Re: Abraham's history of iodine

[Guest guest]

well this is interesting, lots of good points, but I would defend Chuck a bit.

He always sounds respectful, I don't think he's a bully. Too bad he is so

wedded to the T4 only meds.

Gracia

Dear Sam you wrote: How do I now the other stuff about why people still have

symptoms of ID eve tho they take iodized salt? 3 iodine groups and 4 thyroid

groups...real live people in the middle of living it.

Dear Sam,

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[Guest guest]

And I hope it is a long one. I have a concern for you, but no

objection; it apparently works for you. I have a greater concern when

you recommend the same for others; when there is ample evidence that

some people could be very seriously harmed by same.

>

> Re: Abraham's history of iodine

>

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jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzcwODQyMQ-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " Gracia " circe@...

>

<mailto:circe@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Abraham%27s%20history%20of%20iodine>

> graciabee <graciabee>

>

>

> Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:44 pm (PST)

>

>

> I plan on taking 50mg Iodoral for the rest of my life.

> Gracia

>

> Sam, before anyone has to explain " why so many people who use iodized

> table salt continue to exhibit symptoms of

> iodine deficiency " please provide some evidence that your statement is

> correct. Do you have any numbers from any reputable source that

> indicate that there are significant numbers of iodine deficient people

> who consume a normal quantity of iodized salt? I'm under the impression

> that all the studies indicate that once iodine deficient people start to

> consume iodized salt that the deficiency disappears.

>

> It's fantastic that you are enjoying great health now, and I'm happy for

> you. But frankly I'm quite concerned about the quantity of iodine that

> you and Gracia report taking. 50 mg/day??? Isn't that 50,000 mcg/day

> [as someone else suggested], while the recommended intake is 150

> mcg/day? Or are my numbers so far off base?

>

> If I'm looking at it right I surely hope you know the signs of iodine

> poisoning. If you wake up some day with a dead liver you're history.

> But from what I've read the symptoms are very up front and unpleasant,

> so it seems you would certainly recognize them.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

>

> You aren't realizing that anecdotal evidence isn't accepted as proof to

> either Chuck or . They are like the majority of men in research who

> believe that only numbers can be interpreted as data. (I personally think it's

> more of a " guy " thing, just like they like electronics etc...

Notwithstanding the rest of your sexist ad hominem remarks, I know

plenty of female colleagues and physicians who are just as emphatic

about the value of empirical evidence. Anecdotal evidence does have

uses, primarily in justifying more rigorous investigation of something.

However, in the absence of that rigor and with overwhelming numbers of

people not conforming to the alternative theory, it seems wiser to

recommend that people try the commonly effective treatment first. If

that doesn't work, then consider alternatives.

You do not need to be male to have common sense.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Gracia,

Thank you.

You wrote:

> ... Too bad he is so wedded to the T4 only meds.

I am certainly not committed to T4 only. In fact, my niece is currently

on Armour, mostly because I recommended it to her, when Synthroid did

not seem to be working.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I know. <giggle>

We never get degrees from the school of hard knocks, but we certainly

do get the education...

By the way, I come from a " doctor family " on the paternal side

(Stamler).

Sam

(thyroid-less, Iodized, and Armour-ized)

k9gang@...

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-09/IOD_09.htm

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-02/IOD_02.htm

http://www.laurapower.com/iodinedeficiency.htm

http://www.vrp.com/art/1860.asp

http://www.quackcenter.com/ideficiency.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller20.html

http://www.iodine4health.com

http://www.jcrows.com/iodine.html

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/loadTest.htm

http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/loading.html

http://www.helpmythyroid.com/IOD4.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDL/is_1_13/ai_n17212623

http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/dt.php

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art40118.asp

http://www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html

BHRT

http://www.medaus.com/p/Three-Rules-for-Using-BHRT___200,965.html

http://www.thecompounder.com/saliva-vs-serum.pdf

>

> Dear Sam,

>

> You aren't realizing that anecdotal evidence isn't accepted as

proof to

> either Chuck or .

[Guest guest]

<grin> See? I knew you had a good head on your shoulders.

BadSammy <wink wink>

> > ... Too bad he is so wedded to the T4 only meds.

>

> I am certainly not committed to T4 only. In fact, my niece is

currently

> on Armour, mostly because I recommended it to her, when Synthroid did

> not seem to be working.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Well, Chuck is a scientist and I'm not, so maybe you shouldn't lump us

too closely together. Chuck might object! [ggg] I do, to some extent,

understand and respect the scientific method.

