Re: Re: Bechamp or Pasteur?

[Guest guest]

On 9/25/06, rpautrey2 <rpautrey2@...> wrote:

> Pasteur supposedly stated in his death bed that Bechamp was

> right, " The Terrain Is Everything "

I suspect this is about as credible an historical claim as Darwin

admitting evolution was false on his deathbed.

Even if Pastuer said that, who cares? What impact would it have on

science? Pasteur's opinion about the relative importance of the

microbe and the terrain has no bearing on the *actual* relative

importance of these two factors.

Chris

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[Guest guest]

Lori,

> The relevance of that admission had to do with the fact that

> Bechamps and Pasteur were rivals. Bechamps had a noted CV and was

> an accomplished scientist. Pasteur was more of a politician,

> however, and so was able to influence those in power that his views

> were correct. You're right Chris...we'll never know what Pasteur

> said on his deathbed and giving him credit for that admission only

> makes him seem smarter.

Since the idea that " the microbe is nothing; the terrain is

everything " is a little silly, I don't think it makes Pasteur any

smarter. It is roughly equivalent in merit to " the terrain is

nothing; the microbe is everything. " Both are equally false, and this

should be obvious from the fact that a) different microbes can be used

to produce qualitatively different diseases in people or animals with

equivalent terrain, and not all people/animals contract an illness

or contract it with the same severity who have equivalent exposure to

a given microbe. Obviously both the microbe and the terrain are

important.

Chris

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[Guest guest]

,

> You are missing the point. The terrain is the condition of the host.

> Why do some people catch the flu from a carrier and others exposed to

> that same carrier do not(etc.)?

I find it hard to believe I missed that point, since I wrote:

" not all people/animals contract an illness

or contract it with the same severity who have equivalent exposure to

a given microbe. "

> This also applies to other contagious

> diseases. The terrain is everything and it is not just flora.

The idea that the terrain is *everything* is ridiculous, because, as I said:

" different microbes can be used

to produce qualitatively different diseases in people or animals with

equivalent terrain. "

The microbe and the terrain are both important. Both the statement

" the microbe is everything; the terrain is nothing " and the statement

" the microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything " are equally false

and unreasonable.

Chris

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The Truth About Cholesterol

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Likewise, my original post addressed the authenticity of the deathbed

quote. You told me I missed your point in the last post, and made a

point about the microbe vs. terrain debate. So I responded in kind.

I don't know what the evidence for the deathbed quote is, but I'm very

skeptical of its authenticity.

How to make a perfect terrain, I don't know. I think improving

nutrition and digestion are the top two things that will move us

toward that goal, though.

Chris

On 9/28/06, rpautrey2 <rpautrey2@...> wrote:

> I agree with you. My original post was referring to what

> Pasteur " supposedly " said in his deathbed. I am still convinced that

> a " perfect terrain " gives the immune system and other healing systems

> of the body the power to inactivate or cure pathogenic diseases

> without any type of intervention. I am sure there are exceptions, I

> can think of a few worst case scenarios. The problem is, how do you

> create a perfect terrain? Naturopathy? Autrey

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> In candidiasis , " Masterjohn "

> <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > You are missing the point. The terrain is the condition of the

> host.

> > > Why do some people catch the flu from a carrier and others

> exposed to

> > > that same carrier do not(etc.)?

> >

> > I find it hard to believe I missed that point, since I wrote:

> >

> > " not all people/animals contract an illness

> > or contract it with the same severity who have equivalent exposure

> to

> > a given microbe. "

> >

> > > This also applies to other contagious

> > > diseases. The terrain is everything and it is not just flora.

> >

> > The idea that the terrain is *everything* is ridiculous, because,

> as I said:

> >

> > " different microbes can be used

> > to produce qualitatively different diseases in people or animals

> with

> > equivalent terrain. "

> >

> > The microbe and the terrain are both important. Both the statement

> > " the microbe is everything; the terrain is nothing " and the

> statement

> > " the microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything " are equally

> false

> > and unreasonable.

