Re: Re: diet opinions

[Guest guest]

Keen,

The naturopaths in South Africa are perhaps unaware that meat and

veggies are what we evolved on. How do they propose we lasted

though eons of evolution without grains? How do they propose we

conditioned the body to accept them in recent history (we

haven't, and in fact carbs have recently been identified as

DISEASE-CAUSING)?

Maybe they don't know that a diet of meat and veggies balances

out with no net acidity. Or if one is supplementing with

potassium and magnesium, two primary alkalinizing minerals that

are deficient in most diets, there will be no net acidity. And,

if we were to use more of the historic sea vegetables that

contain these minerals, there would be no net acidity.

Good questions to ask; it oughta take a lot of convoluted logic

on their part to answer them hehe. Maybe naturopaths in South

Africa are pretty backwards then, yes? And in their own field

too, tsk!

Duncan

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 10:40 pm (PDT)

>

> Hi Olif

>

> My husband and I were told we could eat brown rice right from the

> beginning and it didn't seem to hamper our anti-candida regime at all.

>

> Naturopaths in this country (South Africa) don't subscribe to the " no

> carb, only veggies and meat " diet, as they say it is unhealthy and

> causes too much acidity in the system.

>

> Keen

[Guest guest]

" ...in fact carbs have recently been identified as

DISEASE-CAUSING "

Duncan, do you really mean carbs in general, including fruit and potatoes, or

only grain carbs? Can you please point me to an article? I have read that we

have no biological need for carbs, only fat and protein.

What do you think of metabolic typing then?

What about someone with a seemingly fast metabolism who is losing weight on a

meat and veggie diet? Should they, perhaps, just eat more meals per day?

I, too, have looked upon grains as being bad, for the most part, but I do feel

like I have a need for more calories. I can eliminate grains if I am allowed

potatoes, no problem. Then again, maybe this is a false need I am feeling, and I

simply need to get used to a meat and veggies diet.

A friend of mine in the US seeing a naturopath is also allowed grains on the

Candida diet. It isn't isolated only to South Africa. But, then again, look how

backwards our US Food Pyramid is!

Thanks,

Olif

[Guest guest]

Duncan and others,

> To clarify, body acidity does not occur with the meat and vegetables

> diet we evolved on, because the alkaline ash vegetables balance the

> acid ash meat. In modern times we also have alkaline supplements to

> balance any acidity that does occur.

I agree that high-carb foods are not necessary to maintain an

" alkaline " pH, but I disagree with the acid ash/alkaline ash on a more

fundamental level.

I think it is very simplistic to say that the body's pH is dictated by

the balance of acid ash and alkaline ash foods. The body doesn't have

a pH, but has a different ideal pH in each tissue and each tissue has

various regions and compartments, each with their own ideal pH. Some

must be slightly alkaline, some must be incredibly acid. Although I

don't think it would be very meaningful, if you averaged the ideal pH

of each different part of the body by its volume, I would be surprised

if it didn't come out to be quite acid. Remember that some of the

highly acidic parts, like the stomach, are vastly more acid than any

of the alkaline parts are. A pH of 2 is 100,000 times more acidic

than a pH of 7.

More importantly, the body has numerous buffer systems and systems

that are like buffers that carefully regulate the pH of the blood and

other tissues. If you've used buffers before in, for example, a

chemistry lab, you know that they can maintain a pH of a solution

whether something basic (alkaline) or acidic is added.

Most importantly, the superbly health tribespeople and villagers, many

of whom were hunter-gatherers, that were studied by Weston Price the

world over in the 1930s did not have consistently alkaline diets. In

fact, he found that many of them had net acid ash diets, despite their

resistance to tooth decay. He made this presentation on the subject

at a conference discussing theories of tooth decay:

http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/Acid_base_bal.htm

Also, I would like to say that many of the people who have problems

with a " meat and veggies " diet are probably eating too much protein

and too little fat. Anecdotally, many people who try low-carbing find

that they have deficient energy, deficient satiety, or carb cravings,

until they add more fat. Sometimes people *think* they are eating

high-fat at first but don't realize how much fat, especially saturated

animal fat, they need to add because of how much we've been

conditioned culturally as to what constitutes adequate or so-called

(wrongly) " artery-clogging " levels of fat.

Also, protein is metabolized into acidic wastes. If you eat the

protein you need for structural and catalytic purposes, and fat for

your energy, you will not have anything like the type of acidic waste

byproducts that you will have if you are eating more protein than you

need for structural and catalytic purposes and instead eating protein

for energy.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

" Also, I would like to say that many of the people who have problems

with a " meat and veggies " diet are probably eating too much protein

and too little fat. Anecdotally, many people who try low-carbing find

that they have deficient energy, deficient satiety, or carb cravings,

until they add more fat. Sometimes people *think* they are eating

high-fat at first but don't realize how much fat, especially saturated

animal fat, they need to add because of how much we've been

conditioned culturally as to what constitutes adequate or so-called

(wrongly) " artery-clogging " levels of fat. "

Okay, before I decide that I just can't do meat and veggies only, I would like

to try adding more fat to my diet. I need more ideas about how to do this. I

love coconut curries. I also love fatty pork sausage, but I am having a hard

time getting it fatty since making my own. The ground pork I obtain is too lean

for my tastes. I am not ready to get into grinding my own meat. Maybe I can add

coconut oil to my ground pork, or will it all melt out? I snack on nuts, which

don't tide my appetite over for very long at all.

