Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

[Guest guest]

cortef is hydrocortisone/adrenal med which I order from England (cheap! but

shipping costs $15). Iodoral is one of the best things I have ever taken,

available from http://www.breastcancerchoices.org look at research on

http://www.optimox.com

email me if you want addy in England, plus other sources.

Gracia

circe@...

Gracia,

is idoral an iodine supplement? and where do you get cortef?

crystal\

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Crystal,

You asked:

>

> I am interested in knowing what and how much you take.

Sure, I am on 125 mcg per day of levothyroxine. My mother takes 100 mcg

and my sister 150 mcg. Both of those have been reduced over the years

from a maximum of 200 mcg. My two nieces are both on a combination of

Armour and Cytomel, last time I checked in the 1 to 2 grain range.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

tassiter wrote:

>

> So are you saying that the MAXIMUM anyone should take of armour would

> be 2 grains?

I am saying that is what the manufacturer of Armour recommends, although

it should vary with body weight. There are circumstances when a higher

dose might be necessary, but Forest suggests that those are relatively

rare and should be carefully screened for non-compliance with dosing

directions. For example, Gracia ignores the rule of no food an hour

after or two hours before taking the meds.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Crystal,

You wrote:

>

> why did you opt out of armour? ...

I didn't. The doctor prescribed Synthroid, and the insurance company

switched it to the generic. I never had a problem, except for the

initial symptoms during the titration.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

Would you say that more women prefer to switch to Armour whereas most men

are satisfied with Synthroid? Or is it just this list? Could it be that

women suffer more when their hormones are out of balance? I know the men in

my household suffer when MY hormones are out of balance!

Edie

[Guest guest]

Edie,

You wrote:

>

> Would you say that more women prefer to switch to Armour whereas most men

> are satisfied with Synthroid? Or is it just this list? ...

The list attracts people who are having problems with their medications.

Levothyroxine is the second most prescribed drug, and about 10% of all

women are affected by hypoT, roughly 20 million patients in the U.S.

alone. That tells you that only a tiny percentage of women use Armour.

The vast majority are satisfied with T4 only.

Forest Laboratories actually sells more of its brand of levothyroxine

(Levothroid) than it does Armour, although it says that Armour is the

leading brand of mixed (T4 and T3) medication.

There was one study in 1999 which suggested better mood and cognitive

results with Armour over T4 alone: Bunevicius R, Kazanavicius G,

Zalinkevicius R, Prange AJ Jr. " Effects of thyroxine as compared with

thyroxine plus triiodothyronine in patients with hypothyroidism. " N Engl

J Med. 1999 Feb 11;340(6):424-9.

However, subsequent studies have all showed this was incorrect, and

there really is no significant difference:

Escobar-Morreale HF, Botella-Carretero JI, Gomez-Bueno M, Galan JM,

Barrios V, Sancho J. Thyroid hormone replacement therapy in

primary hypothyroidism: a randomized trial comparing L-thyroxine plus

liothyronine with L-thyroxine alone. Ann Intern Med. 2005 Mar

15;142(6):412-24. (Merck sponsored).

This one actually showed a tendency to overdose and trigger the hazards

of hyperT with Armour: Siegmund W, Spieker K, Weike AI, Giessmann T,

Modess C, Dabers T, Kirsch G, Sanger E, Engel G, Hamm AO, Nauck M, Meng

W. Replacement therapy with levothyroxine plus triiodothyronine

(bioavailable molar ratio 14 : 1) is not superior to thyroxine alone to

improve well-being and cognitive performance in hypothyroidism. Clin

Endocrinol (Oxf). 2004 Jun;60(6):750-7. (No sponsor listed)

Clyde PW, Harari AE, Getka EJ, Shakir KM. Combined levothyroxine plus

liothyronine compared with levothyroxine alone in primary

hypothyroidism: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2003 Dec

10;290(22):2952-8. (Sponsor, National Naval Medical Center)

Sawka AM, Gerstein HC, Marriott MJ, MacQueen GM, Joffe RT. Does a

combination regimen of thyroxine (T4) and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine

improve depressive symptoms better than T4 alone in patients with

hypothyroidism? Results of a double-blind, randomized, controlled trial.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Oct;88(10):4551-5. (Sponsored by Aventis)

Escobar-Morreale HF, Botella-Carretero JI, Escobar del Rey F, Morreale

de Escobar G. REVIEW: Treatment of hypothyroidism with combinations of

levothyroxine plus liothyronine. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005

