Re: don't feel comfortable...

[Guest guest]

Group,

I am sorry Joylnn took my post the way she did, I do not think she

is crazy. She is probably a very frightened person. It was not my

attempt to have the last word. But neither do I apologize for

stating my opinion and attempting to counterbalance her rash

statements. Calling a professional and a surgeon incompetent in a

public forum is not a service to anyone...either the patient or this

group. The way this group is set up it is read by people other than

who you see regularly posting and I don't think it is appropriate

for anyone to make rash allegations that can permanantly harm a

reputation.

I am currently set up as the owner of the group and am not

particularly interested in defending myself in a lawsuit. If someone

else would like to take on the role, sing out....'cause here I sit.

I can transfer the ownership with a keystroke.

Please remember that despite several requests that Jolynn turn it

back a notch....she was unable to. It is easy to get cozy here and

forget that even though only a handful of people post regularly this

board is read by many more.

Jolynn unsubscribed after she wrote her last post so it is unlikely

she will see today's posts, but then again two individuals have

subscribed since then. One may be her, or they may be new members

altogether. I really don't know, and neither do you.

I apologize if this conversation has made anyone uncomfortable.

Friends don't let friends post irresponsibly.

Cam

[Guest guest]

Cam, I have mixed feelings about the whole discussion, and while I am very

sorry to have seen Jolynn leave (and told her so by private email), I hope

the whole thing can be a growth experience for the group.

I really came very close to telling her myself that she was being way too

critical, and presuming the motives of others, but decided to soft-pedal it

because she seems so fragile and frazzled, and clearly needed to vent her

frustrations. I also reminded myself that Jolynn is biologically (barely)

young enough to be my daughter or yours.

It is interesting that you brought up the issue of liability/libel, as I

remember it as a pet concern of 's. Being an attorney as well as a

writer I would assume she has some knowledge of the subject, but I can't

help wondering. Wouldn't it be helpful to add a disclaimer to the site, and

perhaps to the individual emails/digests, stating that all opinions are

strictly the responsibility of the individual posting, and are not

necessarily the opinions of the forum owner and moderators? You see this

disclaimer on news/interview-type TV programs. Then again, it might also be

helpful to make clear to the group what constitutes defamation, and to

enunciate a clear policy on how posts/members will be handled when that line

has been crossed. And I'd want a consensus of moderators to agree on any

action, so that no one person is the " heavy " . My feeling about these

particular posts of Jolynn's is that Dr. Rand was not defamed, but Priscilla

probably was. It's one thing to relate a negative experience, and quite

another thing to label a person as " incompetent " or " uncaring " .

I have seriously considered offering to take over the gavel for a while, but

at what may well be 3 months pre-op I feel this is the wrong time to raise

my hand. I do appreciate the position you are in, Cam, and appreciate very

much the combination of freedom and kindness that are the hallmarks of this

forum.

Sharon

[ ] Re: don't feel comfortable...

> Group,

>

> I am sorry Joylnn took my post the way she did, I do not think she

> is crazy. She is probably a very frightened person. It was not my

> attempt to have the last word. But neither do I apologize for

> stating my opinion and attempting to counterbalance her rash

> statements. Calling a professional and a surgeon incompetent in a

> public forum is not a service to anyone...either the patient or this

> group. The way this group is set up it is read by people other than

> who you see regularly posting and I don't think it is appropriate

> for anyone to make rash allegations that can permanantly harm a

> reputation.

>

> I am currently set up as the owner of the group and am not

> particularly interested in defending myself in a lawsuit. If someone

> else would like to take on the role, sing out....'cause here I sit.

> I can transfer the ownership with a keystroke.

>

> Please remember that despite several requests that Jolynn turn it

> back a notch....she was unable to. It is easy to get cozy here and

> forget that even though only a handful of people post regularly this

> board is read by many more.

>

> Jolynn unsubscribed after she wrote her last post so it is unlikely

> she will see today's posts, but then again two individuals have

> subscribed since then. One may be her, or they may be new members

> altogether. I really don't know, and neither do you.

>

> I apologize if this conversation has made anyone uncomfortable.

>

> Friends don't let friends post irresponsibly.

> Cam

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> scoliosis veterans * flatback sufferers * revision candidates

>

[Guest guest]

LOL!

Having been a moderator for many years, I know how difficult it can be

to try to keep the members from veering off into an area which could

potentially be harmful to someone's reputation. I think your tone was

fine, and I think Jolynn will realize that when she's gotten some

distance from her stress.

--

> Friends don't let friends post irresponsibly.

> Cam

>

[Guest guest]

As a fellow site owner type, I'm also going to say that it is very difficult. The rule of thumb I work to is that if someone wants to say their first surgeon, or a physiotherapist they've dealt with or whatever was a raging incompetent, fine as long as they don't name them, or do so only privately in PMs and emails behind the scenes, so that it is not part of the public board.