Any other ideas? I have a hard time getting myself to eat meat fats unless they

are ground into the meat, like sausage, or marbled throughout the meat, like

filet mignon. I do have to say that fatty sausage is one of my favorite things

to eat. I don't tolerate eggs either.

Thanks,

Olif

[Guest guest]

>

> Posted by: " Olif " OVanPelt@... olifmary

> Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 10:44 am (PDT)

>

> " ...in fact carbs have recently been identified as

> DISEASE-CAUSING "

>

> Duncan, do you really mean carbs in general, including fruit and

> potatoes, or only grain carbs? Can you please point me to an article?

I mean carbs in the general but the study that I think came out

in May '06 specified potatoes. We know it's just one of the high-

carb problems; the figures with regard to glycation and insulin

desentitisation are almost exactly the same with whole grains as

with potatoes.

Well, we know the high-insulin thing is beyond dispute.

For glycation information try Googling glycation longevity

references

> I have read that we have no biological need for carbs, only fat and

> protein.

Technically true; the body will make carbs out of protein for the

brain cells if it needs to, and protein contains more trace

elements and amino acids carbs as a bonus. This makes it a good

energy storage vehicle generally.

> What do you think of metabolic typing then?

Metabolic typing does not apply to carb overload; the issue

transcends blood type in humans and even many other species.

> What about someone with a seemingly fast metabolism who is losing

> weight on a meat and veggie diet? Should they, perhaps, just eat more

> meals per day?

A lot of veggies are required, and a fair amount of protein.

Nibble all the time if you can. I recommend that my clients use

cold-processed whey; it's a specific anti-wasting tool (Imunocal

is listed as such in the Physician's Desk Reference for

Prescription Drugs) because a whey isolate can have twice the

biological value as meat. Eggs are 1/3 higher than meat; as a

weight gainer they are also pretty good. Conversly, people who

switched to soy protein started to lose muscle mass right away.

> I, too, have looked upon grains as being bad, for the most part, but I

> do feel like I have a need for more calories. I can eliminate grains

> if I am allowed potatoes, no problem. Then again, maybe this is a

> false need I am feeling, and I simply need to get used to a meat and

> veggies diet.

>

> A friend of mine in the US seeing a naturopath is also allowed grains

> on the Candida diet. It isn't isolated only to South Africa. But, then

> again, look how backwards our US Food Pyramid is!

>

> Thanks,

> Olif

>

All you have to consider to know if it's essentially cheating on

your candida diet is, " how fast can this food be fermented? " The

answer is " very fast indeed " -- they make Sake which is Japanese

drink by fermenting whole grain rice for example, and potato

champagne from potatoes etc. etc. You can quickly find out for

yourself by noting the amount of gas you produce within four

hours of eating it.

In my view it slows down the cure by quite a lot, and knowing

that, a naturopath who recommends such food to a candida or bowel

dysbiosis patient looks ill-informed from where I'm sitting

[Guest guest]

Hi. can you tell me what u used for the liver cleanse, i want to try the liver

cleanse and the three day fast?

Alison Lorraine <alisonlorraine@...> wrote:

I have to second this! Several years back, when Candida was really

causing Hell in my life, I was allergic to over 30 foods... wheat,

dairy, fish, soy... even some veggies... then my herbalist put me on

an intensive liver cleanse and three-day fast, and in just days I was

back to being able to eat anything I wanted, including wheat and

everything else.

The liver cleanse was so intense that I spent several days vomiting

and passing out stuff I didn't even know was in there (brilliant green

blobs, etc.), I felt like I was dying, but my herbalist just told me

to hang in... and afterwards, I felt nearly 100% better than I had

just days before.

Alison :-)

> > What happens if we FAST? I am about ready to stop eating all

together. It

> > seems I have a reaction to just about everything!

>

> I think that fasting followed by an elimination diet is a good thing

> if you are reacting to everything. Glutamine might be good to help

> the leaky gut as well.

>

> On the Native Nutrition list, there were many discussions of fasting.

> Particularly helpful might be 's posts. He was once a frequent

> poster on the list and had a great deal of experience with fasting.

> I'd suggest going to onibasu.com, from which you can search the

> archives of that list. To do so, put a check mark in the box

> " Native-Nutrition " and search the archives on the topic.

>

> I did a two-week fast last year that was part water-fast and part

> kefired young coconut juice fast, while taking, on 's advice

> took Dr. Shulze's liver-gallbladder-antiparasite formula and his IF#2

> and IF#1. The IF#2 is to bind up toxins to prevent autointoxication

> while fasting, and the IF#1 is in case you need to " move it along. "

> You should be able to go off the IF's when you begin eating food again

> even if you keep the liver-gallbladder-AP formula, if you decide to go

> that route.

>

> In any case, at some point, I had a bowel movement that resulted in

> the excretion of a bunch of white balls. I figure they were fungus

> balls. I suppose a second guess would be parasite eggs, but I think

> fugus. It was very beneficial to me, although I was unemployed, which

> made it much easier.

>

> Chris

> --

> Dioxins in Animal Foods:

> A Case For Vegetarianism?