Aug;90(8):4946-54 (Sponsored by University Grants)

Walsh JP, Shiels L, Lim EM, Bhagat CI, Ward LC, Stuckey BG, Dhaliwal SS,

Chew GT, Bhagat MC, Cussons AJ. Combined thyroxine/liothyronine

treatment does not improve well-being, quality of life, or cognitive

function compared to thyroxine alone: a randomized controlled trial in

patients with primary hypothyroidism. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003

Oct;88(10):4543-50. (Sponsored by Sir Gairdner Hospital Research

Foundation)

Chuck

[Guest guest]

most peeps on thyroid forums take 3--5 grains of Armour, although I know of

some who take 10 grains (no thyroid gland).

I could only take 90mg of Armour until I got adrenal support. Adrenals

usually aren't treated by mainstream medicine, so maybe that's why the advice of

2 grains.

Actually I work with a woman who is on 90mg, has a TSH of 5!, and is really

undertreated.

Gracia

tassiter wrote:

>

> So are you saying that the MAXIMUM anyone should take of armour would

> be 2 grains?

I am saying that is what the manufacturer of Armour recommends, although

it should vary with body weight. There are circumstances when a higher

dose might be necessary, but Forest suggests that those are relatively

rare and should be carefully screened for non-compliance with dosing

directions. For example, Gracia ignores the rule of no food an hour

after or two hours before taking the meds.

Chuck

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PM

[Guest guest]

Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he says

90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although I have

encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4 has mood/and or

weight issues.

I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c he writes

about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated properly.

Gracia

Chuck,

Would you say that more women prefer to switch to Armour whereas most men

are satisfied with Synthroid? Or is it just this list? Could it be that

women suffer more when their hormones are out of balance? I know the men in

my household suffer when MY hormones are out of balance!

Edie

[Guest guest]

On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Gracia wrote:

>

> Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he

> says 90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although

> I have encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4

> has mood/and or weight issues.

> I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c

> he writes about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated

> properly.

> Gracia

>

I think if most people are doing " fine " on T4 only, it's because they

either have been convinced by their doctors that it's the best they can

do, or they have been told that the continued problems are all in their

heads and given an antidepressant... been there, done that. BTW, if we

have universal health care, T4 is the only thing that will be available

because it makes money for the drug companies who have purchased our

congress.

Marti

[Guest guest]

venizia1948 wrote:

>

>

> WHOA, NOW THAT WAS FUNNY! YOU GAVE ME MY FIRST LAUGH OF THE DAY!!! SORRY

> IT WAS AT YOUR EXPENSE, ...

That is quite all right. I have had plenty of time to get used to " old

baldy. " I am actually surprised it has not progressed much further.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

sorry to be late in answering this.

the HC I take is not OTC, it is a med.

look on http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com for discussion of adrenals and

HC. also google Jefferies MD who wrote Safe Uses of Cortisol.

Gracia

so why not just go buy hydrocortisone from the local drug store or

health food store?

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I don't think that many of the studies done on Hashimoto's thyroiditis and hypoT

people are correct.?

Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Gracia wrote:

>

> Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he

> says 90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although

> I have encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4

> has mood/and or weight issues.

> I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c

> he writes about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated

> properly.

> Gracia

>

I think if most people are doing " fine " on T4 only, it's because they

either have been convinced by their doctors that it's the best they can

do, or they have been told that the continued problems are all in their

heads and given an antidepressant... been there, done that. BTW, if we

have universal health care, T4 is the only thing that will be available

because it makes money for the drug companies who have purchased our

congress.

Marti

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Usual dose of Armour is 3--5 grains. 1 grain=60mg

old Merck manuals used to recommend 3--9 grains of Armour. I know of a doctor

who is on 10 grains, born without a thyroid gland.

Doesn't make sense to undertreat. TSH on Armour will be near zero.

Gracia

The full replacement dose for Armour, needed if you have no thyroid hormones

at all, is 2 1/2 to 3 grains. Most people have some thyroid function left even

after surgery, RAI, or Hashi's, so they will not need a full replacement dose.

Just because most people are on two grains does not mean that that is the most

everyone should take..

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[Guest guest]

hi Marti

I enjoy your posts but I don't believe that universal health care means we

will only get T4 meds. I think the guvmint will have the incentive to pay for

what works. We cannot afford the system the way it is now, that's for sure.