And there's the rule of " I feel " - as long as a person sticks to " I feel that she doesn't care " or " I felt extremely let down by his apparent attitude " or whatever, it's not a direct slur, and that makes all the difference. It can be extremely tough for various reasons, and unfortunately in this litigious world unless you have a large body behind you, providing you / the forum with indemnification, you do sometimes have to take steps to defend yourself.

Of course, published rules of conduct and disclaimers may help prevent this kind of issue, but they also make a place feel less welcoming. The other problem is that the whole thing is a learning experience, and it is only as problems arise that you are able to work out how to deal with them - it is difficult to pre-empt them without running the risk of becoming rulebound and paranoid, and losing the atmosphere of support that is what is so needed. A long list of rules may even drive away those who most need support because they feel they may not be able to talk freely, but of course the other side is that without those rules some people will take deliberate advantage in order to stir things up (a reference purely to experience at my own forums) and others will feel that they have been put upon by the sudden imposition and see it as an attack when it is unfortunately just that the need for those rules, or guidance and suggestions has only been realised through them.

I've appended the Board Rules that we've come up with so far at SSo, and in fact they don't include anything regarding defamation, libel, slander etc, so that is something that I'll have to address specifically in the next revision of them. The first 3 headings have had to be added specifically because of people doing things that they shouldn't, and more particularly being persistent about them - the merchandising and fundraising thing was the worst one so far, because it was so difficult for some members to understand why we couldn't allow it in the form it took.

titch

Merchandising and Fund Raising: We do not allow unsolicited canvassing for any business or money raising venture on this site. If you feel that there is good reason why we would be happy to allow your cause to be publicised and supported, please contact the staff and discuss this with us - we may be able to reach an agreement (the staff currently are titch, sins, ine, chele, tonibunny and jonny - you can contact all staff members with a single PM by using the CC list). However, www.scoliosis-support.org is not in a position to endorse any treatments or services, and all other matters will be at our discretion. While we welcome any offers of assistance, such as poster design or fund raising, we do not endorse promotional merchandise which has not been fully checked and agreed with the staff before production. Distribution of un-endorsed merchandise, whether payment is solicited or not, will result in at least a warning, and further disciplinary action as appropriate. Persistence will result in suspension or even banning. Members are advised not to accept or purchase promotional merchandise from anyone other than staff, unless specific site endorsement has been given and publicised. Specific Rules: Do not send abusive PMs, or email members from the board abusively. Do not spoof your IP address to try to avoid detection. Do not sign up pretending to be someone else Do not share your log-in information (username and password) with others. If you want someone to be able to update us and pass our messages on to you when you are in hospital, please ask an admin (titch, Sins, Jonny, Thaleias spirit, tonibunny or ine) to create an account for them in the name that they want. Alternatively, if you've been keeping in touch with a member outside of the board, perhaps you could ask them to be a point of contact and keep us up to date :-) Advertising and Clinical Services We do not allow advertising by clinics or individual practicioners. For example, a yoga teacher who believes they may have had some success in treating scoliosis is welcome to sign up. They are also welcome to advise members and suggest specific exercises to them, member to member, on the board. However, it would not be acceptable for that yoga teacher to canvas for people to sign up to their program. It would be acceptable for someone who has had successful treatment by a chiropractor to explain about this, what method was used etc. This could include a chiropractor speaking of a particular method that has seemed successful and suggesting members seek out a chiropractor who uses that method. It would not be acceptable for that chiropractor to suggest members should come to him/her specifically, or advertise their clinic. If you are in any doubt as to whether what you want to post would violate these rules, contact a member of staff: titch, sins, Jonny, Toni, Thaleias Spirit or ine, and they will be able to advise you. Breaking these rules may see your account moderated, suspended, or in the case of repeated problems banned. General suggestions: Be courteous and considerate of others. To disagree is a part of life, try not to be rude and accept that there are differences of opinion, and we are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. If something you read can be taken in more than one way, try to take it as meaning the more positive possibility - context and inflection can be difficult to judge in text. Try to make your thread titles and descriptions meaningful, it will make it easier for people to search the forums, and may even make getting replies faster. For example, if you give a thread the title " I'm scared " , you could make it clear why by putting " Surgery next week " in the description. Try not to use too many abbreviations or too much txtspk, as not all forum users have english as a first language, and txtspk can be difficult to understand even when you do Most importantly, enjoy your stay :-)

-- " The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom. " - H. L. Mencken

[Guest guest]

Thanks Titch and . It is a tricky thing sometimes to know when

to say " when " and you both have more experience than I. The rules I

have applied so far have not been quite as specific as Titch's group

but...but they are close.