> Find Out the Truth:

> http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

On 6/11/06, Olif <OVanPelt@...> wrote:

> Okay, before I decide that I just can't do meat and veggies only, I would like

to try adding more fat to my diet. I need more ideas about how to do this. I

love coconut curries. I also love fatty pork sausage, but I am having a hard

time getting it fatty since making my own. The ground pork I obtain is too lean

for my tastes. I am not ready to get into grinding my own meat. Maybe I can add

coconut oil to my ground pork, or will it all melt out? I snack on nuts, which

don't tide my appetite over for very long at all.

I don't know the first thing about sausage-making, but Idol sure

does. He's not around NN right now, but maybe if you do an

onibasu.com search of Native Nutrition you might find some sausage

advice from -- I'm not sure how many of his secret's he's

revealed on list.

> Any other ideas? I have a hard time getting myself to eat meat fats unless

they are ground into the meat, like sausage, or marbled throughout the meat,

like filet mignon. I do have to say that fatty sausage is one of my favorite

things to eat. I don't tolerate eggs either.

You can add butter onto your steak. I remember one time a few years

ago on NN was telling a guy who was trying low-carbing that he

had to eat more saturated animal fat to get rid of his carb cravings,

and the guy just couldn't figure it out, said he was already eating

tons of fat. One day he came back and said that was totally

right, after putting gobs and gobs of butter on his steak, *then* he

knew he was eating high-fat. LOL.

You could dissolve coconut oil in warm water or tea. I like to

dissolve two tablespoons in warm water with the juice of a quarter

lemon and a quarter teaspoon of salt. Sally Fallon has recommended

this method (the lemon and salt is my addition) to get coconut oil in

as an appetizer to a meal. Start off with less if you aren't used to

high amounts of coconut fat, since everyone has a different toleration

for the medium-chain fats and too much can cause an upset stomach.

Sauces are a good way. Tomato sauce is probably a bad idea on an

anti-candida diet, but if I make meatsauce I find I can add tons of

fat to it, in the form of olive oil, butter (I use ghee or clarified

butter) or palm oil. Any other liquid-type sauce should do. Egg

yolks are high-fat, and if you like smoothies, you can add egg yolks

and additional fat in the form of coconut oil or other oils.

Salads are a good low-carb, high-fat food. Use extra virgin olive oil

on them liberally. You could add bacon, and if you tolerate casein

you could add raw cheese, which is also high-fat.

Unsweetened shredded coconut might be too naturally sugary for an

intensive anti-candida diet, but once you are allowing yourself a

little carb, coconut is both high-fat and is great at absorbing even

more fat if you lightly toast it in a pan a little.

I find that chicken, which I roast with tons of clarified butter all

over and inside it, is good at absorbing more fat when I reheat it.

One caveat: some people don't digest high-fat meals well. If you run

into that problem, bitter vegetables are probably a good bet, or a

supplement with Swedish bitters if you want the expensive but

convenient route.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

> Well, we know the high-insulin thing is beyond dispute.

I agree that too much carb is bad for insulin and clearly the best way

to increase insulin sensitivity with respect to macronutrient

composition, all things being equal, is to eat a low-carb high-fat

diet and the best way to destroy it is to eat a low-fat high-carb

diet, but there are other factors like meal spacing and exercise and

so on. I think that if people spaces their meals properly and didn't

eat carbs at every meal, but only ate one meal a day, or maybe less,

high-carb, and got sufficient exercise, that a moderate intake of

starches would not be a problem. Your thoughts?

> Technically true; the body will make carbs out of protein for the

> brain cells if it needs to, and protein contains more trace

> elements and amino acids carbs as a bonus. This makes it a good

> energy storage vehicle generally.

During fasting and during carb-restriction, the brain uses ketones,

its most efficient fuel. It was long-ago thought that our primary

fuel during fasting was protein or taking glycogenic amino acids from

protein, and thus the expectation that we would only last a couple

weeks fasting. The observation that we lived much longer than this

while fasting poked a whole in this theory, and it was discovered that

fasting induces ketosis, and that ketones, despite their reputation of

" incomplete " burning of fuel, greatly increase the energy efficiency

of the brain and heart. See Ketones: Metabolism's Ugly Duckling in

Nutriton Reviews, I think 2003.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Hi

I can agree that different tissues probably have different pH,

but that will be relevant to the amount of lymph flow. Lymph

should be carrying the toxins out to the keep pace with their

production, or it will be a bit acid. More on that later. Blood

has the same ph - alkaline, and the lymph is supposed to be

around neutral, though some high pH proponents claim alkaline and

doctors claim acid lymph is normal.

If we average those and say lymph pH is neutral, and we know

blood pH is alkaline, we're net alkaline so far. And of course

the cells are alkaline, so we still net the body being alkaline

[Guest guest]

On 6/11/06, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> I can agree that different tissues probably have different pH,

> but that will be relevant to the amount of lymph flow. Lymph

> should be carrying the toxins out to the keep pace with their

> production, or it will be a bit acid. More on that later. Blood

> has the same ph - alkaline, and the lymph is supposed to be

> around neutral, though some high pH proponents claim alkaline and

> doctors claim acid lymph is normal.

>

> If we average those and say lymph pH is neutral, and we know

> blood pH is alkaline, we're net alkaline so far. And of course

> the cells are alkaline, so we still net the body being alkaline

The cytosol is barely alkaline and basically neutral, and specific

compounds within the cells are much more acidic. For example, the

lysosomes are around 5, which is nearly 100 times more acidic than the

cytosol. The skin is mildly acid, and you're leaving out the stomach,

which is vastly more acid than anything in the body is alkaline.