Gracia

On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Gracia wrote:

>

> Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he

> says 90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although

> I have encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4

> has mood/and or weight issues.

> I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c

> he writes about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated

> properly.

> Gracia

>

I think if most people are doing " fine " on T4 only, it's because they

either have been convinced by their doctors that it's the best they can

do, or they have been told that the continued problems are all in their

heads and given an antidepressant... been there, done that. BTW, if we

have universal health care, T4 is the only thing that will be available

because it makes money for the drug companies who have purchased our

congress.

Marti

[Guest guest]

Universal health care means you will never get thyroid meds at all, because

they will refuse to give you a diagnosis of hypothyroid. They will have

overly broad ranges and only the most acutely ill will get anything (if you

survive). You can experience this slice of heaven right now if you wish.

It's called Kaiser HMO. Bon appetit.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 8:12 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

hi Marti

I enjoy your posts but I don't believe that universal health care means we

will only get T4 meds. I think the guvmint will have the incentive to pay

for what works. We cannot afford the system the way it is now, that's for

sure.

Gracia

On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Gracia wrote:

>

> Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he

> says 90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although

> I have encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4

> has mood/and or weight issues.

> I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c

> he writes about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated

> properly.

> Gracia

>

I think if most people are doing " fine " on T4 only, it's because they

either have been convinced by their doctors that it's the best they can

do, or they have been told that the continued problems are all in their

heads and given an antidepressant.-.. been there, done that. BTW, if we

have universal health care, T4 is the only thing that will be available

because it makes money for the drug companies who have purchased our

congress.

Marti

[Guest guest]

Gracia,

You wrote:

>

> Usual dose of Armour is 3--5 grains. 1 grain=60mg

> old Merck manuals used to recommend 3--9 grains of Armour....

Is that from the Stone Age?

The oldest edition I have is from 1977. It recommends T4 from 200 to 300

mcg per day or dessicated thyroid at 3 grains per day. Pretty familiar.

They don't mention treating adrenals first, though.

The 11th Ed. dates to 1966. There is one available on Ebay. It will cost

more to ship it than to buy it. The edition before that dates to 1899.

Is that the one you mean? They have detailed instructions for bleeding

patients with excess bile.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

I so agree! I was not diagnosed as being hypothyroid until shortly after I left

Kaiser. I had been to Kaiser over 50 times, with all my symptoms, and I tried

at least 10 different Kaiser docs, over several years. When my new (non-Kaiser)

doc tested me, I had no detectable thyroid in my body and was going into

congestive heart failure. He said I must have been hypothyroid for at least 5

years. It took so long to diagnose, I'm sure I have permanent damage to my

body. He could not believe Kaiser did not diagnose me correctly and said I was

lucky to be alive!

neil <neilneil@...> wrote: Universal health care means you

will never get thyroid meds at all, because

they will refuse to give you a diagnosis of hypothyroid. They will have

overly broad ranges and only the most acutely ill will get anything (if you

survive). You can experience this slice of heaven right now if you wish.

It's called Kaiser HMO. Bon appetit.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 8:12 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

hi Marti

I enjoy your posts but I don't believe that universal health care means we

will only get T4 meds. I think the guvmint will have the incentive to pay

for what works. We cannot afford the system the way it is now, that's for

sure.

Gracia

On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Gracia wrote:

>

> Chuck has posted that most peeps do fine on T4 only meds, I think he

> says 90+%. I have not noticed this in my real life however, although

> I have encountered only women on T4. Every woman I have met on T4

> has mood/and or weight issues.

> I really like the book Hormone Solutions by Thierry Hertoghe MD b/c

> he writes about hormone probs that are usually never Dxed or treated

> properly.

> Gracia

>

I think if most people are doing " fine " on T4 only, it's because they

either have been convinced by their doctors that it's the best they can

do, or they have been told that the continued problems are all in their

heads and given an antidepressant.-.. been there, done that. BTW, if we

have universal health care, T4 is the only thing that will be available

because it makes money for the drug companies who have purchased our

congress.

Marti

[Guest guest]

Armour goes way back before 1966, I think it goes way

back to the 40s or 50s.

Roni

--- Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

> Gracia,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > Usual dose of Armour is 3--5 grains. 1 grain=60mg

> > old Merck manuals used to recommend 3--9 grains of

> Armour....

>

> Is that from the Stone Age?