It is a learning experience and I would just say that if someone

wants to post something that a " reasonable person " thought would be

harmful to the reputation of the person at hand....then we have a

problem. Since in the case at hand I had a private email about a

patient feeling Jolynns posts were disturbing to her relationship

with her surgeon...I have to feel she was crossing the line.

The only experience that I have had with the subject of slander and

libel on a message board in the U.S. stems from a message board that

is an internal union communication, members only. Our union has paid

damages as a result of an internal union publication which did not

paint a very attractive picture of a manager. Our legal council

advised us that the same principles applied to the internal message

board. That is good enough for me.

In this case, is not the party making the statements. I am the

listed owner. I assume that means that I would be the first person

someone would attempt a lawsuit with. That doesn't mean they would

prevail, but it means it would be an expensive and time consuming

proposition for me and my family. So I am not taking that chance. I

think Titch's rules on posts by private message are great if someone

needs to say something that goes beyond the normal boundaries of

this group.

I really just wish everyone would just stop for a second and re-read

their posts before they hit " send " and try to think how an outsider

might take the post. I think it is that simple.

Off to work....2.5 weeks and counting.

Cam

[Guest guest]

Hi Cam, Your point on liability is valid, and not something I was

considering when reading the original posts. I just felt so bad for

Jolynn. Most of her posts immediately before yours had been showing

signs of her doing better: 1-her " to be fair " post, 2-planning and

setting appt w/ Rand before surgery, 3-planning and setting up appt

w/PCP to get RX for depression, 4-giving up on the placard ordeal to

reduce her stress, 5-upbeat birthday wishes for , etc. Your

post, to me, felt like it was going to " slap her back down " ... and it

seems like it did. Fewer words, even telling her about liability

point, might have been just as effective. You certainly have the

right to express your opinions and defend your position regarding this

group and what is posted. As I have said before, I usually love your

posts as they often reflect so many of my own tho'ts, feelings, and

experiences. I look forward to meeting you sometime in the future

(just hope it would be at the gosh-darn National Gathering!)

Sincerely, Marty

--- " cammaltby " <cammaltby@...> wrote: Group, I am sorry Joylnn took

my post the way she did... It was not my attempt to have the last

word. But neither do I apologize for stating my opinion... I am

currently set up as the owner of the group and am not particularly

interested in defending myself in a lawsuit. ...Jolynn unsubscribed

after she wrote her last post so it is unlikely she will see today's

posts... I apologize if this conversation has made anyone

uncomfortable. Friends don't let friends post irresponsibly. Cam

[Guest guest]

Sharon, Good post. Marty

--- " Sharon Green " <sharon.green18@...> wrote: Cam, I have mixed

feelings about the whole discussion, and while I am very

sorry to have seen Jolynn leave (and told her so by private email), I

hope the whole thing can be a growth experience for the group.

[Guest guest]

Hiya Titch, Great post. Important points we all need to know. Thanks,

Marty

--- <oojackapivvy@...> wrote:

As a fellow site owner type, I'm also going to say that it is very

difficult. ...And there's the rule of " I feel " - as long as a person

sticks to " I feel that she doesn't care " or " I felt extremely let down

by his apparent attitude " or whatever, it's not a direct slur, and

that makes all the difference.

[Guest guest]

Hi Cam, That " re-read " before hitting send... so true. Have a good

day! Marty

---<cammaltby@...> wrote: Thanks Titch and . It is a tricky thing

sometimes to know when to say " when " and you both have more experience

than I. ...I really just wish everyone would just stop for a second

and re-read their posts before they hit " send " and try to think how an

outsider might take the post. I think it is that simple... Cam

[Guest guest]

Hi Cam...

Unlike Titch, I think it's a good thing, and helpful to others, to

post about negative experiences. As long as one sticks to the facts,

neither the poster or the list owner, or should be libel.

One simply needs to be careful that no one tries to recruit or

influence others by repeatedly posting on the subject.

Regards,

>

> Thanks Titch and . It is a tricky thing sometimes to know when

> to say " when " and you both have more experience than I. The rules I

> have applied so far have not been quite as specific as Titch's group

> but...but they are close.

>

> It is a learning experience and I would just say that if someone

> wants to post something that a " reasonable person " thought would be

> harmful to the reputation of the person at hand....then we have a

> problem. Since in the case at hand I had a private email about a

> patient feeling Jolynns posts were disturbing to her relationship

> with her surgeon...I have to feel she was crossing the line.

>

> The only experience that I have had with the subject of slander and

> libel on a message board in the U.S. stems from a message board that

> is an internal union communication, members only. Our union has paid

> damages as a result of an internal union publication which did not

> paint a very attractive picture of a manager. Our legal council

> advised us that the same principles applied to the internal message

> board. That is good enough for me.