Either way, it's pretty simplistic to assume that a net acid ash diet

would make tissues that should be basic be acid instead. That assumes

an unwarranted degree of passivity of the body.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

" Either way, it's pretty simplistic to assume that a net acid ash diet

would make tissues that should be basic be acid instead. "

is this why you said that tomatoes probably aren't good on a Candida

diet?

Thanks,

Olif

[Guest guest]

Just because they think differently to how you think, Duncan, do you

think you should be calling them backwards?

That's extremely arrogant.

When I asked one naturopath about why most American anti-candida diets

do not include unrefined carbs, he said it is because you need to have

the people understand that it is only unrefined carbs that you can eat.

He said that probably, it was easier for the Americans to simply say no

carbs at all, but that it was unhealthy.

I would prefer to listen to those around me who have cured scores of

South Africans from candida, leaky gut and IBS. Perhaps the disease

differs in different countries because of the different kinds of food

eaten in different countries.

I'd have thought that naturopaths get enough flak from normal doctors

that they shouldn't be fighting with each other as well.

Keen

Re: Re: diet opinions

Keen,

The naturopaths in South Africa are perhaps unaware that meat and

veggies are what we evolved on. How do they propose we lasted

though eons of evolution without grains? How do they propose we

conditioned the body to accept them in recent history (we

haven't, and in fact carbs have recently been identified as

DISEASE-CAUSING)?

Maybe they don't know that a diet of meat and veggies balances

out with no net acidity. Or if one is supplementing with

potassium and magnesium, two primary alkalinizing minerals that

are deficient in most diets, there will be no net acidity. And,

if we were to use more of the historic sea vegetables that

contain these minerals, there would be no net acidity.

Good questions to ask; it oughta take a lot of convoluted logic

on their part to answer them hehe. Maybe naturopaths in South

Africa are pretty backwards then, yes? And in their own field

too, tsk!

Duncan

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 10:40 pm (PDT)

>

> Hi Olif

>

> My husband and I were told we could eat brown rice right from the

> beginning and it didn't seem to hamper our anti-candida regime at all.

>

> Naturopaths in this country (South Africa) don't subscribe to the " no

> carb, only veggies and meat " diet, as they say it is unhealthy and

> causes too much acidity in the system.

>

> Keen

[Guest guest]

Hi Olif

I can't be of any help in the fat area, as my husband and I are desperately

allergic to animal fats (due to IBS) and can't eat any animal fat of any kind.

This is why we eat only chicken or turkey breast. We also can't eat nuts or

seeds, due to the fat content.

But, you could try buying lard to cook with, instead of oils. That would be an

easy way to add fat to your diet.

Keen

Re: Re: diet opinions

" Also, I would like to say that many of the people who have problems

with a " meat and veggies " diet are probably eating too much protein

and too little fat. Anecdotally, many people who try low-carbing find

that they have deficient energy, deficient satiety, or carb cravings,

until they add more fat. Sometimes people *think* they are eating

high-fat at first but don't realize how much fat, especially saturated

animal fat, they need to add because of how much we've been

conditioned culturally as to what constitutes adequate or so-called

(wrongly) " artery-clogging " levels of fat. "

Okay, before I decide that I just can't do meat and veggies only, I would like

to try adding more fat to my diet. I need more ideas about how to do this. I

love coconut curries. I also love fatty pork sausage, but I am having a hard

time getting it fatty since making my own. The ground pork I obtain is too lean

for my tastes. I am not ready to get into grinding my own meat. Maybe I can add

coconut oil to my ground pork, or will it all melt out? I snack on nuts, which

don't tide my appetite over for very long at all.

Any other ideas? I have a hard time getting myself to eat meat fats unless they

are ground into the meat, like sausage, or marbled throughout the meat, like

filet mignon. I do have to say that fatty sausage is one of my favorite things

to eat. I don't tolerate eggs either.

Thanks,

Olif

[Guest guest]

" I can't be of any help in the fat area, as my husband and I are desperately

allergic to animal fats (due to IBS) and can't eat any animal fat of any kind.

This is why we eat only chicken or turkey breast. We also can't eat nuts or

seeds, due to the fat content. "

Keen, you might want to look into a book called Restoring Your Digestive Health

by Jordan Rubin. I haven't tried his protocol, because it calls for a broth

fast. I don't have IBS, just probably leaky gut with all my food sensitivities.

He also has you adding goat yogurt after the fast, and I can't tolerate any

dairy. This is for good bacteria and can be substituted with something else. His

supplements are expensive, too, but he does tell you some that you can do

without if you are on a tight budget, and I am sure you can find cheaper

substitutes for the others. You don't have to use his line of supplements

(Garden of Life).

-Olif

[Guest guest]

On 6/11/06, Olif <OVanPelt@...> wrote:

> " Either way, it's pretty simplistic to assume that a net acid ash diet

> would make tissues that should be basic be acid instead. "

> is this why you said that tomatoes probably aren't good on a Candida

diet?

Olif, no I just meant that tomato sauce might have too many carbs for

an intensive anti-candida diet. If you are using tomato sauce though,

it can absorb a lot of fat.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:23 pm (PDT)

>

> Just because they think differently to how you think, Duncan, do you

> think you should be calling them backwards?

>

> That's extremely arrogant.

It's not that they think differently. They are backwards to both

practice and research.