>

> The oldest edition I have is from 1977. It

> recommends T4 from 200 to 300

> mcg per day or dessicated thyroid at 3 grains per

> day. Pretty familiar.

> They don't mention treating adrenals first, though.

>

> The 11th Ed. dates to 1966. There is one available

> on Ebay. It will cost

> more to ship it than to buy it. The edition before

> that dates to 1899.

> Is that the one you mean? They have detailed

> instructions for bleeding

> patients with excess bile.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kaiser dose not represent universal health care!!! It represents a for

profit medical system. Follow the $$$. This is what the movie Sicko points

out. It's the insured that suffering the most.

Gracia

I so agree! I was not diagnosed as being hypothyroid until shortly after I

left Kaiser. I had been to Kaiser over 50 times, with all my symptoms, and I

tried at least 10 different Kaiser docs, over several years. When my new

(non-Kaiser) doc tested me, I had no detectable thyroid in my body and was going

into congestive heart failure. He said I must have been hypothyroid for at least

5 years. It took so long to diagnose, I'm sure I have permanent damage to my

body. He could not believe Kaiser did not diagnose me correctly and said I was

lucky to be alive!

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[Guest guest]

Roni,

You wrote:

>

> Armour goes way back before 1966, I think it goes way

> back to the 40s or 50s....

Much earlier.

The first use of dessicated thyroid was in England to treat myxedema in

1891. Dr. Merck himself developed a medication based on sheep thyroids

in 1894, so the manual certainly included this mode of treatment. The

first use in the U.S. was a couple of years later using porcine

thyroids. The name Armour comes from the meat packing company, Armour

and Company, which supplied the glands from its operations from the

1890s. So, the basic idea was obviously around in time for the first

edition of the Merck Manual in 1899.

Most of the dessicated thyroids used early on in the U.S. were a

combination of pork and beef, so the dosage may well have been different

for the first edition. Modern versions are all pork and have

standardized doses. Within a decade they had observed the effects of too

much dessicated thyroid (thyrotoxicity) and started to set limits on the

dose.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Gracia,

Of course Kaiser is not EXACTLY the same as universal health care. I held up

Kaiser though as an example as a huge, bloated organization employing

thousands of doctors. And just like you would get in a universal health care

system, the doctor is the gatekeeper. That is key.

Universal health care would be a disaster, just like HMO's are.

It's simply magical when you go outside of these bloated health care systems

(yes, Canadian's and British citizens do this and they have universal care),

private doctors are responsive, run proper tests, are personable,

open-minded, etc. That's because doctors, wherever they work, never forget

who is paying them! When you go private you are paying the doctor directly.

In universal health care and HMO care, the doctor views the patient as an

inconvenience.

Your dream of fair universal health care is a fantasy. The reality is that

you will end up paying far more in taxes for crummy care, and then have to

pay more out of pocket for an excellent private doctor. Or just keep on self

treating like most of us are doing already, while the inevitable increase in

taxes universal health care requires.

Or did you think we were getting something for nothing???

Neil

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 7:43 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

Kaiser dose not represent universal health care!!! It represents a for

profit medical system. Follow the $$$. This is what the movie Sicko points

out. It's the insured that suffering the most.

Gracia

I so agree! I was not diagnosed as being hypothyroid until shortly after I

left Kaiser. I had been to Kaiser over 50 times, with all my symptoms, and I

tried at least 10 different Kaiser docs, over several years. When my new

(non-Kaiser) doc tested me, I had no detectable thyroid in my body and was

going into congestive heart failure. He said I must have been hypothyroid

for at least 5 years. It took so long to diagnose, I'm sure I have permanent

damage to my body. He could not believe Kaiser did not diagnose me correctly

and said I was lucky to be alive!

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[Guest guest]

Neil,

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, do you agree with more of a free

market, libertarian kind of healthcare system? Like competitive prices and

therefore cheaper? And therefore much lower taxes ... and when a person gets

sick

they just shop around for themselves? If not, what do you propose as a better

method than what's already been mentioned? Sorry, to ask political questions

guys.

Neil, you said:

Of course Kaiser is not EXACTLY the same as universal health care. I held up

Kaiser though as an example as a huge, bloated organization employing

thousands of doctors. And just like you would get in a universal health care

system, the doctor is the gatekeeper. That is key.

Universal health care would be a disaster, just like HMO's are.