I think you do a disservice to all the female scientists and other

professionals out there. It's not the almost totally male dominated

field that it used to be. I don't know what the PhD awards ratio is

between male and female, but I'll bet it's no where near as skewed as it

used to be.

The proper approach to scientific evidence is that anecdotal evidence in

rigid studies has very little value; and oft times none at all. Where

anecdotal evidence can have a great deal of value to science is in

suggesting fields for proper study. But even properly conducted

evidence gathering does not " offer proof " ; it merely supports a

proposition [or not].

It is the nature of a scientist [and, to a lessor extent, of someone

only somewhat versed in science] to express oneself in a manner that can

be off putting if you are not familiar with it; and understand the value

placed upon such precise communication by the scientific community. I

knew Chuck was very well versed in science immediately, even before I

learned that he was in fact a scientist; simply by the way he expressed

himself. This precise way of speaking [typing] can seem somewhat cold

or impersonal. It does tend to be more fact based than feeling based;

because, as you said, we can count facts but feelings are harder [and

more nebulous]. You probably have to look a little harder to find the

warm human under the professional facade, but never doubt it's there...

Whether the scientist is male or female.

Here's a part I think is really off the wall; and that exhibits the

insensitivity and bias that you seem to imply infects all males:

> Maybe he likes verbally bullying women? (LOL, you know what

> they say about insecure men who feel the need to bully women, don't

> you, Chuck?

> Do you drive a big truck too?)

My only comment: Shame on you.

> Re: Abraham's history of iodine

>

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jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzczOTQ2Mg-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " HeartfeltTherapy@... " HeartfeltTherapy@...

>

<mailto:HeartfeltTherapy@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Abraham%27s%20history%20of%2\

0iodine>

> heartfelt_therapy <heartfelt_therapy>

>

>

> Fri Jul 6, 2007 5:52 am (PST)

>

> Dear Sam you wrote: How do I now the other stuff about why people

> still have

> symptoms of ID eve tho they take iodized salt? 3 iodine groups and 4

> thyroid

> groups...real live people in the middle of living it.

>

> Dear Sam,

>

> You aren't realizing that anecdotal evidence isn't accepted as proof to

> either Chuck or . They are like the majority of men in research

> who believe

> that only numbers can be interpreted as data. (I personally think it's

> more of a

> " guy " thing, just like they like electronics etc... I really do love

> men. I

> just hate when their protective urges get out of control. There's

> nothing like

> a big strong man holding you, right ladies?)

>

> Research based purely on numbers is called " quantitative " data and you

> need

> to know where to look for your numbers. Thyroid research is done based

> on blood

> tests which count the amount of thyroid in your system. They have no

> way to

> find out from this information, just how much thyroid each cell is

> actually

> using. It's like trying to predict how much a person is spending by

> looking at

> the amount of money they have in their savings account. The tests can

> show when

> there's no money (Thyroid) to be spent, but aren't much good once the

> money

> (Thyroid) is in the savings account (blood). Men really seem to think

> these test

> are relevant. The quantitative research is based on tests and surveys, in

> which the researcher is looking some place specific or has developed

> questions

> based on either his expected out come or evidence he is already aware of.

>

> Research based on stories (anecdotal) in which themes come forward is

> called

> " qualitative " data. In qualitative research, the researcher has to

> interview

> people about their condition with open ended questions, which elicit

> information based on the person's experience. This experience is an

> unknown quantity,

> until many interviews with many different people are done and

> repetitive themes

> begin to emerge. Then and only then can they come up with a test or

> survey

> which quantifies the qualitative data. You can imagine, it takes a lot

> of work,

> and it takes a lot of listening, not something male researchers really

> want to

> do.

>

> Here's an example of something to research....

>

> Let's try massage. Well... first how can you do a double blind study of

> massage? LOL, I guess you could gage untrained touch against trained

> massage

> therapist. But, I'm pretty sure someone would know if they are being

> massaged or

> not, and who's to say someone who's untrained might not just have a

> " natural "

> knack for it? So if we wanted to research the affects/benifits/

> problems of

> massage how would one go about it? Where would you start to look? What

> types of test

> would you begin to give and monitor? You would have to have a

> preconceived

> idea of what might actually be happening, or you would have to

> interview a whole

> lot of people and observe those people while they are getting their

> massage,

> and do an immense battery of tests, and only from looking at the

> outcomes and

> comparing them, could you even begin to know some of the chemical affects

> going on in the body, with massage.