> When I asked one naturopath about why most American anti-candida diets

> do not include unrefined carbs, he said it is because you need to have

> the people understand that it is only unrefined carbs that you can

> eat. He said that probably, it was easier for the Americans to simply

> say no carbs at all, but that it was unhealthy.

I don't care how much whole rice you eat, but I have to point out

that it is what brewers ferment to make alcohol. Candida perks up

about as fast as brewers yeast does on it. Having a little bran

jacket on the rice makes no difference; the organisms get in

anyway.

If the naturopaths you're talking about think Americans are

saying no carbs at all, they would indeed be backwards

seriously, nobody mentioned a no-carb diet as being a solution,

and in fact a protein (with its natural fats) and veggie diet is

about as optimal a diet as one could have, including providing

adequate carbohydrate. Perhaps the naturopaths aren't counting

the carbs in the rest of the veggies.

> I would prefer to listen to those around me who have cured scores of

> South Africans from candida, leaky gut and IBS. Perhaps the disease

> differs in different countries because of the different kinds of food

> eaten in different countries.

I respect your decision for yourelf, and I agree that the

incidence of candida, IBS, IBD and one outcome, leaky gut, relies

on what one eats.

The key though is whether the food one eats is deficient in

fodder for the probiotic bacterial culture. I mean, it's about

inulin deficiency. Inulin is the most common carbohydrate after

starch, and a deficiency leads to dysbiosis and candida. Point it

that this kind of deficiency can be seen in many cultures because

the commercial crops, as varied as they are, no longer contain as

many of the high-inulin foods that were historically used.

I can see why my doctor says candidiasis is very common.

> I'd have thought that naturopaths get enough flak from normal doctors

> that they shouldn't be fighting with each other as well.

>

> Keen

If you look at the research they apparently missed you'd see for

yourself that whole rice is a very fast fermentable. Just an FYI;

people suspected of having bowel dysbiosis should know if they

can take it or not; the gas will tell them.

Duncan

[Guest guest]

" If you look at the research they apparently missed you'd see for

yourself that whole rice is a very fast fermentable. "

This might explain why I cannot tolerate whole, brown rice but seem to do fine

with white. Would that possibly be another indication of a Candida infection?

Thanks,

Olif...still trying to figure out if I have a Candida problem

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: diet opinions

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:23 pm (PDT)

>

> Just because they think differently to how you think, Duncan, do you

> think you should be calling them backwards?

>

> That's extremely arrogant.

<<It's not that they think differently. They are backwards to both

practice and research.>>

And you can prove what you say how? I have been treated, as have

millions of South Africans who have gotten better and become healthier,

but you are convinced that they are backwards? That is extreme

arrogance.

I can see that you are someone with a very black and white view of the

world. Your way or the highway, isn't that the American phrase?

> When I asked one naturopath about why most American anti-candida diets

> do not include unrefined carbs, he said it is because you need to have

> the people understand that it is only unrefined carbs that you can

> eat. He said that probably, it was easier for the Americans to simply

> say no carbs at all, but that it was unhealthy.

<<I don't care how much whole rice you eat, but I have to point out

that it is what brewers ferment to make alcohol. Candida perks up

about as fast as brewers yeast does on it. Having a little bran

jacket on the rice makes no difference; the organisms get in

anyway.

If the naturopaths you're talking about think Americans are

saying no carbs at all, they would indeed be backwards

seriously, nobody mentioned a no-carb diet as being a solution,

and in fact a protein (with its natural fats) and veggie diet is

about as optimal a diet as one could have, including providing

adequate carbohydrate. Perhaps the naturopaths aren't counting

the carbs in the rest of the veggies.>>

And it was pointed out that, in order to have enough nutrition, you must

eat a fairly high fat diet, no? Since my husband and I are unable to

touch animal fat in any form, what would you suggest we eat? We can't

eat nuts or seeds either, the only fats we can handle are extra virgin

olive oil and avocado. My husband dropped to 57kg and was going further

and further down until he picked up the amount of rice he was eating.

Our candida is nearly gone, despite the eating of brown rice. Our

biggest problems remain leaky gut and IBS. If you have read about leaky

gut, animal fat is a no-no.

I think I would rather follow what my own body says than what any health

practitioner says.

> I would prefer to listen to those around me who have cured scores of

> South Africans from candida, leaky gut and IBS. Perhaps the disease

> differs in different countries because of the different kinds of food

> eaten in different countries.

<<I respect your decision for yourelf, and I agree that the

incidence of candida, IBS, IBD and one outcome, leaky gut, relies

on what one eats.

The key though is whether the food one eats is deficient in

fodder for the probiotic bacterial culture. I mean, it's about

inulin deficiency. Inulin is the most common carbohydrate after

starch, and a deficiency leads to dysbiosis and candida. Point it

that this kind of deficiency can be seen in many cultures because

the commercial crops, as varied as they are, no longer contain as

many of the high-inulin foods that were historically used.

I can see why my doctor says candidiasis is very common.>>

Inulin is not a problem for us, our diet is very high in onions, cooked

and raw. One of the few foods we have no problems with.

> I'd have thought that naturopaths get enough flak from normal doctors

> that they shouldn't be fighting with each other as well.

>

> Keen

<<If you look at the research they apparently missed you'd see for

yourself that whole rice is a very fast fermentable. Just an FYI;

people suspected of having bowel dysbiosis should know if they

can take it or not; the gas will tell them.