> >

> > Chris

> > --

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:46:11 -0000, " houyhnhnm10 " <howland@...> wrote:

>> On 9/25/06, rpautrey2 <rpautrey2@...> wrote:

>> > Pasteur supposedly stated in his death bed that Bechamp was

>> > right, " The Terrain Is Everything "

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm

Here is what Pasteur's biographer, one with a real name, had to say:

The last week in September he was no longer strong enough to leave his bed, his

weakness was extreme. On September 27, as he was offered a cup of milk: " I

cannot, " he murmured; his eyes looked around him with an unspeakable expression

of resignation, love and farewell. His head fell back on the pillows and he

slept; but, after this delusive rest, suddenly came the gaspings of agony. For

twenty-four hours he remained motionless, his eyes closed, his body almost

entirely paralyzed; one of his hands rested in that of Mme. Pasteur, the other

held a crucifix.

This, surrounded by his family and disciples, in this room of almost monastic

simplicity, on Saturday, September 28, 1895, at 4:40 in the afternoon, very

peacefully, he passed away.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:14:04 -0000, " rpautrey2 " <rpautrey2@...> wrote:

>I agree with you. My original post was referring to what

>Pasteur " supposedly " said in his deathbed. I am still convinced that

>a " perfect terrain " gives the immune system and other healing systems

>of the body the power to inactivate or cure pathogenic diseases

>without any type of intervention. I am sure there are exceptions, I

>can think of a few worst case scenarios. The problem is, how do you

>create a perfect terrain? Naturopathy? Autrey

You can't. It has to do with genes.

Ora

[Guest guest]

Ora,

> >I agree with you. My original post was referring to what

> >Pasteur " supposedly " said in his deathbed. I am still convinced that

> >a " perfect terrain " gives the immune system and other healing systems

> >of the body the power to inactivate or cure pathogenic diseases

> >without any type of intervention. I am sure there are exceptions, I

> >can think of a few worst case scenarios. The problem is, how do you

> >create a perfect terrain? Naturopathy? Autrey

> You can't. It has to do with genes.

There isn't any single biological thing whatsoever that doesn't have

to do with genes. How do you conclude from this that one cannot

modify one's susceptibility to pathogens?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I want to stress that I stated Pasteur " supposedly " said " The terrain

> is everything " . Whether he said it or not, I believe it. Autrey

I hope you don't take this as an " attack, " but the terrain cannot

possibly be " everything " because different microbes produce

qualitatively unique symptoms and different microbes will have

differential capacities to produce illness when administered in the

same amounts to organisms with the same terrain. At the same time,

different organisms have differential susceptibility to the same

pathogen at the same dose. So both the microbe and the terrain

contribute to the resultant illness.

I don't understand how anyone can credibly dispute this. Perhaps we

are using different definitions of " everything. " To me, if one says

" the microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything, " this implies that

two organisms with the same terrain will have no difference in their

disease state regardless of their differential exposure to pathogens.

To show otherwise would be to show that the terrain, while not

unimportant, is not " everything. " More broadly, to show that there is

*any* other factor that plays a role in the health and disease state

would show that the terrain is not " everything. "

Put two twin rabbits in two cages with exactly equal diets and

environmental conditions and feed or inject one with E. coli H7:O157

and feed the other a pathogen-free diet. What do you think will

happen?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

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[Guest guest]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:23:19 -0400, " Masterjohn "

<chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>Ora,

>

>> >I agree with you. My original post was referring to what

>> >Pasteur " supposedly " said in his deathbed. I am still convinced that

>> >a " perfect terrain " gives the immune system and other healing systems

>> >of the body the power to inactivate or cure pathogenic diseases

>> >without any type of intervention. I am sure there are exceptions, I

>> >can think of a few worst case scenarios. The problem is, how do you

>> >create a perfect terrain? Naturopathy? Autrey

>

>> You can't. It has to do with genes.

>

>There isn't any single biological thing whatsoever that doesn't have

>to do with genes. How do you conclude from this that one cannot

>modify one's susceptibility to pathogens?

>

>Chris

I am sure that one can MODIFY their susceptilibility to pathogens but a perfect

terrain could not exist because there are too many genes which influence health.

I am one of those people who rarely get sick and when I do I recover quickly.

But something is going to get me someday.

Ora

[Guest guest]

Ora,

> I am sure that one can MODIFY their susceptilibility to pathogens but a

perfect

> terrain could not exist because there are too many genes which influence

health.

> I am one of those people who rarely get sick and when I do I recover quickly.

> But something is going to get me someday.

I don't really see what you're saying about genes. But I think you're

hinting a more important point, which is that there is no such thing

as perfection in biology. Any benefit with respect to x has a y with

respect to which it is a cost.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com