It's simply magical when you go outside of these bloated health care systems

(yes, Canadian's and British citizens do this and they have universal care),

private doctors are responsive, run proper tests, are personable,

open-minded, etc. That's because doctors, wherever they work, never forget

who is paying them! When you go private you are paying the doctor directly.

In universal health care and HMO care, the doctor views the patient as an

inconvenience.

Your dream of fair universal health care is a fantasy. The reality is that

you will end up paying far more in taxes for crummy care, and then have to

pay more out of pocket for an excellent private doctor. Or just keep on self

treating like most of us are doing already, while the inevitable increase in

taxes universal health care requires.

Or did you think we were getting something for nothing???

Neil

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. But I know big Govt. screws up

everything they touch, so that can't possibly be the answer. I don't want

the same morons that run the DMV, social security, etc, running health care!

Up until a few years ago I never had really been sick so I never had much

contact with doctor's for anything other than a routine physical. I had paid

into Kaiser for over a decade and only used it a handful of times. I figured

that Kaiser must have good doctors, they graduated from big name medical

schools, right? But then over a year or so suddenly I didn't feel well, and

I assumed that Kaiser would quickly figure out what was wrong with me. I

couldn't have been more wrong, or more surprised in what happened next.

After about 30 or 40 doctor visits they never could figure out what was

wrong, mostly because they never would run proper tests or really any tests

at all. Finally I switched insurance companies at the next open enrollment

out of complete desperation, my situation and symptoms were getting worse.

The new doctors at the other HMO immediately found I had one 100% blockage

(RCA artery) and one 85% blockage (LAD artery, the " widow maker artery " ). I

must have had a silent heart attack, for I now have some degree of heart

damage and permanent changes on my EKG that could have been prevented if

Kaiser had run proper tests and cleared the blockage quickly with stents.

From what I understand citizens in Canada and England have problems with

their " universal care " as well, operations are postponed often until the

patient dies, diagnosis spotty, and people in these countries that have the

financial means come to the United States seeking medical treatment from

private specialists.

Anyway, the only doctors I have been completely and totally satisfied were

outside doctors I paid out of my own pocket. They are the only ones that

don't dismiss me, the patient, after a short 5 minute visit, run tests,

listen to me...the patient that writes the check and is their employer.

Private doctors are able to adjust hormone levels of thyroid, adrenal, and

testosterone to OPTIMAL levels, not the broad levels that HMO's and

universal care systems use....HMO's for example use such broad levels of

thyroid that only the most critically ill are diagnosed with hypothyroidism

or any disease or condition. My HMO endo told me that my TSH of over 3 and

symptoms of fatigue, lightheadedness , etc must mean I was " depressed " and

that I needed Prozac because her testing showed I was fine. In further

testing though, completely on my own and at considerable expense, I have

found out that my adrenal cortisol levels are almost undetectable over most

of the day. Indeed I am not only hypothyroid, I'm borderline 's, and

that I have the testosterone of a 90 year old man as well. Of course she

never checked for any of that.

I am now getting the treatment that I need, and am getting all my hormones

adjusted to OPTIMAL levels, not the broad levels the HMO dictates that only

show the grossest disease of people near death. So in system where the

doctor is the " gatekeeper " like England and Canada have, how EXACTLY would I

be better off???

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of bear339@...

Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:28 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

Neil,

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, do you agree with more of a free

market, libertarian kind of healthcare system? Like competitive prices and

therefore cheaper? And therefore much lower taxes ... and when a person gets

sick

they just shop around for themselves? If not, what do you propose as a

better

method than what's already been mentioned? Sorry, to ask political questions

guys.

Neil, you said:

Of course Kaiser is not EXACTLY the same as universal health care. I held up

Kaiser though as an example as a huge, bloated organization employing

thousands of doctors. And just like you would get in a universal health care

system, the doctor is the gatekeeper. That is key.

Universal health care would be a disaster, just like HMO's are.

It's simply magical when you go outside of these bloated health care systems

(yes, Canadian's and British citizens do this and they have universal care),

private doctors are responsive, run proper tests, are personable,

open-minded, etc. That's because doctors, wherever they work, never forget

who is paying them! When you go private you are paying the doctor directly.

In universal health care and HMO care, the doctor views the patient as an

inconvenience.

Your dream of fair universal health care is a fantasy. The reality is that

you will end up paying far more in taxes for crummy care, and then have to

pay more out of pocket for an excellent private doctor. Or just keep on self

treating like most of us are doing already, while the inevitable increase in

taxes universal health care requires.