Duncan>>

Given all the different health problems we have, of which candida is the

least difficult, brown rice and veggies have been very good to us. The

difference in how we felt before we changed our diet and how we feel now

is immense. We have a huge problem with our leaky gut and food

sensitivities. Brown rice has been soothing, and has been one of our

best friends.

Besides, we mostly follow the diet in The Yeast Connection and they say

that rice is fine in stage 2, as is potatoes (although not too many).

I've found their diet to be very good, and very helpful. It is based on

allergic reactions to food and what your immune system can handle.

With all the research I have done on the internet regarding candida, IBS

and leaky gut, the one thing I have realised is that there are many

different opinions out there. Some say you can eat one food, some

disagree. I have taken the road of trying things out, and letting my

body decide what it can handle and what it can't. That seems the most

common sense approach. Each person is different, each body reacts

differently.

I want to ask you a question Duncan - have you ever had candida, leaky

gut or IBS? I know you are a health practitioner, a naturopath? Do you

have personal experience of these diseases or just experience treating

your patients?

Keen

[Guest guest]

Hi Olif

I haven't seen his supplements selling here.

I think I'll stick with what I'm doing for now, it has taken me 8 months to get

to a diet and supplement mix that suits my and my husband's bodies. I'd rather

not mess with it now, but thanks for the suggestion.

Keen

Re: Re: diet opinions

" I can't be of any help in the fat area, as my husband and I are desperately

allergic to animal fats (due to IBS) and can't eat any animal fat of any kind.

This is why we eat only chicken or turkey breast. We also can't eat nuts or

seeds, due to the fat content. "

Keen, you might want to look into a book called Restoring Your Digestive Health

by Jordan Rubin. I haven't tried his protocol, because it calls for a broth

fast. I don't have IBS, just probably leaky gut with all my food sensitivities.

He also has you adding goat yogurt after the fast, and I can't tolerate any

dairy. This is for good bacteria and can be substituted with something else. His

supplements are expensive, too, but he does tell you some that you can do

without if you are on a tight budget, and I am sure you can find cheaper

substitutes for the others. You don't have to use his line of supplements

(Garden of Life).

-Olif

[Guest guest]

> Posted by: " Olif " OVanPelt@... olifmary

> Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:39 pm (PDT)

>

> " If you look at the research they apparently missed you'd see for

> yourself that whole rice is a very fast fermentable. "

>

> This might explain why I cannot tolerate whole, brown rice but seem to

> do fine with white. Would that possibly be another indication of a

> Candida infection?

>

> Thanks,

> Olif...still trying to figure out if I have a Candida problem

Olif, NO..... don't eat white rice! Rice, regardless if it brown

or white, in its jacket or straight off the stalk, is quickly

fermented by yeast, pathogenic organisms and candida. Anything

made of grain is quickly fermented. Bread is as quick as rice or

potatoes, and corn, whether it's still on the cob, ground up and

made into tortillas, corn pone or nachos, is also fermented

quickly. Puddings and gravies too, sadly. As a rule of thumb --

if it's carb-heavy, those carbs are easily fermented.

The exception is inulin, a carb in the diet that is fermented not

by yeast and candida but by probiotic organisms that control

these pathogens and others.

Duncan

[Guest guest]

" Olif, NO..... don't eat white rice! "

I am not now, since following the Candida diet. Would a digestive intolerance to

brown rice but a tolerance to white rice indicate a Candida infection, or does

it possibly only indicate digestive problems?

Thanks

Olif

[Guest guest]

>

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:29 pm (PDT)

> I can see that you are someone with a very black and white view of the

> world. Your way or the highway, isn't that the American phrase?

I'm Canadian so I'll ignore your comment. I pointed out

intenational research that is available to anyone from any

country. If naturopaths from South Africa choose to ignore a

substantial body of work in their own field, it's not really my

concern.

> And it was pointed out that, in order to have enough nutrition, you

> must eat a fairly high fat diet, no?

I wouldn't use the term " high-fat " but yes, saturated fats are

used in a higher quantity than unsaturated fats. Also,

unsaturated fats, not saturated fats, are implicated in

atheroscleosis.

> Since my husband and I are

> unable to touch animal fat in any form, what would you suggest we eat?

Coconut oil should be your first choice. It's almost completely

free of the inflammatory omega-6 oil that you get from nearly any

other plant source. You can use palm oil too although it contains

9% (omega-6) linoleic acid.

> We can't eat nuts or seeds either,

Good move; nuts and seeds are chock-full of hugely inflammatory

omega-6 fatty acids.

> the only fats we can handle are

> extra virgin olive oil and avocado.

Olive oil, considered the " best " pourable oil, still has ten

times the lipid peroxidation potential as coconut oil. For more

information on food oils and coconut oil try this page, which

contains a chart that compares several of them.

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/coconut-oil.html#references

> My husband dropped to 57kg and

> was going further and further down until he picked up the amount of

> rice he was eating.

The kind of weight one gains with carbs is not quality lean

tissue, it's fat and water. Maybe your huband would be better off

gaining weight using something that produces and maintains lean

tissue and internal organs. Just a thought ;0) - after all, this

IS a candida list.

> Our candida is nearly gone, despite the eating of brown rice. Our

> biggest problems remain leaky gut and IBS. If you have read about

> leaky gut, animal fat is a no-no.