>

> In this case, is not the party making the statements. I am the

> listed owner. I assume that means that I would be the first person

> someone would attempt a lawsuit with. That doesn't mean they would

> prevail, but it means it would be an expensive and time consuming

> proposition for me and my family. So I am not taking that chance. I

> think Titch's rules on posts by private message are great if someone

> needs to say something that goes beyond the normal boundaries of

> this group.

>

> I really just wish everyone would just stop for a second and re-read

> their posts before they hit " send " and try to think how an outsider

> might take the post. I think it is that simple.

>

> Off to work....2.5 weeks and counting.

> Cam

>

[Guest guest]

Cam and all,

I certainly feel bad that J- felt the need to withdraw. I personally

found this site a great resource, learning experience and a wonderful

source of emotional support. Who else would have understood my moods,

hunnies moods, reactions etc. What I was afraid of for example though

was and her post. (Sorry to use you as an example ).

She second guessed herself after posting. i say, let's let it ride and

hope J- comes back to join us later.

[Guest guest]

I am sad that J felt it necessary to leave. Even if I don't post that

often, every one of you is like family to me. That being said, I am

proud that this group has had the run it has with no real problems to

mention. I really believe that the group will continue onward,

essentially problem-free.

On the " other " site, I spent a lot of time doing damage control.

There were times that I did little besides be the voice of reason. I

also was very careful to read my posts three or four times (and even

had my wife read a few) before I hit send because of concerns that I

might (gasp) offend someone. The day we can't be ourselves and speak

our minds because someone might take it the wrong way, something's

wrong. We're a long way from that.

>

> Cam and all,

> I certainly feel bad that J- felt the need to withdraw. I personally

> found this site a great resource, learning experience and a

wonderful

> source of emotional support. Who else would have understood my

moods,

> hunnies moods, reactions etc. What I was afraid of for example

though

> was and her post. (Sorry to use you as an example ).

> She second guessed herself after posting. i say, let's let it ride

and

> hope J- comes back to join us later.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Titch, that sounds exactly right, good rules of thumb. I also don't think that complaining to the forum owner behind everyone else's back should be used as a bludgeoning tool. Either a post has gone beyond propriety/infringed upon a rule or law, in the moderators' opinions, or it hasn't.

The only catch for Jolynn was that everyone already knew who her doctor is, so she couldn't rage and seethe about an anonymous figure.

BTW, for the record:

slander is defamation by spoken word,

libel is defamation by written word,

and "liable" means "legally responsible", its auditory similarity to "libel" notwithstanding.

:^)

Sharon

PS: Jolynn told me privately that she didn't leave the group with any hard feelings. I find it a little hard to believe, but I'll take what she says at face value. She needs to concentrate her energies elsewhere. We're still talking about seeing each other in the hospital.

Re: [ ] Re: don't feel comfortable...

I agree with that , what I meant and perhaps left too unsaid is that I have had people coming along raging at their doctor and throwing all sorts of accusations, going well beyond the simple facts of the matter, and in that case, if the doctor has been named, something has to be done about it. As you may remember, a long time ago I did name my first doctor and stuck entirely to the basic facts, back when I thought he was still practising. As I have known for some years that he does not operate any more and there is no need to name him to help protect others, I feel free to say he was a raging incompetent who completely mistreated me both medically and personally and I believe at least part of this on a personal level at least was entirely conscious and deliberate. Of course I'm not about to say that in conjunction with his name ;o) But the point is some people would and do.

Plain facts + name = ok, raging, seething and accusing without name = ok but as the domain owner at my site, I really can't afford people making libellous comments associated with the name of the person in question, as I'm the one who'll get in trouble I can ill afford.

titch-- "The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom." - H. L. Mencken

[Guest guest]

Well said, . Voice of reason. That's you to a T.

:^)

[ ] Re: don't feel comfortable...

I am sad that J felt it necessary to leave. Even if I don't post that

often, every one of you is like family to me. That being said, I am

proud that this group has had the run it has with no real problems to

mention. I really believe that the group will continue onward,

essentially problem-free.

On the " other " site, I spent a lot of time doing damage control.

There were times that I did little besides be the voice of reason. I

also was very careful to read my posts three or four times (and even

had my wife read a few) before I hit send because of concerns that I

might (gasp) offend someone. The day we can't be ourselves and speak

our minds because someone might take it the wrong way, something's

wrong. We're a long way from that.

>

> Cam and all,

> I certainly feel bad that J- felt the need to withdraw. I personally

> found this site a great resource, learning experience and a

wonderful

> source of emotional support. Who else would have understood my

moods,

> hunnies moods, reactions etc. What I was afraid of for example

though

> was and her post. (Sorry to use you as an example ).

> She second guessed herself after posting. i say, let's let it ride

and

> hope J- comes back to join us later.

>

>

scoliosis veterans * flatback sufferers * revision candidates