Or did you think we were getting something for nothing???

Neil

************-*********-*********-******** See what's free at HYPERLINK

" http://www.aol.com. " http://www.aol.-com.

[Guest guest]

In the movie Sicko it interviewed a doctor who got bonuses for

keeping people well. Since they don't ever not treat anyone, it is

actually cheaper to keep them well.

If he were to get a patient to stop smoking, lower their cholesterol,

lose weight.... he got a bonus. Sounds like a good incentive to me to

keep people well.

I would gladly pay more in taxes to make sure everyone is being taken

care of. Not just those who can afford it. And imagine someone having

a job because they like it, not just because they need health care.

Or older people being bale to retire because they don't have stay on

that extra year to get their health care.

Our Police, fire, education (up to college anyway) is Universal. Why

not the medical? What we have does not work, why not try another way?

Can you imagine the drop in stress in every community because you no

longer have to be afraid if you will or won't get sick, need meds,

surgery, will it be denied, will you have to file bankruptcy in order

to get the care you need.

What about people who will never be treated because of some pre

existing condition like diabetes, heart disease.... It would be a

sorry state of mind of I were to be more concerned about higher taxes

so we could all be treated equal.

JMHO

Jackie

On Jul 3, 2007, at 5:34 PM, neil wrote:

> Gracia,

>

> Of course Kaiser is not EXACTLY the same as universal health care.

> I held up

> Kaiser though as an example as a huge, bloated organization employing

> thousands of doctors. And just like you would get in a universal

> health care

> system, the doctor is the gatekeeper. That is key.

>

> Universal health care would be a disaster, just like HMO's are.

>

> It's simply magical when you go outside of these bloated health

> care systems

> (yes, Canadian's and British citizens do this and they have

> universal care),

> private doctors are responsive, run proper tests, are personable,

> open-minded, etc. That's because doctors, wherever they work, never

> forget

> who is paying them! When you go private you are paying the doctor

> directly.

> In universal health care and HMO care, the doctor views the patient

> as an

> inconvenience.

>

> Your dream of fair universal health care is a fantasy. The reality

> is that

> you will end up paying far more in taxes for crummy care, and then

> have to

> pay more out of pocket for an excellent private doctor. Or just

> keep on self

> treating like most of us are doing already, while the inevitable

> increase in

> taxes universal health care requires.

>

> Or did you think we were getting something for nothing???

>

> Neil

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: hypothyroidism

> [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

> On Behalf Of Gracia

> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 7:43 AM

> hypothyroidism

> Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have aches and pains?

>

>

>

>

> Kaiser dose not represent universal health care!!! It represents a for

> profit medical system. Follow the $$$. This is what the movie Sicko

> points

> out. It's the insured that suffering the most.

> Gracia

>

> I so agree! I was not diagnosed as being hypothyroid until shortly

> after I

> left Kaiser. I had been to Kaiser over 50 times, with all my

> symptoms, and I

> tried at least 10 different Kaiser docs, over several years. When

> my new

> (non-Kaiser) doc tested me, I had no detectable thyroid in my body

> and was

> going into congestive heart failure. He said I must have been

> hypothyroid

> for at least 5 years. It took so long to diagnose, I'm sure I have

> permanent

> damage to my body. He could not believe Kaiser did not diagnose me

> correctly

> and said I was lucky to be alive!

>

> Recent Activity

> a.. 4New Members

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>

[Guest guest]

HMOs are strictly For Profit organizations, and their

bottom line is their medical criteria. Being in an HMO

automatically limits your care. If you can, I would

advise switching to a PPO or Fee For Service health

care plan. If you are over 65 the Medicare Supplement

is probably your best bet.

Roni

--- neil <neilneil@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. But I know

> big Govt. screws up

> everything they touch, so that can't possibly be the

> answer. I don't want

> the same morons that run the DMV, social security,

> etc, running health care!

>

> Up until a few years ago I never had really been

> sick so I never had much

> contact with doctor's for anything other than a

> routine physical. I had paid

> into Kaiser for over a decade and only used it a

> handful of times. I figured

> that Kaiser must have good doctors, they graduated

> from big name medical

> schools, right? But then over a year or so suddenly

> I didn't feel well, and

> I assumed that Kaiser would quickly figure out what

> was wrong with me. I

> couldn't have been more wrong, or more surprised in

> what happened next.