That's not at all true; I have written about and treated leaky

gut for years, and I know that animal fat is a preferred food for

humans. Essential even in the case of the omega-3 essential fatty

acids. If you're limiting your omega-3's to almost nothing you

are courting disaster.

> I think I would rather follow what my own body says than what any

> health practitioner says.

Good on you that you're self-reliant, but I would caution that

people who listen to their bodies rather than a health

practitioner often select high-carb because due to their disease

condition they feel better from the glucose rush. Of course,

naturopaths in South Africa allow this, probably in order to be

seen giving more popular advice.

> Inulin is not a problem for us, our diet is very high in onions,

> cooked and raw. One of the few foods we have no problems with.

Nicely done. Inulin is a lifesaver to people with bowel

disorders.

> Given all the different health problems we have, of which candida is

> the least difficult, brown rice and veggies have been very good to us.

> The difference in how we felt before we changed our diet and how we

> feel now is immense. We have a huge problem with our leaky gut and

> food sensitivities. Brown rice has been soothing, and has been one of

> our best friends.

>

> Besides, we mostly follow the diet in The Yeast Connection and they

> say that rice is fine in stage 2, as is potatoes (although not too

> many). I've found their diet to be very good, and very helpful. It is

> based on allergic reactions to food and what your immune system can

> handle.

Sure, if " they " write it in a book it must be right. Sounds like

literalism. What if other books were to point out the fallacy of

the approach?

> With all the research I have done on the internet regarding candida,

> IBS and leaky gut, the one thing I have realised is that there are

> many different opinions out there. Some say you can eat one food,

> some disagree. I have taken the road of trying things out, and

> letting my body decide what it can handle and what it can't. That

> seems the most common sense approach. Each person is different, each

> body reacts differently.

The concept that eveyone reacts differently does not address the

question, why? And when you look at the component of bowel health

you find thast everyone does not react differently; composter is

composter, and the correct range is fairly narrow no matter where

you live.

> I want to ask you a question Duncan - have you ever had candida, leaky

> gut or IBS?

> I know you are a health practitioner, a naturopath? Do

> you have personal experience of these diseases or just experience

> treating your patients?

I don't have bowel disease but I have the personal experience

gained in a one-to-many relationship with a bit fewer than 900

patients with bowel disorders. I think it carries more weight

than a couple of subjective experiences.

I oiginally did join this list to learn, and with what I've

learned I don't think I'll follow the lead of South African

naturopaths and recommend brown rice to my bowel disease clients.

Duncan

[Guest guest]

" I don't have bowel disease but I have the personal experience

gained in a one-to-many relationship with a bit fewer than 900

patients with bowel disorders. "

Duncan, can you tell me anything about diverticula or point me to some good

quality info? Is it in any way related to Candida? My mom was diagnosed with

this almost 20 years ago. She does well on Atkins, but unfortunately never

sticks with it for long.

As she is getting older (mid-50s), she is starting to have osteoarthritis and a

ruptured disk pressing on her sciatic nerve. I have been urging her to at least

cut gluten, sugar and dairy out of her diet. She has always had a big sweet

tooth. Perhaps a Candida indicator...

Thanks,

Olif

[Guest guest]

On 6/13/06, Olif <OVanPelt@...> wrote:

> I am not now, since following the Candida diet. Would a digestive intolerance

to brown rice but a tolerance to white rice indicate a Candida infection, or

does it possibly only indicate digestive problems?

It could reflect the fact that all whole grains are full of

anti-nutrients and proteins that are specifically designed to resist

digestion and inhibit the digestion of the rest of the grain. Soaking

them in a mildly acidic and warm medium usually ameliorates this by

substantially reducing anti-nutrients and breaking down some of the

proteins. Fermenting, such as in sourdough bread, would presumably be

vastly superior at pre-digesting the digestion-resistant proteins.

Refined grains, although quite definitely not good for you, have the

digestive benefit of having the portions with the anti-nutrients and

digestion-inhibitors removed.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: diet opinions

>

> Posted by: " Keen Venables " kvenables@...

> Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:29 pm (PDT)

> I can see that you are someone with a very black and white view of the

> world. Your way or the highway, isn't that the American phrase?

<<I'm Canadian so I'll ignore your comment. I pointed out

intenational research that is available to anyone from any

country. If naturopaths from South Africa choose to ignore a

substantial body of work in their own field, it's not really my

concern. >>

Sorry, I suppose Americans don't own the market when it comes to

arrogance.

Let's just say that we are not going to agree on this one.

> And it was pointed out that, in order to have enough nutrition, you

> must eat a fairly high fat diet, no?

<<I wouldn't use the term " high-fat " but yes, saturated fats are

used in a higher quantity than unsaturated fats. Also,

unsaturated fats, not saturated fats, are implicated in

atheroscleosis.>>

Well saturated or not, we aren't able to tolerate any animal fats and

only a few of the vegetable ones.

> Since my husband and I are

> unable to touch animal fat in any form, what would you suggest we eat?

<<Coconut oil should be your first choice. It's almost completely

free of the inflammatory omega-6 oil that you get from nearly any

other plant source. You can use palm oil too although it contains

9% (omega-6) linoleic acid.>>

I've not seen coconut oil on sale here, not even at the health shops. I

would only use extra virgin oil, as I read an article about the normal

process that oils go through and it raised the hair on my head! But as

mentioned, I've not seen either palm oil or coconut oil for sale here in

any form.

