is a holdover from a time when it was difficult to assay FT3. FT3 is water soluble and easily diffuses into and out of cells, without the aid of enzymes to cross the membrane. For all intents and purposes, serum FT3 is a measure of cell penetration. The phrasing really means that something is blocking the formation of FT3, perhaps T4/T3 conversion problems or globulin blocking. However, if FT3 is high, it is getting into the cells, guaranteed. As I recall, you were going to find some citations that contradicted this. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Oh my...I never thought I would disagree with Chuck, and agree with Gracia. Last time it was checked, my FT3 was 15.9, with ref. being 3.5 to 6.5. I am definitely still hypoT though. My FT3 is not getting into my cells--guaranteed! Gail In hypothyroidism , Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote: > > Gracia, > > You wrote: > > > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. ... > > As we have discussed before, this phrasing " getting into cells " is a > holdover from a time when it was difficult to assay FT3. FT3 is water > soluble and easily diffuses into and out of cells, without the aid of > enzymes to cross the membrane. For all intents and purposes, serum FT3 > is a measure of cell penetration. The phrasing really means that > something is blocking the formation of FT3, perhaps T4/T3 conversion > problems or globulin blocking. However, if FT3 is high, it is getting > into the cells, guaranteed. > > As I recall, you were going to find some citations that contradicted this. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 I am taking Cortef, have been doing so for more than a year. It hasn't helped me, except to slow down the shaking of my hands. Possibly I need to take it in mega-amounts, as I do thyroid meds. > > > oh yeah and OMG NO. > I have personally experienced not being able to utilize thyroid hormone until I got cortef--it makes all the difference. Sometimes adding cortef allows a person to lower thyroid hormone, or else raise it when one couldn't b4. Enough iodine sensitizes cell receptors and can eliminate/lower dose of thyroid meds. > Typically peeps who are on Armour and cytomel, can eliminate the cytomel with cortef. I think of cortef as an escort service. > Seems like what is in the blood and what is in the cells can be be two very different things---totally ignored by docs. > Ok I will look for some info on this. I am not feeling particularly brilliant today, b/c I am experimenting with my hormones, b/c iodine is changing my need for them. I think. > Gracia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Forgot to sign. Sorry. Brainfog. Gail > > I am taking Cortef, have been doing so for more than a year. It hasn't > helped me, except to slow down the shaking of my hands. Possibly I need > to take it in mega-amounts, as I do thyroid meds. --- In > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 really? well I am surprised you would not agree with me! The other things that work stupendously are high dose iodine and sex hormones. http://www.optimox.com http://www.helpmythyroid.com Gracia Oh my...I never thought I would disagree with Chuck, and agree with Gracia. Last time it was checked, my FT3 was 15.9, with ref. being 3.5 to 6.5. I am definitely still hypoT though. My FT3 is not getting into my cells--guaranteed! Gail Recent Activity a.. 12New Members Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Thanks for the thoughts Bev > > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. You would need cortisol and iodine for that, and then you wouldn't need cytomel. > Gracia > > My depression has increased a lot lately for about a month now..I'm > still with my doc. am trying to get the right doses of Armour & > Cytomel. So, I looked it up and what I found was the the depression > from being hypo is from an inbalance in FT4 & FT3. Now, I would say > that means that one doesn't have the right balance of FT4 & FT3, > right? If so, how does one know what the right balance is, other than > trail and error...? Can anyone help me on this one? > > thanks > Bev > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/750 - Release Date: 4/6/2007 9:30 PM > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Hi Gail, Do you too take cortef & iodine? thanks Bev > > > > > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. ... > > > > As we have discussed before, this phrasing " getting into cells " is > a > > holdover from a time when it was difficult to assay FT3. FT3 is > water > > soluble and easily diffuses into and out of cells, without the aid > of > > enzymes to cross the membrane. For all intents and purposes, serum > FT3 > > is a measure of cell penetration. The phrasing really means that > > something is blocking the formation of FT3, perhaps T4/T3 > conversion > > problems or globulin blocking. However, if FT3 is high, it is > getting > > into the cells, guaranteed. > > > > As I recall, you were going to find some citations that > contradicted this. > > > > Chuck > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 What Chuck is telling you is that there is no barrier to FT3 that is in your blood entering the cells. The membrane to the FT3 just looks like an open door would to you, or a screened open window to a breeze. And the differential pressure is on the outside. If it's in your blood it can't NOT get into your cells. At least that's how I understand it... In any event, I'd give Chuck's opinion great weight. > > Re: depression?help > <hypothyroidism/message/27596;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMGZtdjk\ 4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMjc1OTYEc2V\ jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjExMjc2MA--> > > > > Posted by: " & Gail on " caniscaeli@... > <mailto:caniscaeli@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20depression%3Fhelp> > festiefirst <festiefirst> > > > Sun Apr 8, 2007 5:03 pm (PST) > > Oh my...I never thought I would disagree with Chuck, and agree with > Gracia. Last time it was checked, my FT3 was 15.9, with ref. being > 3.5 to 6.5. I am definitely still hypoT though. My FT3 is not getting > into my cells--guaranteed! > Gail > > In hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40>, Chuck B <gumboyaya@. > ..> wrote: > > > > Gracia, > > > > You wrote: > > > > > > it's not FT3/FT4 balance. FT3 is not getting into cells. ... > > > > As we have discussed before, this phrasing " getting into cells " is > a > > holdover from a time when it was difficult to assay FT3. FT3 is > water > > soluble and easily diffuses into and out of cells, without the aid > of > > enzymes to cross the membrane. For all intents and purposes, serum > FT3 > > is a measure of cell penetration. The phrasing really means that > > something is blocking the formation of FT3, perhaps T4/T3 > conversion > > problems or globulin blocking. However, if FT3 is high, it is > getting > > into the cells, guaranteed. > > > > As I recall, you were going to find some citations that > contradicted this. > > > > Chuck > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 , I'm not understanding this could you explain this a little better. thanks Bev And > the differential pressure is on the outside. > > If it's in your blood it can't NOT get into your cells. > > At least that's how I understand it... In any event, I'd give Chuck's > opinion great weight. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Nothing personal, but Chuck usually has the science to back up his views.:-) He's also not got the brainfog and lethargy that plagues some of us. In this case I know he's wrong though. But I'm not sure I have the energy to go look this up in Dr. Lowe's book. I do agree with Chuck about the high-dose iodine not being a good thing. Gail > > > really? well I am surprised you would not agree with me! > The other things that work stupendously are high dose iodine and sex hormones. > http://www.optimox.com > http://www.helpmythyroid.com > Gracia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 I do take Cortef, but not iodine. Gail > > Hi Gail, > Do you too take cortef & iodine? > thanks > Bev > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Yes, that's how I would understand Chuck's point as well. But it can't always be true, or I would feel the effects of taking 775 mcg of Cytomel-- Or 2100 mcg of T4--or 30 grains of Armour. The reality is that it was like I am taking nothing--or very little, and certainly not nearly enough. Gail In hypothyroidism , <res075oh@...> wrote: > > What Chuck is telling you is that there is no barrier to FT3 that is in > your blood entering the cells. The membrane to the FT3 just looks like > an open door would to you, or a screened open window to a breeze. And > the differential pressure is on the outside. > > If it's in your blood it can't NOT get into your cells. > > At least that's how I understand it... In any event, I'd give Chuck's > opinion great weight. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 So, I take it it is working for you and you're all better or at least doing good? thanks Bev > > I do take Cortef, but not iodine. > Gail > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 I'm taking 20 mg. a day, and it slows down the shaking of my hands and my internal shakiness. I'm doing better than I was three years ago when I was waiting to die. But I'm not doing very well, no. I have not noticed that Cortef does anything for depression. But that's me and I'm different. It may be just what you need, and would certainly be worth a try. If you've had hypoT for a long while, you probably are low in cortisol. Gail > > > > I do take Cortef, but not iodine. > > Gail > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Gail, You wrote: > > > Yes, that's how I would understand Chuck's point as well. But it can't > always be true, or I would feel the effects of taking 775 mcg of > Cytomel-- Or 2100 mcg of T4--or 30 grains of Armour. The reality is > that it was like I am taking nothing--or very little, and certainly not > nearly enough. That is exactly the effect of RT3. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 I really don't know how long I've had it, but I was dx-ed 10-03 and am not optimal yet. Bev > I'm taking 20 mg. a day, and it slows down the shaking of my hands and > my internal shakiness. I'm doing better than I was three years ago when > I was waiting to die. But I'm not doing very well, no. > I have not noticed that Cortef does anything for depression. But that's > me and I'm different. It may be just what you need, and would certainly > be worth a try. If you've had hypoT for a long while, you probably are > low in cortisol. > Gail > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 I really don't know how long I've had it, but I was dx-ed 10-03 and am not optimal yet. Bev > I'm taking 20 mg. a day, and it slows down the shaking of my hands and > my internal shakiness. I'm doing better than I was three years ago when > I was waiting to die. But I'm not doing very well, no. > I have not noticed that Cortef does anything for depression. But that's > me and I'm different. It may be just what you need, and would certainly > be worth a try. If you've had hypoT for a long while, you probably are > low in cortisol. > Gail > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 actually Hertoghe MD says that cortef is THE med for depression. I have found that high dose iodine has a huge impact on mood, it is soooooo important. Hypothyroidism is iodine deficiency. I would also be dead without sex hormones. Gracia I'm taking 20 mg. a day, and it slows down the shaking of my hands and my internal shakiness. I'm doing better than I was three years ago when I was waiting to die. But I'm not doing very well, no. I have not noticed that Cortef does anything for depression. But that's me and I'm different. It may be just what you need, and would certainly be worth a try. If you've had hypoT for a long while, you probably are low in cortisol. Gail > > > > I do take Cortef, but not iodine. > > Gail > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 - Release Date: 4/9/2007 10:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Which part; that T3 cannot fail to get into your cells if it is in your blood? That part [as I understand it] is simple: The barrier or membrane that surrounds the cells cannot prevent T3 from going through with the blood or whatever. It's kind of like pouring water on a horizontal window screen: The water cannot fail to go through. Or if it's the part about giving Chuck's opinion having great weight that's because I know enough about the scientific method to see that Chuck follows it. He is obviously intelligent and well educated in the fields upon which he posts; and his references are most impressive to anyone with a small understanding of science [such as I have]. His response are carefully and precisely presented. While others may well have been fortunate enough to through trial, pain, and error find a personal treatment regimen which works well for themselves there is no one on the list who even approaches Chuck's level of expertise. On top of that, he seems to be a genuine nice guy! > > Re: depression?help > <hypothyroidism/message/27611;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcW5qZ2V\ yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMjc2MTEEc2V\ jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjE5OTY2MQ--> > > > > Posted by: " Bev " bdowns45681@... > <mailto:bdowns45681@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20depression%3Fhelp> > bdowns45681 <bdowns45681> > > > Mon Apr 9, 2007 2:57 pm (PST) > > > , I'm not understanding this could you explain this a little > better. > thanks > Bev > > And > > the differential pressure is on the outside. > > > > If it's in your blood it can't NOT get into your cells. > > > > At least that's how I understand it... In any event, I'd give > Chuck's > > opinion great weight. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 , Thank you for your kind support. However, to be fair, I have occasionally been wrong on thyroid matters. Gracia is keeping score. She and I will have to share a large steak with heavily buttered rolls over it some day. I'll still pass on the extra iodine, though. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 yummy, and a pint of Guiness. if I am right about the iodine, then dinner is on you Gracia , Thank you for your kind support. However, to be fair, I have occasionally been wrong on thyroid matters. Gracia is keeping score. She and I will have to share a large steak with heavily buttered rolls over it some day. I'll still pass on the extra iodine, though. Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 - Release Date: 4/9/2007 10:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 Gracia, You wrote: > > yummy, and a pint of Guiness. > if I am right about the iodine, then dinner is on you Sure'n a jar of black nectar would be fine, but by the time they finish a definitive study on the iodine, I may no longer have teeth. It may have to be Maine lobster. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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