> After about 30 or 40 doctor visits they never could

> figure out what was

> wrong, mostly because they never would run proper

> tests or really any tests

> at all. Finally I switched insurance companies at

> the next open enrollment

> out of complete desperation, my situation and

> symptoms were getting worse.

> The new doctors at the other HMO immediately found I

> had one 100% blockage

> (RCA artery) and one 85% blockage (LAD artery, the

> " widow maker artery " ). I

> must have had a silent heart attack, for I now have

> some degree of heart

> damage and permanent changes on my EKG that could

> have been prevented if

> Kaiser had run proper tests and cleared the blockage

> quickly with stents.

> From what I understand citizens in Canada and

> England have problems with

> their " universal care " as well, operations are

> postponed often until the

> patient dies, diagnosis spotty, and people in these

> countries that have the

> financial means come to the United States seeking

> medical treatment from

> private specialists.

>

> Anyway, the only doctors I have been completely and

> totally satisfied were

> outside doctors I paid out of my own pocket. They

> are the only ones that

> don't dismiss me, the patient, after a short 5

> minute visit, run tests,

> listen to me...the patient that writes the check and

> is their employer.

> Private doctors are able to adjust hormone levels of

> thyroid, adrenal, and

> testosterone to OPTIMAL levels, not the broad levels

> that HMO's and

> universal care systems use....HMO's for example use

> such broad levels of

> thyroid that only the most critically ill are

> diagnosed with hypothyroidism

> or any disease or condition. My HMO endo told me

> that my TSH of over 3 and

> symptoms of fatigue, lightheadedness , etc must mean

> I was " depressed " and

> that I needed Prozac because her testing showed I

> was fine. In further

> testing though, completely on my own and at

> considerable expense, I have

> found out that my adrenal cortisol levels are almost

> undetectable over most

> of the day. Indeed I am not only hypothyroid, I'm

> borderline 's, and

> that I have the testosterone of a 90 year old man as

> well. Of course she

> never checked for any of that.

>

> I am now getting the treatment that I need, and am

> getting all my hormones

> adjusted to OPTIMAL levels, not the broad levels the

> HMO dictates that only

> show the grossest disease of people near death. So

> in system where the

> doctor is the " gatekeeper " like England and Canada

> have, how EXACTLY would I

> be better off???

>

> Neil

>

> _____

>

> From: hypothyroidism

> [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

> On Behalf Of bear339@...

> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:28 PM

> hypothyroidism

> Subject: Re: Re: Why do I have

> aches and pains?

>

>

>

> Neil,

> So if I'm understanding what you're saying, do you

> agree with more of a free

>

> market, libertarian kind of healthcare system? Like

> competitive prices and

> therefore cheaper? And therefore much lower taxes

> ... and when a person gets

> sick

> they just shop around for themselves? If not, what

> do you propose as a

> better

> method than what's already been mentioned? Sorry, to

> ask political questions

>

> guys.

>

>

>

> Neil, you said:

>

> Of course Kaiser is not EXACTLY the same as

> universal health care. I held up

> Kaiser though as an example as a huge, bloated

> organization employing

> thousands of doctors. And just like you would get in

> a universal health care

> system, the doctor is the gatekeeper. That is key.

>

> Universal health care would be a disaster, just like

> HMO's are.

>

> It's simply magical when you go outside of these

> bloated health care systems

> (yes, Canadian's and British citizens do this and

> they have universal care),

> private doctors are responsive, run proper tests,

> are personable,

> open-minded, etc. That's because doctors, wherever

> they work, never forget

> who is paying them! When you go private you are

> paying the doctor directly.

> In universal health care and HMO care, the doctor

> views the patient as an

> inconvenience.

>

> Your dream of fair universal health care is a

> fantasy. The reality is that

> you will end up paying far more in taxes for crummy

> care, and then have to

> pay more out of pocket for an excellent private

> doctor. Or just keep on self

> treating like most of us are doing already, while

> the inevitable increase in

> taxes universal health care requires.

>

> Or did you think we were getting something for

> nothing???

>

> Neil

>

> ************-*********-*********-******** See what's

> free at HYPERLINK

> " http://www.aol.com. " http://www.aol.-com.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 -

> Release Date: 6/26/2007

> 11:54 PM

>

>

>

> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 -

> Release Date: 6/26/2007

> 11:54 PM

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>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

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