> We can't eat nuts or seeds either,

<<Good move; nuts and seeds are chock-full of hugely inflammatory

omega-6 fatty acids.>>

Not that it was our choice. Our bodies choose for us.

> the only fats we can handle are

> extra virgin olive oil and avocado.

<<Olive oil, considered the " best " pourable oil, still has ten

times the lipid peroxidation potential as coconut oil. For more

information on food oils and coconut oil try this page, which

contains a chart that compares several of them.

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/coconut-oil.html#references>>

At least we get a good quality extra virgin olive oil, imported from

Italy (it is very, very expensive, but our health is worth it). There

are olive oils for sale here (I don't know about elsewhere) that aren't

really olive oil at all, but are sunflower oil that has been coloured

and flavoured. We had one of those before and it made us very sick.

> My husband dropped to 57kg and

> was going further and further down until he picked up the amount of

> rice he was eating.

<<The kind of weight one gains with carbs is not quality lean

tissue, it's fat and water. Maybe your huband would be better off

gaining weight using something that produces and maintains lean

tissue and internal organs. Just a thought ;0) - after all, this

IS a candida list.>>

He hasn't gained weight at all. He has stopped losing weight, at least.

He works out every morning, so he is starting to put on some muscle - he

has upped his intake of chicken breast to help as well.

> Our candida is nearly gone, despite the eating of brown rice. Our

> biggest problems remain leaky gut and IBS. If you have read about

> leaky gut, animal fat is a no-no.

<<That's not at all true; I have written about and treated leaky

gut for years, and I know that animal fat is a preferred food for

humans. Essential even in the case of the omega-3 essential fatty

acids. If you're limiting your omega-3's to almost nothing you

are courting disaster.>>

Our naturopath put us on Omega 3 supplement from the beginning, so that

isn't a problem. I've read in several places that animal fat is to be

avoided with leaky gut?

> I think I would rather follow what my own body says than what any

> health practitioner says.

<<Good on you that you're self-reliant, but I would caution that

people who listen to their bodies rather than a health

practitioner often select high-carb because due to their disease

condition they feel better from the glucose rush. Of course,

naturopaths in South Africa allow this, probably in order to be

seen giving more popular advice.>>

Even if the naturopath had suggested it to us, and we were ill from it,

we would have stopped. We are doing well on brown rice, which is why we

keep eating it. As previously said, our biggest problems now are our

leaky gut and IBS, and reactions to foods.

> Inulin is not a problem for us, our diet is very high in onions,

> cooked and raw. One of the few foods we have no problems with.

<<Nicely done. Inulin is a lifesaver to people with bowel

disorders.>>

See, I do listen to what you say some of the time. :-)

> Given all the different health problems we have, of which candida is

> the least difficult, brown rice and veggies have been very good to us.

> The difference in how we felt before we changed our diet and how we

> feel now is immense. We have a huge problem with our leaky gut and

> food sensitivities. Brown rice has been soothing, and has been one of

> our best friends.

>

> Besides, we mostly follow the diet in The Yeast Connection and they

> say that rice is fine in stage 2, as is potatoes (although not too

> many). I've found their diet to be very good, and very helpful. It is

> based on allergic reactions to food and what your immune system can

> handle.

<<Sure, if " they " write it in a book it must be right. Sounds like

literalism. What if other books were to point out the fallacy of

the approach?>>

Okay, let me explain what I mean. The book has been very helpful to us

and we have found through experimentation that, if we stick to the diet,

we feel well. If we go off the diet, we feel sick and awful. So, after

many experiments, I stick to the diet in the book.

I am not the sort of person to accept ANYONE'S opinion without testing

it out first.

> With all the research I have done on the internet regarding candida,

> IBS and leaky gut, the one thing I have realised is that there are

> many different opinions out there. Some say you can eat one food,

> some disagree. I have taken the road of trying things out, and

> letting my body decide what it can handle and what it can't. That

> seems the most common sense approach. Each person is different, each

> body reacts differently.

<<The concept that eveyone reacts differently does not address the

question, why? And when you look at the component of bowel health

you find thast everyone does not react differently; composter is

composter, and the correct range is fairly narrow no matter where

you live.>>

So you are saying that everyone's body does not react differently? I'll

disagree with that.

> I want to ask you a question Duncan - have you ever had candida, leaky

> gut or IBS?

> I know you are a health practitioner, a naturopath? Do

> you have personal experience of these diseases or just experience

> treating your patients?

<<I don't have bowel disease but I have the personal experience

gained in a one-to-many relationship with a bit fewer than 900

patients with bowel disorders. I think it carries more weight

than a couple of subjective experiences. >>

I'm not so sure about that. Unless you have experienced it yourself,

you may not understand the mental anguish or the mindset that you get

with the disease. I'm sure you are a very good naturopath, Duncan.

However, much like my first and second naturopaths, I'm going to have to

disagree with some of what you say. After 8 months of this, I'm

starting to understand how our bodies work and what helps and what hurts

our digestive systems. I think I'll stick to what has worked for me,

and only alter it if there is a need.

But thank you for your advice anyway.

<<I oiginally did join this list to learn, and with what I've

learned I don't think I'll follow the lead of South African

naturopaths and recommend brown rice to my bowel disease clients.

Duncan>>

Then it is not a complete loss ;-)

Keen