>

> Does anyone remember that magic diet pill the doctors were prescribing

> like

> it was candy? Boy, Oh boy did it work! Unfortunately only after enough

> people

> took it and came up with heart issues, did it get taken off the market.

> Apparently the researchers weren't running the right tests or long

> enough to catch

> the damage. A while back there was another research project in which

> women were

> given hormone replacement therapy, to see if it helped with heart issues.

> Luckily for the women and the researchers, they were actually looking

> in the right

> place during the research, and it became clear right away, that it was

> not

> good for women's hearts, so they stopped the study way before it was

> scheduled

> to end. What do you suppose would happen if the researchers in the

> second study

> had been looking at liver or other organ issues instead of the heart?

>

> You might ask why would it matter how much thyroid each cell is actually

> using?... Thyroid regulates the amount of oxygen that actually enters

> each cell of

> your body for use. It doesn't do much good on the outside of the cell.

> Your

> body has all of these tiny little furnaces which need both fuel and

> oxygen in

> order to work. So it's like turning down the burners in each cell when

> oxygen

> isn't being used. Men naturally have higher metabolism than women. It

> certainly

> helps to understand why they are able to convert T4 to T3, when women's

> bodies have difficulties. Men's bodies are so different from ours when

> it comes to

> all hormones, so they may actually need more T4 and women need more

> T3. But

> have the Synthroid researchers looked in that area? Why would they

> want to look

> at how the men and women's bodies use T3 differently, when they are

> making T4?

> How many of the Synthroid research subjects were men and how many were

> women?

> Does Thyroid and Iodine have a synergistic affect in women, yet not in

> men?

> These are the types of questions to ask, but have they been asked?

>

> I think it's interesting that generally women are open to the idea that

> unprocessed salt might be different from processed salt, and to men

> " salt is salt " ,

> it kinda reminds me that other than to OB/GYN and a few Urology doctors,

> " bodies are bodies " . Face it women, do we really care that much about

> prostrates?

> I can only think of one instance that I even care about where it is;-) It

> makes sense that men don't really care about what makes women

> different unless it

> directly affects them.

>

> Do the men in this group not notice it's almost a men vs. women opinion

> difference? As women, we are very used to men ignoring our issues

> because they

> don't pertain to them or affect them. I understand that for some men,

> it is very

> uncomfortable not to have the answers to all of the questions. It's

> OK, really,

> I don't have the answers either, but I sure do have a curiosity about

> life.

> Unfortunately there are also a lot more men in medicine and research than

> women. As it changes, I suspect the right questions will be asked as

> well as

> qualitative data given more respect. If researchers really were

> interested in

> qualitative data, we'd find them in these user groups.

>

> I'm really wondering why Chuck is here, since he doesn't have the

> issues he

> speaks against and discounts all the women's experience. He says only

> people

> with problems with T4 come to these user groups. Perhaps he feels he's

> the only

> voice of reason? Maybe he likes verbally bullying women? (LOL, you

> know what

> they say about insecure men who feel the need to bully women, don't

> you, Chuck?

> Do you drive a big truck too?) Perhaps Chuck doesn't realize, when he

> doesn't

> validate that a woman has the right to feel the way she feels, he's bully

> her? (feelings are feelings, not facts which are supposed to be right

> or wrong.)

> Don't get me wrong Chuck, I like cocky little guys too, they can be very

> entertaining. I actually think that Chuck is quite chivalrous, trying

> to save all

> us ladies from ourselves. We're not here to be saved from ourselves.

> We're here

> to share our stories and find out what other's stories are and if/when

> someone has found a solution to an issue in a story which is similar

> to ours, to

> have hope it just might work for us too.

>

> I've also noticed the women in this group often refer to " a leap of

> faith " ,

> when deciding to try something that has worked for another woman, or

> decide to

> go against everything else that they have been previously told. I

> think the

> men would feel much better if they realize, women need to feel a

> resonance with

> others, that many issues of the story have to coincide with their own,

> before

> they are about to take that leap. I believe stories are more important to

> women, than " facts " , but that facts are also important... just not as

> important as

> they seem to be to men, just like stories aren't as important to men.

>

> I'm sure there are many, many enlightened men on this earth, who both

> like

> and treasure the difference between men and women, and don't think

> women are

> broken and need to be fixed when a woman has an emotion and men who

> don't feel

> the need to be superior and belittle women in order to boost their

> egos. I

> actually know men who can validate a woman's feelings and still

> express their own

> opinions, so I know they exist. In my experience, they don't always

> exist,

> they're male humans too, but they have their glorious moments.

>

>